What jobs make more than doctors?

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

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One thing I've learned in life is that most luxury does not always come in the form of money, but often TIME.

Medicine doesn't always offer you the luxury of time. Keep that in mind. It can be sleep depriving, tiring, stressful, and full of many "you have only one chance" situations such as pass or fail exams and boards everywhere, surgeries, and so on.

So true

 

[Ligament]

I have, extensively. VA hospitals are absolutely terrible. The health care providers are fantastic and want change to the system, but the bureaucracy keep patients from being seen and a number of other issues. The VA is not a good model to base all of ones ideas of socialized medicine on because it is just a bad model for health care in general.

Single payer system (as it works in my head)would not try to emulate what veterans have but rather what active duty has. The VA is a terrible system not because socialized medicine is a terrible system.

At least that is how it works in my head. How do you feel it would play out in reality? Again I ask, this style of system works well elsewhere outside of the United States. Is it just an inherent American thing that keeps it from being established here?

We are not providers. We are physicians, nurses, MAs, Rad techs, etc. We do not "provide" anything. Your mom and dad hopefully provided to you, for free. We do not work for free. We sell our professional expertise for money. Not for the good of socialism.

You as a MD applicant should think of the linguistic programming that you have been exposed to. This is the goal of the government and the left; to reduce us to interchangeable cogs in a machine, refer to us all as "providers" so that 1) the layperson cannot tell the difference between a physician and a nurse practitioner 2) therefore physicans can be replaced with nurses since they are both "providers" 3) the layperson views our role as an obligatory service role, similar to a parent, that should deliver services without compensation. It helps the public to view us as evil and greedy for charging for our services.

 

[Planes2Doc]

This in itself is a loaded question... When I was an undergraduate, I was shooting for investment banking as were many of my peers. The money you can make working for the large banks is a lot, to put lightly. When people get into investment banking, they are often looking for exit strategies into other industries such as private equity. In other words, if you're competitive enough to make it into the financial world in areas such as investment banking, then you have the potential to make loads of money going forward. They work insane hours though, and work far more than I did when I was an intern. In fact, I have a friend who quit his investment banking position for an airline management position (huge pay cut), and then went to medical school around the same time I left.

I have a relative who went to a low-ranking college and majored in philosophy. After working some crappy odd jobs, he started selling cars for a Toyota dealership. He was pretty good at it, and landed at another dealer at the right time. He worked his way up to finance & insurance, and is now a general manager at a high-volume dealership in the Greater Chicagoland area. He makes as much per year as some of the competitive specialties. But in the car industry, you have one foot in, and one out the door at all times. You can lose your job pretty quickly if things go badly. Nevertheless, some top salesmen make well into six-figures. It can be a pretty sweet industry for those who didn't go to college or went somewhere low-ranking. I know it gets a bad reputation, but selling cars can make some of the lucky ones rich. The same goes for any sales position. If you're really good at what you do, you can make a killing, even for some of the most mundane and boring companies. For instance, I hear the top sellers at Cintas make a killing. I'll be honest when I say that I wasn't passionate about employee uniforms, restroom supplies, and floor mats while growing up. So even if I could make more money working for something like Cintas or a car dealership, I would have to turn it down. I'd rather do what I'm passionate about.

Also, as you move up the ladder in other business fields, law, and others you will make large amounts of money.

The one thing that really bothers me here is the attitude on SDN toward entrepreneurship. Starting your own business has a ton of risk for high reward. It's often made out to be an easy thing on this site, and that someone should weigh the pros and cons of starting a multi-million dollar company versus potential earnings as an orthopedic surgeon. Just because you're really smart does not mean you will be successful. Over 90% of startups fail, and there are brilliant people at their helm. Also, getting into a competitive specialties such as orthopedics or radiation oncology aren't a walk in the park. In other words, if you have a brilliant idea and want to start your own company, go for it. But there's no way of assuming you are going to be a multi-millionaire entrepreneur just because you have the stats to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, I'm happy that I can do what I'm passionate about daily. It sure beats the hell out of other stuff, even if I were to [hypothetically] make more money doing so.

 

[907914]

We are physicians, nurses, MAs, Rad techs, etc. We do not "provide" anything

We are providing something. We are providing a service. That service is healthcare and delivery of treatment. Provide =/= free.

We sell our professional expertise for money. Not for the good of socialism.

This feels like an antiquated idea of the modern physician. By the time my generation of physicians has taken over the role of predominant attending (1989 - 1996) in around 20 years, the idea of private practice will be dead (as it almost is now). When you work for a hospital, or any employer for that matter, you are not selling your professional expertise. You are using your professional expertise to complete the job you were hired to perform. Even were we to transition to full socialism, physicians would still receive money. People in government work are still paid in more than compassion.

linguistic programming that you have been exposed to.

I am well aware of the "providers" lingo used to box physicians, NPs, and PAs in to the same box. I agree that it is demeaning to the physicians role, however when we have such a short supply of primary care physicians the NP and PA can serve that role. And if people are intimidated by the notion of physicians, referring to everyone as "provider" can get more people to visit a clinic/hospital/'provider.' If people think they are getting the same care, they wil go out and seek care as opposed to sitting at home festering in their illness.

reduce us to interchangeable cogs in a machine,

I mean....we kind of are? An NP/PA still answers to a physician and if they do not then they do not have full and total scope of practice (limited procedures, no surgeries, limited scope of diagnostics beyond the typical). When the goal is to get patients treating their illnesses as opposed to, you know, just dying...Who cares what face or letters fall after the name? The physician still plays the central role in anything atypical and still does the actual treatments beyond the typical. Thus, they are not replaced. The roles NPs/PAs are filling are in primary care and those roles are expanding faster than attrition of physicians and faster than NP/PA can even fill them. NP/PA are making up a larger portion of health care delivery, but they are quantitatively not taking up a larger total number of slots. MDs and DOs are doing it to ourselves by choosing to work specialties in over saturated markets as opposed to working primary care in rural areas. So unless we FORCE rural/primary care quotas, someone needs to fill that role. Thus, the NP and the PA.

1) the layperson cannot tell the difference between a physician and a nurse practitioner

Again, the primary goal is to get the layperson receiving treatment they otherwise would not have seen. So who cares if they cannot tell the difference? The paycheck NP vs Physician will still be different, regardless of what the patient thinks.

2) therefore physicians can be replaced with nurses since they are both "providers"

See above. No replacement, merely expansion of services.

3) the layperson views our role as an obligatory service role, similar to a parent, that should deliver services without compensation.

This is just propaganda. No one thinks doctors should go without pay and it is a silly notion to suggest such. To the first point, I completely agree with the layperson. Healthcare in all facets, from the Medical Assistant to the Orthopedic Surgeon, SHOULD be obligatory. No one should have to die as a result of a treatable illness and no one should have to go bankrupt just to survive. This does not, however, mean that health care workers go without compensation.

Particularly in my generation of (hopeful) physicians, we mostly just want to make enough money to pay student loans, live in a decent house in a decent part of town, pay for our kids college, take a vacation or two, and not have to worry about where/whats for dinner. Up until 60-80 years ago with the development of the extraordinarily toxic insurance-physician-patient relationship, the aforementioned lifestyle is what physicians had.

 

[Ligament]

This in itself is a loaded question... When I was an undergraduate, I was shooting for investment banking as were many of my peers. The money you can make working for the large banks is a lot, to put lightly. When people get into investment banking, they are often looking for exit strategies into other industries such as private equity. In other words, if you're competitive enough to make it into the financial world in areas such as investment banking, then you have the potential to make loads of money going forward. They work insane hours though, and work far more than I did when I was an intern. In fact, I have a friend who quit his investment banking position for an airline management position (huge pay cut), and then went to medical school around the same time I left.

I have a relative who went to a low-ranking college and majored in philosophy. After working some crappy odd jobs, he started selling cars for a Toyota dealership. He was pretty good at it, and landed at another dealer at the right time. He worked his way up to finance & insurance, and is now a general manager at a high-volume dealership in the Greater Chicagoland area. He makes as much per year as some of the competitive specialties. But in the car industry, you have one foot in, and one out the door at all times. You can lose your job pretty quickly if things go badly. Nevertheless, some top salesmen make well into six-figures. It can be a pretty sweet industry for those who didn't go to college or went somewhere low-ranking. I know it gets a bad reputation, but selling cars can make some of the lucky ones rich. The same goes for any sales position. If you're really good at what you do, you can make a killing, even for some of the most mundane and boring companies. For instance, I hear the top sellers at Cintas make a killing. I'll be honest when I say that I wasn't passionate about employee uniforms, restroom supplies, and floor mats while growing up. So even if I could make more money working for something like Cintas or a car dealership, I would have to turn it down. I'd rather do what I'm passionate about.

Also, as you move up the ladder in other business fields, law, and others you will make large amounts of money.

The one thing that really bothers me here is the attitude on SDN toward entrepreneurship. Starting your own business has a ton of risk for high reward. It's often made out to be an easy thing on this site, and that someone should weigh the pros and cons of starting a multi-million dollar company versus potential earnings as an orthopedic surgeon. Just because you're really smart does not mean you will be successful. Over 90% of startups fail, and there are brilliant people at their helm. Also, getting into a competitive specialties such as orthopedics or radiation oncology aren't a walk in the park. In other words, if you have a brilliant idea and want to start your own company, go for it. But there's no way of assuming you are going to be a multi-millionaire entrepreneur just because you have the stats to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, I'm happy that I can do what I'm passionate about daily. It sure beats the hell out of other stuff, even if I were to [hypothetically] make more money doing so.

Dont forget you can start your own company (medical clinic) as a physician as well, private practice is still, for now, an option unless the socialists kill it.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Dont forget you can start your own company (medical clinic) as a physician as well, private practice is still, for now, an option unless the socialists kill it.

True. But you still have former outpatient internists that became hospitalists because they don't want to deal with the headaches owning a private practice entails.

 

[jhamaican]

One should not become a doctor solely to make money: better and easier ways to do it if that is your goal.

Please always say this like it is gospel.

Please tell me what other career is guaranteed 100% such a high salary so long as you jump through the hoops?

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Please always say this like it is gospel.

Please tell me what other career is guaranteed 100% such a high salary so long as you jump through the hoops?

Public accounting, for one. Starting at $50,000 to $60,000 starting straight out of undergrad at 22. Six figures after roughly 7 or 8 years. No additional graduate school debt required and you spend yours 20s with money to have fun. Tops out at around the primary care salary level, unless you become a partner. It's mind numbingly boring work, but a relatively safe profession.

 

[jhamaican]

Public accounting, for one. Starting at $50,000 to $60,000 starting straight out of undergrad at 22. Six figures after roughly 7 or 8 years. No additional graduate school debt required and you spend yours 20s with money to have fun. Tops out at around the primary care salary level, unless you become a partner. It's mind numbingly boring work, but a relatively safe profession.

Comparing to PCP salary sure. But sub specialist surgeon vs IM specialty (cards, GI) no way

And I would still argue that it is not a 100% sure thing you will find a solid gig in accounting that will lead you down that path to mind numbing number crunching success.

 

[zapproximator1]

My TL;DR:
1. Medicine provides one of the highest median salaries, especially relative to job security/volatility (Medicare for all may lower salaries, however this will reduce debt etc.)
2. Other fields (e.g. finance/tech/entrepreneurship/law) can earn more but they are a) much more luck dependent b) less meaningful (generally) c) much less consistent.
3. When you consider debt/opportunity cost/hours etc. medicine is definitely not the right path for the (exclusively) money-driven.

Feedback?

 

[Engrailed]

What jobs make more than doctors?
I would suggest that the median of medicine is unbeatable but the outliers in business (especially tech and finance) are much, much higher. So, a top performer in medicine will earn great money. But a true top performer in business will earn insane money. For example, I know people who work in enterprise sales for big software companies (Microsoft/Salesforce/Oracle/IBM etc) who pull in half a million every year and have broken seven figures several years. Of course, less consistent than medicine but the top quartile is pretty incredible.

Also, BigLaw lawyers with a ton of experience, MBB consulting partners, investment bankers, hedge fund/private equity/asset management, etc.

And of course, business owners.

Probably, all in, traders at investment banks as their ceiling essentially has no limit if they’re good but the job has little stability, you’re compromising your health due to the insane stress, no sleep, and they’re generally unhappy and feel life is meaningless.
Plus jobs have no real longevity. You can be fired at any moment depending in market conditions etc
I have several friends in finance and one who works at one of the large banks recently told me that as soon as they have a bad earnings quarter, the management starts counting ppl to see who they can fire.. so yeah! Def not worth it

Also lawyers work insane hours due to billables. HAve no work life balance as well

Doctors make the most if you count satisfaction and feeling like you’re contributing to society as an intangible but valuable asset🙂

 

[Alakazam123]

There are several jobs that make more than CERTAIN medical fields. When I speak to people outside of the pre-med field, they have a conception that most medical students become CT Surgeons, Neurosurgeons, etc. They don't see how competitive those fields are, and that only a VERY small fraction of medical students make it to that level.

Majority of physicians make between $200-350K, and it is possible to earn this much in other fields, assuming you possess the same academic calibre that a successful med school applicant would have. For instance, in my college, there are several CS majors who've graduated with $100K salary offers for software engineering positions. Some may say that the salary may not grow much from that point onwards, which heavily depends on the company.

What is important to note is that many of these people work at publicly traded companies. This means that after some time, they are eligible to have stock options. Once the stock options vest, you can sell them, and add whatever you get, to your base income. Furthermore, this doesn't include your separate performance bonus. So, while your salary may only be $150-200K, your stock options may add an additional $100K, depending on how successful you are in the company. There are software engineers at Google, FB, and Microsoft who pull in about $300K/year. Yes, it is true that these people are very skilled, but then again, you also have to be very skilled to get into medical school and become an excellent doctor.

I have a couple friends working in high finance, and their income ceiling is FAR higher than that of many physicians. Heck, there are accountants, whom after about 12-15 years of experience are able to pull in about $200K. If you factor in all the years of lost income, accrued debt, and low salaries of residency, in order to catch up and become debt free, it may take a couple years, after finishing residency, by which time you'll be in your mid-late 30s.

Another thing to consider is this...being a physician is a stressful job. It is not always a 9-5 gig. Depending on the speciality, there may be a lot of call to take. The Neurosurgeons whom a lot of non-premeds mention, have to work 80-90 hours/week (sometimes more). So, while doctors make considerably more than the average population in certain cases (i.e. surgical fields), they also have to put in considerably more effort as well.

 

[FlowRate]

Epic thread bump @Alakazam123 .

I will add that it's not super useful to assume that you have a transferable skill set, especially if you were a pre-med/bio/biochem major. What would your career have been if you hadn't gotten in to med school? As a chemical engineer, the most likely trajectory for me would have been to $150k engineering management positions, which tend to be somewhat volatile. Sure, I had a classmate who found a lucrative and stable setup, but that was mostly the right mix of luck and preparation.

It's a little different if you actually have software engineering experience, or already successfully worked on wall st., etc. In fact, I had a number of classmates who had prior work experience in those fields and switched to medicine. Money is great but not everything is about making money.

Also, a lot of the comparison industries (big law, top 3 consulting, high-end finance) work similar hours to busy specialists or even surgeons.

There aren't many jobs that work a consistent 40-hours per week and pull in >$250k.

 

[<(^_^)>]

Stumbled on this thread looking something up for family friend considering med school... tech pays much, much better than medicine with a way better lifestyle if your motivations are purely to make a bunch of $ and have a sane work schedule.

All of my friends from college work at Facebook, amazon, Microsoft, google, Netflix, Apple etc. and not all in Bay Area either. These are not ultra selective jobs (maybe analogous to psych EM and anesthesia) and none work over 60 hours.

Pay is MUCH higher than you will find on something like Glassdoor. That is base salary only, without bonus and without stock comp (which often exceeds base salary, sometimes by a factor of 2-3). Compare salaries and career levels across companies | Levels.fyi the lowest level is what people earn straight out of college. By the time you’re done with medical school your friends will be level 4. By the time you’re done with even a family med residency they will be at level 5.

Point of this post isn’t to say medicine isn’t worth it, but it is to say that purely financially speaking it’s not the golden ticket it once was especially for primary care. Medical school costs have skyrocketed and reimbursement changes are possible on the horizon (expect roughly a 30% decline if Medicare for all were passed). Medicine is not the best career path if you are wanting predictable, reasonable hours, want to be able to live a middle class lifestyle in your 20s or gain financial independence and retire early. Having said that there is no career out there for many people that offers this much fulfillment and purpose. It still pays well enough if you aren’t expecting a “doctor” lifestyle.

 

[Lasofloxabuterol]

Stumbled on this thread looking something up for family friend considering med school... tech pays much, much better than medicine with a way better lifestyle if your motivations are purely to make a bunch of $ and have a sane work schedule.

All of my friends from college work at Facebook, amazon, Microsoft, google, Netflix, Apple etc. and not all in Bay Area either. These are not ultra selective jobs (maybe analogous to psych EM and anesthesia) and none work over 60 hours.

Pay is MUCH higher than you will find on something like Glassdoor. That is base salary only, without bonus and without stock comp (which often exceeds base salary, sometimes by a factor of 2-3). Compare salaries and career levels across companies | Levels.fyi the lowest level is what people earn straight out of college. By the time you’re done with medical school your friends will be level 4. By the time you’re done with even a family med residency they will be at level 5.

Point of this post isn’t to say medicine isn’t worth it, but it is to say that purely financially speaking it’s not the golden ticket it once was especially for primary care. Medical school costs have skyrocketed and reimbursement changes are possible on the horizon (expect roughly a 30% decline if Medicare for all were passed). Medicine is not the best career path if you are wanting predictable, reasonable hours, want to be able to live a middle class lifestyle in your 20s or gain financial independence and retire early. Having said that there is no career out there for many people that offers this much fulfillment and purpose. It still pays well enough if you aren’t expecting a “doctor” lifestyle.

Would you expect a decline in med school applications if Medicare for all was passed?? Who would want to go through the rigorous medical training a sub-specialist surgeon, for example, goes through for a 30% decline in compensation with 100-400k in debt....

 

[Alakazam123]

Epic thread bump @Alakazam123 .

I will add that it's not super useful to assume that you have a transferable skill set, especially if you were a pre-med/bio/biochem major. What would your career have been if you hadn't gotten in to med school? As a chemical engineer, the most likely trajectory for me would have been to $150k engineering management positions, which tend to be somewhat volatile. Sure, I had a classmate who found a lucrative and stable setup, but that was mostly the right mix of luck and preparation.

It's a little different if you actually have software engineering experience, or already successfully worked on wall st., etc. In fact, I had a number of classmates who had prior work experience in those fields and switched to medicine. Money is great but not everything is about making money.

Also, a lot of the comparison industries (big law, top 3 consulting, high-end finance) work similar hours to busy specialists or even surgeons.

There aren't many jobs that work a consistent 40-hours per week and pull in >$250k.

Very good points. Engineering is like primary care of the non-medical world. The jobs are quite abundant, but yes, the pay is not the greatest. However, it should not be difficult to find a job out of college. Furthermore, once you start to accumulate experience, you should be able to get better and better offers going forward.

To address your point about chemical engineering specifically, it's because the field itself requires a high level of specialization. Most people who graduate with a B.S. in chemical engineering unfortunately either end up getting jobs in a different engineering field OR get stuck with technician level work (my friend is an example of this, as he get his M.S. in Mechanical Engineering while working). Chemical engineering specifically, has jobs available for people with at least an M.S. or in some cases (lookin' at you Pharma), a PhD, regarding things like process development, GMP, etc.

However, civil, mechanical, and aerospace engineers should be able to find jobs relatively easily, upon graduation (all of the engineers at my school were able to have several job offers before graduation). The other thing to understand, is that engineers have a LOT of value outside of engineering. A lot of people don't understand what their value is, when they are applying for jobs. So, a person with an engineering degree doesn't think to apply for jobs as a securities trader on Wall Street, or as a business consultant, etc. They lock down on just engineering. This is partly the fault of academic institutions that do a poor job of teaching students how to assess their competency beyond their area of training.

I'd also like to re-emphasize that salary is not total comp. Compensation is often broken down in the following way:

1. Base salary
2. Bonus
3. Stock Options/ RSUs

As you ascend in the hirearchy, your total compensation will contain more of #3, than of #1 or #2. This is how the top software engineers at Google, FB, Amazon, etc. end up pulling in $300K/year. Also, as someone with several friends in tech, I can confirm that it is a 9-5 work schedule that they have, while still pulling in close to that $200K amount.

Furthermore, even if we were to concede that doctors all make more, we have to ask how much more. Let's say as an Infectious Disease physician you make $220K upon completion of training, but as a mechanical engineer you'd be making $150K after a comparable amount of time in the workforce....which is the better option?

The $220K comes with 4 years worth of student loans for medical school (if and only if you were lucky enough to have someone fund your undergraduate studies [or if you got a great scholarship]). Furthermore, those loans will accrue over the course of your residency, and the years that you spend back paying it off. So, living conservatively it may take you a couple years after training to pay it off.

I know an anesthesiologist who is in her mid-40s and still paying off her student loans. TL;dr It's tough...really tough. Not everyone becomes a neurosurgeon and pulls in $600K+/year, or becomes a dermatologist who makes $400K/year with a full-on cosmetic practice. Medicine is a field that is very noble and filled with amazing possibilities, but is also one with great sacrifices.

 

[Alakazam123]

I'd also like to add a qualifier:

The S part of STEM, unfortunately does not have a very good job market. Biology, biochemistry, chemistry, or physiology majors either have gone on to get M.S. or PhD (usually the latter) degrees before finding gainful employment, or they've even taken jobs working as a cashier or other small minimum-wage jobs after graduation.

Electrical, mechanical, civil, and aerospace engineering are quite strong in terms of their job market. Furthermore, statistics and applied mathematics are an excellent option, with the rise of data science job opportunities. I have a few friends who majored in those fields, and they've found job offers in the field, upon graduation ($60K+).

Computer science job market is beastly, due to the high transferability of skills, and how the future of many industries is digital.

 

[<(^_^)>]

Would you expect a decline in med school applications if Medicare for all was passed?? Who would want to go through the rigorous medical training a sub-specialist surgeon, for example, goes through for a 30% decline in compensation with 100-400k in debt....

Well people that want to do surgery will still want to do surgery (pay will still be okay), but quality might decline. I expect you might see more surgical mid-levels.

 

[Lasofloxabuterol]

Well people that want to do surgery will still want to do surgery (pay will still be okay), but quality might decline. I expect you might see more surgical mid-levels.

I hope that when the quality decreases and outcomes suffer people will reconsider their position on medicare for all.

 

[Seihai]

I hope that when the quality decreases and outcomes suffer people will reconsider their position on medicare for all.

Can you source or justify your claims on Medicare for All leading to diminished outcomes and quality? I'd like to see this perspective of the issue.

 

[Lasofloxabuterol]

Can you source or justify your claims on Medicare for All leading to diminished outcomes and quality? I'd like to see this perspective of the issue.

I would say that the taxpayer burden MFA would demand for similar, or even better, quality of care than we have presently would be unrealistic to begin with. Yes, many more people would have access to care but healthcare salaries would decrease, thus, leading to a diminished interest of students pursuing medical careers which would lead to a greater physician shortage than we already have and we would have to rely on mid-levels much more than we do now as <(^_^)> alluded to. This would directly impact the quality of care delivery to the patients MFA is intended to benefit as well as impact outcomes as a result.

 

[Alakazam123]

Certain provinces in Canada (British Columbia, Saskatchewan, etc.) are example that a single payer healthcare system, despite its universality, can make things quite difficult. The fact remains that there is a limited amount of money under those circumstances. When there is a limited amount of money, there is no choice but to ration care to the patients. This is why, in Canada it can take you up to 1-2 months to get an MRI or diagnostic scan if the doctor deems it less urgent. Of course, if it ends up being an urgent condition which is neglected, it may be considerably worse in 1-2 months. Knee replacements and other elective orthopedic procedures often have this tight squeeze, which is why some people in Canada just come to the US, or go elsewhere in Europe to get the procedure done.

I think that Ontario and Quebec have learned from this, and are incorporating private health insurance quite actively into their healthcare systems. In fact, there is some version of "concierge care" in certain Montreal clinics, and Toronto as well.

 

[deleted746658]

current resident. 250k in debt at 6.8%. make 60k/year. a few of my friends have been making 100k/yr since they were 23-24 yo. they are frugal, invest well. my salary may be higher than theirs when i finish training, but they will be astronomically more wealthy. hell, i doubt i will catch up to any of my non-medical friends financially.

medicine, imo, is a terrible financial investment at this point in time. the opportunity cost is extraordinary. and there is so much uncertainty regarding reimbursement in the coming years.

i encourage all premeds i interact with to stay far away from medicine. even if you're heart is golden and you have an unyielding calling for noble work... this will be eroded early on in your training. your soul will be crushed by working 80+hr weeks, ungrateful and non-compliant patients, realizing you traded away your 20s for this, seeing your non-med friends buy houses, go on vacations, get promotions, start families, etc. ...... a career in medicine delays all of this. it's hard to know what this feels like until you are experiencing it. you feel so far behind.

i truly am saddened by my career choice, and the worst part of medicine is how you feel trapped. i often day dream of quitting and doing something else... anything really... but i feel locked in bc my loans and the sacrifice i made to get here. i feel like i need to at least recoup my original investment (aka hit a net worth of $0, which will happen in my mid 30s... depressing thought, really... 10 years of absolute grinding to literally be worth $0. let that sink in)

i wouldn't say i went into medicine for the money, but i damn well believed i would be well compensated for mortgaging my youth. now, i'm not not sure i'll ever be able to overcome losing out 10 years in a bull market and going 300k into the red.


TLDR: i'm not sure what positives there are to becoming a doctor at this point in time. money, sure as ***, ain't one of them

 

[Kuratz]

TLDR: i'm not sure what positives there are to becoming a doctor at this point in time. money, sure as ***, ain't one of them

Unfortunately your entire post expresses my thoughts 100% to a T. Sad state of affairs

 

[Lasofloxabuterol]

current resident. 250k in debt at 6.8%. make 60k/year. a few of my friends have been making 100k/yr since they were 23-24 yo. they are frugal, invest well. my salary may be higher than theirs when i finish training, but they will be astronomically more wealthy. hell, i doubt i will catch up to any of my non-medical friends financially.

medicine, imo, is a terrible financial investment at this point in time. the opportunity cost is extraordinary. and there is so much uncertainty regarding reimbursement in the coming years.

i encourage all premeds i interact with to stay far away from medicine. even if you're heart is golden and you have an unyielding calling for noble work... this will be eroded early on in your training. your soul will be crushed by working 80+hr weeks, ungrateful and non-compliant patients, realizing you traded away your 20s for this, seeing your non-med friends buy houses, go on vacations, get promotions, start families, etc. ...... a career in medicine delays all of this. it's hard to know what this feels like until you are experiencing it. you feel so far behind.

i truly am saddened by my career choice, and the worst part of medicine is how you feel trapped. i often day dream of quitting and doing something else... anything really... but i feel locked in bc my loans and the sacrifice i made to get here. i feel like i need to at least recoup my original investment (aka hit a net worth of $0, which will happen in my mid 30s... depressing thought, really... 10 years of absolute grinding to literally be worth $0. let that sink in)

i wouldn't say i went into medicine for the money, but i damn well believed i would be well compensated for mortgaging my youth. now, i'm not not sure i'll ever be able to overcome losing out 10 years in a bull market and going 300k into the red.


TLDR: i'm not sure what positives there are to becoming a doctor at this point in time. money, sure as ***, ain't one of them

Unfortunately your entire post expresses my thoughts 100% to a T. Sad state of affairs

current resident. 250k in debt at 6.8%. make 60k/year. a few of my friends have been making 100k/yr since they were 23-24 yo. they are frugal, invest well. my salary may be higher than theirs when i finish training, but they will be astronomically more wealthy. hell, i doubt i will catch up to any of my non-medical friends financially.

medicine, imo, is a terrible financial investment at this point in time. the opportunity cost is extraordinary. and there is so much uncertainty regarding reimbursement in the coming years.

i encourage all premeds i interact with to stay far away from medicine. even if you're heart is golden and you have an unyielding calling for noble work... this will be eroded early on in your training. your soul will be crushed by working 80+hr weeks, ungrateful and non-compliant patients, realizing you traded away your 20s for this, seeing your non-med friends buy houses, go on vacations, get promotions, start families, etc. ...... a career in medicine delays all of this. it's hard to know what this feels like until you are experiencing it. you feel so far behind.

i truly am saddened by my career choice, and the worst part of medicine is how you feel trapped. i often day dream of quitting and doing something else... anything really... but i feel locked in bc my loans and the sacrifice i made to get here. i feel like i need to at least recoup my original investment (aka hit a net worth of $0, which will happen in my mid 30s... depressing thought, really... 10 years of absolute grinding to literally be worth $0. let that sink in)

i wouldn't say i went into medicine for the money, but i damn well believed i would be well compensated for mortgaging my youth. now, i'm not not sure i'll ever be able to overcome losing out 10 years in a bull market and going 300k into the red.


TLDR: i'm not sure what positives there are to becoming a doctor at this point in time. money, sure as ***, ain't one of them

That's a bit demoralizing, but realistic. What specialty are you in??

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Most students graduating from state or small private schools aren't getting six figure starting salaries. The amount of money that those in non-medicine careers make is greatly overestimated on SDN. That said, there are easier paths to a high income, but the vast majority of them still require more than 40 hours a week and hard work.

 

[Alakazam123]

Most students graduating from state or small private schools aren't getting six figure starting salaries. The amount of money that those in non-medicine careers make is greatly overestimated on SDN. That said, there are easier paths to a high income, but the vast majority of them still require more than 40 hours a week and hard work.

I was in a public university, and the students in my graduating class got such high salaries. Of course, not everyone graduating in those fields gets those salaries. The starting salary is usually around $60K for a lot of entry-level engineering jobs (with software engineering paying around $70-80K). Regardless, the point is that, in the time that it takes to complete residency, fellowship, and pay off your student loans, the people in the other fields would've been able to save considerably more, possibly invest in stocks, real estate, etc. and eventually rise to a salary level that is comparable to that of certain mid-tier physicians.

Again, like I mentioned before, one has to consider the cost-benefit analysis. While you may cap off at around $160K as an engineer, you also cap off at around 40 hr/week of work. The Neurosurgeons pulling in $600K+ are usually working twice that many hours. Even the ID specialists or primary care physicians who make $220K still had to take on an additional 4 years of student loan burden, which ballooned over the course of residency and fellowship.

When all those things are concerned, making about 50K less, is not such a big deal. Not to mention, at senior levels, if you are in a publicly traded company, you may get access to RSUs (Restricted-Stock-Units).

Medical school applicants tend to be excellent students, or at the least very determined. So, it's important that we compare people of similar caliber in other fields.

 

[karayaa]

This is an interesting comparison

Tech or Finance or Medicine or Law: Which Pays the Most?

Which pays better: tech, banking, consulting, medicine, or the law? A new and significant discussion point has been added to the perennial debate about

insights.dice.com

Most students graduating from state or small private schools aren't getting six figure starting salaries. The amount of money that those in non-medicine careers make is greatly overestimated on SDN. That said, there are easier paths to a high income, but the vast majority of them still require more than 40 hours a week and hard work.

Most state schools have the departments and training you need to get a tech job (CS, graphic design, math, econ). I agree that most small private schools probably don't have those departments, but grads can always do a masters to gain those skills. And in tech, yes, you can start with 6 figure salaries.

current resident. 250k in debt at 6.8%. make 60k/year. a few of my friends have been making 100k/yr since they were 23-24 yo. they are frugal, invest well. my salary may be higher than theirs when i finish training, but they will be astronomically more wealthy. hell, i doubt i will catch up to any of my non-medical friends financially.

medicine, imo, is a terrible financial investment at this point in time. the opportunity cost is extraordinary. and there is so much uncertainty regarding reimbursement in the coming years.

i encourage all premeds i interact with to stay far away from medicine. even if you're heart is golden and you have an unyielding calling for noble work... this will be eroded early on in your training. your soul will be crushed by working 80+hr weeks, ungrateful and non-compliant patients, realizing you traded away your 20s for this, seeing your non-med friends buy houses, go on vacations, get promotions, start families, etc. ...... a career in medicine delays all of this. it's hard to know what this feels like until you are experiencing it. you feel so far behind.

i truly am saddened by my career choice, and the worst part of medicine is how you feel trapped. i often day dream of quitting and doing something else... anything really... but i feel locked in bc my loans and the sacrifice i made to get here. i feel like i need to at least recoup my original investment (aka hit a net worth of $0, which will happen in my mid 30s... depressing thought, really... 10 years of absolute grinding to literally be worth $0. let that sink in)

i wouldn't say i went into medicine for the money, but i damn well believed i would be well compensated for mortgaging my youth. now, i'm not not sure i'll ever be able to overcome losing out 10 years in a bull market and going 300k into the red.

this is real. I don't think many of us go into medicine just for the money, but I assume it's part of the draw. And it's hard to understand how big a sacrifice medicine is until you see your friends moving on with "life": kids, houses, vacations, etc

There aren't many jobs that work a consistent 40-hours per week and pull in >$250k.

And medicine is not one of those jobs, unless you focus on elective, cash procedures like plastics or derm, or an outpatient field like neurology or obgyn (maybe in rural areas)

The S part of STEM, unfortunately does not have a very good job market. Biology, biochemistry, chemistry, or physiology majors either have gone on to get M.S. or PhD (usually the latter) degrees before finding gainful employment, or they've even taken jobs working as a cashier or other small minimum-wage jobs after graduation.

I agree if you're focusing on lab skills, but those fields can transition into tech pretty easily with a masters program because of their science backgrounds

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

current resident. 250k in debt at 6.8%. make 60k/year. a few of my friends have been making 100k/yr since they were 23-24 yo. they are frugal, invest well. my salary may be higher than theirs when i finish training, but they will be astronomically more wealthy. hell, i doubt i will catch up to any of my non-medical friends financially.

medicine, imo, is a terrible financial investment at this point in time. the opportunity cost is extraordinary. and there is so much uncertainty regarding reimbursement in the coming years.

i encourage all premeds i interact with to stay far away from medicine. even if you're heart is golden and you have an unyielding calling for noble work... this will be eroded early on in your training. your soul will be crushed by working 80+hr weeks, ungrateful and non-compliant patients, realizing you traded away your 20s for this, seeing your non-med friends buy houses, go on vacations, get promotions, start families, etc. ...... a career in medicine delays all of this. it's hard to know what this feels like until you are experiencing it. you feel so far behind.

i truly am saddened by my career choice, and the worst part of medicine is how you feel trapped. i often day dream of quitting and doing something else... anything really... but i feel locked in bc my loans and the sacrifice i made to get here. i feel like i need to at least recoup my original investment (aka hit a net worth of $0, which will happen in my mid 30s... depressing thought, really... 10 years of absolute grinding to literally be worth $0. let that sink in)

i wouldn't say i went into medicine for the money, but i damn well believed i would be well compensated for mortgaging my youth. now, i'm not not sure i'll ever be able to overcome losing out 10 years in a bull market and going 300k into the red.


TLDR: i'm not sure what positives there are to becoming a doctor at this point in time. money, sure as ***, ain't one of them

do you think it has anything to do with the specialty choice you picked? I am only starting medical school, but I can remember when I had my heart set on emergency medicine. That was until I got a job working in an ED where I realized the demographics are primarily the poor and elderly who use the ED for non-emergent primary care issues. Along with this many of the patients are rude and ungrateful in this field. I could imagine myself feeling the way you do if I somehow ended up in this specialty, but I have hope that among the many specialties out there I will find one I truly love.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

This is an interesting comparison

Tech or Finance or Medicine or Law: Which Pays the Most?

Which pays better: tech, banking, consulting, medicine, or the law? A new and significant discussion point has been added to the perennial debate about

insights.dice.com

I don’t think anyone will deny the fact that these fields have a higher cap salary potential, but as someone pointed out earlier the salary range in these fields is much greater than medicine. No other field has a higher median salary than medicine. The guarantee for a stable future is what may draw a lot more towards medicine as opposed to these other fields. Also the the cost of living in Silicon Valley for the big tech companies or living in New York working for the big banks/investment companies may heavily offset the yearly earning potential as the COL is so much higher than where your average doc would work.

 

[battie]

Would you expect a decline in med school applications if Medicare for all was passed?? Who would want to go through the rigorous medical training a sub-specialist surgeon, for example, goes through for a 30% decline in compensation with 100-400k in debt....

There are 8000 veterinary student applications for 4000 spots. Veterinary medicine has a similar debt load of 25k-30k/year for in state students, and 50-60k/year for out of state students (just tuition; not including cost of living), and an average starting salary of 85k in small animal GP (less in equine/production med, more in ER or after you specialize). There will always be people willing to take on the debt if it is "their dream to be a doctor".

 

[karayaa]

I don’t think anyone will deny the fact that these fields have a higher cap salary potential, but as someone pointed out earlier the salary range in these fields is much greater than medicine. No other field has a higher median salary than medicine. The guarantee for a stable future is what may draw a lot more towards medicine as opposed to these other fields. Also the the cost of living in Silicon Valley for the big tech companies or living in New York working for the big banks/investment companies may heavily offset the yearly earning potential as the COL is so much higher than where your average doc would work.

What is the median salary in medicine across all fields? 200-300k? Not everyone becomes a gastroenterologist making 500k. The majority of doctors are still in primary care IIRC.
I agree about the job stability.
The other point that's important to include is the debt load+training time - incurring 250k for med school alone, and waiting 3-5 years to start paying that off is a big price to pay, because during that period, you're also earning less income than someone who doesn't have the debt+training cost burden.
It becomes a question of making 200k 2 years after college (age 24) vs making 400k after med school+residency+fellowship (around age 32) with 300k in debt.

 

[BoneWizard]

What is the median salary in medicine across all fields? 200-300k? Not everyone becomes a gastroenterologist making 500k. The majority of doctors are still in primary care IIRC.

2017 MGMA has FM at $240k (290k for hospitalist), IM at 250k ($280k for hospitalist), $230k for general peds and $340k for OB. Average compensation for physicians is pushing mid $350k. Only ~300k of the ~900k active physicians in the country are in FM/IM/Peds with another 50k in OB.\

Academic PC is pretty low though. FM and IM round out at $190k. Peds comes up at $155k.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

What is the median salary in medicine across all fields? 200-300k? Not everyone becomes a gastroenterologist making 500k. The majority of doctors are still in primary care IIRC.
I agree about the job stability.
The other point that's important to include is the debt load+training time - incurring 250k for med school alone, and waiting 3-5 years to start paying that off is a big price to pay, because during that period, you're also earning less income than someone who doesn't have the debt+training cost burden.
It becomes a question of making 200k 2 years after college (age 24) vs making 400k after med school+residency+fellowship (around age 32) with 300k in debt.

I’d put the median closer mid 300’s. But regardless, the lowest earning physicians still make 200k. Yes the debt load is something to consider, but again the financial stability is what makes it worth it, knowing that at minimum your salary will be 200k a year but most likely higher. There is no other field that guarantees this. The people you are talking about making 200k at age 24 are an outlier within their field.

 

[rx001]

Your probability of making 100K after few years and may be 150K after 15-20 years of experiance is High. I dont think you will go beyond that. I know people in software after 20 years of experiance dont make more than 150K. Only AVP(associate vice presidents) or a person leading about 100 people can make that. Those jobs are very challenging and and you are always on the edge. Let us not think that those jobs easy to handle or a 8 to 5 jobs. THose jobs keep the company afloat.

If you are a doctor you start off with 200K. May be it will stagnate at 250K after a few years. That much you are going to make in your rest of your life. THe job security what you are going to get being a doctor is not paralleled by any field. I am talking about high paying jobs which make atleast 150 K.

 

[Alakazam123]

I think it's important to note that we must compare apples to apples. Successful medical school applicants are very good students, incredibly diligent, and have a high intelligence.

If we were to take these same characteristics, and filter students in other fields, then we can find many people who will end up out-earning doctors. Because, the kids who have those skills will end up being the ones getting 4.0 GPAs in STEM fields and then going into one of the major software companies (Google, FB, Microsoft, etc.). These kinds of students will also be the ones to end up in Goldman Sachs for investment banking, or in Harvard Law School, and end up working in a top law firm like Skadden Arps or Davis, Polk, and Wardwell.

Naturally, if you take mediocre students who don't put any effort into their day to day work, and slack off throughout school and coast by on a 2.5 GPA, then of course they will not make anywhere close to where a doctor does. The bottom line is that, compared to other students with similar attributes, doctors do not have such a high earning potential.

 

[el_duderino]

I think it's important to note that we must compare apples to apples. Successful medical school applicants are very good students, incredibly diligent, and have a high intelligence.

If we were to take these same characteristics, and filter students in other fields, then we can find many people who will end up out-earning doctors. Because, the kids who have those skills will end up being the ones getting 4.0 GPAs in STEM fields and then going into one of the major software companies (Google, FB, Microsoft, etc.). These kinds of students will also be the ones to end up in Goldman Sachs for investment banking, or in Harvard Law School, and end up working in a top law firm like Skadden Arps or Davis, Polk, and Wardwell.

Naturally, if you take mediocre students who don't put any effort into their day to day work, and slack off throughout school and coast by on a 2.5 GPA, then of course they will not make anywhere close to where a doctor does. The bottom line is that, compared to other students with similar attributes, doctors do not have such a high earning potential.

Of students accepted to a US medical school, about 90% will end up having a median salary somewhere in the $300,000 range. Virtually guaranteed for life.

There is no field of study that comes close to that, even once you factor in the opportunity cost of school and residency. Not even remotely. Having a valid medical license and board certification virtually guarantees a six-figure salary all the way to retirement age. There is absolutely nothing else like that in America.

 

[Alakazam123]

Of students accepted to a US medical school, about 90% will end up having a median salary somewhere in the $300,000 range. Virtually guaranteed for life.

There is no field of study that comes close to that, even once you factor in the opportunity cost of school and residency. Not even remotely. Having a valid medical license and board certification virtually guarantees a six-figure salary all the way to retirement age. There is absolutely nothing else like that in America.

Since we're talking about the cream of the crop:

1. MBB consulting
2. Bulge-bracket Investment Banker or even some boutiques (Lazard, Piper Jaffray, Evercore, etc.)
3. Software engineer at Google, FB, Microsoft, etc. (including stock options, etc.)
4. Principal Data Scientist at large tech companies (FB, Amazon, Google, IBM, etc.)
5. Tech Sales
6. Big 4 senior managers

Average salaries are skewed by many things (location, practice type, academic vs private, etc.). It's important to note that these other fields may not start out making $300K, but in the time it takes to complete medical school, residency, and fellowship, they could be making a comparable salary. Sure, they may make $30-40K less, but they'll have considerably less student loan burden, little to no call schedule.

Of course if we take the extremely elite (neurosurgeons, orthopedic surgeons, plastic surgeons, etc.) there are not many professions that pay that much. But then again, not many people make it into those fields either, from medical school. About 50% of MD graduates end up in primary care.

More importantly, I respect your opinion, but I feel this thread has run its course. I apologize for the necrobump.

 

[acstylin]

.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

This is an interesting comparison

Tech or Finance or Medicine or Law: Which Pays the Most?

Which pays better: tech, banking, consulting, medicine, or the law? A new and significant discussion point has been added to the perennial debate about

insights.dice.com

Most state schools have the departments and training you need to get a tech job (CS, graphic design, math, econ). I agree that most small private schools probably don't have those departments, but grads can always do a masters to gain those skills. And in tech, yes, you can start with 6 figure salaries.

This in no way refutes my statement. I will repeat myself: most students from state and small private schools don't get six figure starting salaries. My state school alma mater places computer science majors into jobs at big tech companies like Google, Microsoft, and Apple that do offer six figure starting salaries. Yet, the average starting salary for a computer science graduate at my school is $56,000.

Notice that I'm not arguing that becoming a physician is a good financial investment or that it is the best path to becoming wealthy.

 

[FlowRate]

And medicine is not one of those jobs, unless you focus on elective, cash procedures like plastics or derm, or an outpatient field like neurology or obgyn (maybe in rural areas)

Right, not all specialties are like that, but a number of them are. Also psychiatry, appropriately negotiated primary care, etc.

 

[zapproximator1]

Ok, thanks.