What is the difference between osteopathic and allopathic?

[khemvika]

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[stinkycheese]

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Allopathic = MD, no osteopathic manual manipulation, more likely to specialize

Osteopathic = DO, osteopathic manual manipulation, more likely to do primary care/family practice

 

[Agent999]

Cool I never know that. For some reason I keep thinking osteopathic are doctors of the foot So does it mean that after medical school, if I choose to specialize then I am a MD, but if I choose primary care/family practice then I am a DO?

 

[Sage880]

No, it's a different education. If you go to a Osteopathic school you will be a DO. If you go to a Allopathic school you will be a MD.

I have no idea how the Osteopathic education differs from an MD education though. Except that they spend time with "osteopathic manual manipulation" so I guess their education is literally more "hands on".

 

[Medikit]

MD = Real medicine

DO = Monkey Medicine


Seriously though, they differ very little.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

So does it mean that after medical school, if I choose to specialize then I am a MD, but if I choose primary care/family practice then I am a DO?

Like an earlier poster said, no, you will not be an MD. But you can graduate from an osteopathic school and do an allopathic residency. And if I remember correctly, a good 60% of osteopathic students do this.

Unique philosophy:

In addition to the principles others have mentioned, osteopathic medicine also focuses on treating the person (not just the disease) and using preventive care. Not to say that MDs don't share some of those beliefs (I'm sure many do), but it is supposed to be a big thing for osteopaths.

Also osteopathic schools not only are more likely to focus on primary care, but they also encourage medical practice in underserved communities.

Of course, sometimes the philosophy gets lost when practice comes around. The proportions of osteopaths vs. allopaths in primary care and underserved areas are notably higher, but many osteopathic graduates decide to specialize and do not work in underserved areas.

International practice:

MDs can work in more countries than DOs, but I'm guessing for most people (myself included) that doesn't really matter. There's a list of international DO practice rights somewhere around SDN...

Is there really much of a difference?

In my many discussions with both types of medical doctors, the two types are hard to differentiate in actual practice

As far as education goes, allopathic schools and osteopathic schools are pretty similar. But osteopathic students take OMM and are required to take the COMLEX for the boards as opposed to the USMLE that the allopathic students are required to take (many osteopathic students end up taking the USMLE Step 1 as well)

Hope that helps a little...I'm planning to apply to both allopathic and osteopathic schools in a year or two. Either way you're a physician

PS: You'll get better *osteopathic* info in the pre-osteopathic and osteopathic forums than in this allopathic forum

Edit: One more thing, allopathic medical schools tend to do more research and have more money to do so, but research opportunities are available at many osteopathic schools

 

[subtle1epiphany]

this is a great summary of the differences between osteo and allo. the pre-osteo and osteo forums are great, but be wary of those that lurk under bridges and fall to the extremes of the argument...trolls!!!!

seriously tho, the above post is excellent and gives a great compare/contrast.
the forums are wonderful resources but be sure to do your own investigation and logic checks as with any source as there are legitimate and truthful people and there are others who tend to skew the information more than it should be.

 

[skypilot]

Like an earlier poster said, no, you will not be an MD. But you can graduate from an osteopathic school and do an allopathic residency. And if I remember correctly, a good 60% of osteopathic students do this.

Over 65% of Osteopathic graduates do Allopathic residencies. Osteopathic participation in the Allopathic match has soared in the past 10 years. The main remaining difference is the two initials.

 

[Luck]

So does it mean that after medical school, if I choose to specialize then I am a MD, but if I choose primary care/family practice then I am a DO?

No if you go DO, you remain a DO. You can specialize as a DO in any field of medicine and there are DOs in every field. Go to the following links for more information.
http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/research/articles/decide/DOissues.asp
http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/research/articles/decide/osteoMed.asp

 

[Wrigleyville]

The difference is pretty meaningless. Some of the DO students seem to hype up the manipulation angle, but they pretty much practice medicine the same way as everyone else. Go to the osteo forum to get a better explanation though.

 

[Fermata]

If you didn't know then odds are that you can't tell the difference between them in practice.

 

[khemvika]

Thank you for your replies. I am a new member to this board and was reading some of the messages posted discussing about D.O.'s and M.D.'s. I've heard of M.D. but never of D.O.

I will be starting nursing school in September and I was curious to know if there was a forum discussing infomation relating to medical school and I found it. This forum is pretty interesting to read.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

I've heard of M.D. but never of D.O.

According to research by the American Osteopathic Association, approximately 90% of Americans have no idea what a D.O is, so you're not alone. I don't think I knew anything about osteopathic medicine until I was a junior in college and even at that, it was the myths and unfair stigmas. I know its made some efforts, but the American Osteopathic Association is in major need of an effective awareness campaign

 

[Shinken]

If you go to the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine web site (aka AACOM) you can view or download the College Information Booklet. It contains a brief history of the profession and a description of the curricular content of osteopathic medical schools. It also has stats on every D.O. school in the US, including entrance requirements. Check it out:

http://www.aacom.org/data/cib/index.html

 

[Phil Anthropist]

I've been to the AACOM website on several occasions, but I never ran into that. Thanks for the link Shinken

 

[khemvika]

Thank you for the link.

 

[Agent999]

thanks for the info guys. I guess the keypoints are either way you are a physician and the main difference is the initials.

 

[Seaglass]

Not to be a wet blanket here but there is something else to consider - D.O.'s have a comparably more difficult (and in some specialties next to impossible) time of obtaining competitive allopathic residencies than M.D.'s simply because they are D.O. Is it a bummer? Yeah. But it's still true. It is definitely something that applicants should be aware of.

C

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Not to be a wet blanket here but there is something else to consider - D.O.'s have a comparably more difficult (and in some specialties next to impossible) time of obtaining competitive allopathic residencies than M.D.'s simply because they are D.O. Is it a bummer? Yeah. But it's still true. It is definitely something that applicants should be aware of.

C

This statement is true. For example, for specialties like Radiation Oncology, ENT, or allopathic Dermatology, it is very hard for DOs to match. However, for something like Dermatology, DOs have their own osteopathic programs. But even then, it's still ridiculously competitive.

But as a previous poster mentioned, the osteopathic philosophy is devoted to primary care, so if you're hoping to get a very competitive allopathic specialty, you are probably better off going allopathic in the first place. With other competitive (but not extremely competitive) specialties though, e.g. anesthesia, EM, and even diagnostic radiology, osteopathic graduates have been doing pretty well

 

[Luck]

Not to be a wet blanket here but there is something else to consider - D.O.'s have a comparably more difficult (and in some specialties next to impossible) time of obtaining competitive allopathic residencies than M.D.'s simply because they are D.O. Is it a bummer? Yeah. But it's still true. It is definitely something that applicants should be aware of.

C

If you're looking for surgery, EM, Oby-gyn, radiology, anesthesiology, IM, FP, Peds, PM&R, and most of the other specialties, it is possible and I would say almost certain you can do this as a DO. If you're looking for derm or optho then it might be harder but the DOs have their own residencies so that's a plus.

 

[VentdependenT]

DO's are bone physicians.

I recently matched into bone anesthesiology. I snuck in through a loophole and somehow landed myself the spot at a allopathic hospital. Everyone says I have the healthiest bones...and guess what? So do my patients!

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Congrats Vent!

 

[thackl]

I sounds like DO's do nearly the same stuff we do and have to pass all the same boards to enter MD residencies. I could never get over the drastic difference in entering gpa/mcat for DO and the stigma that comes along with it. Given the choice, I wold always go MD. We can take courses in OMM. Some people really believe in the DO philosophy, but it seems that most enter DO as a back-up to MD when thier score are low.

 

[Luck]

I could never get over the drastic difference in entering gpa/mcat for DO and the stigma that comes along with it.

Average MCAT for accepted students is around a 26 and the average gpa is a 3.3. It is not that drastically different.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

We [allopathic students] can take courses in OMM.

That's interesting...How does that work...your med school offers osteopathic electives? I see you're from Texas...is the OMM through TCOM or something like that? I've heard about post-med school osteopathic opportunities for allopathic grads, but I didn't know that allopathic students could take OMM.

Just curious...

 

[VentdependenT]

GPA and MCAT scores? Who needs to worry about those silly things anymore. All I can think about are outlandish preposterous but highly effective voodoo bone treatments.

 

[Luck]

GPA and MCAT scores? Who needs to worry about those silly things anymore. All I can think about are outlandish preposterous but highly effective voodoo bone treatments.

You crack me up man. Biting away at ignorance through humor. Beautiful.

 

[Shinken]

You crack me up man. Biting away at ignorance through humor. Beautiful.

Humor? Isn't he serious? I'll be starting at an osteopathic school soon and the first thing the admnistration told us to do was to buy a large cauldron (for mixing magic potions) and a rattle for healings. The thing that makes me mad is that the school's administration requires our rattles be purchased at the school's voodoo shop, when I can find rattles for half price on E-Bay.

By the way, my GPA was 0.75 and I didn't take the MCAT. The school waived the MCAT requirement for me because they were having such trouble filling the class (and because my GPA was so high compared to other applicants and therefore they wanted to recruit me heavily).

 

[thackl]

Average MCAT for accepted students is around a 26 and the average gpa is a 3.3. It is not that drastically different.

That's higher than I had heard on here before. The Allo applicants ave. 29/3.65 which is still considerably higher. It's really no big deal to me. The DO's I've met were great and if they take and pass boards and licensing exams, then who cares. MCAT and GPA are only indicatiors since the schools really have nothing else to go on. With that said, I would rather go MD.

For Phil Anthropist, others on here have posted with regard to Summer OMM programs and 4th yr electives on OMM. I'm sure I could find the training in TX if I looked hard enough. Any skill can be learned if one wishes.

 

[Cowboy DO]

That's higher than I had heard on here before. The Allo applicants ave. 29/3.65 which is still considerably higher. It's really no big deal to me. The DO's I've met were great and if they take and pass boards and licensing exams, then who cares. MCAT and GPA are only indicatiors since the schools really have nothing else to go on. With that said, I would rather go MD.

For Phil Anthropist, others on here have posted with regard to Summer OMM programs and 4th yr electives on OMM. I'm sure I could find the training in TX if I looked hard enough. Any skill can be learned if one wishes.

"Nonetheless, osteopathic schools expect a high level of achievement from prospective students and their admissions policies are, by any standards, highly selective. The average GPA and MCAT scores for osteopathic matriculants in 2002 were 3.4 and 25, respectively, as compared to 3.45 and 30 at allopathic schools. However, osteopathic schools put a great deal of emphasis on a candidate's character and life experience, at times valuing personal qualities over academic achievement. A student who demonstrates a strong personal drive to be a doctor but whose grades fall below average admission criteria might have a better shot at acceptance into an osteopathic program than an allopathic program. "

Taken from: Princeton Review http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/research/articles/decide/osteoMed.asp

 

[Wo1verine7DO]

My aunt and 2 uncles are MD's and I go to a DO school. In terms of classes, there are the same exact classes, some professors in the Kansas City area rotate between UMKC, KUmed and my school KCUMB so I doubt that they change their powerpoints between our lecture and their own school's lecture, we have an additional class which Osteopathic manipulation OMM or OMT...its more like a sports medicine class than anything else...or they also call it Neuromusuloskeletal medicine in some places according to our last lecture. If you are FP or Sportsmedicine or PM&R, you'll be most likely to use it to avoid giving pain medication just like any other procedure and its never used alone and safer than what a chiropractor does, but other DO's in IM and other specialties won't use it at all unless they do it on the side for extra money since there is a lack of time. In terms of specialties, a lot of DO's are in anesthesia for some reason, the DO schools want to make everyone believe that they want everyone to go to FP or IM. Another major difference, we have a lot of older people I have a 57 year old, many 30 and 40 year olds...most of these are former EMTs, Nurses, other health care people, Physician assistants, Nursepractitioners who already know they want to return to FP or IM or Rural medical areas...the younger more traditional out of college DO students in my class sometimes prefer to specialize. Another difference, the MCAT scores are under 30 about 26-29 on average and the GPA are around 3.2-3.5 for avg. Finally, we have out own board exams called the COMLEX Step I, II, III, and COMLEX PE (Physical EXam skills) but we also take the USMLE Step I, II to apply for residencies (Some DO programs just require COMLEX only and others like the competitive DO specialties will require both USMLE and COMLEX) and some DO schools such as VCOM @VA Tech will require you to pass both COMLEX and USMLE to graduate..this is just my point of view of my experiences. www.aacomas.org is the website...MSU and Oklahoma state also have DO schools, but they are usually limited to their own states residents.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

For Phil Anthropist, others on here have posted with regard to Summer OMM programs and 4th yr electives on OMM. I'm sure I could find the training in TX if I looked hard enough. Any skill can be learned if one wishes.

Thanks for the follow-up thackl...I'll take a look at those threads

 

[thackl]

"Nonetheless, osteopathic schools expect a high level of achievement from prospective students and their admissions policies are, by any standards, highly selective. The average GPA and MCAT scores for osteopathic matriculants in 2002 were 3.4 and 25, respectively, as compared to 3.45 and 30 at allopathic schools. However, osteopathic schools put a great deal of emphasis on a candidate's character and life experience, at times valuing personal qualities over academic achievement. A student who demonstrates a strong personal drive to be a doctor but whose grades fall below average admission criteria might have a better shot at acceptance into an osteopathic program than an allopathic program. "

Taken from: Princeton Review http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/research/articles/decide/osteoMed.asp

Great points. You have to look no further than SDN to find the perfect example in Kim Higgins. She bombed out the MCAT, but worked hard and was in it for all the right reasons. She wasn't only accepted, but accepted EDP!

You certainly don't have to be a genious to get through med school (average and hard working will do) and I'm glad there is an outlet for all the hard working, dedicated individuals who may (or may not) have a statistical blemish on thier applications. I'd rather be treated by a Dr. that got a 22 on the MCAT, but is excited and interested in what they do rather than a 39 who is in it for the lifestyle and money. It is like a second chance to proove your dedication to medicine. I've even know students with good stats who chose DO because they liked the schools better. I've heard great things. Regardless, there is still a stigma that leads to all these pre-allo posts such as: "I f&*ked the MCAT; should I go DO, Carrib or retake?" All things equal, I go MD.

 

[Luck]

Great points. You have to look no further than SDN to find the perfect example in Kim Higgins. She bombed out the MCAT, but worked hard and was in it for all the right reasons. She wasn't only accepted, but accepted EDP!

You certainly don't have to be a genious to get through med school (average and hard working will do) and I'm glad there is an outlet for all the hard working, dedicated individuals who may (or may not) have a statistical blemish on thier applications. I'd rather be treated by a Dr. that got a 22 on the MCAT, but is excited and interested in what they do rather than a 39 who is in it for the lifestyle and money. It is like a second chance to proove your dedication to medicine. I've even know students with good stats who chose DO because they liked the schools better. I've heard great things. Regardless, there is still a stigma that leads to all these pre-allo posts such as: "I f&*ked the MCAT; should I go DO, Carrib or retake?" All things equal, I go MD.

All things being equal, I'd go DO. To each their own.

 

[1viking]

I'm really excited to be a bone doctor! My school even has a ceremony where we get our potions and cauldrons (I think they call it White Coat???). If only I didn't have to spend so much on the stupid spell book!
There are many DO schools that are new (last 5-10 years), but they usually spur off of their "parent" school. For this, I think the averages are lower. My schools average is a 3.5 27--not too different from TX or private schools. Don't try to say that a 30 and 27 are very diff--1 point per section could easily be one question per section, if you were on the high end of the ranges.
BTW, if you reallly want a good read that will completely sell you on the DO philosophy, check out "Your Healer Within: A Unified Field Theory for Healthcare" by Dr. James and Dr. Rene McGovern. ISBN: 158736199x
Get through the first two or so chapters--you will be glad you did!

 

[thackl]

All things being equal, I'd go DO. To each their own.

You will find sucess and satisfaction in either pursuit.

 

[TweetyPie]

This statement is true. For example, for specialties like Radiation Oncology, ENT, or allopathic Dermatology, it is very hard for DOs to match. However, for something like Dermatology, DOs have their own osteopathic programs. But even then, it's still ridiculously competitive.

But as a previous poster mentioned, the osteopathic philosophy is devoted to primary care, so if you're hoping to get a very competitive allopathic specialty, you are probably better off going allopathic in the first place. With other competitive (but not extremely competitive) specialties though, e.g. anesthesia, EM, and even diagnostic radiology, osteopathic graduates have been doing pretty well

Just in case somebody might be wondering why it might be more difficult for DO's to land spots in some allopathic (M.D) residencies which are generally highly competitive even for the M.D.'s applicants, I submit for comment two prevailing types of ethos:

(1) These competitive allopathic programs are generally smaller with fewer seats thus rarely going unfilled, than compared to, say, Family Practice. Since these are M.D. residencies, I would expect that they would stay loyal to the M.D. students, first. Can't fault them for that.

(2)Stodgy elitist types who control policy and/or selection in these competitive programs who still carry a bias that the D.O. degree is inferior. Back in the day , when they graduated, perhaps there wasn't much available to quantify the quality of a D.O. but that is no longer the case. Once a D.O. scores comparably or even exceeds the score of their M.D. counterpart on the USMLE then that provides unequivical means for quantification.

Aaah, USMLE: The great equalizer.

 

[TweetyPie]

So clearly, if maximizing your chances to specialize in what is inherently competitive even for the M.D.'s, if you have a choice, choose M.D.

The choice gets a little more complex when other things such as location, financial, and family concerns takes on a higher priority to specializing in a competitive field.

 

[TweetyPie]

Some food for thought regarding the disparity between M.D. and D.O. MCAT scores:

Average M.D. school MCAT scores for accepted students is not based on a collective body's predetermination of a minimum score that would ensure minimum competancy. Rather, they have been primarily based on the desired level of prestige of the schools and the present potential of top students, which changes incrementally from year to year.

So based on this premise the fundamental question that must be answered as to whether the D.O. degree should be accepted as being inferior and thereby justifying a stigma, is: is there a bare minimum MCAT score that if not achieved determines that a candidate will not have the competancy to handle medical school classroom studies, clinicals, success on board exams, and success in residency?

I submit that finding this precise minimum score will prove elusive.

However, evidence suggests that it is not an MCAT score of 30. Is it a 27, or is it a 24? What about an 18?

My scores: MCAT 18
USMLE: 220/90

MCAT = excellent predictor....right???

I hope that this post serves to take the edge off those who may be critical toward the D.O. degree compared to the M.D. degree and give confidence to anyone who may lack such due to a less than steller start (yes, the MCAT is just the start)

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Aaah, USMLE: The great equalizer.

Except that in 2002, 30% of osteopaths who took the USMLE for the first time failed it, as compared to 8% of first-time allopaths! And, this is the failure rate for the self-selected group of osteopaths who are self-confident and applying for allopathic residencies (generally the strongest applicants)! Maybe that five point difference in MCAT score and B+ versus A- entering matriculant grade point average actually signifies something. Maybe the 50 studies that show a .7 correlation between the MCAT and USMLE mean something.

And, maybe a bunch of anonymous scores on a bulletin board (where 90+% of people claim to have gotten an above average score on Step I) is less than scientific evidence.

http://www.usmle.org/news/2002perf.htm

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Aaah, USMLE: The great equalizer.

One would hope, but this isn't always the case. "Top tier" schools still seem to have a major advantage in getting their students into programs like allopathic derm. Yale had something like 12 dermatology matches this year. Some US allopathic schools are lucky to get 1 derm match. It's even harder for DOs. Also a DO with a 220 may not be given the same consideration as an MD with a 220 in some allopathic programs. And of course, the same goes for FMGs. Even with equivalent test scores and strong clinicals, they aren't usually on a level plane with their US allopathic colleagues. But there are many US allopathic programs who are very welcoming to strong US osteopathic graduates (and FMGs), just look at a recent osteopathic match (or FMG) list and you'll see what I mean.

Some food for thought regarding the disparity between M.D. and D.O. MCAT scores:

I submit that finding this precise minimum score will prove elusive.

[student with 18 MCAT and 220 USMLE]

I hope that this post serves to take the edge off those who may be critical toward the D.O. degree compared to the M.D. degree and give confidence to anyone who may lack such due to a less than steller start (yes, the MCAT is just the start)

The MCAT serves as a predictor of USMLE success. There will always be high MCAT scorers who may score low or *gasp* not pass their Step 1 on the first try. By that same token, there will be the low MCAT scorer who rocks the Step 1. Both tend to be isolated cases so I wouldn't use either to argue in support/refutation of the MCAT. For example, the person who scored the 18 might have taken the MCAT cold (e.g. compare scores of the first diagnostic MCAT of someone who has taken all the prereqs versus their actual MCAT score. If my memory serves me correctly, I read somewhere on the Examkrackers forum that the first diagnostic score is usually just below a 20.) and studied very hard for the MCAT. Or that person may have developed better study habits. Certainly you don't really believe that the vast majority of applicants with an MCAT score of 18 are equally as likely to pass the Step 1 on the first try as someone who scores a 43. The MCAT does require one to (1) have stamina, (2) understand core concepts, (3) be familiar with a large base of information, (4) think critically, and (5) integrate new information with preexisting knowledge to answer questions. In those respects, the MCAT should be a fairly valid predictor of USMLE success. But as your isolated example shows, this isn't always the case. Correlation does not equal causation, but the correlation coefficient from studies of MCAT/USMLE is quite significant.

Except that in 2002, 30% of osteopaths who took the USMLE for the first time failed it, as compared to 8% of first-time allopaths! And, this is the failure rate for the self-selected group of osteopaths who are self-confident and applying for allopathic residencies (generally the strongest applicants)! Maybe that five point difference in MCAT score and B+ versus A- entering matriculant grade point average actually signifies something. Maybe the 50 studies that show a .7 correlation between the MCAT and USMLE mean something.

http://www.usmle.org/news/2002perf.htm

I think there's more to the story than that though. ALL US allopathic students take the USMLE. They are required to pass it to obtain licensure and some allopathic schools focus their curriculums toward passing the USMLE. Osteopathic students have to pass COMLEX 1-3...I don't know of any that are required to pass the USMLE to graduate. So they have to take the COMLEX 1 and may take the USMLE Step 1 as well. That's 4 tests for DOs seeking allopathic residencies versus 3 tests for allopathic students. Also, some osteopathic schools do require their students to take the USMLE Step 1. I don't know how different the tests are and it would be interesting to see how US allopathic students would do on the COMLEX (minus the OMM of course). You would think that the two tests should be fairly similar, but perhaps this is not the case...anyone who has taken both wish to enlighten us?

I think it would be in most people's interest for this NOT to turn into another ad nauseum, MD vs. DO bashfest. It hasn't progressed to that yet. But the OP was asking for the differences, let's try and keep on topic

Edit:

I suggest we let this thread sink to the bottom, before this turns into an MD vs. DO war. The OP question has been answered, and quite well i think.

Exactly Thank you Cowboy DO...everybody take his advice or else. Don't say I didn't warn ya!

 

[Cowboy DO]

Except that in 2002, 30% of osteopaths who took the USMLE for the first time failed it, as compared to 8% of first-time allopaths! And, this is the failure rate for the self-selected group of osteopaths who are self-confident and applying for allopathic residencies (generally the strongest applicants)!

The above thinking is flawed and has been discussed many times before on this board. Many of us who take the usmle, do so as an after thought. In a "what the he((, I've got nothing to lose" kind of attitude. Its only a few extra hundred dollars. You cant argue that the two are different tests and we are prepared our first two years to pass the comlex, not the usmle.

I suggest we let this thread sink to the bottom, before this turns into an MD vs. DO war. The OP question has been answered, and quite well i think.

 

[TweetyPie]

Your post appears a little antagonistic and will lead to one of those DO vs. MD threads where it was heretofore civil (and I'm not talking about the statistics/studies you have referred to). My post was a reasonable, logical, fair, thorough, and honest treatment of the subject.

Except that in 2002, 30% of osteopaths who took the USMLE for the first time failed it, as compared to 8% of first-time allopaths!

Did I even address this?

And, this is the failure rate for the self-selected group of osteopaths who are self-confident and applying for allopathic residencies (generally the strongest applicants)!

Can you prove that this "self-selected group" is "self-confident" and are "generally the strongest applicants!"? For one who might be contemplating taking Step 1 how would s/he determine if they are a "generally the strong[est] applicant!"? These are rhetorical questions. I believe this particular inclusion in your post is conjecture, and irrelavant to the subject of my post: Disparity between M.D. and D.O. MCAT scores and whether the D.O. degree should be accepted as being inferior and thereby justifying a stigma.

And, this is the failure rate for the self-selected group of osteopaths who are self-confident and applying for allopathic residencies (generally the strongest applicants)! Maybe that five point difference in MCAT score and B+ versus A- entering matriculant grade point average actually signifies something. Maybe the 50 studies that show a .7 correlation between the MCAT and USMLE mean something.

Yes, it does signify something. Who said it didn't I don't think I said anything about this in my post, did I? But here's what that clearly means though: that for every 46 of M.D. students that pass 35 D.O. students pass. The question is what does this statistic signify to you? Are you saying based on this statistic that all D.O.'s cannot achieve minimum competancy to practice medicine and deserve to be stigmatized?

And, maybe a bunch of anonymous scores on a bulletin board (where 90+% of people claim to have gotten an above average score on Step I) is less than scientific evidence.

In quoting the 18 MCAT/220 Step 1 guy, do you not think that I was aware that it was anecdotal? And, do you think I was offering it as evidence to refute the well known 30% Step 1 osteo rate vs. the 8% Allo rate? Do you also think me not capable of realizing that folks may be lying/inflating their scores in this forum? Again, rhetorical.

I thought my post was pretty clear. Everything necessary to come to my conclusion was contained in my post. If anyone thinks I left out any relavant factors that should be included, please let me know.

Again, precisely, my post was about Disparity between M.D. and D.O. MCAT scores and whether the D.O. degree should be accepted as being inferior and thereby justifying a stigma for those who have successfully passed the boards.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Again, precisely, my post was about Disparity between M.D. and D.O. MCAT scores and whether the D.O. degree should be accepted as being inferior and thereby justifying a stigma for those who have successfully passed the boards.

To put it in the simplest terms, I do not understand why the osteopathic degree exists as separate from the M.D. degree. If osteopathic manipulation has therapeutic value and a peer-reviewed body of evidence that supports such value, it should be a part of the curriculum of allopathic education. If it is a vestige of whatever some guy named Still said 100 years ago, it should be axed.

The DO "unique philosophy" of holistic care as a differentiating factor is a joke-- half of the state MD schools have a primary care/preventative care mission statement that reads the same. In a nutshell, the only substantive difference between the two types of schools is the lower MCAT/GPA credentials of the incoming class, and so I think it would be better to standardize on one licensing exam and one common curriculum, and then the issue of stigma would fail to exist.

As long as the average standard for admission to osteopathic schools is substantially below the allopathic standard, and as long as osteopaths have their own separate licensing exam (and those that jump over and take the allopathic one have a less than steallar performance history), there will always be a stigma, and given the general competitiveness and tendency towards hierarchy of the medical profession, this will not change.

 

[TweetyPie]

To put it in the simplest terms, I do not understand why the osteopathic degree exists as separate from the M.D. degree. If osteopathic manipulation has therapeutic value and a peer-reviewed body of evidence that supports such value, it should be a part of the curriculum of allopathic education. If it is a vestige of whatever some guy named Still said 100 years ago, it should be axed.

At this point in time, I'm right there with you. Why? There was a greater and more distinct and visable divergence back in the 1800's when Andrew Still disassociated himself with allopathic medical world of the day. Why did he do it? For the same reason you state here: no "therapeutic value and a peer-reviewed body of evidence". Still, was an M.D. and it was the allopaths that were blood-letting and the such. Andrew Still saw that this was not evidence based and rejected it. If you had been there back then I'm sure you would have done the same.

I think an argument can be made about what his alternative philosophy resulted in back in his day. But I would have to say that a distinction in how they actually practiced back then has evolved into more of the philosophy of Osteopathic medicine today.

The DO "unique philosophy" of holistic care as a differentiating factor is a joke-- half of the state MD schools have a primary care/preventative care mission statement that reads the same.

They may use holistic phrases in their statements, and preventive medicine has probably increased in the allopathic world (probably due more to managed care and marketing), but there is a difference. And here's the kicker, a large part of the philosophy of how D.O.'s practice today is not due to the training they receive in medical school. Don't have time to go into it here....

In a nutshell, the only substantive difference between the two types of schools is the lower MCAT/GPA credentials of the incoming class, and so I think it would be better to standardize on one licensing exam and one common curriculum, and then the issue of stigma would fail to exist.

Licensing exam, maybe. The curriculums are pretty near exact but yes, if they dropped the OMM then....but the American Osteopathic Association does not want that to happen neither do many D.O.'s. They like their distinction.

As long as the average standard for admission to osteopathic schools is substantially below

It is lower but I don't think many people would characterize it as substantially below.

....and as long as osteopaths have their own separate licensing exam (and those that jump over and take the allopathic one have a less than steallar performance history) there will always be a stigma, and given the general competitiveness and tendency towards hierarchy of the medical profession, this will not change.

"....less than steallar performance history....": I assume you're referring to the statistic you quoted earlier. If so, I agree. But there is a trend that shows that it is changing as more Osteo schools are graduating more students resulting in more of them pursuing Allopahic residencies.

 

[Cowboy DO]

God I cant believe im even doing this. Im soooo that guy now. Oh well Im not doing anything else.

To put it in the simplest terms, I do not understand why the osteopathic degree exists as separate from the M.D. degree.

There are two dental degrees (DDS and DMD). No one gives a crap about that. They are just in fact Letters, and they all had there day on sesame street, I even know that.

If osteopathic manipulation has therapeutic value and a peer-reviewed body of evidence that supports such value, it should be a part of the curriculum of allopathic education. If it is a vestige of whatever some guy named Still said 100 years ago, it should be axed.

Hey we arent preventing the allopathic society from learning OMM, MD's can take classes if they so wish. Its like saying why do we have a separate branch of health care called Physical therapy, or nursing, cant we just teach all the physicians to do that too, thereby eliminating those professions as well? This is the big reason there are two degrees, and I as an osteopathic student think it will be useful.

The DO "unique philosophy" of holistic care as a differentiating factor is a joke-- half of the state MD schools have a primary care/preventative care mission statement that reads the same.

First of all, thanks for calling it a joke. You cut me deep, you cut me reeeaal deep just now. Remeber medicine is a buisness and we will advertise it however we see fit. Don't take it so personal though, no hard feelings.

In a nutshell, the only substantive difference between the two types of schools is the lower MCAT/GPA credentials of the incoming class, and so I think it would be better to standardize on one licensing exam and one common curriculum, and then the issue of stigma would fail to exist.

I dont completely disagree with you, but it will never happen. As I said medicine is a business and its unlikely one side will ever be able to buy out the other which is what it would take. However I dont see any harm in having two degrees, I dont know why your so obsessed. Do we pose a threat to you? If we didnt I dont see why you'd care, but you posts would leave me to believe you don't think we are a threat. So why do you care? This of course could be due to insecurities (yeah thats right, I went there...Zing)

As long as the average standard for admission to osteopathic schools is substantially below the allopathic standard, and as long as osteopaths have their own separate licensing exam (and those that jump over and take the allopathic one have a less than steallar performance history), there will always be a stigma, and given the general competitiveness and tendency towards hierarchy of the medical profession, this will not change.

Excuse me did you just throw up onto your computer? Oh wait I mean, I disagree. To each his own.

 

[DrMom]

I think the OP has gotten an answer, but in the meantime this conversation is degrading.

As I close this, I refer you all to Lee Burnett's sticky thread from pre-osteo.