What specialties will have the most and least midlevel encroachment?

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Astra

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As someone who has just been accepted to medical school and is now learning about mid-level encroachment, its terrifying. I was leaning towards a primary care specialty but now I am doubtful.

Thanks guys

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Can someone tell me how many doctors have lot their jobs to midlevels?
 
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Most: Primary care

Least: Rads, Path, RadOnc, Surgery
Anybody know about neurons relationship with midlevels? I don't think I have ever seen a neuro midlevel seeing neuro patients on their own. For some reason that just seems way less safe/possible that say a derm NP doing simple acne cases.

The only example I can think is that some busy stroke centers have them but they usually manage the boring yet essential stuff like coordinating PT/OT, speech, and working with social work to find a SNF. I also worked with a PA in the neuro ICU and he basically functioned like a competent resident. He didn't do much decision making but man he was a workhorse and smart too. Honestly, the midlevel involvement I have seen in neuro seems like a win win. Let me know if I am wrong or it is more common in neurology than I believe.
 
Cardiology - no midlevel ever enters a cath lab


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Most: Primary care

Least: Rads, Path, RadOnc, Surgery

No way in hell can they acquire the breadth of knowledge required to do Path or Rads. I also agree with Rad Onc and Surgery.
 
I still don't think they will be replacing doctors. There are plenty of ear infections, school physicals, runny noses, and medication refills to go around for everyone. The people with more than that want to see a doc and most NPs don't wanna see them without a physician around either.

Any decent PCP that takes insurance usually has a 2+ month wait list.
 
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In Path our mid-levels are called PA's (pathology assistants) and they usually help us gross specimens (take apart surgical specimens for staging/examination). PA's do not read slides. They also have their own schools but learn alongside residents in the gross room.
 
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No way in hell can they acquire the breadth of knowledge required to do Path or Rads. I also agree with Rad Onc and Surgery.
Path and rads have their own problems which make them extremely unappealing. Surgery is definitely the safest but surgical PAs are progressively expanding their scope. I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing solo appys and tonsils in a few years.
 
No way in hell can they acquire the breadth of knowledge required to do Path or Rads. I also agree with Rad Onc and Surgery.
Theyll be doing all of those very soon except diagnostic rads and path.

NPs already assist in surgery. It will not be long until they are performing lap choles and appys by themselves.

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Path and rads have their own problems which make them extremely unappealing. Surgery is definitely the safest but surgical PAs are progressively expanding their scope. I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing solo appys and tonsils in a few years.

What's your take on radiology being so unappealing? I'm feeling specialties out at the moment and kind of liked the rad work we're doing in class.. of course I don't know much about the actual practice of the field in real life...any opinion to share?
 
So... According to yall, primary care Doctors will be out of a job in a few years? And soon surgeons, psychiatrists, radiologists, and all doctors?

Guys, do you really think the only reason why hospitals haven't fired all the doctors is because nurses didn't have independent practice rights?
 
Theyll be doing all of those very soon except diagnostic rads and path.

NPs already assist in surgery. It will not be long until they are performing lap choles and appys by themselves.

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I doubt they'll be doing appys anytime soon, unless they are willing to take ER call. We can hope no hospitals will be granting them privileges to do choles independently (or surgeons out there willing to sign off on their competency to do so...there is generally a minimum case log requirement for privileges). Plus, if they can't fix the complications they cause, or even have the ability and knowledge to convert to an open procedure, their privileges would be a short-lived hospital nightmare.
 
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What's your take on radiology being so unappealing? I'm feeling specialties out at the moment and kind of liked the rad work we're doing in class.. of course I don't know much about the actual practice of the field in real life...any opinion to share?
Really, it's just the job market. It's been down for years. Take a look on auntminnie.com they're actually listing fellowships as jobs. I mean seriously? Then they also list a bunch of jobs based in Australia and crap. Once you sift through all that garbage there's like 10 real jobs being advertised across the whole country.
 
I doubt they'll be doing appys anytime soon, unless they are willing to take ER call. We can hope no hospitals will be granting them privileges to do choles independently (or surgeons out there willing to sign off on their competency to do so...there is generally a minimum case log requirement for privileges). Plus, if they can't fix the complications they cause, or even have the ability and knowledge to convert to an open procedure, their privileges would be a short-lived hospital nightmare.
You don't think they could work out a deal similar to anesthesiology? Where they make the attendings ultimately liable as supervisors and dump all the post-op care on them. Honestly I doubt it'll ever happen simply because most laypeople don't like the idea of a nurse performing any kind of surgery on them. Any sane person would ask for a physician. But again, I wouldn't be surprised.
 
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Really, it's just the job market. It's been down for years. Take a look on auntminnie.com they're actually listing fellowships as jobs. I mean seriously? Then they also list a bunch of jobs based in Australia and crap. Once you sift through all that garbage there's like 10 real jobs being advertised across the whole country.

:smack:
 
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You don't think they could work out a deal similar to anesthesiology? Where they make the attendings ultimately liable as supervisors and dump all the post-op care on them. Honestly I doubt it'll ever happen simply because most laypeople don't like the idea of a nurse performing any kind of surgery on them. Any sane person would ask for a physician. But again, I wouldn't be surprised.

I think the hurdle is a bit higher in surgery given the need to build technical skills, but recognize that if there was a true movement towards this, surgeons would need to stand united to make sure it didn't happen.

If administrators try to force something like this, I would first suggest they let themselves or their family members be the test patients and see what kind of response they have. :angelic::p
 
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Midlevels will encroach on the easy jobs in all specialties that have easy jobs. If it requires call or years of technical training with long hours, you'll be fine. If your job always has a lunch break...
 
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Cardiology - no midlevel ever enters a cath lab
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ORLANDO, Fla. -- A study by Duke University Medical Center researchers has shown that
physician assistants, with proper training can successfully perform cardiac catheterizations.

"Under the careful supervision of experienced attending cardiologists, trained physician
assistants can perform diagnostic cardiac catheterization, including coronary angiography, with
procedural times and complication rates similar to those of cardiology fellows. This is the first
large study that demonstrates that this is a safe practice," said Dr. Richard Krasuski, a Duke
cardiology fellow who led the study which was presented Wednesday at the 50th Annual
Scientific Session of the American College of Cardiology.

Physician assistants (PAs), who originated at Duke in the 1960s, work with physicians to provide
diagnostic and therapeutic patient care in virtually all medical specialties and settings. Cardiac
catheterization involves threading a thin catheter through a patient's arteries until it reaches the
heart. X-ray dye is then injected to determine if the arteries are blocked.

"With cardiac catheterizations increasing more than 300 percent during the last 10 years,
physician assistants have begun performing more of these procedures under the supervision of
cardiologists. However, there was insufficient evidence before this to support whether this was a
safe practice," Krasuski said.

The Duke study compared 929 diagnostic cardiac catheterizations performed by PAs with
supervision by a cardiologist to 4,521 catheterizations performed by cardiology fellows.
Cardiology fellows are physicians receiving three to four years of advanced training in cardiology
after completing an internal medicine residency. The procedures were performed at Duke
between July 1998, when PAs were first given approval by the institution to perform the
procedure, and April
2000. The patients in the two groups were of similar demographics.

The study showed that the incidence of major complications, such as myocardial infarction (heart
attack), stroke, arrhythmia requiring defibrillation or pacemaker placement, pulmonary edema
requiring mechanical ventilation and vascular complications requiring surgical intervention, were
nearly identical in both groups. For PAs, the complication rate was
0.54 percent as compared to a
0.58 percent complication rate for cardiology fellows.

Additionally, the cases performed by the PAs were done more quickly (
70.2 minutes versus
72.6 minutes by the cardiology fellows), and used less fluoroscopic time (
10.2 minutes as compared to
12.2 minutes). Krasuski noted that the time and fluoroscopic differences were most likely due to
the fact that the patients treated by the fellows were slightly sicker.

"We are not saying that PAs should replace doctors in performing cardiac catheterizations or
should be stand-alone operators. What this study shows is that this is a skill that can be learned
and successfully performed by PAs, thus permitting cardiologists to become more efficient in the
cath lab while maintaining excellent patient care," Krasuski said.

Krasuski added that with the involvement of PAs, cardiologists are freed up to interpret data
generated by the catheterization, plan the patient's follow-up care and even consult with
referring physicians while the case is still going on.

PAs must receive approximately one year of specialized training to properly perform the
procedure. Additionally, they must have advanced life support training, remain up-to-date on the
latest techniques and information on catheterization and be approved by cath lab directors and
faculty to perform catheterizations. Furthermore, cardiologists must be present in the
catheterization suite supervising the PAs and be ready to take over the case should
complications arise.

Joining Krasuski in the study were Dr. John Warner, Dr. Andrew Wang, Dr. J. Kevin Harrison,
John Bolles, Erica Moloney, Carole Ross, Dr. Thomas Bashore and Dr. Michael Sketch Jr.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12772231
 
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Really, it's just the job market. It's been down for years. Take a look on auntminnie.com they're actually listing fellowships as jobs. I mean seriously? Then they also list a bunch of jobs based in Australia and crap. Once you sift through all that garbage there's like 10 real jobs being advertised across the whole country.
Perhaps you shouldn't take aunt Minnie as representative of radiology. Most of our fellows took jobs that were not posted, and of the ones posted, they were to ACR job board.
 
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Perhaps you shouldn't take aunt Minnie as representative of radiology. Most of our fellows took jobs that were not posted, and of the ones posted, they were to ACR job board.

A couple of the Rads residents that I know got jobs straight out of residency. Most do 1 fellowship now, not 2. I would say the Rads market has improved over the last few years.
 
If they are getting trained to do pulmonary and CC medicine at Vandy right now, most specialties aren't safe. All it takes is a medical center willing to train them and then come up with a bogus study, and say see 'they are a s good as physicians'
 
Wrong

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How many NPs do you know? Just out of curiosity. Conservatively, I have probably come across a hundred in the last 5 years of residency and work with maybe 10-12 on a daily basis. I can't think of a single one that fits your image of NPs. I also have yet to see NPs assisting in surgery. I'm sure that they are out there, but it is certainly not even remotely common. PAs on the other hand are in the OR/cathlabs quite a bit. Your commentary about NPs in surgery makes it sound like you don't really know anything about NPs or surgery for that matter beyond the headlines about how evil midlevels are and how they are out to steal our jobs.
 
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Really, it's just the job market. It's been down for years. Take a look on auntminnie.com they're actually listing fellowships as jobs. I mean seriously? Then they also list a bunch of jobs based in Australia and crap. Once you sift through all that garbage there's like 10 real jobs being advertised across the whole country.

Do you believe this to be the case for interventional rads too?
 
Really, it's just the job market. It's been down for years. Take a look on auntminnie.com they're actually listing fellowships as jobs. I mean seriously? Then they also list a bunch of jobs based in Australia and crap. Once you sift through all that garbage there's like 10 real jobs being advertised across the whole country.

The people searching public job postings, especially in specialties are not exactly the strongest. The vast majority of physician recruitment happens through other channels. None of the good or even normal jobs advertise because they can be filled via word of mouth or connections.
 
The people searching public job postings, especially in specialties are not exactly the strongest. The vast majority of physician recruitment happens through other channels. None of the good or even normal jobs advertise because they can be filled via word of mouth or connections.
It does seem like that's a big part of it. Still, compared to sites like gaswork where there's literally thousands of job listings in every area of the country (and those are the bad jobs, like you said), the lack of listings in radiology raises a red flag to me. You don't see anesthesiologists having to do fellowships either to get a job.
 
No way in hell can they acquire the breadth of knowledge required to do Path or Rads. I also agree with Rad Onc and Surgery.
Medicine will be over the day other physicians will treat patients based on a NP pathology report or radiology read, and I am not sure that day is too distant as we might think...
 
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How many NPs do you know? Just out of curiosity. Conservatively, I have probably come across a hundred in the last 5 years of residency and work with maybe 10-12 on a daily basis. I can't think of a single one that fits your image of NPs. I also have yet to see NPs assisting in surgery. I'm sure that they are out there, but it is certainly not even remotely common. PAs on the other hand are in the OR/cathlabs quite a bit. Your commentary about NPs in surgery makes it sound like you don't really know anything about NPs or surgery for that matter beyond the headlines about how evil midlevels are and how they are out to steal our jobs.
You are right that most NP don't assist in surgery, but I actually think @cbrons was not wrong about his overall point. Most NP think they can do everything physicians do if they get a few months training in it.

I worked with them when I was a RN and have many friends who are NP now and that's the feeling I got from them... One even had the cojones to tell me that I am learning in 4 years what she learned in 2 years.
 
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Anybody know about neurons relationship with midlevels? I don't think I have ever seen a neuro midlevel seeing neuro patients on their own. For some reason that just seems way less safe/possible that say a derm NP doing simple acne cases.

The only example I can think is that some busy stroke centers have them but they usually manage the boring yet essential stuff like coordinating PT/OT, speech, and working with social work to find a SNF. I also worked with a PA in the neuro ICU and he basically functioned like a competent resident. He didn't do much decision making but man he was a workhorse and smart too. Honestly, the midlevel involvement I have seen in neuro seems like a win win. Let me know if I am wrong or it is more common in neurology than I believe.

Our hospital was a stroke center and a nuero NP came down from the neuro floor to the ED for every stroke activation.
 
Even coming from someone who started a recent thread denouncing midlevel degree inflation, I don't think there's enough reason to be terrified at all. Someone posted in another thread (sorry forget who) something along the lines of the ones writing the checks know exactly the differences in knowledge and training. If equal pay for equal work goes into effect like it did in Oregon, the incentive to hire midlevels will zero out completely. Of all the careers vulnerable to obscurity in the next 50 years, physicians are probably near the bottom of the list. Go into the field that will give you the most satisfaction, not factors that could change with the stroke of a politicians pen like current salary or midlevel encroachment.
 
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How many NPs do you know? Just out of curiosity. Conservatively, I have probably come across a hundred in the last 5 years of residency and work with maybe 10-12 on a daily basis. I can't think of a single one that fits your image of NPs. I also have yet to see NPs assisting in surgery. I'm sure that they are out there, but it is certainly not even remotely common. PAs on the other hand are in the OR/cathlabs quite a bit. Your commentary about NPs in surgery makes it sound like you don't really know anything about NPs or surgery for that matter beyond the headlines about how evil midlevels are and how they are out to steal our jobs.

Ok guess we'll see what happens in a few years, eh? As emedpa already pointed out, there's a push to allow PAs to perform caths. That's 8 years of post med school training they can skip to perform that function. I'm fairly certain they can and will do similar studies prove their equivalency as "surgical providers" for certain "routine" operations.

I never used the word "evil" or said they are trying to steal anything.


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ORLANDO, Fla. -- A study by Duke University Medical Center researchers has shown that
physician assistants, with proper training can successfully perform cardiac catheterizations.

"Under the careful supervision of experienced attending cardiologists, trained physician
assistants can perform diagnostic cardiac catheterization, including coronary angiography, with
procedural times and complication rates similar to those of cardiology fellows. This is the first
large study that demonstrates that this is a safe practice," said Dr. Richard Krasuski, a Duke
cardiology fellow who led the study which was presented Wednesday at the 50th Annual
Scientific Session of the American College of Cardiology.

Joining Krasuski in the study were Dr. John Warner, Dr. Andrew Wang, Dr. J. Kevin Harrison,
John Bolles, Erica Moloney, Carole Ross, Dr. Thomas Bashore and Dr. Michael Sketch Jr.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12772231

I wouldn't take this as anything other than a 2003 study from one particular program, certainly not as a large push to have PA's perform cardiac catheterizations, which I have not seen or heard any evidence.

Honestly, a diagnostic cath is not that technically difficult to do and I'm sure just about any medical provider with some basic procedural skills/knowledge could be taught to do one safely, but that's not the hard part. The hard part is deciding when and when not to do one, what to do when you run into abnormal anatomy or difficult to locate bypass grafts, and then handling potential catastrophes.
 
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You are right that most NP don't assist in surgery, but I actually think @cbrons was not wrong about his overall point. Most NP think they can do everything physicians do if they get a few months training in it.

I worked with them when I was a RN and have many friends who are NP now and that's the feeling I got from them... One even had the cojones to tell me that I am learning in 4 years what she learned in 2 years.

I have never worked with an NP with that attitude. Ever. And I've worked with many NPs across several different specialties while as a med student and an intern.

The NPs in our clinic see a ton of patients, but they are patients who would otherwise not be seen for weeks as the resident and attending clinics are usually full. They're not taking away patients at all, in fact they are an amazing help. And they have no qualms about asking an attending for help if they're not sure what's going on with the patient or want a second set of eyes on the patient.
 
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It seems that the most virulent anti-midlevel attitudes in these forums are coming from pre-meds and medical students. And pre-clinical medical students at that.

I fully get that some of you are concerned that midlevel clinical knowledge may be an issue with patient safety, but the way it's broadcast in these for a is:
"Midlevels are dangerous!"
"Midlevels don't know they're dangerous!"

And then this devolves to "Midlevels are stealing our jobs!" which is also broadcast as "I went to school for 11 years and I'm better!!" with a glaze of "how dare those peasants move beyond their station!"

So cool it. This is becoming the new "MD vs DO" or "anti-URM" meme here.

I have never worked with an NP with that attitude. Ever. And I've worked with many NPs across several different specialties while as a med student and an intern.

The NPs in our clinic see a ton of patients, but they are patients who would otherwise not be seen for weeks as the resident and attending clinics are usually full. They're not taking away patients at all, in fact they are an amazing help. And they have no qualms about asking an attending for help if they're not sure what's going on with the patient or want a second set of eyes on the patient.
 
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Our hospital was a stroke center and a nuero NP came down from the neuro floor to the ED for every stroke activation.

And what all did they do? Were they with an NP. Did they evaluate and then the MD made the tPA call?


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The vast majority of Mid levels aren't trying to do things that it takes 10 years of training to do with 2 years of training. Especially unsupervised. They would kill people and they would lose their liscense. They know this.
 
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"No specialty is completely proof from midlevel creep. They gain a bit more power and then establish that as a baseline. Then go up a bit. Then establish that as a baseline. Then go up a bit. It's not unconceivable that someone will say down the road, "Do you really need a board-certified surgeon to do something as simple as a gallbladder removal? Let me show you a study which compared NP's performing uncomplicated gallbladders with a surgeon standing by on call to the performance of PGY-2 general surgery residents. Look, no difference!""
- @h4qq_



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I'm a resident..there are NPs and PAs encroaching in every field including surgical subspecialties (although the barrier to enter is tougher in surgery).

Hospital administrations are headed towards a healthcare team approach hence the word "provider" being thrown around for both physicians and mid-level. They will hire PAs and NPs at fraction of the salary of hiring a MD while having a MD oversee several PAs and NPs. That's where medicine is currently headed (anesthesiology is a prime example of such a model)..so over time yes it will become an issue when our job markets will suck even more and drive down our salaries. Win-win for hospital administrations.
 
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"Midlevels are stealing our jobs!" which is also broadcast as "I went to school for 11 years and I'm better!!"

People who went to school for 8 years and did residency for 4 years ARE better. Are you implying that someone who did a nursing program and then a DNP program ( which many have online components) is equal to a doctor? The knowledge gap is immense and to deny that is foolish.



So cool it. This is becoming the new "MD vs DO" or "anti-URM" meme here.

It's not a meme. Its a valid concern based on the ever increasing encroachment by DNP's and PA's. Considering that lots of us here won't be practicing for another 5-9 years, this is a valid concern to have. The fact that you are an adcom to a medical school and are not seeing this as an issue is astonishing.
 
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How many NPs do you know? Just out of curiosity. Conservatively, I have probably come across a hundred in the last 5 years of residency and work with maybe 10-12 on a daily basis. I can't think of a single one that fits your image of NPs. I also have yet to see NPs assisting in surgery. I'm sure that they are out there, but it is certainly not even remotely common. PAs on the other hand are in the OR/cathlabs quite a bit. Your commentary about NPs in surgery makes it sound like you don't really know anything about NPs or surgery for that matter beyond the headlines about how evil midlevels are and how they are out to steal our jobs.

the NP equivalence stuff isn't appearing out of thin air. I'm in middle. I don't think every NP wants to be a doc, but I also don't think only a few do.
 
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It seems that the most virulent anti-midlevel attitudes in these forums are coming from pre-meds and medical students. And pre-clinical medical students at that.

I fully get that some of you are concerned that midlevel clinical knowledge may be an issue with patient safety, but the way it's broadcast in these for a is:
"Midlevels are dangerous!"
"Midlevels don't know they're dangerous!"

And then this devolves to "Midlevels are stealing our jobs!" which is also broadcast as "I went to school for 11 years and I'm better!!" with a glaze of "how dare those peasants move beyond their station!"

So cool it. This is becoming the new "MD vs DO" or "anti-URM" meme here.

ya I want my patients to be well cared for and safe. how evil of me. They are dangerous. that's not a shock value comment. It's a basic statement. Why do we not let a 3rd year do a CABG? It would be dangerous.
 
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I'm a resident..there are NPs and PAs encroaching in every field including surgical subspecialties (although the barrier to enter is tougher in surgery).

Hospital administrations are headed towards a healthcare team approach hence the word "provider" being thrown around for both physicians and mid-level. They will hire PAs and NPs at fraction of the salary of hiring a MD while having a MD oversee several PAs and NPs. That's where medicine is currently headed (anesthesiology is a prime example of such a model)..so over time yes it will become an issue when our job markets will suck even more and drive down our salaries. Win-win for hospital administrations.
ding ding ding. Add to this, GME expansion.
 
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"I know there is. If the market is flooded with primary care docs, then the salaries will drop in city areas. rural areas would then be more appealing. When you have tons of loans, money is important and I am confident more people would go to rural areas in this scenario."

@Astra118 they closed the other one before I could post my reply so I have your quote above.

That's the point though, this is already happening and there are no more people going to these areas than before. The issue runs far deeper than just money. Sometimes the difference in salary can be hundreds of thousands of dollars and people are still choosing the more saturated areas.
 
Cardiology - no midlevel ever enters a cath lab


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Mount Sinai Hospital in NYC has NPs doing diagnostic caths and I believe one does PCI.
 
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That's the point though, this is already happening and there are no more people going to these areas than before. The issue runs far deeper than just money. Sometimes the difference in salary can be hundreds of thousands of dollars and people are still choosing the more saturated areas.

Then the salaries haven't dropped enough.

Also there are still enough positions available in the cities if people are staying there. Eventually, there will be no more job slots in cities and people who graduate from those type of schools will have to go rural.
 
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