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Does anybody know? because i sure don't. Sounds a lot like a chiropractor to me...
What the hel! is PM&R?
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You mean what it stands for? It stands for Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Medicine_and_Rehabilitation
I dont think it is for chiropractors or physical therapists. You need to be a Physiatrist to work in PM&R- which means four years of med school, 1 year intern, 3 years residency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Medicine_and_Rehabilitation
I dont think it is for chiropractors or physical therapists. You need to be a Physiatrist to work in PM&R- which means four years of med school, 1 year intern, 3 years residency.
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This is in no way like a chiropractor. PM&R is a legitimate medical specialty. Do a google search and read up on it. They are actually pretty valuable MD's to have around and the field lends itsself to the possibility of a decent lifestyle as well.
D
deleted87716
Plenty of Money and Relaxation...? 
J/K.
J/K.
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It's a terrible specialty. It's hardly even a specialty. A physiatrist is hardly even a doctor. Just ask Panda Bear about it. And absolutely no one should even think about applying for it. At least for, oh, a year and a half, until I get my application in.
Seriously, I don't understand why it's so uncompetitive right now when it's such a gem. Maybe not plenty of money, but the lifestyle sure ain't bad.
And absolutely no one should even think about applying for it. At least for, oh, a year and a half, until I get my application in. Seriously, I don't understand why it's so uncompetitive right now when it's such a gem. Maybe not plenty of money, but the lifestyle sure ain't bad.
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Maybe its because too many people, and even med students themselves, would call what they do, the same as what a chiropractor does? To be honest when I first heard it, thats what I thought until I did a little research into it.
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I actually did do a search on it a couple of days ago, and got (at best) vague information regarding the specialty. And it, according to the website that you suggested (and I looked at several days ago), sounded a lot like a combination of a chiropractor and physical therapist. Although it's true. I wish that I, the lowly premed, could be as advanced as you, a genuine c/o 2009'er.
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Dude, whats with the premeds coming on this forum and then insulting everyone when we won't do a simple search for them? At this rate, I can't wait to meet the class of 2011 - sounds like they're going to be a dumb, lazy, mean bunch of people.
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i'm not insulting anyone. there was no insult in there at all. nor am i asking for anyone to do a search for me. i've done the search. the search was fruitless. i then decided to make this thread asking people for information. In no way was i asking anyone to do a search for me. i was asking anyone with more knowledge than i on the subject of PM&R for education.
and i made the comment about being a lowly pre-med bc if HE had taken the time to do a search, he would've seen that i'm not a pre-med.
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Go back to the main forum page and look way down the list to the internship/residency category; there's a PM&R forum there where you might find some people willing to answer specific questions about the field if you still have any questions after checking the omniscient and infallible wikipedia...
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Plenty of Money and Relaxation...?
J/K.
thats putting it mildly. Its Friday night and this thread is giving me some real laughs!!!! [at least no one said a bunch of guys who dont want to do any work.]
but honestly Idont think its plenty of money, taking everything into consideration--I think its some money and the wife will probably have to work hard...
Im not ranking on PM&R but for all the sacrifice, time, bothering your parents, heavyweight loans, heavy weight exams, going going from pond scum to multicellular organism, aging and tortuosity.
At least in Family Practice you can say you ARE a gate keeper to the system...
{At lot of PM&R is: myofascial lumbosacral pain syndrome} or {myofascial cervical pain syndrome}
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Actually, we have a couple of physiatrists in our hospital. My buddy is good friends with one of them. The lifestyle is awesome (8-4) job from what I hear. There is no call and the income is something like 80-100K, which is not much but it's a lot less hours than other docs. It is pretty boring, we have a lot of stroke patients in rehab and stuff like that.
I honestly think it would be painfully boring, but I am an adrenaline junky so don't go by my opinion.
I honestly think it would be painfully boring, but I am an adrenaline junky so don't go by my opinion.
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Its kinda sad that even med students don't know what PM&R is really all about....if you are truly curious come down to the PM&R forums to get a better idea of what it really is.
Heres a quick description of the field:
Its a different mindset then most other specialties, as Physical Rehab Docs don't necessarily just take what you have, fix it and call it a day. They take what you have and figure out ways to help you get the most effective and efficient use of it and be as functional as possible in day to day life. This applies in a variety of different settings. In the inpatient setting they medically manage and coordinate the therapies of patients who have suffered traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, strokes, complex orthopedic injuries and a variety of other conditions that leave patients unable to perform vital activities of daily living. When a patient has suffered something major like this, they get stabilized by neurosurg/ortho/er etc and then are left with substantial limitations in physical function and may need a variety of treament modalities such as physical therapy, occupational therapy, speach therapy, social workers, interventional pain procedures, assistive devices such as wheelchairs, or even up to complex prosthesis for amputee patients. Keep in mind that these patients usually have multi-system medical issues from pre-existing conditions and, for example in a spinal cord injury patient, they have complicated neurological/autonomic issues stemming from the accident. These patients would generally be unable to perform the necessary therapies w/o direct and strict medical supervision and intervention. The limitations of function and barriers to getting a patient to their goals and through therapy are all determined and managed by the Physiatrist. Even to the point of determining what kind of special medical equiptment, assistive devices, social services, home modifications, etc that they will need to allow them to function in society after discharge. They also perform consultations on Neurosurg and ortho patients to determine whether the patient will benefit from inpatient rehab, will have to be sent to a nursing home or will be able to go home to maybe outpatient rehab.
In the outpatient setting they practice in a wide variety of different practice settings. Many of todays graduates are choosing some combination of Interventional Pain Management, Sports Medicine, Electrodiagnostic Medicine (EMG's) and Musculoskeletal practices. Many work in groups with Neurosurgeons and Orthopedic Surgeons. Others focus on managing the lifelong issues of the patients discussed in the above paragraph, ie managing spasticity w/ Botox, Baclofen pumps and other neurolytic procedures, providing assistive devices in a prosthetics and orthotics clinic and other issues that are necessary to help these patients regain function.
They may not be saving lives here, but they are saving lifestyles and making lives worth living for these patients. As for salary, it is largely dependant on the type of practice. Inpatient/academic Physiatry is on the lower end of the spectrum and those doing more procedures are on the higher end. The 80-100k figure in the previous thread is well below the norm even for adademic work...I've seen figures b/w 160-300+. It takes a certain type of person to want to enter this field and its certainly not for everyone....but those who enter it usually feel that it is very rewarding work.
I hope that this has given some of you more insight into the field.
Heres a quick description of the field:
Its a different mindset then most other specialties, as Physical Rehab Docs don't necessarily just take what you have, fix it and call it a day. They take what you have and figure out ways to help you get the most effective and efficient use of it and be as functional as possible in day to day life. This applies in a variety of different settings. In the inpatient setting they medically manage and coordinate the therapies of patients who have suffered traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, strokes, complex orthopedic injuries and a variety of other conditions that leave patients unable to perform vital activities of daily living. When a patient has suffered something major like this, they get stabilized by neurosurg/ortho/er etc and then are left with substantial limitations in physical function and may need a variety of treament modalities such as physical therapy, occupational therapy, speach therapy, social workers, interventional pain procedures, assistive devices such as wheelchairs, or even up to complex prosthesis for amputee patients. Keep in mind that these patients usually have multi-system medical issues from pre-existing conditions and, for example in a spinal cord injury patient, they have complicated neurological/autonomic issues stemming from the accident. These patients would generally be unable to perform the necessary therapies w/o direct and strict medical supervision and intervention. The limitations of function and barriers to getting a patient to their goals and through therapy are all determined and managed by the Physiatrist. Even to the point of determining what kind of special medical equiptment, assistive devices, social services, home modifications, etc that they will need to allow them to function in society after discharge. They also perform consultations on Neurosurg and ortho patients to determine whether the patient will benefit from inpatient rehab, will have to be sent to a nursing home or will be able to go home to maybe outpatient rehab.
In the outpatient setting they practice in a wide variety of different practice settings. Many of todays graduates are choosing some combination of Interventional Pain Management, Sports Medicine, Electrodiagnostic Medicine (EMG's) and Musculoskeletal practices. Many work in groups with Neurosurgeons and Orthopedic Surgeons. Others focus on managing the lifelong issues of the patients discussed in the above paragraph, ie managing spasticity w/ Botox, Baclofen pumps and other neurolytic procedures, providing assistive devices in a prosthetics and orthotics clinic and other issues that are necessary to help these patients regain function.
They may not be saving lives here, but they are saving lifestyles and making lives worth living for these patients. As for salary, it is largely dependant on the type of practice. Inpatient/academic Physiatry is on the lower end of the spectrum and those doing more procedures are on the higher end. The 80-100k figure in the previous thread is well below the norm even for adademic work...I've seen figures b/w 160-300+. It takes a certain type of person to want to enter this field and its certainly not for everyone....but those who enter it usually feel that it is very rewarding work.
I hope that this has given some of you more insight into the field.
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classy....
yeah I guess that after doing a 2 month externship at Northwesterns PM&R program this past summer I really don't know much about the field afterall....
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There are actually many career options physiatrists can have. Personally, I'm looking into PM&R it for possibly a sports medicine career (though I'm a couple years away from residency...we'll see what I really end up doing).
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It's frequently what the ex-jock med students go into if they don't do well enough for ortho.
A combo of working with sports and stroke related injuries. Not chiro at all. Taus summed it up pretty nicely.
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It's frequently what the ex-jock med students go into if they don't do well enough for ortho.
Yes, seriously I agree...{and the other extreme is being one of the consults for MVA, workmens comp, and slip and fall injuries....}
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Taus,
Thanks for the info. Based on your externship experience, would you say that PM&R is a specialty that would allow for a decent family life?
racerx
(shunner of dubious information [wikipedia] and MS1)
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PM&R is a hidden gem for students who are into functionality and the musculoskeletal system. The residency is easy to get into and not difficult once you're there. You don't make as much as an Orthopod but you also don't work nearly as hard.
For students who really get off on long-term relationships with people but are not sold on the brain-busting of IM it could be an ideal specialty.
For students who really get off on long-term relationships with people but are not sold on the brain-busting of IM it could be an ideal specialty.
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thats just it: it allows for a decent family life, its just that your wife will probably have to work. Here in the northeast corridor youll probably clear around 150,000k/yr..
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You can bring in more than 150k if you do EMGs and cover multiple hospitals. This is a great specialty with 40-50hrs a week and little to no call.
Of course you have to be happy with little improvement in some patients (ie; huge strokes/MVA).
It can also be like running a hotel sometimes.
Of course you have to be happy with little improvement in some patients (ie; huge strokes/MVA).
It can also be like running a hotel sometimes.
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Median salary is 170K, do a fellowship in pain and you can clear 300K (as listed above), EMGs pay a lot (more so than actually performing a carpal tunnel release or so I've heard), run a small rehab floor as medical director plus do outpatient pain and you are doing quite well (like a doc I used to work for), you can also do botox for spasticity following CVA.
as a PM&R doc you can treat acute SCI and TBI all the way up to elite athletes and professional dancers (sports med/ performing arts med), you can work with kids or do orthotics and prosthetics, or you can do cardiac rehab (obviously the list goes on, the field is quite vast).
If you haven't done a rotation in PM&R probably the closest thing you'll get to it is a Geriatric rotation where the primary interest is independent function and "adding life to years" as opposed to years to life.
enough rambling, as Taus mentioned, go to aapmr.org or the pm&r forum here to learn more about the field
as a PM&R doc you can treat acute SCI and TBI all the way up to elite athletes and professional dancers (sports med/ performing arts med), you can work with kids or do orthotics and prosthetics, or you can do cardiac rehab (obviously the list goes on, the field is quite vast).
If you haven't done a rotation in PM&R probably the closest thing you'll get to it is a Geriatric rotation where the primary interest is independent function and "adding life to years" as opposed to years to life.
enough rambling, as Taus mentioned, go to aapmr.org or the pm&r forum here to learn more about the field
C
Critical Mass
It's frequently what the ex-jock med students go into if they don't do well enough for ortho.
What do you specialize in if you were a wannabe jock med student?
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I think that really depends, I'm doing PM&R research and one of the Dr's I work with does 10-13 hour days at least 3 days a week as a botox/EMG/Pain guy. As with anything else, i think if you wanna make more....work more, if you wanna have a better life...work less (make less).
time=money
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Well, my wife wants to keep working. She is a financial analyst for a big international company, and has worked very hard to get where she is. I'd never dream of asking her to stop working.
Also, why is 150,000 / year so bad? When we were first married, we made it on <20,000 / yr. while I got my previous career off the ground. As long as I can pay off my student loans, live comfortably (not in a 12 bedroom mansion), and put away a little for retirement, I'm good to go! Everything else is just gravy.
racerx
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I'm pretty sure that's the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of sports med docs are ortho, and FP's make up most of the rest. There are sports med docs in ER, Peds, and IM though.
All of the aforementioned non-surgical specialties participate in the sports medicine certification program, where you can do a one year sports med fellowship (ortho has their own). To be a team doc for a division 1 college or pro team, you have to have that certificate. this didn't use to be the case considering sports med is still a very new field. PM&R did not join this initial certification program, and is thus not eligible for sports med certification. however the AAPMR is trying to get their own fellowship programs approved (and i'm sure will). I'm sure they'll use the fact that one of their own (the Sonics doc you mentioned) is a team doc (as the AAP proudly notes on their website).
Please feel free to correct given the preceding statement is mostly hear-say.
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Let's use math to figure our future earning potential shall we? (totally off-thread; I apologize in advance)
As postulated: TIME=MONEY
and from GI Joe: KNOWLEDGE=POWER
and we all recall from Physics I: POWER=WORK/TIME
after substituting: KNOWLEDGE=WORK/MONEY
rearrange: MONEY=WORK/KNOWLEDGE
Therefore, for any given amount of WORK, the less you KNOW, the more MONEY you make. This is why CEOs and Administrators make more MONEY than Drs: they don't know anything.
My sentiments exactly.
I had never heard of PM&R until a month or so ago. I think that this field might fit in well with my engineering background. I guess we will see in a few years.
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Okay....so even some doctors don't know what PM&R is. If a med student happens to be at a medical school where there is no official PM&R department, then I would not expect them to know what it is either. When during most of my medical school career, I had never even heard of it either...but somehow I was enlightened.
Let's not be to hard on those who don't know...just educate. Thanks for putting the explanation.
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As others have talked about below, it is generally conducive to a decent life outside of work....but like anything else it depends on what area of the field you work in and how much you want to work (or make$$).
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While I'm sure that occurs sometimes, the patients of Physiatrists greatly appreciate what they do....and thats what counts. If you're thinking about going into this field w/ prestige being high up on your list of priorities....you might be better off in another field.
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As of a few months ago that was true, however PM&R is now one of the fields that can earn the CAQ in Sports Medicine. You've got to realize that "sports medicine" can mean a lot of different things to different people and isn't just about being a team doc. The Physiatric Association of Sports, Spine and Occupational Medicine (PASSOR) is a governing body/subset of the AAPM&R and has information available about the scope of PM&R docs who provide this type of care. http://www.aapmr.org/passor.htm or http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68723. Please see the FAQ section of the PM&R forum for more information.
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But it's another field where people at OU will look at you like you have 4 eyes if you say you're interested in it.
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But it's another field where people at OU will look at you like you have 4 eyes if you say you're interested in it.
FSU too, assuming they know what a physiatrist even is. Apparently it's not on my spell check...
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But it's another field where people at OU will look at you like you have 4 eyes if you say you're interested in it.
I get the feeling it is that way at many med schools, and it's too bad too. With increased survival and successful treatments of CVA and TBI, the need for physicians knowledgeable in recovery and/or maximizing remaining function is greater than ever.
8
8744
All you really need to know:
http://pandabearmd.blogspot.com/2007/02/two-minute-drill-vi-special-edition.html
Glad I could hep' you.
http://pandabearmd.blogspot.com/2007/02/two-minute-drill-vi-special-edition.html
Glad I could hep' you.
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You say that like it's a bad thing. I, for one, am not looking forward to an endless cycle of hearing people I just met saying: You're a doctor? Really? Could you take a quick look at this disgusting oozing pustule right here on my *****? Oh sorry, did you want to finish eating your dinner first?
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This is what I was going to say as well. Just to clarify, I'm not planning on being a team doc or something and I realize most are orthopedic surgeons. I was just pointing out there are more things you can do with PM&R than many people realize, a sports med fellowship being one.
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That's really interesting! I definitely didn't know that PM&R had a sports med fellowship. Tampa Bay Bucs, here I come!
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racerx and all thx for clearing up PM &R.
Actually I see that 150k/year is not too bad, being about $7000./month in your pocket..
here's how I break it down., monthly
$2000 for mortgage
$1500 for the school loan that seems like it goes for infinity
$1000 for Misc bills
$1000 for savings
$ 600 for car
____________________
$6100 total and $900 left over//with out going crazy I guess that would work and maybe the wife wouldnt have to work hard!!
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Here's the salary info: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=84961
Off the top of my head, there are fellowships available in:
spinal cord injury(SCI)
traumatic brain injury (TBI) / stroke
neuromuscular (although we get enough training during residency to perform EMGs and sit for the AANEM boards without a fellowship unlike most Neurology residencies)
Musculoskeletal/spine
Sports - both ACGME accredited (first batch should be popping up soon within PM&R) and non-accredited through PM&R or other departments. And as an FYI, lots of fellowships are NOT ACGME accredited including Orthopedic surgery and neurosurgery fellowships.
Pain - both ACGME accredited and non-accredited through PM&R, Neurology, Psychiatry, or Anesthesia
pediatrics - 2 years, or combined PM&R-Peds residency + 1 year fellowship
Hospice Palliative Care
Check out the medical student section of the AAPMR website for more info: http://aapmr.org/medstu.htm
Also, if you are near Anaheim this Saturday 2/23 - the AAP (Association of Academic Physiatrists - physiatry.org) is having its annual assembly and there will be a medical student program there at 10am. http://physiatry.org/annual_event/index.cfm
If you miss that, there will be another medical student program in San Diego next November during the AAPM&R annual assembly.
You can also find a mentor on sdn through the PM&R forum - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=427923
or via the AAPM&R http://aapmr.org/medstu/mentorsearch.htm
hope this helps
Off the top of my head, there are fellowships available in:
spinal cord injury(SCI)
traumatic brain injury (TBI) / stroke
neuromuscular (although we get enough training during residency to perform EMGs and sit for the AANEM boards without a fellowship unlike most Neurology residencies)
Musculoskeletal/spine
Sports - both ACGME accredited (first batch should be popping up soon within PM&R) and non-accredited through PM&R or other departments. And as an FYI, lots of fellowships are NOT ACGME accredited including Orthopedic surgery and neurosurgery fellowships.
Pain - both ACGME accredited and non-accredited through PM&R, Neurology, Psychiatry, or Anesthesia
pediatrics - 2 years, or combined PM&R-Peds residency + 1 year fellowship
Hospice Palliative Care
Check out the medical student section of the AAPMR website for more info: http://aapmr.org/medstu.htm
Also, if you are near Anaheim this Saturday 2/23 - the AAP (Association of Academic Physiatrists - physiatry.org) is having its annual assembly and there will be a medical student program there at 10am. http://physiatry.org/annual_event/index.cfm
If you miss that, there will be another medical student program in San Diego next November during the AAPM&R annual assembly.
You can also find a mentor on sdn through the PM&R forum - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=427923
or via the AAPM&R http://aapmr.org/medstu/mentorsearch.htm
hope this helps
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So why did you all choose PMR over other sweet-deal fields like Radiology or Optho? Usually medical students flock to the R.O.A.D. specialties... do you all think PMR should be part of one of the ROAD fields?
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Radiology: Like looking at images, like the procedures. Kept falling asleep in the reading room during my rotations. Didn't think I am detail oriented enough to be a good radiologist. That and I suck at physics.
Opthy: Hate surgery
Anesthsia: Hate surgery, OR (see above)
Derm: Not smart enough, almost threw up daily during the derm portion of pathophys.
That and my dad is a physiatrist.
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I don't believe any of these have as good of lifestyle as PM&R except Derm but I didn't have the grades for Derm and was just more interested in musculoskeletal medicine.
Plus my dad is an occ med doc and I wanted to work with him.
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Wow this marks the first time I've posted in TRA's forum, instead of him posting in mine.
PMR is definitely a route to sports medicine, but there are an extremely limited amount of fellowships housed within PMR departments (I heard somebody say 2, but I have no verification on that). The vast majority of PC sports medicine fellowships are on family medicine turf and althrough PMR residents may certainly apply and some are taken, FM residents (usually from the home institution of the fellowship) have a pretty solid lock on it. As usual, I'm sure a few people will throw boring anecdotes my way about their cousin's roommate who got into sports medicine from PMR so I must be wrong -- a preemptive pat on the head to all of them. This is just a quick warning to anyone planning on going into PMR with the intention of coasting into a sports medicine fellowship.
Also, since no one else has explicitly stated it, sports medicine formally differentiates between primary care (PC) sports medicine (for family med docs, et al.) and surgical sports medicine, which is a fellowship available only after an orthopaedic residency. They are two completely separate fields.
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Don't fret fellow PMRs. Sports is a new frontier for us and we've only just begun starting up PMR sports fellowships. And don't forget about the probably more valuable sports/spine fellowships where you learn sports med AND spine interventional procedures.
-chris
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There is no way that PM+R wont have a stronger hold on sports med in the near future. Most IM/FP/ER docs havent even heard of an IT band!!!
