What makes something a "professionalism" issue?

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nets445

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Short and simple:

I did something lazy/stupid and got called out for it via email by the course director. The course director included a line that said something like "you are the only student to have... etc in all my years teaching." I am wondering if this will be on my dean's letter where they write about my professionalism. The professor never asked me to meet with him or any committee/etc that would happen for the professionalism breaches I've read on this forum. Also, this is a pre-clinical class and although I don't want to get into specifics of what I did, it is not related to academic dishonesty and that sort of stuff. Any help would be appreciated.
 
nets445 said:
Short and simple:

I did something lazy/stupid and got called out for it via email by the course director. The course director included a line that said something like "you are the only student to have... etc in all my years teaching." I am wondering if this will be on my dean's letter where they write about my professionalism. The professor never asked me to meet with him or any committee/etc that would happen for the professionalism breaches I've read on this forum. Also, this is a pre-clinical class and although I don't want to get into specifics of what I did, it is not related to academic dishonesty and that sort of stuff. Any help would be appreciated.
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Did he fill out a professionalism concern note and turn it in?
 
charmiedermie said:
Did he fill out a professionalism concern note and turn it in?
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I don't think so. He never spoke to me about if afterwards and I never got an email or anything telling me to have a meeting with the professors or deans. You usually would get an email informing you of having a meeting of a professor were to fill in a professionalism form right?
 
At my school we have daily required "small group" activities. We were warned that if we sign in and leave (without staying the length of the session obviously) that they would include it on our dean's letter for residency crap. You might want to ask and see what the deal is just to know where you stand. But in ours I don't believe that you have a meeting with anyone about it although could be an empty threat because supposedly no one has done it/ been caught in years
 
My anatomy Professor wrote me an email after I made a joke about myself that he mistook as applying to him. He invoked the "P" word. I wrote an immediate effusive, gushing, moribund, contrite, apology. I really went full bore. That worked. I watch what I say around anyone anymore. It's med school....I suggest OP apologize even if s/he feels s/he was in the right. Make it an art form.
 
nets445 said:
I don't think so. He never spoke to me about if afterwards and I never got an email or anything telling me to have a meeting with the professors or deans. You usually would get an email informing you of having a meeting of a professor were to fill in a professionalism form right?
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Your course director did speak to you about it in an email that what you did was never done before in all that person's history of teaching med students. That is pretty bad. Nope, the professor does not have to meet with you personally before filling out a professionalism concern note and turning it in. There usually is a time limit to report, that is usually like 30 days from when it happened, but this can vary with policy.
 
charmiedermie said:
Your course director did speak to you about it in an email that what you did was never done before in all that person's history of teaching med students. That is pretty bad. Nope, the professor does not have to meet with you personally before filling out a professionalism concern note and turning it in. There usually is a time limit to report, that is usually like 30 days from when it happened, but this can vary with policy.
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If he were to file a professionalism note, I would get an email about having a meeting with deans/etc right? So if I don't get this email within whatever time period my school is, then I should be safe?
 
nets445 said:
Short and simple:

I did something lazy/stupid and got called out for it via email by the course director. The course director included a line that said something like "you are the only student to have... etc in all my years teaching." I am wondering if this will be on my dean's letter where they write about my professionalism. The professor never asked me to meet with him or any committee/etc that would happen for the professionalism breaches I've read on this forum. Also, this is a pre-clinical class and although I don't want to get into specifics of what I did, it is not related to academic dishonesty and that sort of stuff. Any help would be appreciated.
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Probably won't be a big deal but I'm going to parrot something I've heard from faculty so many times which makes sense. Professionalism isn't an on-off switch. I'm not saying you can't make the transition. It just takes a lot of mental effort to suddenly switch from sneaking your way out of swiping in at 10 AM once a week second year to be expected to show up exactly on time at 5 AM in the morning daily 3rd year and be functional.
 
Backtothebasics8 said:
Probably won't be a big deal but I'm going to parrot something I've heard from faculty so many times which makes sense. Professionalism isn't an on-off switch. I'm not saying you can't make the transition. It just takes a lot of mental effort to suddenly switch from sneaking your way out of swiping in at 10 AM once a week second year to be expected to show up exactly on time at 5 AM in the morning daily 3rd year and be functional.
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This. is. not. true.

Plenty of people "yield-manage" their time.

Some will do this at the margin with an expected value equation: the 5% chance that I get caught times the 2 (?) hours I save = worth it, etc. etc. etc.

As the numbers, implicit or explicit, in the above example change, people change their behavior.

Would I skirt the rules on a stupid mandatory event (though never small group. who would hose their teammates like that?)? Yes. I have.

Do I show up WHEREVER and AT WHATEVER HOUR I say that I will or MUST be? 100% of the time. 100.

Many people straight out of undergrad may not have this kind of discipline, but that does not mean that nobody has it.
 
It really depends on what you said...so all other replies are really invalid. If you made a racist/sexist/etc. comment, you're kinda screwed. Professionalism definitely makes it into your MSPE. You need to apologize for whatever you did/said. Of course this is just n=1, as long as you don't screw up again, you may be okay. But, be careful.
 
Shikima said:
Whatever and whenever someone in power is wanting to make an issue out of for the purposes of social control.
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This, except you say that like it is a bad thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is a universally good or even benign thing... but professionalism is all about social control. That is what it is. It is a culturally bound set of ideas and behaviors, constantly being refined or at least tweaked, enforced by social pressure. It is a way of controlling the range of acceptable behavior within the group that is the profession. There is no value judgment in that statement. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be, or that it is fair or unfair.

Understanding that is the landscape, the savvy professional learns to adapt, to read social cues and respond accordingly. In OP's case, that probably means a sincere apology for behavior that was acknowledge here as being "lazy and stupid." Medical school is not the time to discover one's inability to tolerate social control. There is a lot more of it up ahead.
 
Shikima said:
Uhh... I already said it was about social control?:thinking:
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I'm not disagreeing with you. Maybe I read more into your tone than was meant. I certainly didn't mean my reply to you as any kind of argument with you. More just riffing off something you said.
 
I appreciate the responses everyone. I have already apologized and the professor accepted my apology.

Just to clear the air, what I did had nothing to do with academic dishonesty, skipping mandatory classes or conferences, lying, nor did I make any racist/sexist comments. I just made a very lazy and stupid mistake and got called out for it. I do not want to disclose exactly what I did because my real life identity might be disclosed since I told some of my classmates about it.
 
Its my understanding deans letters are to make you look as strong as possible for residency. I'm not an expert in this but I think a school would REALLY have to dislike you in order to say something in their deans letter that is going to hurt their match list. I also think most preclinical professors have better things to do than to worry about this stuff.
 
nets445 said:
I appreciate the responses everyone. I have already apologized and the professor accepted my apology.

Just to clear the air, what I did had nothing to do with academic dishonesty, skipping mandatory classes or conferences, lying, nor did I make any racist/sexist comments. I just made a very lazy and stupid mistake and got called out for it. I do not want to disclose exactly what I did because my real life identity might be disclosed since I told some of my classmates about it.
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Wait, are you the guy at my school who took a nap in an unoccupied humidor instead of walking across campus to your dorm?!
 
Professionalism is a term that's so vague and misused by people that it makes you wonder if this warrants it being used. Especially when people use it to punish people instead of help them.
I know people do use it appropriately and justified, but the consequences associated with it being used so liberally makes me wonder why police officers or lawyers don't use it as a criminal offense.
"I pulled you over because you were driving unprofessionally. I'm suspending your license, impounding your car and sending you to jail. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be deemed unprofessional."

Sent from my One using Tapatalk
 
MrChance2 said:
Its my understanding deans letters are to make you look as strong as possible for residency. I'm not an expert in this but I think a school would REALLY have to dislike you in order to say something in their deans letter that is going to hurt their match list. I also think most preclinical professors have better things to do than to worry about this stuff.
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I actually took initiative to ask administration about the deans letter for my class and they allowed me to send my whole class the template of the deans letter they send out. In it, there was no place to complain about a student's lack of professionalism. I think professionalism will likely be judged 3rd year in clinic if you show up late or are rude/whatnot. As for not making a small group in 1st / 2nd year, I don't know if that's something schools will look at. I've seen people on SDN saying that at their school, their deans letter would include it, but I can say with certainty that ours doesn't and when discussing the deans letter with faculty, they told us it really is a piece of paper meant to make us look good. Even if we are in the bottom 25 percent of the class, the deans letter will says we are "good medical students"
 
MrChance2 said:
Its my understanding deans letters are to make you look as strong as possible for residency. I'm not an expert in this but I think a school would REALLY have to dislike you in order to say something in their deans letter that is going to hurt their match list.
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All true, and for most students any threat regarding their deans letter is an empty one. That said, there are occasional medical students who can pass the tests but should not, for various reasons, be physicians. Monitoring professionalism, or lack thereof, is the soft mechanism by which schools now protect the public (and their reputations). Unfortunately a lot of minor infractions get recorded in the process.
 
Med Ed said:
I would love to hear a truly useful definition of the term. Any suggestions?
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: the skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well

Well,
There you have it. Useful? Not really because it is such a loose term that you can literally accuse anyone for being unprofessional for multitudes of reasons.
Didn't throw away your trash properly?
Didn't hold the elevator?
Frowned?
I mean, I hate to say it, but if I were a complete selfish jerk, I could easily see myself accusing everyone for being unprofessional. And that's the problem: its how people use it the wrong way.

Just to be clear: I'm saying that there are some behavior that can be "unprofessional" but it doesn't warrant being automatically called unprofessional as a person or punishing them by the ramifications of that mark.

Sent from my One using Tapatalk
 
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Kaustikos said:
Well, There you have it. Useful? Not really because it is such a loose term that you can literally accuse anyone for being unprofessional for multitudes of reasons.
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That's the rub, isn't it? We know something exists, but the lack of a useful definition makes it extremely difficult to write good, clear policy around the issue. Hence, most schools seem to have adopted the approach of collecting as much data as possible on potentially unprofessional behavior, and then letting a committee or designee sort out which offenses rise to the level of being significant. Is this a perfect or even desirable solution? Not really, but all things considered it is difficult to pose a viable alternative.
 
Med Ed said:
That's the rub, isn't it? We know something exists, but the lack of a useful definition makes it extremely difficult to write good, clear policy around the issue. Hence, most schools seem to have adopted the approach of collecting as much data as possible on potentially unprofessional behavior, and then letting a committee or designee sort out which offenses rise to the level of being significant. Is this a perfect or even desirable solution? Not really, but all things considered it is difficult to pose a viable alternative.
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Agreed. Having been a victim of said action (using lies), I have to agree that I'm not a fan nor think people are capable of appropriately using that term. But then lies the paradox you bring up of how loose and vague the term is, that it's difficult to even argue it.
At this point it's like people use it as a justifiable offense because they don't like you.

Sent from my One using Tapatalk
 
Kaustikos said:
Professionalism is a term that's so vague and misused by people that it makes you wonder if this warrants it being used. Especially when people use it to punish people instead of help them.
I know people do use it appropriately and justified, but the consequences associated with it being used so liberally makes me wonder why police officers or lawyers don't use it as a criminal offense.
"I pulled you over because you were driving unprofessionally. I'm suspending your license, impounding your car and sending you to jail. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be deemed unprofessional."

Sent from my One using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
You better watch out, the usual egotists here will say you driving unprofessionally will be bad for patient care, just like having your cell phone go off in class.
Backtothebasics8 said:
I actually took initiative to ask administration about the deans letter for my class and they allowed me to send my whole class the template of the deans letter they send out. In it, there was no place to complain about a student's lack of professionalism. I think professionalism will likely be judged 3rd year in clinic if you show up late or are rude/whatnot. As for not making a small group in 1st / 2nd year, I don't know if that's something schools will look at. I've seen people on SDN saying that at their school, their deans letter would include it, but I can say with certainty that ours doesn't and when discussing the deans letter with faculty, they told us it really is a piece of paper meant to make us look good. Even if we are in the bottom 25 percent of the class, the deans letter will says we are "good medical students"
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Unprofessionalism goes under the academic history section of the MSPE under adverse actions, just like repeating a year or being put on academic probation would be mentioned there. Also being called a good medical student identifies you as the bottom of the class, since it is the last MSPE adjective used.
 
Med Ed said:
That's the rub, isn't it? We know something exists, but the lack of a useful definition makes it extremely difficult to write good, clear policy around the issue. Hence, most schools seem to have adopted the approach of collecting as much data as possible on potentially unprofessional behavior, and then letting a committee or designee sort out which offenses rise to the level of being significant. Is this a perfect or even desirable solution? Not really, but all things considered it is difficult to pose a viable alternative.
Click to expand...
But don't you get a lot of false positives that way? You think that is good for the student body?
 
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charmiedermie said:
But don't you get a lot of false positives that way? You think that is good for the student body?
Click to expand...

You do, but just because something gets reported as unprofessional does not mean anything happens with the complaint. In my experience the majority are disregarded. A few rise to the level of requiring a brief conversation between the student and Dean of Student Affairs. Students with true, chronic, non-remediable professionalism issues ideally get axed before taking step 1. When something does creep into the MSPE is usually derives from serious misbehavior on the wards. And I'm not talking about tardiness.
 
Good question!!

All the Clinical deans I've worked with had no incentive to harm a student's chances to graduate and get into a residency, lest it reflect poorly on the school.

You have to do something really egregious, in which case they'll suspend or dismiss you.


nets445 said:
Short and simple:

I did something lazy/stupid and got called out for it via email by the course director. The course director included a line that said something like "you are the only student to have... etc in all my years teaching." I am wondering if this will be on my dean's letter where they write about my professionalism. The professor never asked me to meet with him or any committee/etc that would happen for the professionalism breaches I've read on this forum. Also, this is a pre-clinical class and although I don't want to get into specifics of what I did, it is not related to academic dishonesty and that sort of stuff. Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
The definition school's use for "unprofessional" is pretty much anything they don't like. Mind your p's and q's, show up on time and dressed properly, and don't lie....you'll be safe most of the time
 
Vague suspicious words like this are all about the user. Most times, saying more about them than their target.

I stay the F away from crusaders who are as passionate as they are uninsifhtful with its use. You know that person is a fascist with a Napolean complex and a *****ic moral certainty.

Those people are dangerous in medical hierarchy. So I like the word for flagging these freaks.
 
Professionalism is the word people use when they don't like what you're doing, it has nothing to do with actually being professional. Half the time it is used to call out anything that doesn't tow the party line. On my class facebook there's always someone who's busy rimming the administration and calling people out for professionalism.
 
bd290 said:
Professionalism is the word people use when they don't like what you're doing, it has nothing to do with actually being professional. Half the time it is used to call out anything that doesn't tow the party line. On my class facebook there's always someone who's busy rimming the administration and calling people out for professionalism.
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Do we go to the same school?
 
sb247 said:
The definition school's use for "unprofessional" is pretty much anything they don't like. Mind your p's and q's, show up on time and dressed properly, and don't lie....you'll be safe most of the time
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Yup
bd290 said:
Professionalism is the word people use when they don't like what you're doing, it has nothing to do with actually being professional. Half the time it is used to call out anything that doesn't tow the party line. On my class facebook there's always someone who's busy rimming the administration and calling people out for professionalism.
Click to expand...
Yup Yup Yup.

Yet to see it in a good way. Or, ya know, someone calling someone else as professional. Its a myth like magic lamps, dragons or happy marriages.
 
Sometimes these incidents are legitimate ways to punish immoral students.

Sometimes "Professionalism" is a way for unscrupulous administrators to "deal with" students that are outspoken (usually about their un-scrupulosity) and/or that they don't like for whatever reasons. "Professionalism Committees" in this sense are more like Kangaroo Courts that run show trials.
 
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This is what comes to mind, but I'm sure there's more:

In those instances where it's " justified", unprofessional behavior might be anger management issues, maybe implied threats of physical violence, vague unproven or poorly defined incidents of perceived sexual harassment, comments that would be described as "micro- aggressions", inappropriate or insensitive jokes ( sexual, racist, religious, or just wrong place, wrong time), failure to maintain an appropriate affect in clinical situations, or overall bad attitude, however you wish to define it. Also, being rude to others, including those above you , faculty, attendings, other students, residents, nurses, and/or support staff. Also, failure to do what you're told to do, also lying, such as about assignments you were supposed to do, and especially on clinical rotations: Lying about orders you didn't write, or did write but shouldn't have, lying about exam findings and lab results and inventing parts of the history and physical. I'm sure there are other transgressions that would qualify, but those are what come to mind right now.
 
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