What? PCAT Not Required For Pharmacy School Admittance?

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Also, PCAT scores are highly correlated with NAPLEX scores.

I read that study rxmarine posted...ugh.

It was ONE study, done on a population at ONE school (texas tech or something), on a student population of <80 per class from OVER TEN years ago. Not exactly a representative sample. Here, I have numbers, your sample (as of 2003...I know, outside of the sample years, but only by 2):

http://www.ttuhsc.edu/sop/programs/pharmd/studentstats.aspx

75% white, 79 students admitted and 78 of them were in state texas residents (1/2 of them from west texas).

I'm sorry but I need more compelling evidence before I can call this horse race.

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specifically went to UOP for pre-pharm program so I wouldn't have to take another standardized test...SAT was enough for me in my lifetime
 
With that said, I'm an academic snob and so are most of my friends.

On the other hand, I have common-ass hilljack sense. And I see that I would have paid $700/semester (actually, I got a scholarship and it was free) for my first two years and I'm probably less in debt than you and your dummy snobified friends that essentially paid for a name brand. And we all wound up in the same place. I mean, really...who was smarter?
 
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On the other hand, I have common-ass hilljack sense. And I see that I would have paid $700/semester (actually, I got a scholarship and it was free) for my first two years and I'm probably less in debt than you and your dummy snobified friends that essentially paid for a name brand. And we all wound up in the same place. I mean, really...who was smarter?

You're forgetting me/my snob friends had their tuition and lifestyles subsidized by parents
 
I didn't find that at all. I found that my CC professors didn't give a **** about us; they wanted to go home, whereas my university profs were there to answer questions. In my CC classes, it was like the prof wanted to babysit you - took attendance, spoonfed material and in some classes forced us to spend class time working on papers! When in the WORLD would a university do that? (And yes, I mean forced; if you left, your final grade would drop by a half a grade point automatically.)

No, I prefer to be responsible for my own grade. I don't think it's appropriate to spend class time doing homework, but CCs think that is, apparently. Maybe my CC experience is different than yours, but it is my experience and it is what I will continue to view CC classes as - that is, easy and inappropriately taught.

LMAO....what CC did you go to? St. Bubba's Vocational Junior College?

Man...mine was nothing like that. Attendance? Class time writing? :laugh:
 
You're forgetting me/my snob friends had their tuition and lifestyles subsidized by parents

Oh. The opinions of rich kids don't matter. We've already proven this. Your lack of real life experience nullifies any viewpoint you may have. In fact, the reality is probably just the opposite of your opinion.
 
And Maturity is the winning word! Only problem is, we can't really measure maturity based on a formal interview that students have a chance to prepare for. Of course, this is all coming from one of the 0-6 students at FAMU.

Can't guage maturity by a standardized test either. I don't think the PCAT really equalizes much, but what do I know, I never took it.
 
LMAO....what CC did you go to? St. Bubba's Vocational Junior College?

Man...mine was nothing like that. Attendance? Class time writing? :laugh:

I concur. Carboxide, I'm sorry your CC experience sucked, but you seem to be in the minority in that respect. The fact that a guy like Mike started off in CC should speak volumes about whether or not CC's can provide a quality education.
 
Oh. The opinions of rich kids don't matter. We've already proven this. Your lack of real life experience nullifies any viewpoint you may have. In fact, the reality is probably just the opposite of your opinion.

haha, oh i suppose, but there's so many of us that it kind of becomes reality.
 
I think if we do not have Pcat, there will be plenty of people who are ready for applying to pharmacy school. I believe that many people have changed their career to a new one due to the Pcat. Many people just have a hard time to pass.
 
I think if we do not have Pcat, there will be plenty of people who are ready for applying to pharmacy school. I believe that many people have changed their career to a new one due to the Pcat. Many people just have a hard time to pass.

:confused:
 
PCAT is really not that big deal of a test. Non-pcat schools in my opinion are way more challenging to apply to than all the PCAT schools I applied to. Most had a really brief supplemental application.


My PCAT studying overall ~ 2 months - > interviews nearly at every school I applied to


UCSF supplemental application - months and months of filling it out and perfecting every word and rewriting the essays. This took much much more effort than the PCAT studying overall. In that sense, if looking at just amount of effort and time spent, as a selection criteria PCAT can't even be compared to the difficulty of the application process to non-pcat schools.
 
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The experiences at CA schools aren't really relative to the rest of us in the USA. Which is why I ignored the CA schools and whether they required the PCAT.

In CA at a four-year university...it doesn't matter if you're rich or not...your gettin a good chunk of change to attend... The education system is much different.

How much does CA charge their residents for undergraduate tuition at a public university?

You look at the rest of the country...and you have smart kids with middle-class parents who can't afford for their kid to pay room/board AND tuition (yes, most states don't pay for their residents tuition...and in fact have been cutting appropriations to universities) . You've got middle aged people going back to school at CC because they have a family....and it's the best financial decision.

Like WVUPharm2007 said:

On the other hand, I have common-ass hilljack sense. And I see that I would have paid $700/semester (actually, I got a scholarship and it was free) for my first two years and I'm probably less in debt than you and your dummy snobified friends that essentially paid for a name brand. And we all wound up in the same place. I mean, really...who was smarter?
:laugh:

Ironically, CA is paying wages in IOU's...having parades for sports teams...and hosting million dollar funerals for a guy that settled out of court on molestation charges...:thumbup:

And in an example of tragic irony...just cut more than $2.5 billion in funding from higher education
The agreement also cuts $2.8 billion from the University of California and California State University systems


That's kind of beside the point tho....I could see how an established private school with a renowned curriculum like, Purdue, would not need to require PCAT...but how the hell does some new kid on the block, unproven program not require it?

Does the $30K/year tuition compensate? I guess I'll have to try and find out what their NAPLEX pass rates end up being.

And what I'm really getting at is how do ANY of the new colleges pass rates compare to established colleges???
 
And what I'm really getting at is how do ANY of the new colleges pass rates compare to established colleges???


I don't know but they are obviously doing it to attract applicants. I mean how many people are comfortable applying to a newly opened schools that don't have full accreditation yet ?
 
I don't know but they are obviously doing it to attract applicants. I mean how many people are comfortable applying to a newly opened schools that don't have full accreditation yet ?

The ones who couldn't get into the established schools???:) Hence, no PCAT.

I'll be interested in seeing NAPLEX pass rates in the future....it may be much ado about nothing...maybe not...pass rates can always be offset by having a high attrition rate.
 
LMAO....what CC did you go to? St. Bubba's Vocational Junior College?

Man...mine was nothing like that. Attendance? Class time writing? :laugh:


:laugh: See, now you see why I thought my CC experience was terrible! But I, like all of you, am a product of my experiences. What it comes down to, and why I brought it up in the first place, was to show that this is why the PCAT is a good thing - because with a PCAT score, it becomes clearer what you actually learned.
 
Ironically, CA is paying wages in IOU's...having parades for sports teams...and hosting million dollar funerals for a guy that settled out of court on molestation charges...:thumbup:

Okay this is what happens when non-californians start talking about stuff within the state. Let me clarify.

1) IOU's went to vendors, wages paid by the state are mandated to be cash. Semantics, but an important one at that. A pharmacist working for the state gets paid, the company providing janitorial supplies does not.

2) Parades for sports teams...heck yeah. This was the City of Los Angeles, not the State of California, two different entities and accounts. The Laker parade was paid for by AEG/private donations. The funeral was paid by the city of LA...mind you, the guy was never convicted. So, in the eyes of the law, he has the same status and you/me (unless you were convicted of stuff).

That is all...just get your facts right when criticizing the fruits and nuts of California :luck:
 
I'll be interested in seeing NAPLEX pass rates in the future....it may be much ado about nothing...maybe not...pass rates can always be offset by having a high attrition rate.

Okay back to topic... NAPLEX is not a horribly difficult test, this isn't like USMLE, I think even WVU would agree there. The test measures "minimal competency" and is not an indicator on how "good" of a pharmacist you are.

I'll have to dig up numbers later, but pass rates have generally been high even in new programs that have opened after 2000. You probably won't see the 95-100% pass rates in schools like UCSF, USC, Western, etc... but I believe the schools clear the national average.

I think the only time I saw pass rates substantially drop was at Howard? I think in '05 or around then the pass rate was a dismal 50%. That's not exactly a "new" program either. Usually I cite my #'s but I just woke up, I'll get them later.

EDIT:

Okay here we go, this is from http://www.nabp.net/ftpfiles/bulletins/NaplexSPR.pdf
Look for blank cells indicating the school is new and go to the right to find the first graduating class. Here are some pass rates:

UCSD -- 100% (first graduating class 2006)
LECOM -- 71% (1st class 2005), this jumps to 91% for the next class.
PBA -- 86% (2005)

The lowest pass rate for '04 is Howard at 83%, still close to the nat'l average.
 
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I went to a CC and did not regret it one bit. I had a great time, learned allot and saved some money. But your statement confuses me. You say your friends go to CC after failing at a University and then say CC are not for losers? I don't mean to be nit-picky but saying that people who drop out of University go to CC is like saying CC's are for losers. LOL

As for people not caring where you went to college, in my experence this has been true. I mean unless you are on the extremes (online degree vs. Yale), who cares? My two cents.


They didn't fail, they just dropped out. Actually one girl I know had straight As, but she didn't like the university she was at and spent her sophomore year at CC, and will be attending another college this Fall. And then you do have the ones who did not transition well and are now at CC figuring out their plans. And we thought that people who went to CC were losers while still in high school, not yet in college. So what I was saying is that no one in my graduating class wanted to say they were attending CC in the senior class paper, and yet it seems almost a third of everyone I know is now at CC. People transfer, reevaluate life, etc. Back in the day, we were academic ****** that wanted to get into the brand schools, but now as actual college students we figured out that people take their own journeys. It seems less common nowadays to have the typical college experience and to spend 4 years at a single university.
 
The ones who couldn't get into the established schools???:) Hence, no PCAT.

Third point (i like this thread) I'm going to make is that I applied to two new programs (as in pre-candidate and candidate at the time, one private one public) and they both required the PCAT and I got in. I had a horrid GPA (~3.0) but a 92 PCAT and was rejected by the one california school I applied to.

My experience might be the exception here, but it's odd the new programs I applied to required the test.
 
Okay back to topic... NAPLEX is not a horribly difficult test, this isn't like USMLE, I think even WVU would agree there. The test measures "minimal competency" and is not an indicator on how "good" of a pharmacist you are.

Absolutely. Last year, the NABP offered the CPOE exam to students enrolled in all years; it was basically the NAPLEX without the computerized question randomization.

I took it as a P1 and hadn't taken 3/4 of the classes that it was testing my knowledge of, but I still killed it. The only sections I got less than 90% (not percentile) on were the basic science stuff that I had stopped caring about the second I took the final. I also got a 0 on the ethics section, but that's another story for another day.

Pretty much everyone I spoke to felt the same way about the test, in that it was complete garbage and they couldn't believe the NAPLEX was that easy. I think the nursing exam is harder, based on the review books I've seen.
 
FAMU doesn't require the PCAT, but there are rumors that they are going to start requiring it soon. I hate it, to be honest. My class is pretty much 50% deserving students (mostly transfer students) and 50% students that shouldn't be in the college, but they got admittance because they did undergrad at FAMU. Most of those students just want money. But of course, some of the deserving students are only in it for the money, too.

As far as the tuition, FAMU is among the cheapest pharmacy school in the nation...at least for in state tuition.


Wow as a fellow FAMU Student in your class I strongly disagree about how you "judge" your own class, just because people aren't in the forefront constantly showcasing their good grades doesn't mean they don't get them, there a ALOT of transitional students that get awesome grades that are just quiet about it. Also not all of the transfer students get get good grades because a lot of them are taking more than Intro PDA right now. So the breakdown btwn. good and bad students isnt just transfer vs. nonstransfer.

As far as the PCAT what's the big deal about it not being mandatory, if someone slides into pharmacy school not knowing their info. they won't make it, and plus EVERYONE has to take the NAPLEX which is the most important exam, so if the slide through pharmacy school then they'll fail the NAPLEX but I'm sure you know that FAMU has 100% passive rate of the NAPLEX which is waaaay more important than requiring the PCAT:eyebrow:
 
Wow as a fellow FAMU Student in your class I strongly disagree about how you "judge" your own class, just because people aren't in the forefront constantly showcasing their good grades doesn't mean they don't get them, there a ALOT of transitional students that get awesome grades that are just quiet about it. Also not all of the transfer students get get good grades because a lot of them are taking more than Intro PDA right now. So the breakdown btwn. good and bad students isnt just transfer vs. nonstransfer.

As far as the PCAT what's the big deal about it not being mandatory, if someone slides into pharmacy school not knowing their info. they won't make it, and plus EVERYONE has to take the NAPLEX which is the most important exam, so if the slide through pharmacy school then they'll fail the NAPLEX but I'm sure you know that FAMU has 100% passive rate of the NAPLEX which is waaaay more important than requiring the PCAT:eyebrow:


It seems as if you're taking a personal shot at me because you know who I am by stating "showcasing their good grades." This has nothing to do with grades. Rather, it has to do with people not doing what they need to do to become a good, knowledgeable pharmacist. I'm sure there are people like that at every school, but I feel like it is easier for people to get into a school where they don't have to put time into learning a few things to pass a standardized test.


And, so you know, FAMU hasn't had a 100% passage rate on the NAPLEX for at least 2 years, that I know of. I have a link somewhere around here that I'll post. When I find it I'll post it.

EDIT: Here's a link with the statistics for first time passage rates of the NAPLEX for several schools

http://www.nabp.net/ftpfiles/bulletins/NaplexSPR.pdf
 
I think it would be more useful if students were required to be certified pharmacy techs before starting pharmacy school - than judging students based on a test like the PCAT.

On rotations, I don't feel as though I'm playing catch-up like some students. If students could start with a decent foundation in the practice of pharmacy, then I think that they would get a lot more out of pharmacy school.


Go ahead... flame me. Have fun! ;)
 
I think it would be more useful if students were required to be certified pharmacy techs before starting pharmacy school - than judging students based on a test like the PCAT.

On rotations, I don't feel as though I'm playing catch-up like some students. If students could start with a decent foundation in the practice of pharmacy, then I think that they would get a lot more out of pharmacy school.


Go ahead... flame me. Have fun! ;)


Because it's late, I have a headache, and I have a long day tomorrow I'll resist temptation and save myself from looking like an idiot :laugh:.
 
I agree with you PharmDstudent, ppl should be require to be pharm techs instead of depending on a test like the pcat because some ppl who do amazing on the pcat end up in pharmacy school for the wrong reasons and wind up dropping out cause they could not handle it.
 
I agree with you PharmDstudent, ppl should be require to be pharm techs instead of depending on a test like the pcat because some ppl who do amazing on the pcat end up in pharmacy school for the wrong reasons and wind up dropping out cause they could not handle it.

I hate to tell you but the PTCE is even more of a joke than the PCAT or NAPLEX could possibly be. (going on heresay for the latter as I have taken neither.) When I took the PTCE in 2007 it was no harder than introductory math with a few drug category questions and some administrative stuff. Certainly no way indicative of pharmacy aptitude, let alone ability to learn difficult material. Now if becoming a certified pharm tech actually meant class time with intern hours, then maybe it would mean something. At least it would give you experience behind the counter, but given the number of states that accept the PTCE as it's sole criteria for certification/licensure, nah, not good enough.
 
I think it would be more useful if students were required to be certified pharmacy techs before starting pharmacy school - than judging students based on a test like the PCAT.

Go ahead... flame me. Have fun! ;)

I'm gonna flame you like a gay man at mardi gras :laugh:

Yes, the PTCE is a WORSE joke than the PCAT. Any idiot can pass that exam with flying colors. That's indicative of your ability to pay for the exam, nothing more.

But what's worse is people paying $10k+ to become pharm techs, that's just plain sad.
 
But what's worse is people paying $10k+ to become pharm techs, that's just plain sad.

We had one of those apply for a pharmacy volunteer position at the hospital... I debated whether to tell him what a waste that is or not, and I decided the best course of action is just to let it ride.

But I wanted to...
 
I'm not trying to compare the PCAT with the PTCE, I'll have you know. :cool:

In this state, a certified pharmacy technician needs X number of hours of experience to become "certified" in addition to passing the PTCE.




What exactly does the PCAT have to do with the practice of pharmacy? Nothing... Therefore, it's worthless- IMO. (At least the PTCE tests your knowledge of brands/generics, how to use the aliquot method, dosage conversions, etc.-- so that you can have that kind of basic stuff out of the way before starting pharmacy school...)
 
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I concur. Carboxide, I'm sorry your CC experience sucked, but you seem to be in the minority in that respect. The fact that a guy like Mike started off in CC should speak volumes about whether or not CC's can provide a quality education.

Well you can also say that people who didn't make it through the system aren't going to come here and post their failures. For all the miracle stories about people who say they found their CC education to be superior across the board, think about the opposite as to how many students fall through the cracks. It's a fallacy of perception. There's no denying the gems that come from these institutions, but to make sweeping generalizations about CCs being superior isn't exactly a well-accepted notion in academia.
 
About as fallacious as universities being "across the board" superior.

Inevitably the issue comes down to one needing case-by-base analysis.

point taken, but i guess a correlary to that would be how much more successful is the average university student as compared to the CC?
 
Well you can also say that people who didn't make it through the system aren't going to come here and post their failures. For all the miracle stories about people who say they found their CC education to be superior across the board, think about the opposite as to how many students fall through the cracks. It's a fallacy of perception. There's no denying the gems that come from these institutions, but to make sweeping generalizations about CCs being superior isn't exactly a well-accepted notion in academia.

I'm not necessarily trying to imply that CCs are superior to a University. That would, as you said, be a very sweeping and fallacy-ridden generalization. Moreso that a CC education is not necessarily inferior simply because it is a CC. Any one person's education will ultimately be what they make out of it.
 
point taken, but i guess a correlary to that would be how much more successful is the average university student as compared to the CC?

That would be a very difficult study to do. Way too many nuances and gray areas. Universities generally offer more programs and have far more students, students may bounce back and forth between universities and CCs, plus many CC students go on to Universities, thus making them, to an extent, a University student. After all, you can't become a pharmacist with just an Associate's.
 
That would be a very difficult study to do. Way too many nuances and gray areas. Universities generally offer more programs and have far more students, students may bounce back and forth between universities and CCs, plus many CC students go on to Universities, thus making them, to an extent, a University student. After all, you can't become a pharmacist with just an Associate's.

Some people can, but.....:p

Yeah, I went to 2 universities and 2 CCs so my performance isn't solely indicative of either of the 4 institutions.
 
I went to 0-6 program and did not take the PCAT. However the few traditional "PHARMCAS" applicants that were in my class had to take the PCAT. I supposed the equalizer that is the PCAT isn't necessary when you know the students in your program are taking all the prereqs at your school and everyone is in the same classes. We were not allowed to take any science/math or any other prereq courses at other schools or community colleges. I would say once pharmacy school started we only lost 2 or 3 people from our class.
 
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