What is the benefit of taking USMLE vs COMLEX?

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license43 said:
Hey all, a little down the road, but I plan on doing IM, Psych, slightly thinking PMR, but leaning more to IM
Is there a benefit to taking the USMLE vs the COMLEX?

Is the USMLE harder?
My goal is to match a decent program, not a top one.
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Just take the USMLE. On the interview trail I've made a point to ask some DOs about their experience. All of them say to take the USMLE for IM. Some find the COMLEX harder, others find the USMLE harder. Residency directors prefer the USMLE. What my friend did was take the USMLE a few weeks after the COMLEX but studied longer for the USMLE during rotations (his rotations don't have grades based on shelfs. He said he bombed the COMLEX (400-405ish) but did about average on the USMLE so clearly its in your best interest to just take the USMLE 1 & 2 but just take your own PE, CS is garbage. I know its hard, but try to make time for it. Best of luck.
 
Syncrohnize said:
Just take the USMLE. On the interview trail I've made a point to ask some DOs about their experience. All of them say to take the USMLE for IM. Some find the COMLEX harder, others find the USMLE harder. Residency directors prefer the USMLE. What my friend did was take the USMLE a few weeks after the COMLEX but studied longer for the USMLE during rotations (his rotations don't have grades based on shelfs. He said he bombed the COMLEX (400-405ish) but did about average on the USMLE so clearly its in your best interest to just take the USMLE 1 & 2 but just take your own PE, CS is garbage. I know its hard, but try to make time for it. Best of luck.
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Yeah, I wouldn't recommend barely passing the COMLEX, that's a dangerous game to play.

That said, if you're going for IM and you can pass the USMLE by a healthy margin (>215 as demonstrated by the NBMEs), then its in your best interest to take it.
 
hallowmann said:
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend barely passing the COMLEX, that's a dangerous game to play.

That said, if you're going for IM and you can pass the USMLE by a healthy margin (>215 as demonstrated by the NBMEs), then its in your best interest to take it.
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Oh yeah totally, I just meant that with that COMLEX score, he was still able to score respectably on the USMLE.
 
hallowmann said:
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend barely passing the COMLEX, that's a dangerous game to play.

That said, if you're going for IM and you can pass the USMLE by a healthy margin (>215 as demonstrated by the NBMEs), then its in your best interest to take it.
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Whatever score you get on your USMLE will matter more than your COMLEX. I would venture to say a USMLE of 200 w/450 COMLEX is better than a USMLE of 195 and a COMLEX of 650.
 
It's harder, but it's not impossible. As long as you do your due diligence and put in a strong effort, then you'll pass it.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
It's harder, but it's not impossible. As long as you do your due diligence and put in a strong effort, then you'll pass it.
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Yep, per the USMLE website's performance data for 2015-2016, the 1st time pass rate for DOs was 93-94%, just shy of the 96% for MD test takers. Just as a bit of reassurance.
 
license43 said:
how hard is it to get a 215?
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I mean, not that hard? I guess it depends on how you do on standardized exams. 215 is something like 25th percentile of US MD test takers, so its should be doable for most people if they study enough. It should be doable for most people, but you'd want to take NBMEs to see how you're doing.

AlbinoHawk DO said:
Whatever score you get on your USMLE will matter more than your COMLEX. I would venture to say a USMLE of 200 w/450 COMLEX is better than a USMLE of 195 and a COMLEX of 650.
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I mean, I guess, but you start having diminishing returns when you get that low on the USMLE. Most of the same IM programs that'll take that 200 USMLE would probably have taken you with COMLEX only. And then you spent $600 and a day of your life for it.
 
J Senpai said:
Yep, per the USMLE website's performance data for 2015-2016, the 1st time pass rate for DOs was 93-94%, just shy of the 96% for MD test takers. Just as a bit of reassurance.
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Right. I think the issue is that plenty of people don't take it seriously enough. I know ppl who really studied maybe 6-8 hours a day during dedicated for like a few weeks. It won't work out well.
If you legitimately study most of the year on a low key and then hardcore 14-16 hours a day for 4-6 weeks you'll probably have utterly no problem hitting above a 220.
 
J Senpai said:
Yep, per the USMLE website's performance data for 2015-2016, the 1st time pass rate for DOs was 93-94%, just shy of the 96% for MD test takers. Just as a bit of reassurance.
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94% for those that take it. 1/3 of the class doesn't.
 
W19 said:
We see a lot 240s, 250s in this website. People tend to forget that the average in 2016 was 228. Don't think anyone can walk in and score above average on this test.
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I saw a post on this site a year ago or so about how the average for MDs must be higher and the mean is being dragged down by DOs and IMGs. It was a good lol.
 
Ho0v-man said:
I saw a post on this site a year ago or so about how the average for MDs must be higher and the mean is being dragged down by DOs and IMGs. It was a good lol.
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The mean is based on US and Canadian MD student test takers. DOs and other IMGs aren't even included in the calculation. Was that the joke? That's like basic knowledge about the test.
 
hallowmann said:
The mean is based on US and Canadian MD student test takers. DOs and other IMGs aren't even included in the calculation. Was that the joke? That's like basic knowledge about the test.
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Yeah. I know. That’s why it was funny. They assumed the overall numbers must be depressed because of how high the numbers are on SDN.

If we just used SDN for these types of things then I’d assume the 50th percentile mcat is a 34
 
Ho0v-man said:
Yeah. I know. That’s why it was funny. They assumed the overall numbers must be depressed because of how high the numbers are on SDN.

If we just used SDN for these types of things then I’d assume the 50th percentile mcat is a 34
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Yeah, I always found that part hilarious. I remember sitting in a pre-med class, and someone was asking what the 50th percentile was on the MCAT, and I told them it was like a 25, they couldn't believe me. "Everyone gets like a 30/31, right (says the kid who hasn't started studying for it)?" I had to explain that although the mean for MD matriculants was ~30, the mean for overall test takers was 25, meaning the average MD matriculant had a 79th-percentile score.
 
hallowmann said:
Yeah, I always found that part hilarious. I remember sitting in a pre-med class, and someone was asking what the 50th percentile was on the MCAT, and I told them it was like a 25, they couldn't believe me. "Everyone gets like a 30/31, right (says the kid who hasn't started studying for it)?" I had to explain that although the mean for MD matriculants was ~30, the mean for overall test takers was 25, meaning the average MD matriculant had a 79th-percentile score.
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Lol...

Anyone can get into med school until they take the MCAT...
 
license43 said:
Hey all, a little down the road, but I plan on doing IM, Psych, slightly thinking PMR, but leaning more to IM
Is there a benefit to taking the USMLE vs the COMLEX?

Is the USMLE harder?
My goal is to match a decent program, not a top one.
Click to expand...
If you read the Program Director's survey, you will see how many people either accept or don't accept COMLEX for thier programs. This is why people are telling you to take the USMLE. I concur with them.


www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

They are two different exams. COMLEX is addicted to case vignettes, and can be poorly written, at least based upon the comments of SDNers who have taken it. I've taken it several times (faculty are allowed to do that) and it's exactly what we prepare our students for.

From what my students who have taken USMLE have told me, USMLE has longer stems and requires more high level thinking, and seems to really like molecular biology or biochem. Mind you, this is a very small n, so trust what the gestalt is on SDN from test takers here. I, for one, would appreciate the feedback on what's on the exam.

My understanding is that one can pay to take a practice USMLE? Do you have to get your school's permission to do that? Can anyone just sign up to take it? If so, I want to do that! I can get my department Chair to pay for it, too!
 
Goro said:
If you read the Program Director's survey, you will see how many people either accept or don't accept COMLEX for thier programs. This is why people are telling you to take the USMLE. I concur with them.


www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

They are two different exams. COMLEX is addicted to case vignettes, and can be poorly written, at least based upon the comments of SDNers who have taken it. I've taken it several times (faculty are allowed to do that) and it's exactly what we prepare our students for.

From what my students who have taken USMLE have told me, USMLE has longer stems and requires more high level thinking, and seems to really like molecular biology or biochem. Mind you, this is a very small n, so trust what the gestalt is on SDN from test takers here. I, for one, would appreciate the feedback on what's on the exam.

My understanding is that one can pay to take a practice USMLE? Do you have to get your school's permission to do that? Can anyone just sign up to take it? If so, I want to do that! I can get my department Chair to pay for it, too!
Click to expand...
If I remember right, you don't have to provide any credentials or be linked to any specific school to buy a practice test, but I may well have just omitted that time period from my mind. Someone who has taken them more recently could likely speak with more certainty. I mean, consider that there are all these IMGs who finished med school years ago and are now preparing for the USMLE so they can train/work in the US.
 
You have to have registered with the NBME in order to purchase practice tests. Although many people also use UWorld Self-Assessments because they give a score-projection as well as offering explanations to test questions (something you don't get with NBME self-assessments).
 
are you guys talking about step1/comlex 1 or step 2/comlex 2? i thought every DO school requires their students to take comlex 1 and 2 to graduate
 
hallowmann said:
I mean, I guess, but you start having diminishing returns when you get that low on the USMLE. Most of the same IM programs that'll take that 200 USMLE would probably have taken you with COMLEX only. And then you spent $600 and a day of your life for it.
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Well, we just saw a thread not two months ago of someone that failed COMLEX and passed USMLE. I would venture saying that person is in a much better position than without USMLE. At least they can argue that it was the OMM portion that killed their score.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Well, we just saw a thread not two months ago of someone that failed COMLEX and passed USMLE. I would venture saying that person is in a much better position than without USMLE. At least they can argue that it was the OMM portion that killed their score.
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Yeah, but I suppose it could also be argued that if that person focused on the COMLEX, they may have avoided the fail to begin with. Sure having a pass on one is better than just having one fail, but honestly, not having a fail at all, even if that means just having a COMLEX, is arguably better. But who knows, its program dependent.
 
Only take the USMLE if you are 1000% sure you will pass (i.e.: make sure you are scoring 220+ on the NBMEs)
 
Just echoing what others have said. I'd DEFINITELY take the USMLEs along with the COMLEX if you can sufficiently pass based on NBME practice tests. Taking USMLEs make the match process gives you way more options as a DO based on my interview trail this year.
 
hallowmann said:
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend barely passing the COMLEX, that's a dangerous game to play.

That said, if you're going for IM and you can pass the USMLE by a healthy margin (>215 as demonstrated by the NBMEs), then its in your best interest to take it.
Click to expand...
ortnakas said:
Second the above. Definitely take it IF you are confident you will pass/do okay. A 220 will open doors more than an awesome COMLEX, but a solo COMLEX is better than a COMLEX paired with a failure or barely-passed USMLE.
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So I wanted to know, what happens in cases where someone does very well on Step 1 (say >240) and fails COMLEX? Or more generally, what happens when someone does very well on all USMLEs but these are paired with failed COMLEX or barely passed COMLEX? Is COMLEX failure a red flag? Is it negatively highlighted in a student's MSPE despite good performance everywhere else?
 
Lawper said:
So I wanted to know, what happens in cases where someone does very well on Step 1 (say >240) and fails COMLEX? Or more generally, what happens when someone does very well on all USMLEs but these are paired with failed COMLEX or barely passed COMLEX? Is COMLEX failure a red flag? Is it negatively highlighted in a student's MSPE despite good performance everywhere else?
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You can't advance in DO school without passing the COMLEX. You can't get licensed without it. Its definitely a redflag, but having a good USMLE helps a lot and can make it seem like an anomaly, as long as you pass it on retake quickly without an issue.

A barely pass on the COMLEX paired with a good USMLE is perfectly fine. Most ACGME programs will ignore the COMLEX score as long as you passed, so pass is all that's important.

As for MSPEs, it varies by school.
 
Lawper said:
So I wanted to know, what happens in cases where someone does very well on Step 1 (say >240) and fails COMLEX? Or more generally, what happens when someone does very well on all USMLEs but these are paired with failed COMLEX or barely passed COMLEX? Is COMLEX failure a red flag? Is it negatively highlighted in a student's MSPE despite good performance everywhere else?
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I would just like to say that I would find it highly implausible that someone could get >240 on the USMLE and not have sufficient knowledge to pass the COMLEX. I would even say it's dang near impossible unless they tried to fail it. Someone scoring 240 on the USMLE is going to, I'd bet, definitely be scoring >550 on the COMLEX. Probably closer to the 600+ range.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
I wouldn't have taken the usmle then lol XD
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No, you still would b/c I would still convince you to take it. Merry late xmas. 😉

Lawper said:
So I wanted to know, what happens in cases where someone does very well on Step 1 (say >240) and fails COMLEX? Or more generally, what happens when someone does very well on all USMLEs but these are paired with failed COMLEX or barely passed COMLEX? Is COMLEX failure a red flag? Is it negatively highlighted in a student's MSPE despite good performance everywhere else?
Click to expand...
If someone is able to score over 240 but failed the COMLEX, it means that dude/dudette needs to hit Savarese. Yes, COMLEX failure is a huge red flag. It will be noted on your MSPE and you will likely be asked about it during interviews, so don't fail it.
 
If you've been studying for USMLE just fine, I don't see how you can fail COMLEX in the process. In fact, I'd be pretty impressed if you actually pulled that off. It would require a special effort to do well in one but fail the other when both tests you on very similar concepts, with the addition of OMM in the latter.

That's why I don't think it's wise to ask such a question in the first place unless you've actively been shirking away from OMM.
 
shadowlightfox said:
If you've been studying for USMLE just fine, I don't see how you can fail COMLEX in the process. In fact, I'd be pretty impressed if you actually pulled that off. It would require a special effort to do well in one but fail the other when both tests you on very similar concepts, with the addition of OMM in the latter.

That's why I don't think it's wise to ask such a question in the first place unless you've actively been shirking away from OMM.
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Theres also some degree of luck in all of this.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
Theres also some degree of luck in all of this.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

That luck becomes drastically less of a factor if you've genuinely been studying diligently and properly all these times.

First, he needs to focus on getting to the point where luck would be the only thing he has to worry about.
 
“Rocked USMLE and failed COMLEX” is a hypothetical I’ve heard on SDN way more than in real life.

I’ve heard of people doing a lot better on one vs the other (good luck, bad luck, OMM strengths/weaknesses on any given day, the state of the moon, who knows) but I think the 250+ USMLE/399- COMLEX scenario is highly unlikely.
 
kenjixshadow said:
No, you still would b/c I would still convince you to take it. Merry late xmas. 😉


If someone is able to score over 240 but failed the COMLEX, it means that dude/dudette needs to hit Savarese. Yes, COMLEX failure is a huge red flag. It will be noted on your MSPE and you will likely be asked about it during interviews, so don't fail it.
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I could see a situation where the MSPE makes a big deal of the COMLEX and ignores the USMLE. Even if (and especially if) it was a great USMLE score and a low COMLEX, rather than a COMLEX failure.
ortnakas said:
“Rocked USMLE and failed COMLEX” is a hypothetical I’ve heard on SDN way more than in real life.

I’ve heard of people doing a lot better on one vs the other (good luck, bad luck, OMM strengths/weaknesses on any given day, the state of the moon, who knows) but I think the 250+ USMLE/399- COMLEX scenario is highly unlikely.
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Agreed. 250+/399 is unlikely, but I wouldn't necessarily rule out a high USMLE with an average COMLEX. Like maybe a 240/500. So much variability in COMLEX scores. Still unlikely though but possible.

Sent from my [device_name] using SDN mobile
 
NurWollen said:
I could see a situation where the MSPE makes a big deal of the COMLEX and ignores the USMLE. Even if (and especially if) it was a great USMLE score and a low COMLEX, rather than a COMLEX failure.Agreed. 250+/399 is unlikely, but I wouldn't necessarily rule out a high USMLE with an average COMLEX. Like maybe a 240/500. So much variability in COMLEX scores. Still unlikely though but possible.

Sent from my [device_name] using SDN mobile
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Why would MSPE comment on board scores? That’s not what it’s for?
 
ortnakas said:
“Rocked USMLE and failed COMLEX” is a hypothetical I’ve heard on SDN way more than in real life.

I’ve heard of people doing a lot better on one vs the other (good luck, bad luck, OMM strengths/weaknesses on any given day, the state of the moon, who knows) but I think the 250+ USMLE/399- COMLEX scenario is highly unlikely.
Click to expand...

I agree.

This idea all started from the discussion about 2 people: One person failed COMLEX, but passed the USMLE with a score >200. Another got a 230ish score on the USMLE and barely passed the COMLEX with like a 425. Those are a bit more realistic, but still rare scenarios.
 
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