What should I do about slacker pre-med friends?

[Frazier]

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Just think about that for a minute. A resident is earning $45K (even in a city like NYC), while a beginning lawyer in a decent firm starts at a minimum of $150K, and their salary keeps increasing during that time. So by the time the MD is done with residency, the lawyer could already be up to $200K or more. He will probably have earned more than $800K in those 5 years, while the doctor has only made $225K--and his starting pay out of residency could well be lower than what the lawyer is already making. Depending on his specialty as well as what area the lawyer is in, the MD might surpass him in salary eventually, but it will take a long time to make up for the huge economic
hole he starts out in.

It's great that you want to do ortho, but I know a lot of a lawyers who make far more than the average ortho--and they earn it for more years, because lawyers don't do residency. So it's pretty hard to medicine to win from a purely FINANCIAL standpoint.

Senor, you keep forgetting that we are trying to compare the averages within a profession. There is truly only a handful of lawyers that make 6 figures out of law school (read: biglaw) and, hell, more than half of lawyers never make it over 100k. Period. (Llike I mentioned earlier, the median is 62k).

Of course you know plenty of lawyers that make more than ortho docs -- they are outliers/rock stars. I could say that I know plenty of docs that make millions and quote spine surgeons, neuro directors and why not even Dr. Oz... None of it matters when we are focusing on the whole picture and not viewing things from a micro POV.

You said that your original post wasn't only about money -- I saw and appreciated the summation of your thought process. I just wanted to do a little debating about the income. 🙂

Props for leaving your wall street job to be a doc. 👍

 

[crixx]

i would personally do nothing, the more they fail the better rest of us will look, the end. this is a dog eat dog world, the nice dog don't survive very long.

I really hope I'm lucky enough to have friends like these in medical school

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

You could have them PM me, and I'll tell them the hell I've gone through for the last ten years trying to work my way back to even being a person who could apply to med school... and how work in a research/biotech lab really sucks for people who are med-school/socially minded... Basically, someone posted this before, for every B a person gets they have to get 2 As in order to keep their GPA in the range that a med school would consider... So, for their 3.0 GPA (which is about what mine is now) if they come out of college with the standard 120 credits, it will take them one hell of a long time to bring the GPA to anything reasonable... and really they won't be able to move it higher than about a 3.3... I WISH I had someone pushing me harder when I was in UG... B's were acceptable to my family, and I didn't try much harder than that...

 

[45408]

When you think about this rationally, you can't really blame them. Medicine asks an ENORMOUS amount from people who want to get into it, and even more to stay in. Not to mention the exorbitant tuition, not getting any sleep for 10 years, very little time off, ...if you put the same amount of effort and drive into any other profession, you'd probably make a lot more money, sooner, and have a better lifestyle.

That's pretty imaginative. This is almost certainly the most lucrative profession that I could have pursued.

 

[skooB]

Tell your friends to read SDN for a few weeks. When they see people who are like, "I got an A-, now what, Caribbean? 😕", they'll get stressed out and work harder. 😉

co-sign

 

[theVster]

Dude, Frazier, how about comparing the average *doc* to an average lawyer? You keep saying ortho, ortho, ortho as though somehow the orthopods are going to be the only option... I don't know where you are in med school or whether you're even in med school but the average GP/IM doctor makes 125-150k per year out of residency...

 

[Frazier]

co-sign

 

[Corpsman Up]

i would personally do nothing, the more they fail the better rest of us will look, the end. this is a dog eat dog world, the nice dog don't survive very long.

This was my first thought as well. The more people that fail in a science class, the higher the curve for the rest of us

 

[Corpsman Up]

You could have them PM me, and I'll tell them the hell I've gone through for the last ten years trying to work my way back to even being a person who could apply to med school... and how work in a research/biotech lab really sucks for people who are med-school/socially minded... Basically, someone posted this before, for every B a person gets they have to get 2 As in order to keep their GPA in the range that a med school would consider... So, for their 3.0 GPA (which is about what mine is now) if they come out of college with the standard 120 credits, it will take them one hell of a long time to bring the GPA to anything reasonable... and really they won't be able to move it higher than about a 3.3... I WISH I had someone pushing me harder when I was in UG... B's were acceptable to my family, and I didn't try much harder than that...

I was also stupid for a few quarters. I figured being an engineer would satisfy me, so getting straight B's in my general chemistry sequence was acceptable.....now I basically have to ace my o-chem sequence. Im banking on some of my non-academic achievements to pull me through

 

[EpiIV]

OP, I feel you. I had a roommate/good friend who fell into the category of claiming they were premed but did very little to show that. When we graduated, they had no plans, moved in with the parents, and found blood tech job. A year later they're still working there and claiming that they're saving up money for graduate school. It's unlikely to happen.

In the past I offered to introduce them to a few volunteering organizations but I didn't force the issue. We had conversations about scores and plans for the future and they never offered a whole lot of insight on themselves. The truth was, their slacking came from depression. I don't think they ever wanted to be a doctor, I think they choose the track because it sounded acceptable in their mind and acceptable to their parents. When you don't know how to actually break through their denial, the process is painful to watch.

OP, if your friend slacks because they party, send them to SDN and let them become infected with neurosis. All it takes is "check this site out, I learned so much here!!" On the other hand, if they slack because they're depressed, lay in bed all day, and have disengaged themselves from the world, address the real problem at hand. They disengaged from life. It's completely ok that they don't become a doctor, but hell, they need to find something that gives them life. Otherwise they're wasting it in a numb stupor. It's not your responsibility to fix anyone, but you could be a catalyst that gets the ball rolling in the right direction.

There's a good possibility that this doesn't apply to your situation, but thanks for making me think and calling some things to my attention. I need to make a phone call.

 

[student1799]

Senor

That’s “señora” to you, hombre.

 

[The Poet Sings]

That’s “señora” to you, hombre.

it gets so old on here, being taken for a guy bc male is the default 😡.

 

[elyswim]

You could have them PM me, and I'll tell them the hell I've gone through for the last ten years trying to work my way back to even being a person who could apply to med school... and how work in a research/biotech lab really sucks for people who are med-school/socially minded... Basically, someone posted this before, for every B a person gets they have to get 2 As in order to keep their GPA in the range that a med school would consider... So, for their 3.0 GPA (which is about what mine is now) if they come out of college with the standard 120 credits, it will take them one hell of a long time to bring the GPA to anything reasonable... and really they won't be able to move it higher than about a 3.3... I WISH I had someone pushing me harder when I was in UG... B's were acceptable to my family, and I didn't try much harder than that...

You are aware the medical schools consider GPAs below 3.6 right?

 

[Frazier]

That's "señora" to you, hombre.

tildes are so inconvenient when performing internet speak.

 

[SusGob711]

it gets so old on here, being taken for a guy bc male is the default 😡.

I feel ya.' They really should list our gender beneath our username on all posts...just a suggestion 😉

 

[Frazier]

I feel ya.' They really should list our gender beneath our username on all posts...just a suggestion 😉

that would be kewwl 😎

 

[SusGob711]

I sympathize with those of you who feel impressed by people pursuing other careers but remember the grass in hardly ever greener on the other side.

For example, someone mentioned being a lawyer. It is extremely difficult to land a top job with a big firm. The law field is saturated and unless you're pulling a 3.5+ from a top ten school you'll more reasonably start out making around $60,000 or worse.

Regarding my OP, I'm talking about a lack of motivation, not a lack of wherewithal or stamina. I have friends in other careers (with MUCH less required training than ours) who have done an equally crappy job of working hard to succeed. My sister partied her way through college and now she's having a hell of a time finding a decent accounting job. It sucks watching anyone fail at something they supposedly want. I definitely don't think you can say medicine isn't worth it, financially at least.

This is just a little more difficult because we're at the beginning of the race, not the end. If they can't hang now...isn't it only going to get worse?

 

[Cleavername]

I really hope I'm lucky enough to have friends like these in medical school

a curved grading system doesn't breed friends u silly.

This was my first thought as well. The more people that fail in a science class, the higher the curve for the rest of us

i hate that system, with a passion. i would put in so much more efford to lets say, orgo 2 as opposed to calc 2 which was not curved. i got A in calc 2 and a minus in orgo 2. i studied 10 days in advance for orgo 2. calc 2, 2 days in advance.

 

[Perrotfish]

This thread could be a case study of what's wrong with the premedical mind. Half of the people here are saying that, if your friends are setting themselves up for failure, you should sit back and laugh. Meanwhile, the other half are pointing out what dedicated altruists they are to persue into a profession that pays a mere 200 K/year. And we wonder why people like nurses more.

To answer the OPs question: YES, if you have friends that want to go to medical school, and they have any time left to improve their chances (i.e. they haven't already sent out the application) you should try and tell them what you know about how to get in. What GPA they need, how to get it, the whole 'applying early' thing, etc. Show them some numbers to help push them past the denial stage. If it's clear that they know the facts and are going to continue to make partying the priority then that's their call, but as a friend it is your responsibility to keep them from screwing themselves out of ignorance. If they've sent the app already just nod encouragingly and take them out drinking when it doesn't work out. Either way if you see your friend setting themselves up for misery and you enjoy the moment you're a jackass.

 

[VikingLegacy]

baleeted

 

[The Poet Sings]

This thread could be a case study of what's wrong with the premedical mind. Half of the people here are saying that, if your friends are setting themselves up for failure, you should sit back and laugh. Meanwhile, the other half are pointing out what dedicated altruists they are to persue into a profession that pays a mere 200 K/year. And we wonder why people like nurses more.

To answer the OPs question: YES, if you have friends that want to go to medical school, and they have any time left to improve their chances (i.e. they haven't already sent out the application) you should try and tell them what you know about how to get in. What GPA they need, how to get it, the whole 'applying early' thing, etc. Show them some numbers to help push them past the denial stage. If it's clear that they know the facts and are going to continue to make partying the priority then that's their call, but as a friend it is your responsibility to keep them from screwing themselves out of ignorance. If they've sent the app already just nod encouragingly and take them out drinking when it doesn't work out. Either way if you see your friend setting themselves up for misery and you enjoy the moment you're a jackass.

i tell everyone i know about this website, because even with all the crap, it is definitely what helped me get through the process. my school advisors didn't want me to apply. but i did want to. this website gave me hope because i wasn't the strongest candidate. i saw that others had done it and knew that i could, too. so i applied and was fortunate enough to get in. i'm not quite sure why i responded to your post, since what i'm saying doesn't directly relate. but i had been watching this thread and i didn't feel the need to say anything until your post. i guess for you to know that not everyone is like the 2 halves of which you speak.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Don't make other people's problems your problems. Unless of course you are a psychologist and you're getting paid to take on their problems. 😀

 

[Perrotfish]

i tell everyone i know about this website, because even with all the crap, it is definitely what helped me get through the process. my school advisors didn't want me to apply. but i did want to. this website gave me hope because i wasn't the strongest candidate. i saw that others had done it and knew that i could, too. so i applied and was fortunate enough to get in. i'm not quite sure why i responded to your post, since what i'm saying doesn't directly relate. but i had been watching this thread and i didn't feel the need to say anything until your post. i guess for you to know that not everyone is like the 2 halves of which you speak.

I'll definitely agree that SDN can be an amazing tool. For all that this website spreads neurosis, it also helped me figure out how to weasel my way into medical school one year after I graduated with a 2.8. I'm still very grateful for that.