What is Wrong With Aiming High?

[Toutie]

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From my position as an advisor, I get comments from both prospective applicants and their parents, that they only want to be a neurosurgeon or plastics or ortho with a degree from Harvard, Hopkins, Standford, etc. If I could physically throw a bucket of ice cold water on them, I would. I always warn them if you are unable to accept that you maybe a family practice doc in the Des Moinies, then you may want to reconsider this path. I have to go thru the entire litany of hurdles that they must face.

1) At any individual school, there are thousands of applications that must be reduced by at least 80% pre-interview to hundreds of interview slots that further get reduced to a few hundred acceptances to finally a hundred or so matriculating students. Students and parents are shocked, shocked I tell you, that little Johnnie or Jane were rejected from the start.

2) Overall, most people who apply do not get accepted; consider yourself lucky to get any acceptance. BTW, I would say about a 1/3 of the people who contact me for advising are reapplicants who are good to great applicants who applied to Harvard, Standford, Mayo, Hopkins and just other top schools and are shocked, shocked I tell you, that they didnt even get an interview.

100% apply
60% get rejected
20% get a single acceptance
20% get multiple acceptance.

3) Many advisees, most in fact, do not have any real idea of how residencies work and are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out that they cant realistically just go into any specialty they want. When I pull up NRMP data, or program directors survey data, they seem dumbfounded to find that of all the applicants to residencies, only 0.8% get into neurosurgery in 2017.

I want applicants to get into the process with eyes wide open as I have seen the other side of medical school admissions. By that I mean, the bitter 30+ year old who has finally finished residency, has yet to practice an independent day in their life, not any place they expected to be as a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed premed

Stanford. 🙄😛😀

 

[FutureOncologist]

To be fair I made this account totally sold on hem/onc. Now I'm going to pursue a sports medicine fellowship after residency. EDIT: and I made this account in medical school

 

[altblue]

From my position as an advisor, I get comments from both prospective applicants and their parents, that they only want to be a neurosurgeon or plastics or ortho with a degree from Harvard, Hopkins, Standford, etc. If I could physically throw a bucket of ice cold water on them, I would. I always warn them if you are unable to accept that you maybe a family practice doc in the Des Moinies, then you may want to reconsider this path. I have to go thru the entire litany of hurdles that they must face.

1) At any individual school, there are thousands of applications that must be reduced by at least 80% pre-interview to hundreds of interview slots that further get reduced to a few hundred acceptances to finally a hundred or so matriculating students. Students and parents are shocked, shocked I tell you, that little Johnnie or Jane were rejected from the start.

2) Overall, most people who apply do not get accepted; consider yourself lucky to get any acceptance. BTW, I would say about a 1/3 of the people who contact me for advising are reapplicants who are good to great applicants who applied to Harvard, Standford, Mayo, Hopkins and just other top schools and are shocked, shocked I tell you, that they didnt even get an interview.

100% apply
60% get rejected
20% get a single acceptance
20% get multiple acceptance.

3) Many advisees, most in fact, do not have any real idea of how residencies work and are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out that they cant realistically just go into any specialty they want. When I pull up NRMP data, or program directors survey data, they seem dumbfounded to find that of all the applicants to residencies, only 0.8% get into neurosurgery in 2017.

I want applicants to get into the process with eyes wide open as I have seen the other side of medical school admissions. By that I mean, the bitter 30+ year old who has finally finished residency, has yet to practice an independent day in their life, not any place they expected to be as a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed premed

Do you ever get that from older non-trads?

 

[21Rush12]

I don't disagree with you, but I still think that taking pleasure in making fun of those people means you're probably pretty obnoxious as well (not you specifically).

We go far enough back, you’re allowed to call me out for being obnoxious. I certainly can be.

I think it has something to do with the fact that the loud ones (future Pediatric neuro-astro-cardiothoracic dermatologists) are the ones who make the whole rest of us look bad. There’s a certain particular type of frustration that comes when you’re toiling silently and diligently, aware of your shortcomings, and other people are making grandiose declarations about how they’re going to do everything you plan to do and more as if it were as simple as calling dibs on a career.

 

[CertifiedGunner]

Yeah we're essentially saying the same thing. And I definitely agree that people can be very sensitive but I've been reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and its just really changed how I communicate with people online and in person. SDN gets pretty nasty sometimes so I get where OP is coming from, troll post or not.

I assure you that this is not a troll thread. Not quite sure what screams "troll", but there are certainly plenty of "troll" posts in this thread from various users. I agree with positive communication, but that is a lot to ask of people on the internet I suppose.

 

[NotAThrowaway]

If a pre-med states they want to go into peds, or be an obgyn, they're not met with the same vitriol if any. These same students are also "jumping the gun", "not focusing on medicine", and are "ignorant of the process" of becoming said specialist. So the alleged objective reasons given by some users in this thread are looking funny in the light. To answer your question OP, I think there's some possible insecurities, group think, and or prejudice at play. But I only have one limited perspective of this pie so I may be wrong.

(I want to be a psychiatrist btw so I have no dog in this fight)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

We go far enough back, you’re allowed to call me out for being obnoxious. I certainly can be.

I think it has something to do with the fact that the loud ones (future Pediatric neuro-astro-cardiothoracic dermatologists) are the ones who make the whole rest of us look bad. There’s a certain particular type of frustration that comes when you’re toiling silently and diligently, aware of your shortcomings, and other people are making grandiose declarations about how they’re going to do everything you plan to do and more as if it were as simple as calling dibs on a career.

I can dig that.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If a pre-med states they want to go into peds, or be an obgyn, they're not met with the same vitriol if any. These same students are also "jumping the gun", "not focusing on medicine", and are "ignorant of the process" of becoming said specialist. So the alleged objective reasons given by some users in this thread are looking funny in the light. To answer your question OP, I think there's some possible insecurities, group think, and or prejudice at play. But I only have one limited perspective of this pie so I may be wrong.

(I want to be a psychiatrist btw so I have no dog in this fight)

Primary care specialties are way more accessible. There are a lot fewer hurdles to get over, and it is not unrealistic to think you may be a primary care physician in the future. Neurosurgery is pretty much the opposite.

And I’d bet that many med students would laugh if you said you were interested in OB without any experience, but for different reasons.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

Primary care specialties are way more accessible. There are a lot fewer hurdles to get over, and it is not unrealistic to think you may be a primary care physician in the future. Neurosurgery is pretty much the opposite.

And I’d bet that many med students would laugh if you said you were interested in OB without any experience, but for different reasons.

That doesn't seem like a valid argument. Plenty of people want to be things that aren't as easily accessible, and accessibility is subjective and relative. For example, I've wanted to be a doctor since elementary school but that kind of aspiration was crazy where I grew up (primary care was scarce & becoming even a PCP doc was "unrealistic"). Someone discouraging you from something shouldn't be based on how accessible it is or people would never do different/better than their own families/friends.

Giving advice on the road ahead, or being supportive as someone changes their mind, is okay but I don't think you need to discourage someone from something simply because they don't know the ins & outs, or are simply interested in something they know little about. Encourage them to do research, pass on some nuggets of knowledge you've learned, and support another human in their non-malicious goals.

 

[altblue]

That doesn't seem like a valid argument. Plenty of people want to be things that aren't as easily accessible, and accessibility is subjective and relative. For example, I've wanted to be a doctor since elementary school but that kind of aspiration was crazy where I grew up (primary care was scarce & becoming even a PCP doc was "unrealistic"). Someone discouraging you from something shouldn't be based on how accessible it is or people would never do different/better than their own families/friends.

Giving advice on the road ahead, or being supportive as someone changes their mind, is okay but I don't think you need to discourage someone from something simply because they don't know the ins & outs, or are simply interested in something they know little about. Encourage them to do research, pass on some nuggets of knowledge you've learned, and support another human in their non-malicious goals.

Because of my socioeconomic background, nobody took me seriously when I said I wanted to do premed, so I'm aware of that angle to it. It's not only a matter of accessibility that makes a freshman look ridiculous when they say they want to be a neurosurgeon.

What also matters? Typically freshmen also have little idea of what the field actually entails, like what the operations are and the long residency with loooong-hour days, and are just interested in it because it sounds cool and prestigious. I don't know what the operations are like either, but I also have zero interest in surgery.

There's gradations and nuance. I have a friend with killer stats who's exceptionally hardworking, and another who's a literal genius, and both want to be neurosurgeons. I don't judge them for this, because I think they're both capable of it and they also have a strong sense of what the field entails.

I see what you're getting at, but there's a difference between being honestly interested in the field, if somewhat naive and needing to research better, and just saying you are to look smart or cool.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That doesn't seem like a valid argument. Plenty of people want to be things that aren't as easily accessible, and accessibility is subjective and relative. For example, I've wanted to be a doctor since elementary school but that kind of aspiration was crazy where I grew up (primary care was scarce & becoming even a PCP doc was "unrealistic"). Someone discouraging you from something shouldn't be based on how accessible it is or people would never do different/better than their own families/friends.

Giving advice on the road ahead, or being supportive as someone changes their mind, is okay but I don't think you need to discourage someone from something simply because they don't know the ins & outs, or are simply interested in something they know little about. Encourage them to do research, pass on some nuggets of knowledge you've learned, and support another human in their non-malicious goals.

Getting into medical school may be more inaccessible for some people based on situation. That is different from matching neurosurgery because matching nsg requires you to already be in med school. At that point, you have to jump the same hurdles as everyone else, and it is objectively difficult. Matching primary care, otoh, is not (nearly as difficult).

Edited to add the last part in parentheses.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

Because of my socioeconomic background, nobody took me seriously when I said I wanted to do premed, so I'm aware of that angle to it. It's not only a matter of accessibility that makes a freshman look ridiculous when they say they want to be a neurosurgeon.

What also matters? Typically freshmen also have little idea of what the field actually entails, like what the operations are and the long residency with loooong-hour days, and are just interested in it because it sounds cool and prestigious. I don't know what the operations are like either, but I also have zero interest in surgery.

There's gradations and nuance. I have a friend with killer stats who's exceptionally hardworking, and another who's a literal genius, and both want to be neurosurgeons. I don't judge them for this, because I think they're both capable of it and they also have a strong sense of what the field entails.

I see what you're getting at, but there's a difference between being honestly interested in the field, if somewhat naive and needing to research better, and just saying you are to look smart or cool.

I get that. I just think those nuances are important, and that accessibility shouldn't be the reason you discourage someone from a field.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

Getting into medical school may be more inaccessible for some people based on situation. That is different from matching neurosurgery because matching nsg requires you to already be in med school. At that point, you have to jump the same hurdles as everyone else, and it is objectively difficult. Matching primary care, otoh, is not (nearly as difficult).

Edited to add the last part in parentheses.

I don't disagree with this. I just don't feel accessibility should be the main argument or issue.

 

[altblue]

I get that. I just think those nuances are important, and that accessibility shouldn't be the reason you discourage someone from a field.

Yup, I think we agree on more than we disagree.

We shouldn't aim to discourage people from a field, but rather help them better understand everything it entails.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

Yup, I think we agree on more than we disagree.

We shouldn't aim to discourage people from a field, but rather help them better understand everything it entails.

I apologize if I sounded hostile. I can get prickly when issues of accessibility are brought up, because it can sometimes lead into presumptions about equity and disparity. I certainly had to educate myself over the years about what it really means to be and become a doctor, and people definitely need help educating themselves over that process.

 

[altblue]

I apologize if I sounded hostile. I can get prickly when issues of accessibility are brought up, because it can sometimes lead into presumptions about equity and disparity. I certainly had to educate myself over the years about what it really means to be and become a doctor, and people definitely need help educating themselves over that process.

No worries! I know what you're talking about, and we agree on a great deal.

 

[Goro]

--a) the "superstars" who are often far too confident in their chances, too arrogant in their applications, and too oblivious to the realities of this Olympic class event. I rarely take them on anymore as they, and their parents, are insufferable. I do have premed advisors who send them to me to essentially slap them down, especially when they are shocked, shocked I tell you, that they didn't get in their first cycle.

Just to follow up with an aside, these people are legion on SDN every August and Sept. Their mindsets are all the following: "I was complete [June/July date]...yet I haven't heard anything." What they're really saying is "I'm God's gift to Medicine...why hasn't Harvard contacted me yet?"

Note to tammy: this is the internet, it's not a safe place. And we're salty here because too many people come looking not for realistic advice, but hugs and kisses. Look at how many posts there are from people who lash out when they don't hear what they want to hear.


Throwaway, concerning your point: "If a pre-med states they want to go into peds, or be an obgyn, they're not met with the same vitriol if any. These same students are also "jumping the gun", "not focusing on medicine", and are "ignorant of the process" of becoming said specialist. So the alleged objective reasons given by some users in this thread are looking funny in the light. To answer your question OP, I think there's some possible insecurities, group think, and or prejudice at play. But I only have one limited perspective of this pie so I may be wrong.

(I want to be a psychiatrist btw so I have no dog in this fight)"

I think we knee-jerk react because the starry-eyed ones are not gunning for peds or Ob/Gyn, but always Peds Neurosurg, or Peds Cards. Always.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't disagree with this. I just don't feel accessibility should be the main argument or issue.

You're misunderstanding the argument though. This is not about accessibility insofar as equity or disparity in resources goes. It's about how inaccessible certain specialties are because they are so objectively hard to match. As far as making an argument about accessibility of getting into med school, I agree with you.

 

[tammyp]

Just to follow up with an aside, these people are legion on SDN every August and Sept. Their mindsets are all the following: "I was complete [June/July date]...yet I haven't heard anything." What they're really saying is "I'm God's gift to Medicine...why hasn't Harvard contacted me yet?"

Note to tammy: this is the internet, it's not a safe place. And we're salty here because too many people come looking not for realistic advice, but hugs and kisses. Look at how many posts there are from people who lash out when they don't hear what they want to hear.


Throwaway, concerning your point: "If a pre-med states they want to go into peds, or be an obgyn, they're not met with the same vitriol if any. These same students are also "jumping the gun", "not focusing on medicine", and are "ignorant of the process" of becoming said specialist. So the alleged objective reasons given by some users in this thread are looking funny in the light. To answer your question OP, I think there's some possible insecurities, group think, and or prejudice at play. But I only have one limited perspective of this pie so I may be wrong.

(I want to be a psychiatrist btw so I have no dog in this fight)"

I think we knee-jerk react because the starry-eyed ones are not gunning for peds or Ob/Gyn, but always Peds Neurosurg, or Peds Cards. Always.

Yes it may be the internet, but SDN is still a forum for people seeking professional careers and wanting to talk to other future/current professionals. I'm not endorsing coddling or maintaining ignorance but my point is that its sad that a lot of threads on SDN praise and celebrate those that can come up with the nastiest and most sarcastic comments, as though they're not talking to humans that you possibly go to school with or work with.

 

[altblue]

Yes it may be the internet, but SDN is still a forum for people seeking professional careers and wanting to talk to other future/current professionals. I'm not endorsing coddling or maintaining ignorance but my point is that its sad that a lot of threads on SDN praise and celebrate those that can come up with the nastiest and most sarcastic comments, as though they're not talking to humans that you possibly go to school with or work with.

What you're getting at is that some questioners come here grossly misinformed or neurotic, and rather predictably some responses play off of that. I mean if you come here asking if your 3.88 eliminates you from top schools, the responses you'll receive will reflect the nature of your question... If you're asking how to boost your chances to be a neurosurgeon or asserting what residency you'll go to as a college freshman, you won't get the best responses. You might get helpful responses, but not the most coddling or straightforward ones.

Where are these nasty, inappropriate comments coming from that you're seeing? On questions on domestic abuse or mental health where sarcasm is inappropriate, people are generally quite somber.

 

[tammyp]

What you're getting at is that some questioners come here grossly misinformed or neurotic, and rather predictably some responses play off of that. I mean if you come here asking if your 3.88 eliminates you from top schools, the responses you'll receive will reflect the nature of your question... If you're asking how to boost your chances to be a neurosurgeon or asserting what residency you'll go to as a college freshman, you won't get the best responses.

Where are these nasty, inappropriate comments coming from that you're seeing? On questions on domestic abuse or mental health where sarcasm is inappropriate, people are generally quite somber.

There are multiple threads of young students asking naive questions with the responses overflowing with sarcasm and Xanax. Maybe I'm so annoyed today from the comment on the self harm thread that I think you even called out. I have a hard time believing that the insensitive comment would've been made if there wasn't an already established appreciation of sarcarsm on SDN. I know that that specific comment may have been an outlier but the theme can't be ignored. I'm just over it.

 

[DocAdams]

 

[altblue]

There are multiple threads of young students asking naive questions with the responses overflowing with sarcasm and Xanax. Maybe I'm so annoyed today from the comment on the self harm thread that I think you even called out. I have a hard time believing that the insensitive comment would've been made if there wasn't an already established appreciation of sarcarsm on SDN. I know that that specific comment may have been an outlier but the theme can't be ignored. I'm just over it.

Yeah I did call that comment out, because we didn't know OP's mental state there and using that thread as a springboard was inappropriate. The Xanax joke is old too and makes light of people with anxiety issues.

I think we differ on the examples we recall.

I agree with you that an innocent and naive but understandable question doesn't deserve to be shot down. If there are examples of that, they should be treated well. I don't care on the other hand if the OP is arrogant, humblebragging, unable to listen, asking an unjustifiably naive question and they do get sarcasm in return.

 

[libertyyne]

From my position as an advisor, I get comments from both prospective applicants and their parents, that they only want to be a neurosurgeon or plastics or ortho with a degree from Harvard, Hopkins, Standford, etc. If I could physically throw a bucket of ice cold water on them, I would. I always warn them if you are unable to accept that you maybe a family practice doc in the Des Moinies, then you may want to reconsider this path. I have to go thru the entire litany of hurdles that they must face.

1) At any individual school, there are thousands of applications that must be reduced by at least 80% pre-interview to hundreds of interview slots that further get reduced to a few hundred acceptances to finally a hundred or so matriculating students. Students and parents are shocked, shocked I tell you, that little Johnnie or Jane were rejected from the start.

2) Overall, most people who apply do not get accepted; consider yourself lucky to get any acceptance. BTW, I would say about a 1/3 of the people who contact me for advising are reapplicants who are good to great applicants who applied to Harvard, Standford, Mayo, Hopkins and just other top schools and are shocked, shocked I tell you, that they didnt even get an interview.

100% apply
60% get rejected
20% get a single acceptance
20% get multiple acceptance.

3) Many advisees, most in fact, do not have any real idea of how residencies work and are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out that they cant realistically just go into any specialty they want. When I pull up NRMP data, or program directors survey data, they seem dumbfounded to find that of all the applicants to residencies, only 0.8% get into neurosurgery in 2017.

I want applicants to get into the process with eyes wide open as I have seen the other side of medical school admissions. By that I mean, the bitter 30+ year old who has finally finished residency, has yet to practice an independent day in their life, not any place they expected to be as a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed premed

Just to give some more important aspects of wanting to match Neurosurgery.
216 spots
20,000~ total us Seniors.
So for those keeping track
.4x.01= .004 of total people who apply to medical school will become neurosurgeons. The harvards of the world probably only have 10%~ of those NSG spots so 0.0004% of people who apply to medical school will go on to become a NSG at MGHesque places. There is also an attrition of NSG residents along the line of 10%~. so the percent of people sucessfully matching and completing residency in Neurosurgery is 0.0036% of total applicants.

 

[libertyyne]

I dont think anyone on this website will question your ability to become a neurosurgeon if you you are an m3 with a 260 Step 1, Jr AOA, 10 publications and scheduled to perform 2 sub I's.Even then you will be warned that even with a resume for NSG only 2/3rd of applicants match. You can aim as high as you want, but telling you the reality / odds of the situation is not rude, it is pragmatic.

 

[Med Ed]

I assure you that this is not a troll thread. Not quite sure what screams "troll",

1. Taking time to proclaim this thread is not a troll thread
2. Joined yesterday
3. Provocative username
4. Provocative thread

This is interwebs 101.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Hey all, I'm brand new here. Well that's not entirely true... I've been lurking on this website without an account for quite some while now. Normally I have never felt the need to post anything, but recently I've been seeing something that has kind of been rubbing me the wrong way.
I've noticed that whenever a pre-med mentions that they want to become a neurosurgeon or something along the same lines, they are almost immediately shot down by some of the "hot shots" over here. I'd like to know what is the reasoning behind this. If asked, I assume they would defend themselves by saying that they are only trying to save others from future disappointment. When you think about it, it is kind of similar to a gunner pre-med telling their classmate that getting into med school is way too hard, and that they should rather look into podiatry instead. Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. Thoughts?

I am totally with you. Aim high, if you have aspirations of entering the surgical field, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Just to give some more important aspects of wanting to match Neurosurgery.
216 spots
20,000~ total us Seniors.
So for those keeping track
.4x.01= .004 of total people who apply to medical school will become neurosurgeons. The harvards of the world probably only have 10%~ of those NSG spots so 0.0004% of people who apply to medical school will go on to become a NSG at MGHesque places. There is also an attrition of NSG residents along the line of 10%~. so the percent of people sucessfully matching and completing residency in Neurosurgery is 0.0036% of total applicants.

He said neurosurgery or something along those lines i.e. a competitive specialty. Aspiring towards something in a serious manner, even if pre-medically, is to be respected. Numbers mean nothing when determination is on your side.

OP, a lot people will come at you with facts, figures and other whinery, and what you should ask yourself is, are they actually trying to help you and letting you know it will be difficult but possible or are they simply jealous and make it their life purpose to criticize and shut down others in order that they do not succeed...

Sounds cliche... but its true.

 

[Lawpy]

Numbers mean nothing when determination is on your side.

A refuse to lose attitude and being a wizard on the wards also help 👍

 

[libertyyne]

He said neurosurgery or something along those lines i.e. a competitive specialty. Aspiring towards something in a serious manner, even if pre-medically, is to be respected. Numbers mean nothing when determination is on your side.

OP, a lot people will come at you with facts, figures and other whinery, and what you should ask yourself is, are they actually trying to help you and letting you know it will be difficult but possible or are they simply jealous and make it their life purpose to criticize and shut down others in order that they do not succeed...

Sounds cliche... but its true.

be sure to tell your end stage cancer patients that you are jealous, and it is your life's purpose to criticize and shut them down so they dont succeed when you give a terminal prognosis of 6 months.
Most of the people in medical school chiming in are a different cohort and have zero competition with OP or any premed.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

He said neurosurgery or something along those lines i.e. a competitive specialty. Aspiring towards something in a serious manner, even if pre-medically, is to be respected. Numbers mean nothing when determination is on your side.

OP, a lot people will come at you with facts, figures and other whinery, and what you should ask yourself is, are they actually trying to help you and letting you know it will be difficult but possible or are they simply jealous and make it their life purpose to criticize and shut down others in order that they do not succeed...

Sounds cliche... but its true.

Oh brother.

 

[altblue]

Oh brother.

I stopped reading at "Premedically"

 

[Deleted member 737595]

I stopped reading at "Premedically"

That’s too bad, you missed a good part of the story!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That’s too bad, you missed a good part of the story!

Numbers actually do mean a lot. Your post is just naive.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

be sure to tell your end stage cancer patients that you are jealous, and it is your life's purpose to criticize and shut them down so they dont succeed when you give a terminal prognosis of 6 months.
Most of the people in medical school chiming in are a different cohort and have zero competition with OP or any premed.

This has nothing to do with patients... OP is talking in general about reaching for the most competitive specialties. i’ saying, if it is meant to be, go for it.

Also, not a matter of competition. Its like the stock market. If you do poorly and get burned, you will most likely tell others to stay away psychologically speaking.

Just a theory... maybe I’m wrong here, but there ARE cases in life where this happens. I know from experience.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Numbers actually do mean a lot. Your post is just naive.

Never said they don’t. I agree, but numbers aren’t everything.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This has nothing to do with patients... OP is talking in general about reaching for the most competitive specialties. i’ saying, if it is meant to be, go for it.

Also, not a matter of competition. Its like the stock market. If you do poorly and get burned, you will most likely tell others to stay away psychologically speaking.

Just a theory... maybe I’m wrong here, but there ARE cases in life where this happens. I know from experience.

No one is saying not to shoot for nsg. We are saying to focus on getting into med school first, and that you shouldn’t go down this path if you cannot see yourself doing primary care, since there is a much higher chance of that happening than becoming a neurosurgeon.

 

[Goro]

1. Taking time to proclaim this thread is not a troll thread
2. Joined yesterday
3. Provocative username
4. Provocative thread

This is interwebs 101.

It may indeed be a troll post, but it's a great teaching moment.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Never said they don’t. I agree, but numbers aren’t everything.

They are not sufficient, but they are necessary. You will not match to nsg with a 200 step score no matter how much grit you have.

 

[Goro]

They are not sufficient, but they are necessary. You will not match to nsg with a 200 step score no matter how much grit you have.

I have an interview question that I use to weed out people who think that determination alone is all it takes. No, I'm not sharing.

I use it because I find that people with that attitude tend to be among the more immature-sounding of our interviewees.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

No one is saying not to shoot for nsg. We are saying to focus on getting into med school first, and that you shouldn’t go down this path if you cannot see yourself doing primary care, since there is a much higher chance of that happening than becoming a neurosurgeon.

I agree with that. A lot of premeds ARE hyperfocused on a certain specialty like derm or sports medicine with realizing PCP should be something they are interested in as well.

Then again, if you have even a slight interest in competitive specialties, this should be a factor in seeing where you apply to medical school right?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree with that. A lot of premeds ARE hyperfocused on a certain specialty like derm or sports medicine with realizing PCP should be something they are interested in as well.

Then again, if you have even a slight interest in competitive specialties, this should be a factor in seeing where you apply to medical school right?

Yeah, but it’s more like MD or DO. You can get into any specialty from a USMD school, even if going to a top 40 gives you a slight advantage.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

I have an interview question that I use to weed out people who think that determination alone is all it takes. No, I'm not sharing.

I use it because I find that people with that attitude tend to be among the more immature-sounding of our interviewees.

I didn’t say determination alone, I meant to communicate that statistics about how many get into each specialty shouldn’t deter someone passionate or determined about pursuing a certain specialty. That wasnt very clear in my post. Numbers in the academic sense, very important of course. Essential actually

 

[libertyyne]

This has nothing to do with patients... OP is talking in general about reaching for the most competitive specialties. i’ saying, if it is meant to be, go for it.

Also, not a matter of competition. Its like the stock market. If you do poorly and get burned, you will most likely tell others to stay away psychologically speaking.

Just a theory... maybe I’m wrong here, but there ARE cases in life where this happens. I know from experience.

This has something to do with likelihood and percentages. Giving a realistic prognosis or giving realistic chances of matching NSG at MGH are both exercises that require looking at the information available , the historical outcomes and giving an honest opinion. The stock market is a competition. The problem with outliers is that they are exactly that, outliers. There are countless other instances where failure occurs and you do not see it. The data however is not prone to such biases.
No one is saying you shouldnt dream of doing big things. You can dream about getting married to taylor swift, doesnt mean we have to coddle delusions on this website. But if you dont have the resume to match MGH NSG, perhaps energy is better spent on building that resume rather than coming on SDN to complain about how people treat you like you have no idea what it takes to match NSG at MGH.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

This has something to do with likelihood and percentages. Giving a realistic prognosis or giving realistic chances of matching NSG at MGH are both exercises that require looking at the information available , the historical outcomes and giving an honest opinion. The stock market is a competition. The problem with outliers is that they are exactly that, outliers. There are countless other instances where failure occurs and you do not see it. The data however is not prone to such biases.
No one is saying you shouldnt dream of doing big things. You can dream about getting married to taylor swift, doesnt mean we have to coddle delusions on this website. But if you dont have the resume to match MGH NSG, perhaps energy is better spent on building that resume rather than coming on SDN to complain about how people treat you like you have no idea what it takes to match NSG at MGH.

Well put.

 

[CertifiedGunner]

1. Taking time to proclaim this thread is not a troll thread
2. Joined yesterday
3. Provocative username
4. Provocative thread

This is interwebs 101.

1. I'd prefer that this thread not be seen as a troll thread as I am trying to actually get serious answers.
2. I mentioned that in the OP. I've casually scrolled SDN since my junior year of high school. It was only until I saw a particularly insensitive comment (relating exactly to this topic, mind you) in a thread about self harm that I decided to finally make an account.
3. You got me here. I find my username hilarious though, and can understand how one could see me as being a troll because of it. However, if my intent was to troll, I would have likely picked "FutureNeurosurg21" instead of the one I have currently.
4. If you could not already tell, I prefer polite conversation over sarcasm and general rudeness. I made this thread in order to gain a better understanding of a certain behavior that I have noticed. I sure as hell did not expect to get more than 20 replies on a topic such as this

You on the other hand seem to keep coming back for more, even though you are convinced that I am a troll. If you are not going to contribute anything to the conversation, you posting is a waste of time for both you and me.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Not everyone’s forte is chemistry 😛
But you’re not wrong, things absolutely do get harder.

That's what she said

 

[Deleted member 737595]

1. I'd prefer that this thread not be seen as a troll thread as I am trying to actually get serious answers.
2. I mentioned that in the OP. I've casually scrolled SDN since my junior year of high school. It was only until I saw a particularly insensitive comment (relating exactly to this topic, mind you) in a thread about self harm that I decided to finally make an account.
3. You got me here. I find my username hilarious though, and can understand how one could see me as being a troll because of it. However, if my intent was to troll, I would have likely picked "FutureNeurosurg21" instead of the one I have currently.
4. If you could not already tell, I prefer polite conversation over sarcasm and general rudeness. I made this thread in order to gain a better understanding of a certain behavior that I have noticed. I sure as hell did not expect to get more than 20 replies on a topic such as this

You on the other hand seem to keep coming back for more, even though you are convinced that I am a troll. If you are not going to contribute anything to the conversation, you posting is a waste of time for both you and me.

The term troll has been used so much in social networks like this or Reddit when the OP "troll" criticizes something or disagrees with something that the "hive mind" believes. Happens to me a lot. For example, post a thread about trying to graduate as swiftly as possible from undergraduate and see the posts that you get deterring you from this. Now, whether this is a good idea or not is irrelevant in this example, its just an idea, a different way from most. These sort of things convince me that you should take anything anyone says in these boards and elsewhere with a hefty grain of salt.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Numbers mean nothing when determination is on your side.

Lol... no. No matter how determined I was to become a sumo wrestler, I wouldn’t ever be one. I don’t have the physical capacity for it. Other than determination, you need to actually acknowledge reality.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[getdown]

Cute. As I begin training to become a doctor in August I'll keep in mind that positive reinforcement is almost always more effective than negative reinforcement. And that you truly do not gain anything at all from being rude and condescending to others, peers and patients alike, besides a fake sense of importance.

You may be in for a rude awakening during clinicals. Not everyone is going to be nice and supportive especially during your surgery rotations. Residents are tired, overworked, stressed and may lash out at you. And there will always be dinguses who want to lord it over you as a medical student. Getting chewed out for screwing up is a much better way of reinforcing what not to do then being told nicely. You'll see soon enough.