What should I do in a situation where my superiors are acting unethical?

[deleted993098]

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[Blueprint Med School]

Not to get too far into the weeds, but up the food chain I would go. From one level of authority to the next until someone does something about it. If they dont, leave. There are a gazillion places to volunteer, and most of them are not toxic.

Just one persons opinion,

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[deleted480308]

Hi guys, not sure where to post this, but hope someone here has been through something similar. I volunteer at my local food bank and some of the more senior volunteers who are my superiors treat the customers getting food pretty badly. Some of the customers cannot speak english and sometimes take extra items. The senior volunteers yell at them loudly and scold them in front of everyone and create an uncomfortable environment. This happens multiple times a day. I let one of the paid-employees know, but they seemed to just shrug it off. What would you do in this situation?

Customers? If they are taking more than they paid for, it’s theft. Theft should be uncomfortable

I feel like there needs to be more explanation

 

[deleted993098]

Customers? If they are taking more than they paid for, it’s theft. Theft should be uncomfortable

I feel like there needs to be more explanation

Sorry it's a food bank, so it's free. I wasn't sure what to call the people getting food. But there are limits (e.g. 5 potatoes per customer, but somtimes people will take 6 or 7). I don't mind enforcing rules, but the way they do it seems excessive. I mean they shout very loud so that everyone in the food bank notices and even snatch things out of customers hands. I remember a customer forgot to pick up like a can of meat and they were like "You can't go back! I don't care!" and the food bank wasn't even crowded. It was just mean.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Nothing you've said that they have done is unethical. I work in a homeless shelter and sometimes when people are repeat offenders and continuously break the rules, you have to raise your voice to get the message across. Also, snatching things out of someone's hands when they are breaking a limit seems reasonable lol.

 

[caterwaiter]

Not to get too far into the weeds, but up the food chain I would go. From one level of authority to the next until someone does something about it. If they dont, leave. There are a gazillion places to volunteer, and most of them are not toxic.

Just one persons opinion,

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

I agree with this. Helping you navigate this uncomfortable situation should be part of your manager's job. There should be a way to enforce rules without publicly shaming people who are already dealing with food insecurity.

 

[deleted480308]

I agree with this. Helping you navigate this uncomfortable situation should be part of your manager's job. There should be a way to enforce rules without publicly shaming people who are already dealing with food insecurity.

Shame can be appropriate if they know they are breaking the rules but that has not been clarified here yet

 

[deleted993098]

Nothing you've said that they have done is unethical. I work in a homeless shelter and sometimes when people are repeat offenders and continuously break the rules, you have to raise your voice to get the message across. Also, snatching things out of someone's hands when they are breaking a limit seems reasonable lol.

I appreciate your perspective as I did not think about it that way. Maybe I'm in the wrong, but this is my perspective:

I believe this is unethical because low-income persons are treated without respect and like criminals. The people coming to a food bank are already in a vulnerable state and it can be embarrassing itself just to publicly get free food for some people. Plus, we have a huge population of people who are immigrants that may not understand english well or people who are elderly or on drugs that may affect how they process information. Whenever I see someone take extra food, I let them know verbally or with hand gestures that's not allowed and that works 99% of the time. And raising your voice is not the same as shouting. There is a difference between being loud/stern and screaming/mean so everyone notices. I also don't agree that it is appropriate to snatch things out of someone's hands as this is a physical action and someone could get injured.

To me, the food bank should reflect that the city care for those in low-income households and foster a welcoming environment where people feel safe. If the enviornment is hostile, then people are less likely to come, even those following the rules. In the case of repeat offenders, you can write down their information and set up some sort of blacklist or pre-prepared food bag. I will admit, that some of these people can be difficult, but that does not justify becoming hostile. We are fortunate enough to be in a situation where we can volunteer and help others; while the people we are helping may be dealing with very dark times. Since, this is sdn, I will also add that doctors often deal with difficult patients, but they don't jump to shouting and being rude as a first resort. I think the current environment is toxic and there are better ways to approach the situation.

Shame can be appropriate if they know they are breaking the rules but that has not been clarified here yet

To clarify, I do think some people knowingly break the rules and others do not (it's probably 50/50). Either way, everyone gets publicly shamed and shouted at. I do not agree with you that shame is appropriate, but appreciate your opinion. However, I think it would be remiss to not consider the circumstances of people entering the food bank. It's not like they are stealing cell phones, they may be sneaking an extra apple or something. This is more indicative of their state--they are very desperate for food and hungry. I cannot imagine how difficult that might be. I do not think the appropriate response to people in that situation is to yell and shame them. I think you can keep track of repeat offendors and enfroce the rules in some other manner. Everyone does give their license/ID to enter after all. You could also make people aware of more resources to deal with the root of the behavior rather than yell at them and hope they behave appropriately out of shame/fear.

 

[LizzyM]

Some older people can be cranky and if they have been putting up with shenanigans for years, they may be short tempered. Some may be hard of hearing and speak loudly becuase they can't otherwise hear themselves.

As a physician you will deal with difficult patients but you will also deal with difficult team members. Some will be your supervisors, some will be your subordinates and some will not be in your chain of command at all but work for a different boss but still on your team. It can be a challenge to work with people who are unkind to patients or who treat others as you would not want to be treated.

You did the right thing in reporting your concerns to the management of the facility. You may never know whether any action was taken to address this issue as you might not be privy to conversations with other volunteers behind closed doors.

You can let it go and continue to help the people and model what you think is good behavior toward the guests of the pantry or you can resign and find a place that is better aligned with your values as a volunteer.

The ball is in your court.

 

[deleted993098]

Some older people can be cranky and if they have been putting up with shenanigans for years, they may be short tempered.
As a physician you will deal with difficult patients but you will also deal with difficult team members. Some will be your supervisors, some will be your subordinates and some will not be in your chain of command at all but work for a different boss but still on your team. It can be a challenge to work with people who are unkind to patients or who treat others as you would not want to be treated.

You did the right thing in reporting your concerns to the management of the facility. You may never know whether any action was taken to address this issue as you might not be privy to conversations with other volunteers behind closed doors.

You can let it go and continue to help the people and model what you think is good behavior toward the guests of the pantry or you can resign and find a place that is better aligned with your values as a volunteer.

The ball is in your court.

Thank you for your advise LizzyM. I think I may move on to a place that is better aligned with my interests. I've put in over a 100 hours at this place and tried to exhibit the professionalism and kindness that I would want to experience at a food bank if I was low-income and in need of food. I will probably report the action to management again before leaving, but I do not think I can continue volunteering in such an environment. Usually, when I volunteer for a full day, I feel happy that I was able to help. But I can't help feel sad/depressed after every shift at the food bank and I honestly feel horrible the whole day when I get home as I let vulnerable people be treated so poorly.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

I appreciate your perspective as I did not think about it that way. Maybe I'm in the wrong, but this is my perspective:

I believe this is unethical because low-income persons are treated without respect and like criminals. The people coming to a food bank are already in a vulnerable state and it can be embarrassing itself just to publicly get free food for some people. Plus, we have a huge population of people who are immigrants that may not understand english well or people who are elderly or on drugs that may affect how they process information. Whenever I see someone take extra food, I let them know verbally or with hand gestures that's not allowed and that works 99% of the time. And raising your voice is not the same as shouting. There is a difference between being loud/stern and screaming/mean so everyone notices. I also don't agree that it is appropriate to snatch things out of someone's hands as this is a physical action and someone could get injured.

To me, the food bank should reflect that the city care for those in low-income households and foster a welcoming environment where people feel safe. If the enviornment is hostile, then people are less likely to come, even those following the rules. In the case of repeat offenders, you can write down their information and set up some sort of blacklist or pre-prepared food bag. I will admit, that some of these people can be difficult, but that does not justify becoming hostile. We are fortunate enough to be in a situation where we can volunteer and help others; while the people we are helping may be dealing with very dark times. Since, this is sdn, I will also add that doctors often deal with difficult patients, but they don't jump to shouting and being rude as a first resort. I think the current environment is toxic and there are better ways to approach the situation.



To clarify, I do think some people knowingly break the rules and others do not (it's probably 50/50). Either way, everyone gets publicly shamed and shouted at. I do not agree with you that shame is appropriate, but appreciate your opinion. However, I think it would be remiss to not consider the circumstances of people entering the food bank. It's not like they are stealing cell phones, they may be sneaking an extra apple or something. This is more indicative of their state--they are very desperate for food and hungry. I cannot imagine how difficult that might be. I do not think the appropriate response to people in that situation is to yell and shame them. I think you can keep track of repeat offendors and enfroce the rules in some other manner. Everyone does give their license/ID to enter after all. You could also make people aware of more resources to deal with the root of the behavior rather than yell at them and hope they behave appropriately out of shame/fear.

If they are taking over their limit, they are reducing the amount of food that other people can have, stealing, and therefore are pretty close to criminals? Could you say what I've bolded with a straight face and mean it? If you can't handle the environment, I'd seek volunteering elsewhere.

 

[deleted993098]

If they are taking over their limit, they are reducing the amount of food that other people can have, stealing, and therefore are pretty close to criminals? Could you say what I've bolded with a straight face and mean it? If you can't handle the environment, I'd seek volunteering elsewhere.

Thanks again for your perspective. I wouldn't call them criminals personally. Like Jean Valjean is technically a criminal for stealing bread, but if we consider his circumstances, he is not a bad person. And I'm not saying we shouldn't enforce limits, I just think there are better ways to do so.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Thanks again for your perspective. I wouldn't call them criminals personally. Like Jean Valjean is technically a criminal for stealing bread, but if we consider his circumstances, he is not a bad person. And I'm not saying we shouldn't enforce limits, I just think there are better ways to do so.

I wouldn't call them criminals either, but they are are breaking the rules.

 

[deleted480308]

Thanks again for your perspective. I wouldn't call them criminals personally. Like Jean Valjean is technically a criminal for stealing bread, but if we consider his circumstances, he is not a bad person. And I'm not saying we shouldn't enforce limits, I just think there are better ways to do so.

he's a bad person. Theft is wrong

 

[deleted993098]

he's a bad person. Theft is wrong

 

[Osteosaur]

I don't think you know what unethical means.

There won't be enough for the next cute little family to come in if the rules aren't enforced. And for all you know there might be a history with these particular people. Plenty of folks have mastered the art of looking confused and pathetic so they can take an extra little mile. Its unfortunate but it does happen.

You could always gently ask. "Does she always do that or something?" in a way that's less confrontational but maybe brings to their attention they're acting pretty harsh. Or you can always volunteer elsewhere.

 

[Tenk]

Nobody likes a snitch OP. Either find a way to hang with the cranky seniors or find a new gig.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Wow, a lot of Scrooges here - maybe that’s because it’s Christmastime.

OP, there is perspective in everything.It may not be unethical, but you find it morally wrong. The next few times you go, be more observant. Are they taking more to take more, or do they not understand the rules - either through, ignorance, education or language. You can’t address this problem without a greater understanding.

 

[Blueprint Med School]

Wow, a lot of Scrooges here - maybe that’s because it’s Christmastime.

OP, there is perspective in everything.It may not be unethical, but you find it morally wrong. The next few times you go, be more observant. Are they taking more to take more, or do they not understand the rules - either through, ignorance, education or language. You can’t address this problem without a greater understanding.

I like this approach. Really try and put yourself in all the actors shoes and see who is being reasonable and who is being unreasonable. Filter it through your ethics lens and alternate lenses.

Even if you end up coming to the same conclusion, you will be richer in confidence for future situations.

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor.
Med School Tutors

 

[honey0102]

Nobody likes a snitch OP. Either find a way to hang with the cranky seniors or find a new gig.

This isn't just about OP hanging out w/ them but also their interactions w/ clients.
I think OP would be in the right to bring it up to someone higher up-ethical thing to do.
Snitch? Or whistleblower? It isn't snitching if something really bad is going on like in this case

 

[dpmd]

It is considered snitching regardless of how justified someone thinks they are in telling. In fact the most justified reasons are likely to result in the sort of corrective or punitive action that will lead to the ones in trouble being upset about the snitching. My guess is the older people the OP is judging have likely been doing this for longer and have some compassion fatigue because of it. Discussing the behavior with them might help the OP put it in perspective and might help the older folks realize how they are coming off. Learning how to address stuff like this with their coworkers rather than skip straight to going to a supervisor would be an useful skill. If they get blown off or the people escalate their behavior then going up the chain would be appropriate. Or if they dont want to expend that sort of effort then trying a different volunteer activity might be simpler.