What to improve/when to reapply?

[Prestige88]

So it's been an unsuccessful cycle for me so far. Applied to 12 schools:
4 rejected pre-II
2 rejected post-II (including state school, ouch)
1 "interview hold" (MCW's small pool, since September)
5 silence (aaaand it's February)

Applied right away, secondaries submitted in July.
3.9+ GPA, 515+ MCAT
~700 hours parasitology research
~250 clinical volunteering hours at free clinic, loads of patient interaction, wrote about it a ton, honestly my favorite part of the pre-med process so far.
~25 hours shadowing OR too (Doesn't a free clinic count as "shadowing?")
If I have to go around again, I'd increase my volunteering and try to get involved in more non-clinical volunteer activities. Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what's holding me back.

As far as the interviews go, I think they could have gone a little better (people talk about really connecting with their interviewer and I never quite got that sense) but also much, much worse.

Should I reapply again right away, or skip a cycle?
Are there glaring holes that I'm missing in need of shoring up before I reapply? Did I just get unlucky because "it's a competitive process?"

I'm open to all the advice I can get! I felt confident about my application this time, but apparently something just wasn't right. The sooner I can find it and knock this whole process out of the park, the happier I'll be.
@LizzyM @Goro @gyngyn

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[LizzyM]

Twelve schools is a short list. Why did you cut it short? Did you limit your list to a specific geographic area? If yes, why?
what is 515+? Balanced? any subscore < 125?
3.9 from what school and what major?
State of residence?
How much time did you devote to secondaries? Looking back were they well done? Did you make any glaring errors like sending an essay to a school that inadvertantly contained the name of another school?
Did your personal statement and/or secondaries make statements that could come across as egotistical, being God's gift to medicine and/or a shoo-in for admission?
Did anything you write about the free clinics violate a patient's right to privacy or otherwise come across as unseemly?

Until you make an unflinching assessment of what went wrong this cycle and what needs to be fixed and how long it could take to fix, you are not ready to reapply.

 

[Microbug]

Also, is your school list top heavy?

 

[DrDwayneJohnson]

Initial thoughts: top-heavy school list, shaky interviewing skills, and not applying to enough schools.

Getting interviews at 25% of your schools is a pretty solid amount. Good news is that this is an easy fix. Just apply more broadly and do a lot more mock interviews/read Dr. Gray's guide to the med school interview.

 

[Prestige88]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Twelve schools is a short list. Why did you cut it short? Did you limit your list to a specific geographic area? If yes, why?

I stuck with 12 because of financial reasons and I was (apparently over-)confident that I was competitive with my stats and ECs on that list. I limited it to the Midwest-ish to be at least somewhat close to family/girlfriend. Plus, I enjoy the area, generally speaking.

what is 515+? Balanced? any subscore < 125?

516 (128/130/129/129)

3.9 from what school and what major?
State of residence?

Wisconsin (go Pack go!). Biology major at a UW system school (not Madison). There's so few pre-meds at this school that in the interest of anonymity, I'll leave it at that (as I think I'm supposed to do per forum rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm fairly new to SDN).

How much time did you devote to secondaries? Looking back were they well done? Did you make any glaring errors like sending an essay to a school that inadvertantly contained the name of another school?

I turned them around within a week or two. Looking back, while they weren't the best things I've written, they seemed solid to me. One of the best ones imo was to the school that just gave me a post-II rejection🙁. I checked and double checked school names 🙂.

Did your personal statement and/or secondaries make statements that could come across as egotistical, being God's gift to medicine and/or a shoo-in for admission?

I don't believe so. I tried to be humble yet confident, sort of a "I have a ton to learn, but I look forward to the challenge" attitude.

Did anything you write about the free clinics violate a patient's right to privacy or otherwise come across as unseemly?

Once again, I don't believe so. I tried to strike a balance between respect privacy/not too many gory details and not being generic. Would a PM of the relevant paragraphs be worth my/your time?

Until you make an unflinching assessment of what went wrong this cycle and what needs to be fixed and how long it could take to fix, you are not ready to reapply.

That's what I'm trying to do right now: swallow my pride and get back to work.

Also, is your school list top heavy?

I don't think so. A few top, the rest mid tier. Should I post the list?

 

[Prestige88]

Initial thoughts: top-heavy school list, shaky interviewing skills, and not applying to enough schools.

Getting interviews at 25% of your schools is a pretty solid amount. Good news is that this is an easy fix. Just apply more broadly and do a lot more mock interviews/read Dr. Gray's guide to the med school interview.

My interviewing skills could be shaky, I suppose. Both the career services/interviewer guy on campus and my pre-med advisor said I should be fine with interviews. Those are just two people's opinions, though. I did 1 mock interview and had family/SO fire questions at me prior to both interviews.
I should clarify - the "hold" at MCW is pre-II. 2/12 interviews.

 

[Prestige88]

Rejected pre-II: Vanderbilt, Mayo (MN), Geisel, Michigan
Rejected post-II: Wisconsin, OUWB
"small pool" MCW
Silence: Rosalind Franklin, WUSTL, SLU, Loyola, Creighton

 

[DrDwayneJohnson]

My interviewing skills could be shaky, I suppose. Both the career services/interviewer guy on campus and my pre-med advisor said I should be fine with interviews. Those are just two people's opinions, though. I did 1 mock interview and had family/SO fire questions at me prior to both interviews.
I should clarify - the "hold" at MCW is pre-II. 2/12 interviews.

Ah, my apologies for the misinterpretation with MCW. I personally don't think career services mock interviews prepared me at all for medical school admissions. The interviews are pretty different in nature. The tricky part about interviewing is that it's really hard to tell if you're shaky at them. I felt that if I got an interview last year, I'd be fine. I didn't do extra mock interviews this year. Instead, I just listed 3-5 bullet points for anticipated questions, read that book I mentioned, and went for it. All in all, I don't think I did anything too different this year so it might just be a luck scenario in terms of connecting with someone.

 

[Microbug]

Rejected pre-II: Vanderbilt, Mayo (MN), Geisel, Michigan
Rejected post-II: Wisconsin, OUWB
"small pool" MCW
Silence: Rosalind Franklin, WUSTL, SLU, Loyola, Creighton

You could be in a weird spot where you don’t stand out for the top schools and is above the numbers for the lower tier school, and did not apply to enough mid tier schools

 

[Prestige88]

Ah, my apologies for the misinterpretation with MCW. I personally don't think career services mock interviews prepared me at all for medical school admissions. The interviews are pretty different in nature. The tricky part about interviewing is that it's really hard to tell if you're shaky at them. I felt that if I got an interview last year, I'd be fine. I didn't do extra mock interviews this year. Instead, I just listed 3-5 bullet points for anticipated questions, read that book I mentioned, and went for it. All in all, I don't think I did anything too different this year so it might just be a luck scenario in terms of connecting with someone.

I'm worried about reapplying without significant changes to talk about, however. And I could be wrong, but shouldn't the II numbers be higher if it's just an interviewing problem? Thanks for the suggestion about the book - spring break reading, perhaps.

You could be in a weird spot where you don’t stand out for the top schools and is above the numbers for the lower tier school, and did not apply to enough mid tier schools

That's what I'm somewhat worried about. Solution - apply more mid tier and try to stand out more, I guess?

 

[LizzyM]

If you don't have the cash to apply to at least 20 schools, take a year off, save money and apply in 2019.
You are going to need to get out of your comfort zone. Someone from a non-flagship school in Wisconsin is not a novelty in Michigan, Illinois or Missouri but might be in Philly or New York, or Louisiana. Give some schools outside of the Midwest some thought.

Getting turned down (not even waitlisted) at two schools does suggest that you need some work on interviewing. Try to set something up with someone who doesn't know you and and who is at least 50 years old. Try the parent of an acquaintance or someone like that who works in a professional capacity (not necessarily a doc ). Get comfortable having conversations about yourself and your interests with older adults. Learn how to describe your interests and research activities in a way that is engaging and easy for a layperson to understand. Learn to communicate clearly, concisely and with a minimum of filler. Learn when to stop talking and to let the interviewer ask a follow-up.

 

[theonlytycrane]

Solid but basic applicant so you don’t stand out unless you crush your interview.

Silence from a few schools that feel you’re low yield for them.

This process is lame... keep your head up. Scribe/work over the next year, keep volunteering, crush interviews next round and you’ll be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Prestige88]

If you don't have the cash to apply to at least 20 schools, take a year off, save money and apply in 2019.

If I can be competitive for this next cycle, I'd much rather apply now. I should be able to find money one way or another......

You are going to need to get out of your comfort zone. Someone from a non-flagship school in Wisconsin is not a novelty in Michigan, Illinois or Missouri but might be in Philly or New York, or Louisiana. Give some schools outside of the Midwest some thought.

Is that a good type of novelty? I thought standing out wasn't always a good thing, especially since my school isn't a flagship - could it be perceived as a weakness? They had a National Merit scholarship, which I put on my app - does that matter to adcoms? It's why I went there.

Thanks for the advice on interview prep!

 

[onyxbell]

If I can be competitive for this next cycle, I'd much rather apply now.

Isn't there some stigma against back-to-back re-applicants? In essence some med school websites state that a major reason re-applicants suffer is because they didn't improve on their weakest link. And typically the weakest link takes some time commitment and hence they recommend a gap between cycles.

Also how's your non-clinical volunteering?

 

[Prestige88]

Also how's your non-clinical volunteering?

I wonder if this is a factor. I don't have anything listed explicitly as "non-clinical volunteering" in my app, but much of my paid work (piano accompaniment) has volunteer/community parts to it that I addressed in the essay about it (it was one of my most meaningful experiences). But I get paid, so I listed it as a job. I was thinking about ramping up volunteering once I have more time this semester and in the great void afterwards. Could that have been a contributing factor?

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

Could that have been a contributing factor?

Big time.

 

[DBC03]

I wonder if this is a factor. I don't have anything listed explicitly as "non-clinical volunteering" in my app, but much of my paid work (piano accompaniment) has volunteer/community parts to it that I addressed in the essay about it (it was one of my most meaningful experiences). But I get paid, so I listed it as a job. I was thinking about ramping up volunteering once I have more time this semester and in the great void afterwards. Could that have been a contributing factor?

I did countless hours of volunteering with my photography business, which I described in the experience description, but didn’t list. I feel like that was a huge mistake on my part this cycle, so I can see how that is one change you should make when/if you reapply.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Prestige88]

Big time.

How do I add non-clinical volunteering and not have it look like I'm checking off boxes? I mean I can list some of the piano stuff separately (for example, hours of extraneous practicing with singers etc). But if I, say, start volunteering at the homeless shelter or somewhere brand new next week, does that look suspicious?
It seems like there's a fine line between "I'm taking this feedback from a failed cycle and applying it and improving by making service a more documentably integral part of my life" and "I'm improving just to get in, not because I actually care." Any advice on how to navigate that?

 

[LizzyM]

How do I add non-clinical volunteering and not have it look like I'm checking off boxes? I mean I can list some of the piano stuff separately (for example, hours of extraneous practicing with singers etc). But if I, say, start volunteering at the homeless shelter or somewhere brand new next week, does that look suspicious?
It seems like there's a fine line between "I'm taking this feedback from a failed cycle and applying it and improving by making service a more documentably integral part of my life" and "I'm improving just to get in, not because I actually care." Any advice on how to navigate that?

You navigate that by taking a year between cycles and applying with 18 months of volunteering on your application. And volunteer with the poor, not with concert singers who need someone to play the piano for them. Get out there in your community with the cold, hungry, homeless, illiterate, dirty, rejected, dejected, addicted, etc. They will be your patients someday so meet them and show that you want to help people who really need help.

 

[Amelia.]

You need to increase your list of schools. It's quite short.

 

[the shretiology]

You navigate that by taking a year between cycles and applying with 18 months of volunteering on your application. And volunteer with the poor, not with concert singers who need someone to play the piano for them. Get out there in your community with the cold, hungry, homeless, illiterate, dirty, rejected, dejected, addicted, etc. They will be your patients someday so meet them and show that you want to help people who really need help.

I agree - I don’t know much, but I think it would be helpful to get involved with organizations that reflect your values and goals as a future physician. These unique experiences can show who you are rather than you just talking about it. It’s also really easy to get involved. Most orgs always are short on volunteers in my experience.

On a separate note, potentially clinical employment could help. 250 hrs in the clinic is good but the more the better imo

 

[Prestige88]

Thanks for the advice! As much as I wanted to hear that I should reapply right away, I

On a separate note, potentially clinical employment could help. 250 hrs in the clinic is good but the more the better imo

I was thinking about this too, perhaps part-time along with another job to pay the bills, while continuing & growing the clinical/non-clinical volunteering. Is there a consensus on a "better" form of clinical work among EMT/scribing/hospital tech jobs/other stuff? Does the fact that I will have graduated change anything in that regard? Is most clinical employment (that has patient contact, that is) seen as equivalent by adcoms or are some better than others?

 

[the shretiology]

Thanks for the advice! As much as I wanted to hear that I should reapply right away, I


I was thinking about this too, perhaps part-time along with another job to pay the bills, while continuing & growing the clinical/non-clinical volunteering. Is there a consensus on a "better" form of clinical work among EMT/scribing/hospital tech jobs/other stuff? Does the fact that I will have graduated change anything in that regard? Is most clinical employment (that has patient contact, that is) seen as equivalent by adcoms or are some better than others?

That’s a better question for an adcom, however, it’s actually ironic because I was just talking to one of the MDs I work with (I’ve been a scribe for a very long time). He was saying that you really understand the medical decision making and what it is to be a physician as a scribe, and he literally said you wouldn’t get that as an ED tech. With that being said, it is one opinion and our scribes are responsible for A LOT. We always follow the doctors pretty much everywhere, so we see all - not every company or facility has this and experiences may differ.

I think in the end it may not be what an adcom thinks about your experience (scribing/CNA/ED tech) at face value, but what you describe you took from this experience.

 

[Veni vidi vicii]

If you don't have the cash to apply to at least 20 schools, take a year off, save money and apply in 2019.
You are going to need to get out of your comfort zone. Someone from a non-flagship school in Wisconsin is not a novelty in Michigan, Illinois or Missouri but might be in Philly or New York, or Louisiana. Give some schools outside of the Midwest some thought.

Getting turned down (not even waitlisted) at two schools does suggest that you need some work on interviewing. Try to set something up with someone who doesn't know you and and who is at least 50 years old. Try the parent of an acquaintance or someone like that who works in a professional capacity (not necessarily a doc ). Get comfortable having conversations about yourself and your interests with older adults. Learn how to describe your interests and research activities in a way that is engaging and easy for a layperson to understand. Learn to communicate clearly, concisely and with a minimum of filler. Learn when to stop talking and to let the interviewer ask a follow-up.

How do you feel about someone with a speech impediment? Have you personally experienced this during an interview? Should someone not even pursue medicine with a speech impediment?

 

[MedicalDoge]

Your stats are great! Much more than a "solid" applicant regarding metrics IMO. The glaring shortcomings in your app, as mentioned above, are the 0 hours of non-clinical volunteering and low shadowing numbers. For non-clinical gap year ideas, Americorps has been amazing for me. I know schools like Mayo and Geisel love that ish, and of course, it has been a life-changing experience for me. There are so many different Americorps projects you could partake in that you could really focus on a population/issue that you're interested in! Some projects include education in inner cities and reservations, environmental sustainability, and even healthcare related programs.

So my two gap year advice options would be: Americorps with some interspersed shadowing, or scribing with some side volunteering? Best of luck!

 

[LizzyM]

How do you feel about someone with a speech impediment? Have you personally experienced this during an interview? Should someone not even pursue medicine with a speech impediment?

I can't recall interviewing anyone with a speech impediment but I have had at least 2 medical students with speech impediments and both are now attending physicians.

Have you worked with a speech therapist to the point where you have achieved the all the improvement possible?

 

[DBC03]

How do you feel about someone with a speech impediment? Have you personally experienced this during an interview? Should someone not even pursue medicine with a speech impediment?

LizzyM already responded and I’m not an adcom, but I’m an older applicant with many friends who are already attendings. One friend works as an attending in a well respected hospital in NYC and has a minor speech impediment. So it can be overcome, but how it impacts an interview may depend on the interviewer.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

How do you feel about someone with a speech impediment? Have you personally experienced this during an interview? Should someone not even pursue medicine with a speech impediment?

Look up Perrin White, MD. He has a grand mal stutter. It didn't stop him.

 

[Veni vidi vicii]

I can't recall interviewing anyone with a speech impediment but I have had at least 2 medical students with speech impediments and both are now attending physicians.

Have you worked with a speech therapist to the point where you have achieved the all the improvement possible?

I'm not worried about myself. However, would the interviewer confuse the speech impediment with nervousness? Someone can stammer but be 100% calm and not nervous.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not worried about myself. However, would the interviewer confuse the speech impediment with nervousness? Someone can stammer but be 100% calm and not nervous.

I hope we can tell the difference. Also, some applicants will discuss the challenges faced as a person with a speech impediment, the efforts to overcome/compensate, coping skills, etc in the PS or secondary so that the interviewer is not caught unaware by the impediment.

 

[Prestige88]

You navigate that by taking a year between cycles and applying with 18 months of volunteering on your application.

As I've been looking more intensely at volunteer opportunities, a thought came to mind.
Since this is a lighter semester for me, if between now and June I'm able to get, say, 100 non-clinical volunteer hours, 50 more clinical hours, and some more shadowing in, and work like crazy on essays/interview skills, would it make sense to apply the next cycle? (those are fairly conservative hour estimates for what I'm thinking, plus they would theoretically increase further post-graduation) Or is longevity and development time key to reapplying successfully? Obviously with a better/longer school list and including DOs.
I'll be honest, I want to apply and get in as soon as I can. I hate being in limbo, and 2 gap years doesn't sound fun at all. But I'll wait if that's what it takes to be competitive/have the best shot.

 

[LizzyM]

As I've been looking more intensely at volunteer opportunities, a thought came to mind.
Since this is a lighter semester for me, if between now and June I'm able to get, say, 100 non-clinical volunteer hours, 50 more clinical hours, and some more shadowing in, and work like crazy on essays/interview skills, would it make sense to apply the next cycle? (those are fairly conservative hour estimates for what I'm thinking, plus they would theoretically increase further post-graduation) Or is longevity and development time key to reapplying successfully? Obviously with a better/longer school list and including DOs.
I'll be honest, I want to apply and get in as soon as I can. I hate being in limbo, and 2 gap years doesn't sound fun at all. But I'll wait if that's what it takes to be competitive/have the best shot.

Beginning in February and applying in June makes it look like last minute box checking rather than a long-term lifestyle of community service. To have the best shot, wait out a cycle between applications.

 

[Prestige88]

Beginning in February and applying in June makes it look like last minute box checking rather than a long-term lifestyle of community service. To have the best shot, wait out a cycle between applications.

I'm not sure if I'm just asking the same question again (sorry if I am), but this has made me think:

I've been going with this plan for the past few months & started non-clinical volunteering (very eye-opening and pushing me significantly out of my comfort zone, which is good but besides the point). Recently, however, I had a call with an admissions recruiter from one of the pre-II rejection schools who looked at my app and told me I passed the "adcom screen" and just didn't end up with an invite*. On paper, she didn't see why I shouldn't apply again this cycle if I updated and fixed some boring activity descriptions. Would it be wise to apply this cycle to that school (leaving out the name for anonymity) as well as some schools I didn't apply to last time? Or should I stick with the original plan and wait until next cycle? I'd love to have a chance at starting my dream career a year earlier. But I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot by being overeager. Is there a real downside to reapplying with a short "alternative" list now and if that doesn't work, applying next cycle to a bigger list where only 1 or 2 would be a 3rd app?

*This sounds doubtful to me - is this a reality? Other threads seem to indicate that there's always a reason there wasn't an invite, not bad luck.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not sure if I'm just asking the same question again (sorry if I am), but this has made me think:

I've been going with this plan for the past few months & started non-clinical volunteering (very eye-opening and pushing me significantly out of my comfort zone, which is good but besides the point). Recently, however, I had a call with an admissions recruiter from one of the pre-II rejection schools who looked at my app and told me I passed the "adcom screen" and just didn't end up with an invite*. On paper, she didn't see why I shouldn't apply again this cycle if I updated and fixed some boring activity descriptions. Would it be wise to apply this cycle to that school (leaving out the name for anonymity) as well as some schools I didn't apply to last time? Or should I stick with the original plan and wait until next cycle? I'd love to have a chance at starting my dream career a year earlier. But I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot by being overeager. Is there a real downside to reapplying with a short "alternative" list now and if that doesn't work, applying next cycle to a bigger list where only 1 or 2 would be a 3rd app?

*This sounds doubtful to me - is this a reality? Other threads seem to indicate that there's always a reason there wasn't an invite, not bad luck.

Yes, sometimes it can be bad luck. When a school can only interview 15% of all applicants due to lack of time, space and interviewers, but it looks like 33% deserve to be interviewed, some hard choices have to be made. That is one good reason for applying to many schools and not applying too top heavy.

 

[Prestige88]

Yes, sometimes it can be bad luck. When a school can only interview 15% of all applicants due to lack of time, space and interviewers, but it looks like 33% deserve to be interviewed, some hard choices have to be made. That is one good reason for applying to many schools and not applying too top heavy.

Interesting. So does this support charging ahead with the short/alternative list this cycle in the hope of being on the better side of the "hard choices" or staying patient for the big list next time?

 

[LizzyM]

Interesting. So does this support charging ahead with the short/alternative list this cycle in the hope of being on the better side of the "hard choices" or staying patient for the big list next time?

I never recommend applying with a short list and a plan to reapply a year later if need be. Go all in or sit out a cycle.

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

I'm not sure if I'm just asking the same question again (sorry if I am), but this has made me think:

I've been going with this plan for the past few months & started non-clinical volunteering (very eye-opening and pushing me significantly out of my comfort zone, which is good but besides the point). Recently, however, I had a call with an admissions recruiter from one of the pre-II rejection schools who looked at my app and told me I passed the "adcom screen" and just didn't end up with an invite*. On paper, she didn't see why I shouldn't apply again this cycle if I updated and fixed some boring activity descriptions. Would it be wise to apply this cycle to that school (leaving out the name for anonymity) as well as some schools I didn't apply to last time? Or should I stick with the original plan and wait until next cycle? I'd love to have a chance at starting my dream career a year earlier. But I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot by being overeager. Is there a real downside to reapplying with a short "alternative" list now and if that doesn't work, applying next cycle to a bigger list where only 1 or 2 would be a 3rd app?

*This sounds doubtful to me - is this a reality? Other threads seem to indicate that there's always a reason there wasn't an invite, not bad luck.

Agree with the advice LizzyM gave about going all in or sit out the cycle. just wanted to say that I have a friend (med student at Mayo) who got in as a reapplicant here. The first time he was rejected pre-II. so it's definitely possible to get in if you reapply to a school you applied to last cycle