what to consider in considering med schools

[rackd8ball]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hopefully this goes out to current MDs ...

Now that you're in med school and have gotten a hang of the ropes, what did you find out about med school that you didn't know pre-matriculation?

Anything become more important than you thought it would?

Has anything mattered less than you thought?

Thanks for any input!

 

[::Seabass::]

location, location, location!!!!

seriously, go for the school where you will be happiest because if you're miserable, studying is impossible. doing poorly at a good name school won't cut it and being miserable for 4 years of your life (that will be hard in ways you can't imagine and I can't impart to you now, you just got to live it) would suck. think about how old you will be going in and coming out, most likely they are still formative years of your life. go somewhere where you can define yourself as someone outside of how well you do in school. I see these people who have only defined themselves as having good grades their whole life just kind of cracking. the people who get involved in other stuff are the ones who are really thriving because they know how to balance.

Unless you are hardcore into research, I also think it is more important to select a school based on what your clinical experience is going to be like (versus preclinical, it all sucks. everyone whines at every school about all the dumb stuff they have to learn.) I look at our third years and they are all a happy bunch and still enjoy even the rotations that they hate. Then I hear from others who are miserable, get screamed at, are belitted on a daily basis, don't want to get out of bed in the morning, etc and I'm glad I made the decision I did. When it comes right down to it, honoring all your 3rd year classes is better than honoring all your preclinical stuff.

having lectures videotaped is good (for me, but others don't use them at all.)

and most of all, somewhere where you fit in. you're gonna need some buddies and someone to relate to.

 

[jbish]

I didn't really think about this when applying but you should totally decide if you want to go to a school that is more based in problem-solving (PBL) or regular lecture-structured learning. McGill is mostly lecture but has a component of problem-based (small groups) and I found out after the year had started that I cannot stand small group and thrive in lecture. It's a good thing I didn't go to a PBL-only school like McMaster as I'd really be hurting right now.

 

[Samoa]

And I'm just the opposite--I like the PBLs, because they show me how much I've learned compared to what I knew before. It's really cool to be able to solve a problem that my pharmacy background helps me *nada* with. I know I couldn't have done that even at the top of my game as a pharmacist.

 

[alina_s]

If you can, find out about 3rd year rotations. My school sends us to several different hospitals, which have different directors for each rotation and thus, different requirements and call schedules. Some of programs and directors are more benign than others. Of course, the day to day experience depends a lot on who you work with, not the program directors, and that is random, but you may discover that you are much healthier on a Q5 than a Q4 schedule.

 

[jbish]

Samoa writes:
And I'm just the opposite--I like the PBLs, because they show me how much I've learned compared to what I knew before. It's really cool to be able to solve a problem that my pharmacy background helps me *nada* with. I know I couldn't have done that even at the top of my game as a pharmacist.

So basically you're agreeing with me in the fact that doing PBL or Lecture-based can really change how you enjoy med school. I think PBLs suck. That's my opinion, obviously some people love them or I doubt the universities that run strictly on PBL would still be like that. Actually, I hear universities that are strictly PBL are pulling back from this format as fewer people in these institutions are passing the standardized exams and they're heading back towards lecture curricula...but the point of my original post was to say it's something I didn't think about At All before I started school and it now makes a big difference in my med school experience.

 

[8744]

First of all, you shouldn't even consider going to a medical school that didn't accept you.

Three most important criteria:

Acceptence, acceptence, acceptence.


And I think PBL sucks, too, but I don't mean this as a flame to anybody. I don't think I have the self-discipline to be completely in charge of my education. I need a little structure, you understand.

My school is "Organ System Based" which is cool except I think we get short-changed in a couple of areas, particularly pharmacology.

Some subjects which are better presented as a whole get integrated into the curriculum, like pharm, and become disjointed in the process. To this day, people in my class question whether we actually had any pharmacology classes. I mean, we did but they were so strung out that it's like we didn't.

Microbiology, thankfully, was kept as one discrete course rather then being spread out over two years.

Oh, and I despise "small group learning" especially in a group small enough where everybody has to participate.

Jeez. Just give me the friggin' syllabus, tell me when we have exams, and let me sit peacefully in lecture soaking up all that knowledge. We get plenty of "group dynamics," conferences, and other circle-jerks in third and fourth year.

 

[Samoa]

Yep I was agreeing with you, jbish. And I should clarify--my school is not all PBL. I can't imagine actually trying to *learn* in a PBL format--to me it's just feedback on how well I've learned and integrated the stuff from lecture. Yeah, it's great to be able to identify the correct factoid on a multiple choice test, and we need to be able to do that to pass our boards, but PBLs use the knowledge the way we'll be using it in real life.

 

[MeowMix]

PBL and small-group learning are problematic because they require a skillful teacher/facilitator. That does not come naturally to anyone who learned primarily through lectures - people teach in the way in which they were taught - and it takes a while to develop PBL teaching skills. I would guess that part of the reason students hate it is that the instructor doesn't have that skill yet. It takes more time, for sure, but in a good course the students should retain more of the content and understand it better, instead of forgetting everything after the final.

So, if your favorite school offers a substantial PBL component, I would be looking at whether they invest time in faculty professional development to prepare them to teach effectively. Also, you can expect that the first couple of years of any new PBL curriculum will be traumatic for students and faculty.

 

[auster]

The biggest thing for me that I didn't realize would be important is the fact that we only have one class at a time (plus one "soft" class). I would HATE to have multiple classes at once!
Also I don't think I would do well at a ABCDF school... H/P/F, or P/F is good.
Happy classmates is a big thing - I would HATE to be around miserable gunners, or competitive a-holes. (luckily, I'm not

 

[UnderDoc]

I agree with most of the advice that others have posted. I would also add that you should find out whether the school likes to churn out superspecialist research types or primary care people as this may dictate what sort of curriculum you're exposed to. Being at an institution that jibes with what you envision your ultimate career path to be will just make it that much easier.

Also, I would inquire as to where, geographically, your 3rd year rotations may be distributed relative to the school itself. I've heard lots of horror stories of people having to traipse ungodly distances and/or relocate every six weeks for their rotations. If you're a person who savors some modicum of stability in your life, this may not be for you.

 

[Dr. Lector]

go to a school that has p/f, it makes life less stressful. Go to the cheaper state school then the big name private.

 

[Auricae]

After reading the first post on location, I was almost convinced that I need to go to NU. Then after reading the last post on choosing the cheaper state school, I am back to being unsure. Can the last poster please elaborate?

 

[Varblade]

I come from a school where PBL and lectures are mixed. imho this is the best combo. lectures maintain the structure of what is core and important while pbl stresses more on application of the content of the lecture in clinical settings. this makes studying medicine fun! ( surprise ! ).. besides.. PBL's make u actually pick up a reference book and do some extra reading as ur responsible to teach someone else about something.. so dont screw up as ur potentially dangering 10 other patients at some point or another.
but.. the most imp thing is.. pbl at my school does not take the responsibility of teaching core concepts and info..

lectures alone are just time consuming and boring.. making medic a chore more then something interesting

pbl alone is gona put alot of responsibility on a young student who is not sure exactly how far the depth he/she should learn.

vijay

 

[medmo]

I go to a state school instead of a private. And as student loans become more of a building reality waiting for me at the end, I am more and more grateful that I am paying less for med school. Of course, there are possible trade-off's. Is the quality of education different? Will the private help put you in position for a great residency and a better-paying career, thus negating the undesired increase in tuition and loans? Or will it simply help you to become a better physician? For both questions, probably not, but I can't answer that for sure.

When I was considering schools, I did have some input from some good doctor friends of my family. One is part of selecting residents for Orthopedic Surgery, a highly competitive specialty. They all told me that the name of the school didn't matter. However, board scores and grades do matter. Now we're back to "will the private school get me better board scores?" Again, probably not, but I can't really answer that.

I think you have to pick the place where you think you will be happiest (in day-to-day living), where you'll be most able to enjoy your education. That means considering the curriculum, the atmosphere, and the location. On the curriculum, I think people have covered that pretty well. As far as atmosphere, is it a congenial, helpful atmosphere? Or is it ultra-competitive? And the location can be huge. I'm in my hometown. My mom brings me food every now and then. I see my good friends from outside of medschool. I know where to go when I have car trouble, when I want to go for a run, or when I want to get a beer.

Complex decision. The good news is, you're going to be a doctor, no matter where you go. If you're excited about it, and try to focus on becoming a good doc, then I think you'll be fine.

 

[ForceField]

To elaborate on what Dr. Lector said, firstly you should pick where you'll be happiest, because if you're unhappy, then you probably won't do well. However, happiness is more a state of mind than where you are. You're as happy as you choose to be, and regardless of the school, the student must do well on his/her own. Not all students at NU are happy, and not all students at a state school are happy... it is up to the individual.

If someone graduates from their state school with AOA and awesome board scores, and another student graduates from NU with board scores that approximate the national average, then obviously the student from the state school will land more competitive residencies because he/she will actually make it to the interview in the first place.

The only difference is if both students did equally well, then the student from NU may land a residency at a better hospital, BUT it still comes down to so many other things, like the interview, if your interviewer even liked you and rated you favorably, etc.

So in conclusion, no the reputation doesn't mean everything, unless you're at Harvard or Hopkins... with everything else it's mainly up to you and how well you do. Check the matchlists at your state schools; there's a sizeable number of students who matched at Harvard, Hopkins, etc.

Lastly, do you know what specialty you want to do? If you don't, what if you end up wanting to do pediatrics/primary care and then go to an expensive private school that costs you 200 grand +? Our Dean of Student Affairs here is a Psychiatrist, graduated from the University of Chicago in 1981, and told us her loans would be paid off in the year 2017! A lot of people don't realize the implications of taking so many loans just for the sake of the name of a school, but it is a factor that must be taken into account.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bevo]

I think pbl could be better, but at least from my experience here I spend more time explaining concepts we learned in previous courses or are currently learning.

So instead of actually discussing cases, i end up lecturing my classmates on stuff they were supposed to have learned. If I don't I get pissy and bored.

If you have the choice to choose, make sure its a place you'll be happy to be living in.

I didn't get that choice, but Im living with it. What keeps me going is the hope that I'll be able to leave Ross in 8 months and start my clinicals then in the US.

Other than that, get an idea of what field you'd like to get into (I know most people change their minds a million times in clinicals though). A better school can help you. But won't break you if you don't go there either.

 

[lola]

Originally posted by rackd8ball

Anything become more important than you thought it would?

Has anything mattered less than you thought?

more important: number of hours in class, p/f grading system. i am SO glad i chose a school with relatively few class hours. i can't emphasize enough how much easier it is to study 2 or 3 hrs after class when you get out at noon vs. 3 or 4pm. also, i'm really glad my school has h/p/f. p/f would probably be preferable to me, but h/p/f is so much better than grades. i don't have to dwell over stupid mistakes on exams, because i know that as long as i understand the material it doesn't matter.

less important: curriculum, frequency of exams/quizzes. for me, i'm glad i went with my gut and desire to be close to friends and family rather than going for a school with a curriculum i really wanted. i find that lectures 95% of time (vs. more of a mix of pbl/lecture) is fine. i also thought that having exams and quizzes once/week or once/two weeks would be terrible, but i'm finding that i actually prefer this to exams every 4-6 weeks. i'm someone who is not very motiviated, so having frequent exams makes me stay on top of the material.

i say go with your gut! if you feel good about the school, like the location, and feel like you would be happy there, it is probably the school for you!

 

[babinski bob]

I think without a doubt, the most important determinant is cost. 20 years down the road, the only thing you're going to care about is whether on not you still have an enormous debt hanging above your head. If you have to choose between 2 schools whose total difference in cost is significant, go to the cheaper school. If the difference is relatively minimal (~20K), then go to the school that you think will make you happier. All medical schools in the US will provide you with an outstanding education. Each school has its selling points. For example, big name schools like JHU, Harvard tend to have awesome research ops but don't have as strong of preclinical training (the profs are more devoted to their research than teaching... makes sense... then again, these students are of such high caliber that they can figure out what's important to know without having good profs). In any case, I guarantee that if you ask med students of today 20 years from now, the happiest ones will be those who no longer have enormous debt hanging above their head.

 

[Auricae]

Yes, I agree with what you're saying but....

After having worked so hard through high school and college, I have come to a life realization of sorts. It seems that we spend too much of our lives projecting ahead to some future goal and never enjoying where we are at the moment.

We work hard in high school to get into a good college. We work hard in college to get into a good med school. We work hard in med school to get into a good residency. We work hard at residency to get good contacts and set up a good practice. We work hard as a physician so we can pay off debts and have retirement money. Then what? We die! We may die rich but who cares?

My question is, what are we working so hard for? Are we doing all of this so that when we are 70 years old, we have plenty of money to sit on and we can retire in comfort? I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather enjoy my life UP to the age of 70 as well!

In other words, I feel like 4 years of your youth may BE worth the debt you owe later. If it will make you happy for those 4 years, then can you really say it was not worth it? People who suggest sacrificing happiness now for future happiness usually end up unhappy all of their lives. Their entire life becomes a sacrifice for some future happiness that never materializes.

Then again, I may be saying all of this just to convince myself that I SHOULD pay a lot more money to go to a school I like when I really don't believe it =)

 

[ForceField]

Originally posted by Auricae
Yes, I agree with what you're saying but....

After having worked so hard through high school and college, I have come to a life realization of sorts. It seems that we spend too much of our lives projecting ahead to some future goal and never enjoying where we are at the moment.

We work hard in high school to get into a good college. We work hard in college to get into a good med school. We work hard in med school to get into a good residency. We work hard at residency to get good contacts and set up a good practice. We work hard as a physician so we can pay off debts and have retirement money. Then what? We die! We may die rich but who cares?

My question is, what are we working so hard for? Are we doing all of this so that when we are 70 years old, we have plenty of money to sit on and we can retire in comfort? I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather enjoy my life UP to the age of 70 as well!

In other words, I feel like 4 years of your youth may BE worth the debt you owe later. If it will make you happy for those 4 years, then can you really say it was not worth it? People who suggest sacrificing happiness now for future happiness usually end up unhappy all of their lives. Their entire life becomes a sacrifice for some future happiness that never materializes.

Then again, I may be saying all of this just to convince myself that I SHOULD pay a lot more money to go to a school I like when I really don't believe it =)

You make it sound like the cheaper school will make you unhappier. It has nothing to do with the school, it has to do with you. You're as happy as you choose to be. I picked my state school over many private schools and I'm happy with the decision. It's located close to home, is cheap, the students here are friendly, and I'm getting an equally solid education... so why should I be unhappy? In addition, my debts will be paid off sooner, which is an added bonus once I graduate.

 

[Auricae]

Sorry, I didn't mean to equate more expensive schools with greater happiness. My point is that, IF a more expensive school better fits your needs and will make you happier, then it may justify the cost, since it is four years of your life that you can never get back.

 

[souljah1]

I guess I would consider things that fall into two major categories.

The first category deals with happiness and includes things like location, P/F, the character of the overall student body, tuition, and whether or not you feel like you fit in and feel comfortable. I know that some of those are very difficult things to assess on one interview day, but if you go into your interviews mindful of these sorts of things - then I think you'll have a greater chance of determining whether or not you'd enjoy yourself at a given school.

The second category deals with opportunity. I think that it is easy to get caught up in things like what an anatomy lab looks like, how many lectures per day, the library, etc. - but I think it is even more important to consider aspects of the curricula that come later in your traning. For instance, what hospitals will you rotate through if you decided to attend a given school?.. Third year is the most important year in medical school and it is generally where you will learn and grow the most. Also, does the school provide means for international experience? Teaching as a fourth year? How do students fare in the match when it comes time? I'm not one who puts much stock in all of the US News stuff, but I think the single most important category to look at is the reputation of a school in the eyes of residency directors. It is also easy to ask around and get an overall gestalt about how happy third/fourth year students are in regards to their learning/training.

So, in the end...I would say try to pick an institution where you will feel the most comfortable and happy (b/c I firmly believe that it will allow you to perform better and without as much stress), but also one where you will have a great deal of opportunity when it comes to gaining clinical experience.

 

[medmo]

My question is, what are we working so hard for? Are we doing all of this so that when we are 70 years old, we have plenty of money to sit on and we can retire in comfort? I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather enjoy my life UP to the age of 70 as well!

I don't know how relevant my response is to the original topic of the thread, but . . .

I think this is something that all of us have to confront at some point. I think you have to draw a line between accomplishing something for the sake of the achievement itself, and accomplishing something for yourself. If your motivation is solely getting the grade etc, and you're not doing it for yourself, soon you'll start to deny yourself and begin to resent the grade. If your motivation is yourself, then you won't be denying yourself. That may sound like a bunch of confusing crap, but I think there is some truth to it.

My point is, figure out what you want for YOU. You'll have a much better chance of actually enjoying the hard work, even before age of 70.

 

[ForceField]

Regarding rankings, bear in mind that there's a handful of schools that don't respond to U.S. News and World Report surveys, and thus aren't ranked. How do they rank to residency directors? Who knows...

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by ForceField
Regarding rankings, bear in mind that there's a handful of schools that don't respond to U.S. News and World Report surveys, and thus aren't ranked. How do they rank to residency directors? Who knows...

Which schools are these? I only know of Tulane.

 

[osar92]

I believe they told as at Penn State that they dont subscribe to US news rankings as well. Dont know of any other schools though.

 

[ForceField]

University of Illinois, Rush, Loyola, and Finch don't respond to rankings. If you check the U.S. News and World Report Webpage, click on methodology or details about the rankings or whatever. There should come a point where you can click on individual schools. For the schools that fill out the surveys, U.S. News gives their statistics... if a school doesn't reply to the rankings, the webpage will read, "This school did not return U.S. New Surveys," or something like that. I think out of the 125 medical schools, 117 of them filled the surveys out. In the past Tulane didn't respond to the surveys... this year, however, they did respond and were ranked in the top 60 or 70 or whatever. Hope this helps.

 

[lola]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Which schools are these? I only know of Tulane.

that's not true. they actually do respond but aren't ranked in the top 50. when they started ranking more than 50, tulane appeared on the list in the 50's or 60's.

 

[::Seabass::]

Originally posted by lola
that's not true. they actually do respond but aren't ranked in the top 50. when they started ranking more than 50, tulane appeared on the list in the 50's or 60's.

they didn't send in their stuff, this past year was the first year they did.

I don't think any of the other texas schools submit their stuff besides baylor, utsw, houston and I THINK utsa. guess that only leaves utmb, tech, and a&m.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by lola
that's not true. they actually do respond but aren't ranked in the top 50. when they started ranking more than 50, tulane appeared on the list in the 50's or 60's.

My mistake, thanks for the correction lola. Also thanks for the update seaworthc, I thought I had heard that somewhere.

 

[fellowserv]

While interviewing at UPenn they made the claim that almost all their students score 2 standard deviations above the mean on the USMLE Step 1 exam.

Their explanation was that because they start their clinical years in January of year 2, they wait to take their Step 1 until after they finish their main "year 3" rotations in January of year 3. I didn't even know that was possible.

Anyone else heard of this? This seems to suggest that where you go to school could have a very strong impact on your USMLE scores...