What schools would I be competitive at?

[franniemeow07]

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Hey guys, sorry to bother you all with this kind of post. I am doing some research on programs and I am having a really hard time gauging which schools I would be competitive at. I know a lot of you a gurus out there, so I was hoping what schools you could recommend for someone with my profile:

GPA: about ~3.5 (dunno exactly BCPM or AO GPA yet)
MCAT: 35
Research: 3+ years in same genetics lab, possible publication (not a piggy back onto a postdoc/grad student, all my own 🙂); industry internship at Amgen
Other: research scholarships, patient and non-patient contact volunteering, rural clinic shadowing, a cappella, tutoring

I am really liking the research that I am doing (cell-based assays looking at proteins involved in DNA repair), and would probably want to do something similar in PhD. Of course, I am definitely open to other areas as well.

I'd like to stay on the West coast, or go East coast as well, but I know that I'll go anywhere that will accept me 🙂

 

[jlamacc1]

Hey guys, sorry to bother you all with this kind of post. I am doing some research on programs and I am having a really hard time gauging which schools I would be competitive at. I know a lot of you a gurus out there, so I was hoping what schools you could recommend for someone with my profile:

GPA: about ~3.5 (dunno exactly BCPM or AO GPA yet)
MCAT: 35
Research: 3+ years in same genetics lab, possible publication (not a piggy back onto a postdoc/grad student, all my own 🙂); industry internship at Amgen
Other: research scholarships, patient and non-patient contact volunteering, rural clinic shadowing, a cappella, tutoring

I am really liking the research that I am doing (cell-based assays looking at proteins involved in DNA repair), and would probably want to do something similar in PhD. Of course, I am definitely open to other areas as well.

I'd like to stay on the West coast, or go East coast as well, but I know that I'll go anywhere that will accept me 🙂

First of all, the research profile is the most important part of the MD-PhD application, and it appears that you have a great one. This alone can get you a loooong way in the process. You also have a solid MCAT/GPA complex (the GPA's a bit low for MSTP, but the MCAT score compensates somewhat) and ample clinical exposure. So, rest assured, you are probably competitive at more than a handful of really great programs. I would recommend applying broadly, but not applying to any programs that you couldn't see yourself at (for instance, if you want to stay on the coasts, so don't apply to WashU or U. Chicago). This may sound obvious, but it's amazing how many applicants (including myself) waste time and money filling out secondaries to places they'd never go. Specific programs might include: U. Washington (great program), UCSD, UCSF, UCI, Albert Einstein, Mount Sinai, Oregon Health Science U., UPenn, South Carolina (Charleston = WOW),...
Check out the NIH MSTP directory page for program websites: http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/InstPredoc/PredocInst-MSTP.htm

 

[franniemeow07]

Do you guys think I would even have a chance at the California schools (i.e. UCSF, UCSD, UCLA, UCI, Stanford)? These are stellar programs to begin with, but I am also so sick of Seattle weather and I would really love to be in a place with a lot of sun. Of course it's a rather superficial reason, but it is the next 8 years of my life that we're talking about, right?

Problem is, I've been doing research and most of the people they accept appear to have to a California school for undergrad and/or some prestigious Ivy League. I'm from a state school, and it seems like someone with my GPA/MCAT from an Ivy League would get some kind of non-acknowledged competitive edge over me.

 

[OncDoc19]

Do you guys think I would even have a chance at the California schools (i.e. UCSF, UCSD, UCLA, UCI, Stanford)? These are stellar programs to begin with, but I am also so sick of Seattle weather and I would really love to be in a place with a lot of sun. Of course it's a rather superficial reason, but it is the next 8 years of my life that we're talking about, right?

Problem is, I've been doing research and most of the people they accept appear to have to a California school for undergrad and/or some prestigious Ivy League. I'm from a state school, and it seems like someone with my GPA/MCAT from an Ivy League would get some kind of non-acknowledged competitive edge over me.

If you are just looking at a list of current students in the program and where they did undergrad you may get a somewhat skewed idea of the characteristics of accepted applicants. First, not everyone wants to move so the fact that Cali undergrads enter Cali MSTPs may indicate simply that Cali students tend to want to stay in the state. Additionally, lots of east coast people prefer the east and wouldn't want to move across the country. Secondly, you're right that coming from a state school you may feel out of place at interviews. In my experience most of the people at my interviews have been Ivy Leaguers (I am from a state school). I feel like part of this is just that more people from those schools apply. I go to a Big Ten school but I only know of 1 other person from my university applying this year.

I applied to 2 Cali schools - UCLA and UCSF and interviewed at UCLA. Given the post-interview response I have gotten I feel that I have a fairly good shot at being accepted there. I understand your concerns completely and I must say I have felt like the token non-Ivy Leaguer at many of my interviews. There's nothing wrong with going into the process with the attitude that you need to have a stellar app to be competitive but really I think you will be fine.

 

[franniemeow07]

What about this list? Too many reach schools? What are some good "safeties"? Thanks for any input!

UW

Stanford
UCSD
UCLA
UCSF
UCI

Yale

Northwestern
Chicago

Harvard
Tufts

WashU

AECOM
Columbia
Mount Sinai
Tri-I
NYU

Case Western

UPenn
Pitt

 

[OncDoc19]

What about this list? Too many reach schools? What are some good "safeties"? Thanks for any input!

UW

Stanford
UCSD
UCLA
UCSF
UCI

Yale

Northwestern
Chicago

Harvard
Tufts

WashU

AECOM
Columbia
Mount Sinai
Tri-I
NYU

Case Western

UPenn
Pitt

Unless you have nothing going on this summer I would cut it down to 15. 20 schools is a lot of secondaries. Even with 13 I was exhausted. I would cut Tufts, either AECOM or NYU, and maybe Case if you prefer a city. Look into the research at each school and cut a few more based on that.

 

[beats]

I'll chime in because I have stats pretty similar to yours. All the schools you mentioned are fine, but I'd add a few more.

Here's what I've experienced. Everyone says that what matters most is your research experience. I haven't found this to be the case completely. I have four years experience (2 of those years full time) and have a few pubs (one first author, two in review) and numerous presentations (posters, abstracts, etc.)

I've gotten lots of interviews- but I haven't gotten any acceptances. I haven't given up yet but it's been a hard process. I know the schools at which I've interviewed are accepting people- but the only ones they are accepting have 37+ MCAT and 3.7+ GPA. I think I'll be accepted somewhere in the end... but I have to wait until the people they really want go elsewhere. I don't want to sound discouraging because it's definitely doable. I just wish I had applied a little differently (i.e. more broadly)

 

[seraph524]

It's really hard to judge which schools to apply to. You don't want to over-estimate yourself, but at the same time, don't want to regret with "what-ifs." The only way is to apply to a large number of schools, and see how schools are responding to you in terms of interviews/acceptances, and adjust accordingly. I sent primaries to 22 schools, and sent secondaries to 19 schools, but eventually settled on 12 schools to focus on. Yes, I spent an awful lot of money and time, but in the long run, the investment is well worth it.

 

[magwi11]

I agree with this. My GPA and MCAT were very close to your range, and my research is pretty solid (2.5 years full time, 2 pubs, lots of abstracts and conferences). I've had some luck and I'm happy with the process overall, but especially with my decision to apply very broadly. I sent primaries to 20 schools and secondaries to 18. Sure, it takes a LOT of time and money, but I think it's worth it to know that you've gotten yourself out there (and to avoid the chance of ever having to do this again.) The investment was certainly worth it.

It's really hard to judge which schools to apply to. You don't want to over-estimate yourself, but at the same time, don't want to regret with "what-ifs." The only way is to apply to a large number of schools, and see how schools are responding to you in terms of interviews/acceptances, and adjust accordingly. I sent primaries to 22 schools, and sent secondaries to 19 schools, but eventually settled on 12 schools to focus on. Yes, I spent an awful lot of money and time, but in the long run, the investment is well worth it.

 

[LunderKind]

UW
Stanford
UCSD
UCLA
UCSF
UCI
Yale
Northwestern
Chicago
Harvard
Tufts
WashU
AECOM
Columbia
Mount Sinai
Tri-I
NYU
Case Western
UPenn
Pitt

I do not think you should sell yourself short, but I do think the point that a lot of people have made...to apply broadly...is a good one. If you do choose to apply to several schools, just make sure you are fully aware of the amount of time you will need to put into the process (and definitely get your primary done right away).

Out of curiosity, though, what is motivating your school choices? It seems you have listed a lot of "big name" schools in really desirable locations. I would really suggest considering the research and how well it matches your interests at a particular institution over name or local. A lot of this process is random, and schools want to take students they think would be a good "fit" (a vague concept, I know) for their program. If you were asked in an interview why you want to go to X school, would you have an answer beyond "I want to live in CA or NYC"?

 

[meowkat444]

I want to second (third? fourth?) the "apply broadly" suggestions. 20 secondaries isn't *that* bad (I did 25), and if it allows you to apply to all of your dream schools while still keeping a good shot of an acceptance, it's worth it. You do NOT want to have to reapply. It means that you will be working a lot on secondaries, but it's certainly doable even without taking the summer off. Good luck 🙂

 

[seraph524]

Right, and if you are worried that you might be flooded with secondaries, people have posted secondary prompts on this website, so you can start working on them if you have the time.

Also, in my experience, once you have written 3-4 unique essays, you can pretty much copy and paste to answer every other secondary.

 

[Neuronix]

If you were asked in an interview why you want to go to X school, would you have an answer beyond "I want to live in CA or NYC"?

I think location is a very important factor for picking a school.

I made the worst decisions about where to apply when I was applying and this was mostly due to bad advice given to me by a lot of people and fear of cost applying to too many (which was a very real problem for me). As much as people like to hate on it, the one best indicator for applying is the US News research rankings. That will roughly tell you which schools have the most research funding (isn't it like 50% of the ranking?), as that includes their affiliates, and which schools are the most competitive (based on rank). The only caveat is take away some points for competitiveness if the school is in a not-so-good location and add some competitiveness points if the school is in a desirible location.

There is no real good way for you to select which schools to which to apply. There's no possible way as an undergrad you can know enough about the schools and departments to make that decision. Probably the single best strategy I've heard so far was I knew a guy who just took the top 22 ranked schools and applied to all of them. His only problem was that he was far more competitive than he realized and got interviews at nearly all of them and acceptances almost everywhere he interviewed. If I were applying again, I would do that except dip down a little lower, depending on my application, and also select more for location preferences.

I think people are really exaggerating the amount of time secondaries take. Though interviewing can be a real strain both on the wallet and whatever else you're doing at the time. If you have an easy courseload or are taking a year off, interviewing can actually be a pretty good time (*gasp* I mostly enjoyed it!). If interviewing is going to be a strain for you and you get too many, you can always trim down then...

 

[seraph524]

But overall, I think the overarching thing that attracts you to a place is simply will you be happy living there for 8-9 years of your life? While it seems trivial to the prestige of the institution or big names in the research world...all that means nothing if you are depressed 24/7 hating your existence... That was my answer to that question "what are you looking for" or "what do you like about our school" and everybody thought it was an extremely good, if not the best (maturity wise), reason.

 

[Neuronix]

will you be happy living there for 8-9 years of your life?

Good luck knowing that from two visits 😉 But it is something to think about. That is of course more a question of where to actually attend than it is where to select for interview. You won't have any concept of where you like and where you don't until you interview at these places, unless you happen to be someone who's been to a lot of medical schools already (a pre-med who has? Very rare). So you can either do one of two things:

1) Take my word for it that Cleveland sucks and not apply there.

However, when I say that, it's the bat signal for CCLCMer to come defend it 😀 i.e. To each their own.

2) You can apply and interview broadly and try to figure out what's right for you.

 

[seraph524]

Good luck knowing that from two visits 😉 But it is something to think about. That is of course more a question of where to actually attend than it is where to select for interview. You won't have any concept of where you like and where you don't until you interview at these places, unless you happen to be someone who's been to a lot of medical schools already (a pre-med who has? Very rare). So you can either do one of two things:

1) Take my word for it that Cleveland sucks and not apply there.

However, when I say that, it's the bat signal for CCLCMer to come defend it 😀 i.e. To each their own.

2) You can apply and interview broadly and try to figure out what's right for you.

Well haha, no, you are absolutely right...how can we know that from two visits? But I guess I'm just trying to emphasize personal happiness over everything else...and like all things, it can't be predicted, unfortunately.

 

[DrJekyl]

Have you looked into the labs and faculty available at any of these schools? Maybe you can do a little research before you apply to see if there are any labs in these schools you would like to work in.

 

[franniemeow07]

I'll chime in because I have stats pretty similar to yours. All the schools you mentioned are fine, but I'd add a few more.

Here's what I've experienced. Everyone says that what matters most is your research experience. I haven't found this to be the case completely. I have four years experience (2 of those years full time) and have a few pubs (one first author, two in review) and numerous presentations (posters, abstracts, etc.)

I've gotten lots of interviews- but I haven't gotten any acceptances. I haven't given up yet but it's been a hard process. I know the schools at which I've interviewed are accepting people- but the only ones they are accepting have 37+ MCAT and 3.7+ GPA. I think I'll be accepted somewhere in the end... but I have to wait until the people they really want go elsewhere. I don't want to sound discouraging because it's definitely doable. I just wish I had applied a little differently (i.e. more broadly)

May I ask which schools and/or how many schools you applied to? I understand what you are saying about the difficulty of being admitted with "average" (for md/phd) stats. It would help me so much to get an idea of what other schools, besides the super competitive ones that I listed already, would be good to apply to...thanks!

 

[franniemeow07]

I think location is a very important factor for picking a school.

I made the worst decisions about where to apply when I was applying and this was mostly due to bad advice given to me by a lot of people and fear of cost applying to too many (which was a very real problem for me). As much as people like to hate on it, the one best indicator for applying is the US News research rankings. That will roughly tell you which schools have the most research funding (isn't it like 50% of the ranking?), as that includes their affiliates, and which schools are the most competitive (based on rank). The only caveat is take away some points for competitiveness if the school is in a not-so-good location and add some competitiveness points if the school is in a desirible location.

There is no real good way for you to select which schools to which to apply. There's no possible way as an undergrad you can know enough about the schools and departments to make that decision. Probably the single best strategy I've heard so far was I knew a guy who just took the top 22 ranked schools and applied to all of them. His only problem was that he was far more competitive than he realized and got interviews at nearly all of them and acceptances almost everywhere he interviewed. If I were applying again, I would do that except dip down a little lower, depending on my application, and also select more for location preferences.

I think people are really exaggerating the amount of time secondaries take. Though interviewing can be a real strain both on the wallet and whatever else you're doing at the time. If you have an easy courseload or are taking a year off, interviewing can actually be a pretty good time (*gasp* I mostly enjoyed it!). If interviewing is going to be a strain for you and you get too many, you can always trim down then...

Are you talking about the top 22 ranked schools for medicine or for MD/PhD programs? I wasn't aware that Usnews has separate ranking systems. Also, I am not as lucky as your friend, as I have the feeling that I definitely won't be as competitive as other applicants in general.

 

[franniemeow07]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions to apply broadly. I fully intend to minimize the chances of having to apply again, so the issue of which schools to apply to is certainly not one to be taken lightly. Luckily, I am in the middle of my gap year, working a 40hr/week research job (and moonlighting as a chemistry tutor) and volunteering, and I think my PI will be fairly understanding of the time I'll have to take off for interviewing. I am really leaning towards going MD/PhD lately, because my PI and another postdoc are extremely optimistic at my work being published, and I'm actually looking forward to getting to write a real paper! It makes me feel like it WON'T be such a crazy idea to spend X amount of year in a PhD program, since this paper was something I never ever EVER imagined in my 3 years of working on this project. I guess I like doing research after all. 😱

I would be really appreciative of people's suggestions of schools that are not necessarily in the "top 20", but are known for solid programs in disease biology/cell biology. I am doing my own research but I find it really difficult to judge the quality of programs, as a lot of schools have tons of faculty doing a lot of different "things" but it's not obvious what the school is "known for" in terms of programs.

BTW Neuronix, why don't you like CCLCM? 😕 My med student roommates say that it's a super good school? But I don't know anything about it so I am curious about your opinion 🙂

 

[Neuronix]

BTW Neuronix, why don't you like CCLCM?

I never said I didn't like CCLCM. I said I don't like Cleveland 😉 I know very little about CCLCM.

There does happen to be one user here named CCLCMer who comes by to cheerlead hardcore for the school whenever it comes up (and sometimes when it doesn't). They must be busy these days 🙂

 

[CCLCMer]

Good luck knowing that from two visits 😉 But it is something to think about. That is of course more a question of where to actually attend than it is where to select for interview. You won't have any concept of where you like and where you don't until you interview at these places, unless you happen to be someone who's been to a lot of medical schools already (a pre-med who has? Very rare). So you can either do one of two things:

1) Take my word for it that Cleveland sucks and not apply there.

However, when I say that, it's the bat signal for CCLCMer to come defend it 😀 i.e. To each their own.

2) You can apply and interview broadly and try to figure out what's right for you.

Ha ha, I don't think you can really say that I'm defending Cleveland as much as constantly pointing out that you greatly exaggerate how bad it is here. In your own words, "Good luck knowing that from two visits." Since neither of us can be unbiased, let's at least be balanced. 😉

I was not particularly impressed with Cleveland either when I visited, but it turned out to be a lot better than I expected it to be. I've been living here for nearly two years at this point, so I do have a different perspective now that I have gotten to know the city beyond just an interview day perspective. At the same time, I'm not planning to stay here after I graduate. (I'm from out of state.) All I'm saying is, going to medical school in Cleveland is not like you're being committed to a decade-long sentence in a maximum security prison, and there ARE some good points about the city.

BTW Neuronix, why don't you like CCLCM? 😕 My med student roommates say that it's a super good school? But I don't know anything about it so I am curious about your opinion 🙂

He doesn't like the city of Cleveland, it has nothing to do with CCLCM. This school wasn't even around yet when he applied to med school.

I never said I didn't like CCLCM. I said I don't like Cleveland 😉 I know very little about CCLCM.

There does happen to be one user here named CCLCMer who comes by to cheerlead hardcore for the school whenever it comes up (and sometimes when it doesn't). They must be busy these days 🙂

Well, since you called me out, here I am. 😛 I have been pretty busy, so sorry that I missed this thread up till now. 😳

Franniemeow, if you're applying to the Case MSTP, you should apply here too. You just have to check one more box and it doesn't cost anything extra. They will also set it up so that your interviews are back-to-back and you only have to make one trip out here.

 

[Neuronix]

Since neither of us can be unbiased, let's at least be balanced. 😉

I missed you that's all 😀. That's why I picked on Cleveland of all places. I knew you'd be here to defend it. Pittsburgh sucks just as bad IMO but I'm not sure anyone will come to defend it.

 

[marctam86]

sorry to fan the flames, but this thread reminded me of a joke:

For a raffle, first prize: one week in Cleveland. Second prize: two weeks.

 

[Neuronix]

I would be really appreciative of people's suggestions of schools that are not necessarily in the "top 20", but are known for solid programs in disease biology/cell biology. I am doing my own research but I find it really difficult to judge the quality of programs, as a lot of schools have tons of faculty doing a lot of different "things" but it's not obvious what the school is "known for" in terms of programs.

It's basically really hard to give you this info. The only people who will answer this question probably have an n=2 (i.e. they've seen a few posters or researchers from that school for whatever reason and think it's swell) or went there as undergrads or whatever. It's info not to be trusted. About the only objective measures you can get are to go to the NIH and get the top fundings for schools for each area you're interested in. It's not perfect, but it's about as objective as you're going to get. If you want to get more specific than that, good luck 😀

Any MSTP is a solid place to attend in my opinion. Get the list, look at some of the ones down on the USNews rankings a ways but still in locations that sound decent and give it a go is my advice. If you want to be specific for strength in a given department, go here:

http://grants.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medindp05.htm

This kind of info isn't perfect, and it's even a few years old. Note that A LOT of the funding for cell and molecular biology type projects will be listed under things like internal medicine and pathology. Another problem is that it doesn't take into account affiliated research institutes. I'm not really sure how wise it is to use this info, but that's the nature of the beast.

 

[CCLCMer]

I missed you that's all 😀. That's why I picked on Cleveland of all places. I knew you'd be here to defend it. Pittsburgh sucks just as bad IMO but I'm not sure anyone will come to defend it.

Wow, all this time I never knew you cared. 😳 I'm still around. Usually I just search for CCLCM though, not for Cleveland, so that's why I didn't catch this thread right away.

Pitt was one of the other schools I was thinking about going to. They have an MD/MS program too. If I had gone there, I'd definitely come defend Pittsburgh for you, but now I can't because I only spent two days there. 😛

Total

 

[j-weezy]

sorry to fan the flames, but this thread reminded me of a joke:

For a raffle, first prize: one week in Cleveland. Second prize: two weeks.

haha I think you can insert any city in the midwest in there (save Chicago) and it would still be funny