What is the trick with these top 20 schools?

[DCSB6]

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I've seen people getting into some fantastic schools with an average GPA (~3.8) / MCAT (~32) and yet there are other students with a 3.9 and a 37 having applied to nearly every top 20 school in the country and getting rejected/waitlisted at all of them.

I don't get the logic here! Is it simply that if you are a standard applicant you should withhold from the top schools unless you have a 39+ MCAT and several first authors??

 

[IlDestriero]

I've seen people getting into some fantastic schools with an average GPA (~3.8) / MCAT (~32) and yet there are other students with a 3.9 and a 37 having applied to nearly every top 20 school in the country and getting rejected/waitlisted at all of them.

I don't get the logic here! Is it simply that if you are a standard applicant you should withhold from the top schools unless you have a 39+ MCAT and several first authors??

It's never been all about the numbers. They just get your application reviewed.

 

[EBTrailRunner]

There's a reason they say med school admissions is a crapshoot. You can have a stellar GPA, MCAT score, solid ECs, etc. and be looked over. At the same time, a less exceptional applicant can be invited to interview because something he wrote in his personal statement struck a chord with the person reading his file. That's why you'll hear people advise against applying too top-heavy.

 

[drshoes]

I only had a 3.9 and 32 MCAT and got into several top 20 medical schools. I don't know what you mean by "standard student" but from the people I've met who get into these schools I've seen how important it is to have extracurricular experiences that not only help you grow and learn more but are experiences that you loved and would do again. A diversity of experiences is also important. You also have to take your application seriously by writing it well and applying early.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's never been all about the numbers. They just get your application reviewed.

This.

 

[kexy]

students with a 3.9 and a 37 having applied to nearly every top 20 school in the country and getting rejected/waitlisted at all of them.

That's me, and I'm certain it's because my EC's are generic, I lack leadership experience, and I haven't demonstrated any real passion for anything I've done. The top 20 schools want to groom future leaders in medicine, and to accomplish that, they need a class full of passionate self-starters. I think that once you get past a GPA/MCAT minimum, your stats become nowhere near as important as your EC's. Fortunately, I do think high stats are enough to save you from mediocre EC's at certain schools--just not at top 20's, who get plenty of high stat applicants with other great accomplishments as well.

 

[LizzyM]

That's me, and I'm certain it's because my EC's are generic, I lack leadership experience, and I haven't demonstrated any real passion for anything I've done. The top 20 schools want to groom future leaders in medicine, and to accomplish that, they need a class full of passionate self-starters. I think that once you get past a GPA/MCAT minimum, your stats become nowhere near as important as your EC's. Fortunately, I do think high stats are enough to save you from mediocre EC's at certain schools--just not at top 20's, who get plenty of high stat applicants with other great accomplishments as well.

^this... and personality at interview time.

 

[deleted357625]

sleep is for the weak when the work aint cheap.

 

[crazypilovee]

^this... and personality at interview time.

hi LizzyM, I was wondering, what would be the cut-off stats to be considered on an equal level as other higher stats applicants based on extracurriculars/personality at a top 20 school? (assuming u're from a top 25 undergrad?) thanks!

 

[Locke3]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this (please direct if not), but now that my life as a pre-med is over, I want to pass the torch by providing holistic application advice for top 25 school applicants.

I've made a survey for those interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dE41d0hfZk1zUTVmUjNSVDJVUzlaZ0E6MQ.

 

[pappadiddy]

That's me, and I'm certain it's because my EC's are generic, I lack leadership experience, and I haven't demonstrated any real passion for anything I've done. The top 20 schools want to groom future leaders in medicine, and to accomplish that, they need a class full of passionate self-starters. I think that once you get past a GPA/MCAT minimum, your stats become nowhere near as important as your EC's. Fortunately, I do think high stats are enough to save you from mediocre EC's at certain schools--just not at top 20's, who get plenty of high stat applicants with other great accomplishments as well.

I really think your PS, your secondaries, your LORs and especially your interviews are the most important factors. Medical schools are looking for people not numbers or who can write the most ECs

 

[Hipster]

That's me, and I'm certain it's because my EC's are generic, I lack leadership experience, and I haven't demonstrated any real passion for anything I've done. The top 20 schools want to groom future leaders in medicine, and to accomplish that, they need a class full of passionate self-starters. I think that once you get past a GPA/MCAT minimum, your stats become nowhere near as important as your EC's. Fortunately, I do think high stats are enough to save you from mediocre EC's at certain schools--just not at top 20's, who get plenty of high stat applicants with other great accomplishments as well.

What do you mean by "future leaders" in medicine? Are you talking about people who are the presidents/founders of clubs at their school, or people who have 3-4 publications and extensive research?

 

[Nymphicus]

What do you mean by "future leaders" in medicine? Are you talking about people who are the presidents/founders of clubs at their school, or people who have 3-4 publications and extensive research?

All of the above and more.

"Clubs" are generally overrated.

Don't miss the forest for the trees. Your abilities and interests, goals and desires should demonstrate themselves THROUGH your extracurriculars. Who you are as a person is what is important, much more than what things you can list off. In this manner, EC's are used as a proxy to determine what kind of person you are.

Top 20 schools have their pick of anybody. Pretty much everybody already has "perfect/satisfactory" numbers. So then it's pick-and-choose time to fill the fairly small classes. This makes it pretty random, especially at this level.

 

[jesse120]

That's me, and I'm certain it's because my EC's are generic, I lack leadership experience, and I haven't demonstrated any real passion for anything I've done. The top 20 schools want to groom future leaders in medicine, and to accomplish that, they need a class full of passionate self-starters. I think that once you get past a GPA/MCAT minimum, your stats become nowhere near as important as your EC's. Fortunately, I do think high stats are enough to save you from mediocre EC's at certain schools--just not at top 20's, who get plenty of high stat applicants with other great accomplishments as well.

+1 that's me as well. I knew I didn't stand much of a chance before I applied but figured maybe one of those competitive schools will see something they like. Luckily, I did receive one interview (Pittsburgh) out of the many top schools I applied to, but whether I'll manage to get off their huge waitlist is a different story. After talking with the other interviewees that day, I wondered how I managed to score an interview there. They were all very impressive candidates. Those guys/gals really stood out from the rest.

 

[kexy]

I really think your PS, your secondaries, your LORs and especially your interviews are the most important factors. Medical schools are looking for people not numbers or who can write the most ECs

Yes, I agree, but I didn't get to the interview stage at most of the top 20 schools I applied to, despite putting enormous effort into my PS and secondaries. I agree that those things are very important, but I don't think they can fully compensate for mediocre EC's/accomplishments.

What do you mean by "future leaders" in medicine? Are you talking about people who are the presidents/founders of clubs at their school, or people who have 3-4 publications and extensive research?

I don't really know how an adcom assesses passion or leadership potential, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Here's an example I can give from my application. Much of my clinical experience comes from providing free health screenings to the underserved urban poor near my undergrad. This experience profoundly affected me and helped confirm my desire to become a physician, and I believe that I wrote convincingly about the importance of this experience in my activity section, PS, and secondaries. That's enough for a lot of schools, but that's not enough for a top 20 school. Top 20 schools want a leader--they want someone who would have responded to that experience by organizing a community health fair, or raising $10,000 for the cause, etc. See the difference?

 

[scarshapedstar]

Much of my clinical experience comes from providing free health screenings to the underserved urban poor near my undergrad. This experience profoundly affected me and helped confirm my desire to become a physician, and I believe that I wrote convincingly about the importance of this experience in my activity section, PS, and secondaries. That's enough for a lot of schools, but that's not enough for a top 20 school. Top 20 schools want a leader--they want someone who would have responded to that experience by organizing a community health fair, or raising $10,000 for the cause, etc. See the difference?

Basically they want someone who can handle wads of money without ever getting their hands dirty - harder than you might think. 😉

 

[Joe the Plumber]

I've seen people getting into some fantastic schools with an average GPA (~3.8) / MCAT (~32) and yet there are other students with a 3.9 and a 37 having applied to nearly every top 20 school in the country and getting rejected/waitlisted at all of them.

I don't get the logic here! Is it simply that if you are a standard applicant you should withhold from the top schools unless you have a 39+ MCAT and several first authors??

urm

 

[LizzyM]

hi LizzyM, I was wondering, what would be the cut-off stats to be considered on an equal level as other higher stats applicants based on extracurriculars/personality at a top 20 school? (assuming u're from a top 25 undergrad?) thanks!

There are three questions and only the first has to do with stats:

Does the applicant have what it takes to succeed academically?

Does the applicant have a passion for medicine?

Is the applicant someone we can stand being around?


What does it take to succeed academically? AAMC has shown that total MCAT score and proportion of students who complete school in 4 years (or 5 years) is linear up to about 25/26 where there is an inflection point and the curve flattens out. It is a little harder to make a prediction based on gpa but we might say that applicants with grades of B or less in all the pre-reqs are going to struggle more in medical school than applicants with gpa of 3.95 or higher. I think that assessing a transcript is more art than science.

Bottom line: someone with a MCAT of 26 and a gpa indicative of an ability to do well in the pre-reqs and an abililty to handle a full-time load and the ability to stick with a program (transcript not littered with Ws) can succeed academically.

On the other hand, top 20 schools do want people who will be leaders in medicine whether in academic settings as physician-scientists, educators, policy advocates, or who will be clinical super-stars. They want people who will do well on the boards, match well, and be employed in desirable positions upon completion of their training. Whereas the plot of passing Step 1 and MCAT flattens out at 25/26 the score on Step 1 plotted against total MCAT is linear all the way up so those top 20 schools who are looking for people who will do well on the boards and match well are going to favor people with high MCATS, not just anyone with an MCAT that is above a specific cut point.

There is no secret formula in terms of activities (thus making it sufficient to check the boxes). The committees look for evidence that one is energetic, productive, charismatic, creative, commuicative, collaborative.

I've seen an adcom go pretty low stats-wise if the applicant is bringing something pretty special to the table in terms of personality and life experiences. These special but low-stat applicants who get an offer to a top 20 school might make up 1-2% of the matriculants, it is a pretty rare situation.