What was it like when YOU came out?

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jonwill

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This kind of builds off of the other thread in the forum. Podiatry has no doubt come a long way as a profession. This thread is for the podiatrists that have been out for a while. What were conditions like when YOU came out? What were hospital privileges like, surgical privileges, interactions with other docs, job opportunies, contracts, difficulties, sucesses, etc? This thread serves to help the younger generation understand how far things really have come and to hopefully instill some gratitude for those who have come before us. So, "seasoned" podiatrists, post if you dare!

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This kind of builds off of the other thread in the forum. Podiatry has no doubt come a long way as a profession. This thread is for the podiatrists that have been out for a while. What were conditions like when YOU came out? What were hospital privileges like, surgical privileges, interactions with other docs, job opportunies, contracts, difficulties, sucesses, etc? This thread serves to help the younger generation understand how far things really have come and to hopefully instill some gratitude for those who have come before us. So, "seasoned" podiatrists, post if you dare!


I started in 1985. I was lucky and scored a residency program (only 50% in my class of 167 did). In addition I was accepted at a program that was a high volume, full scope surgical program and got the only second year spot. I was convinced that I would be accepted as a peer since in residency I did everything the MDs did and was sought after by them to do their central lines, assist in the OR, and was the only ACLS trained doc in one hospital so I responded to all of the codes. When I finished and opened a practice ( In those days it was either open or buy a practice) the discrimination started. I opened 4 hospitals for Podiatrists but had to fight lonely stressful battles when others worked to make money. Once I did the work many of my "peers" then joined the staff only to sell me out since my battles pretty much blew referral sources. However, like today, my training paid off and my practice took off. The orthopod who resisted the most sent his wife to me for a subtalar joint fusion. The profession has grown exponentially and I have benefited by being involved at the national level. I have lectured and done surgery throughout the world and to this day (although I still hate the politics) I am grateful for what the profession has given to me.

For your generation it is imperative to understand what your forefathers had to do to allow you to do what you do. I see a leadership void in the profession currently. We have great young people who have stepped up but we need more. I routinely have introduced new young people to the national organizations. We need you guys and gals to make us proud and carry the ball into the endzone. Try to remember those who have worked hard to help you succeed and not generalize that the "old" guys are holding you back. Some of us still have game.
 
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podfather could you elaborate on the battles & discrimination you encountered? also, are the setback you encountered in the past still present? or do you see any obstacles coming up that will affect new podiatrist fresh out of (or in) residency?

great thread jonwill
great post podfather
 
podfather could you elaborate on the battles & discrimination you encountered? also, are the setback you encountered in the past still present? or do you see any obstacles coming up that will affect new podiatrist fresh out of (or in) residency?

great thread jonwill
great post podfather

The discrimination I described was common in the 80s and 90s. Basically hospitals would deny admitting privileges and surgical procedures. Some would try to exclude you from doing any surgery or not permit DPMs from doing anything but forefoot surgery. Credentialing was extremely unfair where an orthopedists who never did a foot surgery would be given full privileges and a DPM may have to show 30 op reports for each procedure requested. They would deny and your appeals may take years. Meetings would be cancelled and rescheduled months later. Once you won that was just for the right to do surgery and then the fight for delineation of privileges started. Some hospitals had bylaw issues and those changes always took several meetings and up to a year (even if they weren't fighting you).
Today those kind of battles have been won. Some hospitals still deny ankle/rearfoot privileges but usually there are several others in town and surgery centers who will credential you fairly. H&Ps and ex-fix application have been problematic for some recently.
At my hospital, we have full privileges and do our own H&Ps. However we stopped taking ER call because all other doctors were paid a call stipend to make up for the uninsured but DPMs were excluded. In addition it was common for those with insurance to be referred to orthopedics (even when we were on call) and those without coverage to us. Overall, we are treated fairly well. As I mentioned I was recently elected vice-chairman of the department of surgery and we have a residency program. Just 3 miles a way there is another hospital where DPMs can not do H&Ps, are not permitted to apply ex-fix on the leg, and can not do ankle fractures/fusions. It's hit and miss. Compared to when I started we are light years ahead of where we started.
 
My post will have some parallels to podfather. I also graduated around the same time as podfather, and was fortunate enough to obtain a residency program that also included a second year that was not offered to all the first year residents. There were more first year positions than second year positions, and that alone created significant tension among some of the residents. It didn't always create a very cohesive group and unfortunatley brought out the "worst" in a few of the residents.

Fortunately, it was a very podiatry friendly hospital, and as a result we had the ability to basically train with general surgeons, vascular surgeons, plastic surgeons, rotate through the ER, etc. Since it was in a major city, we were exposed to significant trauma and basically you were able to learn as much or little as you wanted. Unfortunately, learning was really "on your own" because I don't feel that there were many strong surgeons on staff to teach. I believe that most of what I learned and my colleagues learned was from trial and error and volume, as unfortunate as that sounds.

My training is no where near the quality that is available today. I was put in a lot of situations where I basically had to figure out what to do, so I simply did it with the help of my fellow residents. And quite a few of us turned out to be pretty decent surgeons.

I often get upset with some of the cockiness I encounter when interviewing or speaking with some of today's graduates, when they refer to some of the "older" docs with "inferior" training. Similar to podfather, approximately 47% of my class were fortunate enough to obtain residencies. The rest did "preceptorships", joined the service (which counted as a residency) or went into private practice. I can tell you that some of my classmates that were brilliant, did NOT obtain a residency. Some of those people today would probably be competing for top residency positions.

So naturally it upsets me when the younger generation finds fault with the older generation's "inferior training", when in fact many brilliant docs simply were shut out of the opportunity to obtain a residency. Some were simply unlucky.

Additionally, some docs that may not have performed the most prestigious programs are also the same docs that may have opened up privileges in hospitals that now have 3 year residency programs!!!

After my residency, I was offered an excellent position as an associate with a lot of promises for partnership, etc.,etc. After 3 years, I got royally screwed and went out on my own. I practice honestly and ethically and as corny as it sounds, to this day I have never taken an x-ray, made an orthoses or performed a surgery on a patient that I wouldn't have performed on a family member.

When I first obtained privileges at most hospitals, DPM's were treated decent, but not as equals. After performing a lot of surgery at a particular hospital and admitting a decent amount of patients, I finally also requested ER privileges/rotation for foot/ankle trauma. Naturally, they thought I was crazy and the orthopods went nuts. So I politely did what every hospital understands most......I hit them in their pocketbook. I told them if I did not get the privileges, I would bring ALL my surgeries, admissions, MRI referrals, lab referrals, etc., to a competing hospital.

Needless to say, I obtained ER privileges.

I then obtained surgical privileges at another local hospital, and as I've told before on this site, my privilege sheet stated; nail care, warts, skin lesions, hammertoe repair and "simple" bunion repair. I then typed up a three page list of "additional" procedures including a lot of rearfoot procedures, the use of internal fixation, ORIF, etc.

The chief of podiatry called me in a panic asking me "not to make waves" and the chief of orthopedics told me "no way". I ignored the podiatrist but asked to meet with the chief of orthopedics. I asked him why "no way" and he said DPM's don't do that stuff. I asked if HE had privileges to perform the procedures I requested and he said "of course". I handed him my surgical log and showed him proof that I was able to perform everything I requested. I then asked him the last time he performed ANY of the foot/ankle cases he had privileges for at that hospital.

I went to administration at that hospital with the same info, and threatened a lawsuit. I was granted ALL privileges, as long as I was observed by the chief of orthopedics or podiatry first for each case. Ironically, when I was being observed by the chief of podiatry, he didn't even know what he was watching!!!

Since that time, a lot of young studs have joined the staff and now their privileges are endless and the orthopods leave them alone.

I believe more young guys/gals need to get involved. I was very active with the APMA on a local level and I was involved with various ACFAS committees and I was involved with the ABPS as an examiner and beyond.

In the "older" days, I'm sure podfather will remember, there was a select group of about 10-12 doctors that "owned" the lecture circuit. They lectured at Hershey (which used to be the prestigious seminar) and across the country. It was always the same 10-12 guys. Many of them are still around and many of them still lecture. They are/were good doctors, but now the profession has moved on and it's great to see the younger doctors moving forward, performing research and gaining parity with "mainstream" medicine. Doctors like David Armstrong, John Steinberg, etc., have been great for our profession because they have aligned with major institutions have spread the name of podiatry throughout the world.

The older generation like Lowell Scott Weil Sr. also spread our profession internationally, and we need the younger docs to not only move forward but to remember their roots. Our profession is different than orthopedics, and I hope that the new well trained surgeons keep in mind that despite their excellent training, not all patients require surgical intervention. And sometimes you are a better doctor if you can keep your patient OUT of the O.R.
 
Ironically, the ER privileges that I fought so hard to obtain, I also was happy to relinquish. Podfather is 100% correct. Once the orthopods found out I did have ER privileges, they were happy to "dump" all the uninsured on my service.

I also did find out that to entice busy orthopedic practices to their ER's for much needed coverage, they were reimbursed for their "on call" time.

I don't believe I ever actually received ONE PENNEY for any case I ever treated from the ER. They were great learning experiences for the residents and for me, and I'm the only DPM at the hospital that ever treated gunshot wounds, but I also have bills to pay.

So I did voluntarily give up my ER privileges. My ego no longer needs the stroking.
 
Awesome posts Podfather and PADPM. And thanks for starting this thread jonwill. I don't think the young'uns in this forum and in the profession quite know what these "seasoned" podiatrists had to go through in order for podiatry to be where it is today.
 
Thanks. But believe me, the "guys" before me went through a lot more and were the true pioneers. I simply fought to build upon the foundation a lot of these "old" guys really created.

Most of the older DPM's never had ANY formal training and were truly seen as chiropodists. These guys had a true uphill battle and given their lack of training, it's really incredible what they accomplished.

And remember, they had to make many diagnoses and provide treatments based on knowledge, "raw skills" and intuition, because they didn't have the technology of computers, MRI's, diagnostic ultrasound, modern internal fixation, etc.

I still have a beautiful set of osteotomes that an older DPM gave me when he retired. He used these in surgery to perform osteotomies when power equipment wasn't readily available or when a hospital only had one set and it was "reserved" for the orthopods. I keep them as a reminder and as an appreciation of the skills this doctor had when he used them.
 
Thanks. But believe me, the "guys" before me went through a lot more and were the true pioneers. I simply fought to build upon the foundation a lot of these "old" guys really created.

Most of the older DPM's never had ANY formal training and were truly seen as chiropodists. These guys had a true uphill battle and given their lack of training, it's really incredible what they accomplished.

And remember, they had to make many diagnoses and provide treatments based on knowledge, "raw skills" and intuition, because they didn't have the technology of computers, MRI's, diagnostic ultrasound, modern internal fixation, etc.

I still have a beautiful set of osteotomes that an older DPM gave me when he retired. He used these in surgery to perform osteotomies when power equipment wasn't readily available or when a hospital only had one set and it was "reserved" for the orthopods. I keep them as a reminder and as an appreciation of the skills this doctor had when he used them.

I agree. Although many in my generation have worked hard to advance the profession, we had those before us who did the same. I knew A DPM who was arrested for practicing medicine without a license for writing a prescription for neosporin-G cream. I believe it was in the 60s. Hard to believe. I always wanted to meet the individual who after debriding a fifth toe corn over and over snapped, read a book, and (probably in an office with the shades drawn) did the first DPM arthroplasty. Now that took guts but was where the fish walked onto shore. Newbies it's your turn!
 
I was not so lucky to get a residency. Went through the whole CASPR CRIP nightmare many times. This whole process is a disaster! I feel sorry for the students who will be graduating with no hope of post graduate training. I can totally empathize with them.
It's nice to learn that some of my fellow colleagues were lucky enough to obtain a surgical residency and use the valuable education that so many of us desperately want!
I can sit here and develop research ideas and new concepts for ground breaking advancement in my field yet it's of no use to anyone since I don't have surgical residency training or privilages anywhere. What a shame!
 
Podpal,

What year did you graduate?

I do agree that it is a shame that you were not able to have the opportunity to obtain a residency, which should be available to ALL podiatric graduates.

But I do NOT agree that just because you don't have a residency, you can't develop ideas or ground breaking concepts that won't be useful to anyone. On the contrary, there are many great ideas that can be developed that do not involve surgery, or even those that DO involve surgery but aren't "invented" by surgeons. Your ideas can certainly be implemented by surgeons or brought to fruition working in conjunction with surgeons.

Some of the best and brightest DPM's I know have never stepped in the O.R., because in their days they were unable to obtain a residency. If they did, I'm sure that they would be leaders in that field.
 
Hopefully I will be afforded an opportunity for residency training. My goal is to become board certified and do research in our field. :xf:
 
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Good luck. If you haven't already, maybe you should contact some of the programs that are research oriented and attempt to meet with the program director to discuss your unique case/concerns.
 
Thanks! Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. I've applied to about 50 residency programs so far with no luck. I would like to learn how to perform forefoot surgery primarily. Ultimately I want to enter a practice with diabetic patients, and do diabetic foot care, wound care, and provide both biomechanic and surgical options. I have experience in ID and would relish an opportunity to eventually work with an ID MD or team to prevent amputation in patients with complex infected wounds. I also like challenging vascular cases and am excited about new advances in this field, such as Normatec.
If you know of an interested program director, please let them know that I do nice work and I can sew. I've had outstanding plastic results, on arms. Also, I've been known to get IV access when no one else seems able to.
Research doesn't have to happen in a lab, it can happen in hospitals and offices. Having a busy practice with complex patient profiles affords wonderful opportunities for research. Medicine shouldn't be cookbook, but rather progressive.
 
podpal,

I understand and respect your anonymity, but is there anyway you can provide me with some "generic" information so I can have a clearer understanding of your background. I assure you that the information you provide will not reveal your identity.

Can you let me know approximately when you graduated, and if you were in the top 1/3, middle 1/3 or bottom 1/3 of your class.

Additionally, do you have any honest clue as to why you didn't match with any of the large amount of programs that you applied to in the past?

During your interviews did you ever mention the fact that you would eventually like to limit your surgery to "forefoot" surgery? When interviewing, you may NOT want to over emphasize how much you DON'T want to perform surgery, but may want to emphasize that you'd like to incorporate research with your surgical training.

I personally despise the term "forefoot" surgery. I have no problem with the terms foot surgery or reconstructive rearfoot surgery, etc., but there is a misnomer among many in our profession that the ABPS has a "forefoot" certification, when in reality there is not. There is certification in FOOT surgery and reconstructive rearfoot and ankle surgery. Prior to that distinction, there was a "foot & ankle" certification.

Anyway, the last time I looked, the FOOT contains a forefoot/midfoot/rearfoot. Additionally, if you are interested in working with diabetic patients, providing wound care and working with infectious disease specialists, I hope you understand that infections and wounds don't limit themselves to only the forefoot, and often require surgical intervention in other portions of the ENTIRE foot!!

Therefore, please don't place restrictions on yourself. You will possibly run into enough roadblocks in your career and/or people that will attempt to limit your scope of practice, so don't place limitations on yourself IF you have the training and ability.

Now think positive, don't set limitations on yourself this early in the game and let some residency director know how you are going to contribute to the success of his/her program with the knowledge you possess, the desire you have to learn and the skills you want to obtain, while also letting the director know that eventually you would like to use all this knowledge to advance the profession with research.
 
I graduated back in the 90s and there were no positions to be had. I rotated through programs that had heavy rearfoot surgery, one a top program in the USA. I really liked them, they really liked me but I was anxious to begin practice and wanted to try for 2 year programs, even though I didn't rotate through many.
I graduated in the top of my class, my clinicals were impeccable. I've been in healthcare for over 25 years.
I live in an area that disallows ankle procedures and I intend to live in this area for many more years, minus a chance to do residency training. Many of the RF procedures I was in on were ankle cases. I'm not opposed to doing some RF cases, but come on, in a general practice in a small population how many will I see, realistically. One of my friends completed a 3 yr high intensity surgical program. She did 1 RF case in more than a decade. Outside of large cities the patient population isn't there.
I want to learn the bread and butter of the field. I have in the past done digital amps, TMA's, hammertoe surgeries, and much more soft tissue work. I've assisted on many ankle cases and other ortho cases and while interesting they're nothing I am going to do in practice.
Sorry if I offended you by saying FF, it was meant to distinguish it from heavy reconstructive RF. I have no intention of ever doing heavy reconstructive RF as I do not live in a location that has substantial cases. The practice I'd liketo eventually be a part of does a tiny bit of surgery, mostly digits and bunions, few cases a month.
The surgical requirements for pm&s 24 programs have no RF cases. I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate being in on a few cases, but it's not what I would plan to do in practice, and not practical for me or my patient population.
I would eventually like to try for board certification from ABPOPPM. I like multiple aspects of medicine and have worked in far more medicine oriented arenas than podiatry offers. I really enjoy the medicine aspect of podiatry, particularly challenging patients with complex medical profiles. I do like diabetic foot care and from a medicine perspective I like heme/onc, ID, pain management, endocrinology, vascular, etc.
 
My opinion is that todays grads and residents are light years ahead of even most of their attendings.

Maybe not in podiatric surgery, but certainly in medicine which is where we as a profession are heading today. It's amazing what kind of medically complicated cases pod residents are managing on a daily basis in their rotations. Basically unheard of even 10 yrs ago.

Todays pods are being mentored by MDs as much if not more so than by DPMs who many times can be nothing more than negative baggage on their training. An embarassing burden to be explained away to other MD attendings and residents on out of service rotations.

While many pods seemingly seek to abuse and misuse the younger generation through the training process, many MDs are there to actually be role models and fill the leadership gaps that may exist in a program and in the profession in general.

The grumpy mean pods will be joked about in later years as the modern residents recall learning from professional acting MDs rather than abusive DPMs many of which had behavioral issues, who simply let the resident dictate his op reports and completely was clueless as how to medically manage even the most basic patients. But has the attitude that they are a "master surgeon..." What can be said about that? Should those "pod master surgeons" be respected for their hand skills and self concept alone? I mean even folks with rudimentary training in surgery can be great after 20 years of doing the same procedures over and over and over and over again.

I guess maybe the truth is, many newer well trained folks just don't have the same connection to the profession and have had a vastly different education experience. Maybe these same individuals have little connection to the profession that they view as abusive and backwards in many ways. A profession that doesn't even care enough to ensure that all pods are able to treat the same deformities and dysfunctions. A profession that is stratified by which part of the foot you can treat. I mean a profession that finds it completely acceptable for members to be left behind and rationalize it on the basis of that's what those people deserved. Where does that leave the profession and should anyone have loyalty to a profession that knows no loyalties to its own members?

I know that many will whine about my post, but having spoken with many residents, this is my impression.
 
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My opinion is that todays grads and residents are light years ahead of even most of their attendings.

Maybe not in podiatric surgery, but certainly in medicine which is where we as a profession are heading today. It's amazing what kind of medically complicated cases pod residents are managing on a daily basis in their rotations. Basically unheard of even 10 yrs ago.

Todays pods are being mentored by MDs as much if not more so than by DPMs who many times can be nothing more than negative baggage on their training. An embarassing burden to be explained away to other MD attendings and residents on out of service rotations.

While many pods seemingly seek to abuse and misuse the younger generation through the training process, many MDs are there to actually be role models and fill the leadership gaps that may exist in a program and in the profession in general.

The grumpy mean pods will be joked about in later years as the modern residents recall learning from professional acting MDs rather than abusive DPMs many of which had behavioral issues, who simply let the resident dictate his op reports and completely was clueless as how to medically manage even the most basic patients. But has the attitude that they are a "master surgeon..." What can be said about that? Should those "pod master surgeons" be respected for their hand skills and self concept alone? I mean even folks with rudimentary training in surgery can be great after 20 years of doing the same procedures over and over and over and over again.

I guess maybe the truth is, many newer well trained folks just don't have the same connection to the profession and have had a vastly different education experience. Maybe these same individuals have little connection to the profession that they view as abusive and backwards in many ways. A profession that doesn't even care enough to ensure that all pods are able to treat the same deformities and dysfunctions. A profession that is stratified by which part of the foot you can treat. I mean a profession that finds it completely acceptable for members to be left behind and rationalize it on the basis of that's what those people deserved. Where does that leave the profession and should anyone have loyalty to a profession that knows no loyalties to its own members?

I know that many will whine about my post, but having spoken with many residents, this is my impression.


Fortunately not all pod attendings are as Whiskers states, however there are those out there and from discussions with other residents across the country it certainly seems to be the trend that the MD attendings that we rotate with for gen surg, medicine, ortho, infx disease... are more concerned with ego building and positive reinforcement and less degratory (sp?).

Some people may relate this to the "everyone must win a trophy award" in little league. I think it comes from years of the medicine profession studying effective means of teaching.

Consider this senario: Intern on-call calls attending to update on pt status for need to elevate level of care. Pt had N-STEMI and needs to be transferred to cardiac tele as well as be started on ASA and beta-blocker. Upon receipt of call at approx midnight, attending is unapologetically irritated by phone call and yells at resident and intern.

So, if this happens to you... the next time you have a pt with the same attending and you need to ask a question or are concerned about the patient are you going to want to call the attending? Are you going to wait until the last minute before calling? Will you let the pt crash before calling the attending?

IMO - this is why and how pt decompensate in the hospital, because the resident/intern does not want to call the irrate attending.

If on the other hand the attending is always even tempored the interns do not hesitate to call and the pt probably receives better care.

I think the same thing happens with nurses on the floor - they think twice before calling the attending that yelled at them over the phone the last night.

Since I was the intern not too long ago, when the new interns or second years or nurses call for questions, orders... I try to make myself available and talk them thru whatever issue. I would rather get 10 extra phone calls or pages than have someone be afraid to call/page me when the pt is still stable when intervention is less hectic, and wait until it is a true emergency.

Also, since the new crop of podiatrists are being trained more and more integrated with MDs hopefully we will begin to change the training process of podiatry and make it less of a hazing process.
 
Since Whiskers has never revealed his/her status, I don't know when his/her experience occurred.

In the program(s) I've been involved with, that type of behavior from attendings was simply never tolerated, and if the residents came to me or any residency director at the time with a grievance, the attending lost the privilege to have residents work with him/her. Yes, the PRIVILEGE of having residents working with him/her.

Although residency is a learning process, it also often takes the burden off the attending when it comes to paper work and footwork. There are/were always attendings that offered nothing to the program, yet used the residents for their knowledge and as worker bees. Once again, in the programs that I was associated with, that simply not tolerated.

An attending wasn't expected to bring a "tough" case to the hospital because he/she didn't have the capability to perform the surgery and expected a well trained resident to get him/her through the case. That was carefully monitored by our senior residents.

I believe the scenario that Whiskers brings up is really the exception and not the rule. The attendings and residency directors I've been exposed to are not "grumpy" nor are they your enemy. On the contrary. Most I know have opened their offices and have been more than generous with their time and resources with the residents and treat the residents with tremendous respect and treat them like colleagues.

I believe that today's residents are absolutely better trained than the previous docs, including me. But there's a lot to say for experience. There's a lot more to the art of practice than the mechanics of surgery. Integrating the knowledge from years of experience is invaluable, and a smart resident will understand that fact, and not resent that his/her training may be better. 10, 15, 20 years of experience can not be discounted, it can not be taught.

We all have to have open minds, but we all have to remember that every profession will have it's share of a-holes, but hopefully they will be the exceptions and not the rule. And I sincerely believe that Whiskers has brought up the exceptions, because the a-holes he describes certainly wouldn't be tolerated at any of the hospitals or programs I've ever attended.
 
Since Whiskers has never revealed his/her status, I don't know when his/her experience occurred.

In the program(s) I've been involved with, that type of behavior from attendings was simply never tolerated, and if the residents came to me or any residency director at the time with a grievance, the attending lost the privilege to have residents work with him/her. Yes, the PRIVILEGE of having residents working with him/her.

Although residency is a learning process, it also often takes the burden off the attending when it comes to paper work and footwork. There are/were always attendings that offered nothing to the program, yet used the residents for their knowledge and as worker bees. Once again, in the programs that I was associated with, that simply not tolerated.

An attending wasn't expected to bring a "tough" case to the hospital because he/she didn't have the capability to perform the surgery and expected a well trained resident to get him/her through the case. That was carefully monitored by our senior residents.

I believe the scenario that Whiskers brings up is really the exception and not the rule. The attendings and residency directors I've been exposed to are not "grumpy" nor are they your enemy. On the contrary. Most I know have opened their offices and have been more than generous with their time and resources with the residents and treat the residents with tremendous respect and treat them like colleagues.

I believe that today's residents are absolutely better trained than the previous docs, including me. But there's a lot to say for experience. There's a lot more to the art of practice than the mechanics of surgery. Integrating the knowledge from years of experience is invaluable, and a smart resident will understand that fact, and not resent that his/her training may be better. 10, 15, 20 years of experience can not be discounted, it can not be taught.

We all have to have open minds, but we all have to remember that every profession will have it's share of a-holes, but hopefully they will be the exceptions and not the rule. And I sincerely believe that Whiskers has brought up the exceptions, because the a-holes he describes certainly wouldn't be tolerated at any of the hospitals or programs I've ever attended.

Whiskers, although the situation you describe has and does exists in a few select programs, what you describe is rare at best. For the record, I wish my residents arrived "light years" ahead of me. In spite of the so called mergers of many of the schools with DO and MD counterparts, many of my residents arrived poorly prepared medically and surgically. We spend on some residents considerable remedial time on material that was a given for incoming residents in the past. In the last 5 years I have had 3 residents who had never rotated in a hospital in podiatric medical school (hard to believe but true). When they graduate from residency training, it is the goal of any good director to want their graduates to the best prepared they can be and to plant those seeds to continue to grow the profession. Without coming off egotistical some of us "grumpy" old geezers through the use of memory aids, ensure, and depends diapers have stayed current and actually know medicine.

When needed, we are at times hard on residents but supportive/reassuring at other times. Many times we counsel them on a variety of personal and professional matters. I often feel like a surrogate parent and I consider these future leaders part of a family. Our MD/DO faculty are no better or worse than our DPM faculty. Coddling attendings are needed but not all of the time. Residents need to know when they are falling behind, slacking, or behaving badly. That is part of my job and although not pleasant is for their benefit. We help our graduates find top jobs and I receive emails on a weekly basis from graduates asking advice on a case and sometimes personal issues. I personally have helped my graduates who have wanted to become involved, obtain positions in state and national APMA activities, ACFAS, ABPS, and ACFOAM. My committee has 2 senior (you would call them grumpy), 3 individuals out 5-10 years (semi-grumpy?), and 2 recent graduates. We also include the chief resident.

Finally, most of our faculty do not need residents. In fact they slow us down, cost us money, and ethically it can tough to surpervise a resident as they make a error that creates a less than optimal outcome on a case that you on most days could have done better. Meetings, paperwork, constant change form the CPME, political issues, the occasional pathological resident, the rare abusive attending, the addicted resident, and academic preparation are not easy. But we do it for the love of teaching, seeing someone blossum into a great surgeon, and for the profession. Those us who had fought so hard in our 20s,30s, 40s, and today for hospital access, enhanced scope, against discrimination, and have given countless hours at the state and national level want our graduates to build on our work not to make it seem like a waste of time.

You can call me grumpy, I would prefer you would just say thank you. It would interesting to hear what you have done for the profession..............
 
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Our MD/DO faculty are no better or worse than our DPM faculty. Coddling attendings are needed but not all of the time. Residents need to know when they are falling behind, slacking, or behaving badly. That is part of my job and although not pleasant is for their benefit.

I think you are missing the point about the coddling. And eventhough you and PADPM are 2 of the few attendings that post on here, none of us have ever had the privilege to work with you so we can't be talking about you or your programs.

I can't be sure what Whiskers meant, but for me, I do not think that the MD attendings are coddling, they are just not as deprecating as the pod attendings - in general. There are always exceptions to this rule. They are also more trusting of residents in general.
 
Our MD/DO faculty are no better or worse than our DPM faculty. Coddling attendings are needed but not all of the time. Residents need to know when they are falling behind, slacking, or behaving badly. That is part of my job and although not pleasant is for their benefit.

I think you are missing the point about the coddling. And eventhough you and PADPM are 2 of the few attendings that post on here, none of us have ever had the privilege to work with you so we can't be talking about you or your programs.

I can't be sure what Whiskers meant, but for me, I do not think that the MD attendings are coddling, they are just not as deprecating as the pod attendings - in general. There are always exceptions to this rule. They are also more trusting of residents in general.

The coddling sometimes goes for DPM/MD/DO attendings. At our institution all of our faculty of any degree have good and bad approaches to education. The one advantage that SOME MDs have is they may have been exposed to actual educational training where only a few DPMs have. We bring in speakers and send faculty to various courses ( I attended the orthopedic educators course years ago and routinely attend education process workshops). I will not give in on the light years comment and will say the program whiskers describes is rare today.
 
Every program and director will have a unique approach. When I trained, I was exposed to attendings who had temper tantrums and threw instruments at residents.

I was also exposed to general surgeons who belittled residents whenever he had the opportunity. He would literally hit your hand with an instrument if your retractor placement was wrong or embarass you and throw you out of the O.R. for asking for a light adjustment if HE didn't request it first.

I vowed that I would never treat residents that way, so I became a little "soft", or at least decided to treat residents with some level of respect. However, that's not to say that I didn't have a lot of demands and expectations from the residents. I never tolerated residents that are/were lazy, incompetent or attempted to take short cuts.

For a few years there was an "epidemic" regarding residents that felt their job was to walk into the O.R., perform/assist on a surgery and that was the end of their responsibility. They had an attitude that they were the kings/queens of the O.R. And they kept 8-4 hours. This was a time when I was not the director, and I invited the residents to come to my office and visit to see the patient pre-operatively to understand the "planning" process and decision making that goes into scheduling a surgical procedure. I also invited these residents to my office to see the post operative care, since the hospital did not have a clinic, and I did not believe that they had enough exposure to what the surgeries they performed looked like following the procedures. However, they kept making excuses that "they had to go to the gym", "they had hair cut appointments", "they were going to an early dinner", etc. (this wasn't just me but a lot of attendings). It should also be noted that when the residents were in my office, they weren't used as free employees. My staff or myself did ALL the work. The resident was not used to remove casts, dressings, sutures, etc. That was performed by myself or my staff.

The resident was simply required to observe, and if it wsa dinner time or lunch time, a meal was always waiting.

I got so fed up with this "attitude" of not showing up, but always showing up JUST to do the surgery, I wouldn't let them scrub on my cases. The other attendings that were the best and brightest took a similar stand, and eventually the only attendings that let them "scrub" were the incompetent guys that NEEDED the residents.

Finally, the program turned around and that attitude wore off. Now we let the residents know that this isn't a 9-5 "job" and going above and beyond is expected. I don't "coddle" the residents, but I do listen to their concerns, but professional and personal. Hopefully, I have earned their respect and confidence and they have earned mine.

Many of the MD's have gone through a more rigorous "residency" training with on-call, and multi-year training than a lot of current podiatric residency directors, so that MAY be why some have a more "sympathetic/coddling" attitude. Many of them have "been there/done that".

Similar to raising a child, sometimes residents must be treated with "tough love", but as per podfather, nothing is as rewarding as receiving a call years later from an appeciative former resident asking for advice, or just to say "hello" to tell you about his/her success.
 
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Every program and director will have a unique approach. When I trained, I was exposed to attendings who had temper tantrums and through instruments at residents.

I was also exposed to general surgeons who belittled residents whenever he had the opportunity. He would literally hit your hand with an instrument if your retractor placement was wrong or embarass you and throw you out of the O.R. for asking for a light adjustment if HE didn't request it first.

I am just a pre-pod so this is not from first hand experience but I would like to share what my brother, an MD, told me when he was in medical school.

What PADPM describes above is exactly the reason why my brother was turned off by surgery. He was all for surgery when he entered medical school. But once clinicals came and he rotated through gen. surg...he was disgusted by what he saw. According to him, surgery is very militaristic and the surgeons he met were "animals". He told me that, "The attendings yell at the residents. The residents then yell at the interns. The interns would then yell at the students. It is a viscious cycle." He even shared a story of when he was in the OR. One of the residents assisting in surgery could not see what the Attending was describing. The Attending, being much taller than the resident, used his chin to shove the resident's face inches away from the patients open abdomen and proceeded to yell, "CAN YOU SEE NOW?"

I understand that my brother's experience is anecdotal so take it for what its worth.
 
I do not think it is so rare in podiatry.

I would respectfully disagree krabmas. I know there are some bad directors and programs out there but overall residency training is is the best it has ever been. BTW there are suboptimal programs in medicine. Some specialites in medicine have trouble filling their spots and seek out foreign graduates. I can sepak specifically for our program that anyone who shows up, works hard, and takes advantage of all that is offered will have the tools to do what ever walks into their office. In addition we help them find top notch jobs with great starting salaries and benefits. 2 last year had base salaries of $175,000, great benefits and both have already made bonuses taking them over 200K. The average base typically is in the 125-150 range. Compare that to what PADPM and I made our first year and even with inflation that is awesome.
 
Podfather,

I may have missed it from previous posts but what residency program are you involved with?
 
podfather couldn't be more correct when he states that the starting salaries of his residents is significantly greater than our salaries when we started out, even when factoring in inflation.

Those starting salaries are great, and with bonuses bringing the remuneration to $200,000, that's quite a nice income for a young practitioner. According to the APMA's own statistics, those young practitioner are earning significantly more than the national average, and more than many doctors I know that have been in practice for many years.

These doctors GROSS a lot of money, but after office overhead, probably make less actual salary than these recent grads. It's nice to see that these well trained grads are finally earning what they deserve after being underpaid for so many years.

Buckeye Doctor,

I certainly can't speak for podfather, but he has never mentioned the program he is associated with, and I believe that's intentional in order to maintain his anonymity and his objectivity on this site.
 
I would respectfully disagree krabmas. I know there are some bad directors and programs out there but overall residency training is is the best it has ever been. BTW there are suboptimal programs in medicine. Some specialites in medicine have trouble filling their spots and seek out foreign graduates. I can sepak specifically for our program that anyone who shows up, works hard, and takes advantage of all that is offered will have the tools to do what ever walks into their office. In addition we help them find top notch jobs with great starting salaries and benefits. 2 last year had base salaries of $175,000, great benefits and both have already made bonuses taking them over 200K. The average base typically is in the 125-150 range. Compare that to what PADPM and I made our first year and even with inflation that is awesome.


I guess since the program you are affiliated with is so great to its residents, it makes it the norm.

There are plenty of great programs with residents that end up getting great jobs that pay well. Yes, I agree with that. I think this statement and the former are 2 completely different things.

I haven't said anything about the quality of training, or being prepared to practice after residency. Again, this is something different that how a resident is treated.
 
Hi guys-

I'm just a pre-pod myself but I wanted to offer my first hand experience as it relates to the more recent discussions in this thread. I'm an orthopedic surgical NA at a level 1 trauma center that also happens to be a branch campus for one of the medical schools in my state. In my time there, I've had the opportunity to work with dozens of surgeons, and while I'm on an ortho service, I've also assisted on other services (i.e. peds, vascular, ob/gyn, ent, etc.). I can honestly say that by watching various surgeons and the way they treat their residents, nurses, and other staff, it provided me with enough feedback to choose podiatry over MD. Not all surgeons are bad or egotistical; some of them are very friendly and willing to teach you despite being just an NA.

Perhaps I'm lucky, but all of our podiatric surgeons show a level of professionalism and kindness that is unmatched. They never yell or throw things, if they get a wrong instrument or the room isn't set up right. They never get upset if they move their cases to a different OR or the scrub tech is holding a retractor wrong. It seems like they have an infinite amount of patience. The pod doc I shadow with always takes time to acknowledge his staff and ask about their families and things going on in their lives (i.e. kids birthdays, or how they're doing in school).

I just wish that some doctors (regardless of specialty or degree type) would realize that they represent their profession and that their actions speak loudly. I realize that they're not necessarily going to care, but I do think that when you are in a position of authority and influence it wouldn't hurt to look around at how you interact with those around you. I know that these surgeons have a lot going on, and that the words of a lowly member of staff won't reverberate in their heads, but I just want to offer a view from the bottom.

Actually, it is one of my greatest fears is that school and residency will divest me of the basic human decency that I think is important without me realizing it. I've tried to get an angle on how you change from 1st year student to attending through talking to students, residents, and attendings about the changes in personality that you experience and by reading the classic literature on the subject (i.e. Intern), but it seems that it's something very difficult to put into words. The closest I can see is how janV88 explained things: it's a cycle that perpetuates itself. The attending brutalizes the resident. When the resident becomes an attending he/she brutalizes his/her resident, and so forth and so on. It's not always the case, but it does happen.
 
I too have met very mean attendings but also very nice attendings, DPMs, MDs and DOs. Years ago we postulated that residency directors like to take on residents that they can relate to. Perhaps the residency directors that yell and scream look for the same qualities in future residents and choose them over the less intense, more quiet resident option. This could perpetuate the cycle that was mentioned. Perhaps we should have a movement in the field of podiatry to seek out those willing to be attendings who are good teachers and not volatile. It's hard enough to learn a new concept or become proficient at a new procedure; someone yelling totally disrupts the concentration necessary for this learning process to happen.
 
I guess since the program you are affiliated with is so great to its residents, it makes it the norm.

There are plenty of great programs with residents that end up getting great jobs that pay well. Yes, I agree with that. I think this statement and the former are 2 completely different things.

I haven't said anything about the quality of training, or being prepared to practice after residency. Again, this is something different that how a resident is treated.

I sense sarcasm but will respond. What I am saying is yes we have a good program and have attendings of varying personalties. I do not see any difference between the MDs,DOs, and DPMs. There are good and bad among them all. As for other programs, I am involved in many organizations and speak with many directors and faculty members so although I can not speak for every residency, my experience is that what happens at our program is similar at other programs. I have not mentioned our program to stay anonymous.
 
Ah yes, the good old "invite" to the successful pods private office, under the guise of helping and guiding the resident and showing them blah blah blah.

Beware of the office invite under innocent guise. it could be a manipulative tool used many times to get the resident to clip nails or just for the free "eye candy" etc. Who knows the real reasons. Either way it takes the resident out of their protected environment where work place laws apply and potentially subjects them to an unsupervised interaction where it will be his word against hers and to be honest this is kind of how many of societies creepy predators operate in real life.

That has to be one of the worst invites a resident can get.

I mean the only invites that are really beneficial to the residents are the ones where the older pod shares his coding protocol, state x-ray safety manual that he wrote up, showing them how and what software to bill with and advise on other state and federal laws. Maybe give them a copy if you are really interested in their success and only if they plan on having their own practice... but most of the time they will buy a practice will all that crap anyway and a pod to show them the ropes///.

I mean simply "inviting" a resident to WATCH yet another cash cow procedure is rediculous.

These residents will spend the rest of their lives doing these procedures. Punishing them with another 3 hours of office on their 12 hour day ... when they are making 38k a year is really terrible imo.

The only way they are going to learn is doing it themselves and after doing like 10 of them they will be fine.

These invites are usually mandates that end up with the pod either bragging indirectly or somehow intimidating the resident off site.

I think that these invites are really unprofessional and should be banned for the good of the profession.

These invites are usually best when they are at 530 in the morning or 630 at night on either a friday or saturday. lol.
Then you can get the resident to eventually feel obligated to do btch work like seeing patients. lol. most residents know that old trick from eons ago! I hope it's not still going on without the resident 1st showing interest!

If the old pods are really interested in the pods success they will give them a few bucks at the holidays or buy them a hamburger or a 2 dollar tv dinner after a case to say thanks for dictating the damed thing and writting the orders etc and getting the room set up and the supplies ready and casting the patient and acting as a nonpaid 2nd assist./ ... There will be no sharing of the wealth with the peons! Only saturday 630pm cases at the office!
 
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I think there are just all kinds of teaching styles out there. Some build you up, some tear you down. You might not enjoy it in the OR, but sometimes you need correction, and a direct and sharp correction might make it more memorable and minimize the chance of the mistake happening again. Like most big teaching hospitals, we have dozens of DPM attendings and hundreds of MDs, so you get the whole spectrum. I genearally give the overbearing attendings the benefit of the doubt and assume they just work too much and define themselves almost entirely by their job. Honestly, I don't mind attendings being a bit stern if they're technically good and I am making mistakes. The problem becomes the ones with suspect training (or just subpar skills) who putz in the OR and/or with med mgmt yet think they're light years ahead of the lowly incompetent residents, who they allow to do very little in surgery or floor decision making. Then, they wonder why they always get covered by a first year resident, even when they board rearfoot.

Unfortunately, like others who posted above, I have noticed that the overbearing but undercompetent attendings are a bit more common among DPMs than MDs, but this is because we have a wide variety of training in the past (most overbearing MD attendings I've had were still quite competent). Now that pod post-grad training is more standardized and more programs are moving to major teaching hospitals, DPM training quality should improve and variance decrease. Hopefully DPM residents won't have to be making excuses for attendings' decisions or imploring them to change the care plan 20yrs from now, but in the meantime, you sometimes learn by the mistakes of others.
When I did my residency interviews, one of the program directors (an alumni of my current program) criticized my statements that I would prefer a high volume, low quality surg program with varied staff over low volume, high quality program with mostly 3yr trained staff. It was one of those social interview questions where he was probably gonna play devil's advocate either way, and I had done enough homework on the programs to know I was picking the response that would be my honest answer yet a bit less popular with him. I told him that my rationale was that I simply wanted to see as many cases as I could in order to see variety of procedure selection, pathology, etc... and that meant a lot of surg volume regardless of how it was achieved. He countered that the hardest part is making the right decisions and learning quality, and a better graduating resident could come from the low volume, high quality program. I thought he was nuttier than squirrel **** at the time, but the more I think about it, we were both right. I've alwaly been convinced that you can read articles/books anywhere but simply cannot create patient/surgery volume that's not there, and I still am. However, the more I scrub, the more I appreciate good technique and rationale for med/surg approaches (and consequently, the less I mind badgering, technique correction, etc from those high quality attendings). In the end, there are upsides and downsides to any residency: surgery, medicine, clinic, wound care, prac mgmt, academics, social/family time, etc, etc. Like almost anything in life, it's a "you get out what you put in" situation: you will be strong in some aspects but need to strengthen others by extra effort on your own part.

In the end, if you have the confidence that it'll take to board and perform some of the more agressive and in depth recon stuff that DPMs can do, then you probably don't have much of a problem just letting the overbearing attitudes in the OR or some of the less than optimal med/sug treatments you witness roll off your back. Some things are just not in your control, but your time will come. It's a little frustrating at first if you're used to the corporate, military, or athletics world where respect/promotion is more competence and performance based as opposed to simply seniority based as it is in medical training, but oh well... that's just how it is. Bottom line is we're very lucky to have the opportunities we have today.
 
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Whiskers,

You really need psychiatric help. I know your sole (no pun intended) purpose on this site is to get under everyone' skin, because upon reading your posts, I don't believe you've ever posted a single positive comment.

You simply criticize and make ludicrous comments with no factual basis. You blast the APMA, ACFAS, ABPS, attendings, residents, researchers, and the entire profession.

I made it abundantly clear in my post that when residents rotate through my office, I do not use them as slave labor, and do not use them in place of my office staff. I do not have them there to impress them with my income or success.

The residency program does not have a "clinic", therefore the residents are not exposed to pre-operative planning or post operative care/follow up. Many of the attendings are very protective of their "territory" and "trade secrets" in fear of the residents graduating and opening in the same geographic area.

On the contrary, I believe it is extremely important for the residents to understand how important it is to learn how to speak with a patient pre operatively, how to plan a surgical procedure and what post operative cases are supposed to look like.

Performing the actual surgery is often the easy part, and often that's all the resident sees, but doesn't have the opportunity to learn about post operative care. I offer them that opportunity, without putting them "to work".

As previously stated, I have meals brought in to the office for them when they are there. They also have an open door policy in my office and can come to my office whenever they want to spend time to discuss practice managment, etc.

Dozens and dozens of my office manual, billing manual, etc., are floating out there with my present and former residents. My office has no "secrets".

You don't have to reflect your psychotic thoughts on other doctors. I don't have residents in my office to "get in their pants" or for "eye candy", but those are thoughts that YOU obviously have going through your devious mind. I've been happily married for a long time, and most if not ALL these residents have been to my home for meals, with my wife and kids present.

I don't hand out "money" as bonuses to my residents for holidays, etc. I have volunteered countless hours of my time and donate my "stipend" back to the program so the residents can travel for CME credits, and get some extra perks. I obtain ZERO dollars from the program, and over the years can not imagine how much it's actually cost me.

Despite your bitterness and pessimism, there are doctors out there with good intentions. Doctors like podfather have trained excellent residents that will ultimately benefit our profession, while "people" like you, will sit back and spend their full time attempting to piss people off and never accomplish anything or do anything constructive.

Go ahead, laugh, be sarcastic and continue to whine. We expect it from you. That's why you'll be going nowhere fast.
 
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But accomlishing nothing in and of iteself is an accomplishment in this day and age of everyone trying to be famous and important in their own minds!

Podiatry has its share of these types?

I really could give a carp about feeling important. I get my thrills and frostys from reality!

I love reality and dish it out here even though the HAVEs in podiatry hate it.
 
But accomlishing nothing in and of iteself is an accomplishment in this day and age of everyone trying to be famous and important in their own minds!

Podiatry has its share of these types?

I really could give a carp about feeling important. I get my thrills and frostys from reality!

I love reality and dish it out here even though the HAVEs in podiatry hate it.

Vaya con dios my agitated friend
 
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