What would one consider mediocre grades?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Tozanzibarbymotorcar

Tozanzibarbymotorcar

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
362
Reaction score
214
just curious.
Members don't see this ad.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
geez. how do people match into residencies at all?
Click to expand...

Because in real life (unlike SDN), being in the middle 65% of medical students still means you're very smart and accomplished compared to most people, and it also means you can match into a decent variety of specialties.

If we say that 1 SD above the mean is no longer mediocre, thats what, 250 on step 1? That's above the matched average for every single specialty (even derm is 249).
 
If your school uses grades, then 3.0 is my magic number. I don't care what the average is, our brains have been trained since highschool that less than 3.0 = slacker, or just plain dumb. Actually, I like the numeric grades better on this one point. Pass/Fail is the ideal, but DO schools want to stratify us on purpose at this point as they don't have the reputation to stand on to do pass/fail.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
geez. how do people match into residencies at all?
Click to expand...

You do realize that preclinical grades have very little to do with residency matching, right? This is especially true for DO students, because osteopathic schools are not eligible for AOA (alpha omega alpha) membership, and that is really the main reason for MD students to do well in preclinical grades (assuming their school uses preclinical grades to determine AOA status). Even my mentors in an ultra-competitive specialty have said to me that I should absolutely let my DO class rank slide in favor of Step 1, because no one is going to care about my rank especially coming from a DO school.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
Pass/Fail is the ideal, but DO schools want to stratify us on purpose at this point as they don't have the reputation to stand on to do pass/fail.
Click to expand...

Actually one of the KCU administration said they will not do P/F system because it will cause the students to be unmotivated and not study anything and that the students will do very poorly on boards. DO schools are just living in the Stone Age, and don't care for doing anything in an evidence-based manner.

A change to pass/fail grading in the first two years at one medical school results in improved psychological well-being. - PubMed - NCBI
 
Last edited:
sab3156 said:
said they will not do P/F system because it will cause the students to be unmotivated and not study anything and that the students will do very poorly on boards. DO schools are just living in the Stone Age, and don't care for doing anything in an evidence-based manner.
Click to expand...

Yep, we were told, "that just won't work here" without really being given a reason. And for it being a "non-mandatory school" I sure am forced to go to a lot of crap on a daily basis. Hours worth every day. They need to pull their heads out of the sand and get with it.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yep, we were told, "that just won't work here" without really being given a reason. And for it being a "non-mandatory school" I sure am forced to go to a lot of crap on a daily basis. Hours worth every day. They need to pull their heads out of the sand and get with it.
Click to expand...

What really pissed me off was when the Dean tried to tell us that we need to "work together because this is not supposed to be competitive, and there is a need for collaboration among your peers", right after they explained to us that the GPA and ranks are updated after every course and "reflect an important statistic used by PDs to gauge applicants for residency"... LOL.
 
sab3156 said:
Actually one of the KCU administration said they will not do P/F system because it will cause the students to be unmotivated and not study anything and that the students will do very poorly on boards. DO schools are just living in the Stone Age, and don't care for doing anything in an evidence-based manner.

A change to pass/fail grading in the first two years at one medical school results in improved psychological well-being. - PubMed - NCBI
Click to expand...
They may claim that its cause 'students will be unmotivated and lazy' (i.e. the excuse for every crappy change DO schools make), but the reality is they want to stratify us. And I completely agree about DO schools being in the stone age by and large.

If every DO student is so lazy and unmotivated (which seems to be a near universal claim among administrators) why the hell are they accepting us? Why do they interview all these lazy students who are just a bunch of slackers. Their circular logic is infuriating in its stupidity.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
They may claim that, but the result is they want to stratify us. And I completely agree about DO schools being in the stone age by and large.
Click to expand...

But they can still stratify you with rank despite having a P/F system, which is how the majority of MD schools do it. I don't think that is the reason why they do it. They just want to live in the past, in the days of antiquity.
 
sab3156 said:
But they can still stratify you with rank despite having a P/F system, which is how the majority of MD schools do it. I don't think that is the reason why they do it. They just want to live in the past, in the days of antiquity.
Click to expand...
They aren't doing it just for residency, they are doing it to try and force us to do more things like attend class by the threat of a bad grade. So I guess I think there are multiple reason I think they are doing it.

And most MD's I interviewed at did not rank anymore either. Although they still have AOA, so they obviously know.
 
Last edited:
They’re trying to sabatage all of you gunners with the primary care push.

If you don’t want to do FM or IM hospitalist work, you are a mistake in the eyes of adcom.

It’s only going to get worse since most of the admin are either hardcore OMM gurus or FM harda$$es who haven’t practiced clinical medicine in years.

Just counting my days until I match and be done with this prison.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
They’re trying to sabatage all of you gunners with the primary care push.

If you don’t want to do FM or IM hospitalist work, you are a mistake in the eyes of adcom.

It’s only going to get worse since most of the admin are either hardcore OMM gurus or FM harda$$es who haven’t practiced clinical medicine in years.
Click to expand...
DO Gunner = Anyone who doesn't want Primary care or OMM
 
BorntobeDO? said:
DO Gunner = Anyone who doesn't want Primary care or OMM
Click to expand...

They make it so obvious too in their attitudes toward students who make it clear that they want to go into primary care.

Best answer is to keep it tight to your chest except your advisors and your fellow colleagues who are under the same hole as you.
 
sab3156 said:
What really pissed me off was when the Dean tried to tell us that we need to "work together because this is not supposed to be competitive, and there is a need for collaboration among your peers", right after they explained to us that the GPA and ranks are updated after every course and "reflect an important statistic used by PDs to gauge applicants for residency"... LOL.
Click to expand...

This is why I missed Dubin. At least when we complained about rank and non-P/F system he was straightforward and said "you're going to be ranked for the rest of your lives. You'll be ranked based on your board scores. You'll be ranked during the match. You'll even be tracked when you're practicing based on how much productivity you bring the hospital. Get used to it."

Not exactly the softest touch, but I appreciated him telling it like it was.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
They may claim that its cause 'students will be unmotivated and lazy' (i.e. the excuse for every crappy change DO schools make), but the reality is they want to stratify us. And I completely agree about DO schools being in the stone age by and large.

If every DO student is so lazy and unmotivated (which seems to be a near universal claim among administrators) why the hell are they accepting us? Why do they interview all these lazy students who are just a bunch of slackers. Their circular logic is infuriating in its stupidity.
Click to expand...
its because they are lazy. Its easier to just put someone on a bell curve and call it a day. it is more difficult to actually get to know someone and say something meaningful about them for the MSPE.
 
libertyyne said:
its because they are lazy. Its easier to just put someone on a bell curve and call it a day. it is more difficult to actually get to know someone and say something meaningful about them for the MSPE.
Click to expand...
I could easily believe this. My dean has spent more time overseas than talking to anyone in my class.
 
Stagg737 said:
This is why I missed Dubin. At least when we complained about rank and non-P/F system he was straightforward and said "you're going to be ranked for the rest of your lives. You'll be ranked based on your board scores. You'll be ranked during the match. You'll even be tracked when you're practicing based on how much productivity you bring the hospital. Get used to it."

Not exactly the softest touch, but I appreciated him telling it like it was.
Click to expand...

It's still annoying to hear someone say all that, though. They just don't want to change things.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
They may claim that its cause 'students will be unmotivated and lazy' (i.e. the excuse for every crappy change DO schools make), but the reality is they want to stratify us. And I completely agree about DO schools being in the stone age by and large.

If every DO student is so lazy and unmotivated (which seems to be a near universal claim among administrators) why the hell are they accepting us? Why do they interview all these lazy students who are just a bunch of slackers. Their circular logic is infuriating in its stupidity.
Click to expand...
What I am getting a strong whiff of through the electrons is that you have lazy and unmotivated Deans.
 
I resonate with these recent posts so much. I often say that my school is mostly horrible because it caters to the lowest common denominator of the class while at the same time also blaming those students for performing poorly. Why do they keep admitting these caliber students and then expecting better performance? Why do they get to blame students for literally everything (millenials... duh) when the only consistency through many years of the school being around is the bad faculty/admin?

They want everything both ways and won't accept blame. They would have been more rich in hospital administration with these talents.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
They’re trying to sabatage all of you gunners with the primary care push.

If you don’t want to do FM or IM hospitalist work, you are a mistake in the eyes of adcom.

It’s only going to get worse since most of the admin are either hardcore OMM gurus or FM harda$$es who haven’t practiced clinical medicine in years.

Just counting my days until I match and be done with this prison.
Click to expand...
Lol isnt this every medical school though?
 
Stagg737 said:
This is why I missed Dubin. At least when we complained about rank and non-P/F system he was straightforward and said "you're going to be ranked for the rest of your lives. You'll be ranked based on your board scores. You'll be ranked during the match. You'll even be tracked when you're practicing based on how much productivity you bring the hospital. Get used to it."

Not exactly the softest touch, but I appreciated him telling it like it was.
Click to expand...
Same, we need more people like this in general.

We have a dean (idk theres like 10 people that have some sort of deanish title at our school, that was blunt like like this during first year.

We had a ton of nonsense things to deal with at once (OMM, a neuroblock, and a ton of other pointless classes) piling ↑ at once. It was basically like, "yeah this is terrible. but you gotta suck it ↑ and get good". Personally, I loved that kind of honesty with us. Instead of "everything is fine, just keep drinking the coolaid".

@Neopolymath I always wondered what you thought of that infamous "talk" we got during first year in OMM?
 
Anything above 90 is amazing. Anything between 85-90 is fantastic. Anything between 80-85 is good. Anything between 75-80 is okay. Between passing and 75 is mediocre. Then factor in class average. No matter what your score is, if you are more than one standard deviation above class average, you did absolutely amazing. If you are above class average, you did very well. If you did below class average but within one standard deviation, I would classify as mediocre but acceptable. But in the end, passing is all that matters. I have an 80-85 average and usually am right around class average. I do not consider my grades mediocre. I have classmates who get 88+ on most exams but their social skills are so atrocious that unless they improve, they will be very mediocre doctors. I have classmates who get 70-75% on exams but they will be some of the best doctors ever because of how much they care and are willing to learn and go the extra mile. From what my school has told me, GPA in the first two years doesn't matter too much when it comes to residency. Personally, I believe grades don't make someone a good doctor but being caring, kind, and willing to go out of your way to do what you can to help your patient.
 
sab3156 said:
It's still annoying to hear someone say all that, though. They just don't want to change things.
Click to expand...

I mean, Dubin pretty much changed everything other than the grading scales. He changed so much that literally half of the faculty quit and had to be replaced when he came in.
 
getfat said:
Same, we need more people like this in general.

We have a dean (idk theres like 10 people that have some sort of deanish title at our school, that was blunt like like this during first year.

We had a ton of nonsense things to deal with at once (OMM, a neuroblock, and a ton of other pointless classes) piling ↑ at once. It was basically like, "yeah this is terrible. but you gotta suck it ↑ and get good". Personally, I loved that kind of honesty with us. Instead of "everything is fine, just keep drinking the coolaid".

@Neopolymath I always wondered what you thought of that infamous "talk" we got during first year in OMM?
Click to expand...
Honestly, I do5nt actually like the guy much at all but it really got blown out of proportion. He didn't even say anything mean or disrespectful. Frankly, he said stuff that I have thought about students while in lab many times. I don't like OMM a single bit but it's not hard to be good at if you given even 10% effort and not freak about the rubric like a neurotic baby. We needed someone to say that type of thing in PCS and anatomy honestly. I don't think anyone should get bitched out for airing grievances about things that could absolutely be changed to better the program. That said, some of these babies are going to get killed 3rd year because they think any statement that isn't actively nice is like a personal attack.
 
sab3156 said:
It's still annoying to hear someone say all that, though. They just don't want to change things.
Click to expand...

I think they are changing too much. Dubin and Putthoff have made a proven curriculum. Now even Putthoff is in disbelief at how far the curriculum has moved away from what they made.
 
jcve34 said:
I think they are changing too much. Dubin and Putthoff have made a proven curriculum. Now even Putthoff is in disbelief at how far the curriculum has moved away from what they made.
Click to expand...

Yeah but these are changes to the curriculum, not really changes to the system as a whole.

But yeah, Putthoff was in disbelief at the fact that he was given a few days to teach us all of renal pathology, on top of us being taught all of renal pharmacology, and physiology review. This is what happens when you give ignorant osteopathic family medicine physicians control of renal pathology and other courses that are supposed to be taught by pathologists and nephrologists who actually know the scope of the material they are teaching. They need to give Putthoff 100% control over everything related to second year. KCU has no idea what it is doing.
 
sab3156 said:
Yeah but these are changes to the curriculum, not really changes to the system as a whole.

But yeah, Putthoff was in disbelief at the fact that he was given a few days to teach us all of renal pathology, on top of us being taught all of renal pharmacology, and physiology review. This is what happens when you give ignorant osteopathic family medicine physicians control of renal pathology and other courses that are supposed to be taught by pathologists and nephrologists who actually know the scope of the material they are teaching. They need to give Putthoff 100% control over everything related to second year. KCU has no idea what it is doing.
Click to expand...

Preach it. Here’s how I know that dude knows what he’s talking about. He convinced me that i need to take the USMLE. First person from our school to do that.
 
Damn I interviewed at KCU and had bad vibes the whole time. So glad I didn’t go after reading this thread.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
sab3156 said:
You dodged a bullet, my friend.
Click to expand...

It sounds pretty bad but it feels like every school is pulling some type of shenanigans on their students. Heavy emphasis on Step 2 material. Mandatory attendance, extra work for those who meet criteria for "failing boards" and other requirements.

Idk if the reason is the merger or not but its rampant everywhere even the "original 5"
 
getfat said:
It sounds pretty bad but it feels like every school is pulling some type of shenanigans on their students. Heavy emphasis on Step 2 material. Mandatory attendance, extra work for those who meet criteria for "failing boards" and other requirements.

Idk if the reason is the merger or not but its rampant everywhere even the "original 5"
Click to expand...

Fair but some definitely do so more than others.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
getfat said:
It sounds pretty bad but it feels like every school is pulling some type of shenanigans on their students. Heavy emphasis on Step 2 material. Mandatory attendance, extra work for those who meet criteria for "failing boards" and other requirements.

Idk if the reason is the merger or not but its rampant everywhere even the "original 5"
Click to expand...

It doesn't make any sense for osteopathic schools to hurt their students even more than they will be hurting during residency application season just being DOs to begin with. But they do it. They're delusional and out of touch with reality.
 
getfat said:
It sounds pretty bad but it feels like every school is pulling some type of shenanigans on their students. Heavy emphasis on Step 2 material. Mandatory attendance, extra work for those who meet criteria for "failing boards" and other requirements.

Idk if the reason is the merger or not but its rampant everywhere even the "original 5"
Click to expand...
I really hate the emphasis on step 2 material at my school. A third year friend of mine at an md school was feeling overwhelmed with memorizing statin tx groups. I had to memorize last month...for the third frickin’ time! Good thing we’re punting biochem for that amirite?
 
Ho0v-man said:
I really hate the emphasis on step 2 material at my school. A third year friend of mine at an md school was feeling overwhelmed with memorizing statin tx groups. I had to memorize last month...for the third frickin’ time! Good thing we’re punting biochem for that amirite?
Click to expand...

I heard rumors about it before starting medical school but I didn't realize it until 2nd year. I would be dumfounded that none of the sacred texts (B&B, pathoma, sketchy, etc) covered material covered in lecture. Then I would search buzzwords in firecracker and then it would be under step 2 material.

Something that just dawned on me is that a lot of schools might not know exactly is being tested on COMLEX or USMLE. Maybe thats why you see a profound overlap of level/step 2 material.

I know for MCAT, there is this this resource that goes over in detail exactly what is tested. You know exact subjects covered. The MCAT is hard but conceptually you should know what concepts will be tested.

I was curious if there was a website like this for COMLEX or USMLE but sadly there is just broad subjects (anatomy, Embryology, etc).

Call me naive but I find it hard to believe any American school is purposely attempting to put their students at a disadvantage. No matter the emphasis on "producing primary care physicians".

Maybe they just don't want to put in the extra effort to find out. Its not malicious. Its what separates "top tier" schools from the others.

Edit: @libertyyne found the correct resource for USMLE.
 
Last edited:
getfat said:
I heard rumors about it before starting medical school but I didn't realize it until 2nd year. I would be dumfounded that none of the sacred texts (B&B, pathoma, sketchy, etc) covered material covered in lecture. Then I would search buzzwords in firecracker and then it would be under step 2 material.

Something that just dawned on me is that a lot of schools might not know exactly is being tested on COMLEX or USMLE. Maybe thats why you see a profound overlap of level/step 2 material.

I know for MCAT, there is this this resource that goes over in detail exactly what is tested. You know exact subjects covered. The MCAT is hard but conceptually you should know what concepts will be tested.

I was curious if there was a website like this for COMLEX or USMLE but sadly there is just broad subjects (anatomy, Embryology, etc).

Call me naive but I find it hard to believe any American school is purposely attempting to put their students at a disadvantage. No matter the emphasis on "producing primary care physicians".

Maybe they just don't want to put in the extra effort to find out. Its not malicious. Its what separates "top tier" schools from the others.
Click to expand...
The reason behind it usually is tho. Not only do the faculty not know what is on step 1 vs step 2, they don't care about separating it out either. Its the kind of apathy that I expect from clinicians who are basically 'punting' at this point in their career. There is only one way you get fired at COMs and that is making waves. You get in line with the good ol' boys, don't make a fuss, and you can stay for life.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
The reason behind it usually is tho. Not only do the faculty not know what is on step 1 vs step 2, they don't care about separating it out either. Its the kind of apathy that I expect from clinicians who are basically 'punting' at this point in their career. There is only one way you get fired at COMs and that is making waves. You get in line with the good ol' boys, don't make a fuss, and you can stay for life.
Click to expand...

And this is exactly why I feel like DO schools are the diploma mills of the US medical school system. As long as my school can expel a bunch of students on a case-by-case basis to maintain their COMLEX "reputation", and as long as they can continue lying about their "100% match rate", everything is fine. They can even continue teaching that the macula densa produces ADH, teaching archaic pharmacology topics that aren't tested on Step 1 or even used clinically, etc., and the Dean can keep telling all students that they can match anywhere anytime anyhow with a COMLEX score and no USMLE, any specialty.

All they care about is getting that fat tuition check from each student.
 
Last edited:
BorntobeDO? said:
ot only do the faculty not know what is on step 1 vs step 2, they don't care about separating it out either.
Click to expand...

Thats not malicious either. Its just lazy. Personally, I'm not going to get mad at somebody else for their own poor effort. If they want to put in no effort I couldn't care less.

I'm gonna do what I need to do and they can think whatever they are doing is working.

Maybe I'm just too early in 2nd year (I've only covered a neuro, cardio, renal, pulm systems) so I haven't seen the full emphasis on step 2 nonsense. At my school, there is < 5% of tests with purely step 2 nonsense (treatment protocols). When I see these questions I just shake my head and keep it moving.

Hopefully it doesn't get worse but well see.
 
getfat said:
I heard rumors about it before starting medical school but I didn't realize it until 2nd year. I would be dumfounded that none of the sacred texts (B&B, pathoma, sketchy, etc) covered material covered in lecture. Then I would search buzzwords in firecracker and then it would be under step 2 material.

Something that just dawned on me is that a lot of schools might not know exactly is being tested on COMLEX or USMLE. Maybe thats why you see a profound overlap of level/step 2 material.

I know for MCAT, there is this this resource that goes over in detail exactly what is tested. You know exact subjects covered. The MCAT is hard but conceptually you should know what concepts will be tested.

I was curious if there was a website like this for COMLEX or USMLE but sadly there is just broad subjects (anatomy, Embryology, etc).

Call me naive but I find it hard to believe any American school is purposely attempting to put their students at a disadvantage. No matter the emphasis on "producing primary care physicians".

Maybe they just don't want to put in the extra effort to find out. Its not malicious. Its what separates "top tier" schools from the others.
Click to expand...
Yeah I spend some not insignificant time on medbullets teaching myself step 1 stuff so then can understand the step 2 stuff tomorrow. I think I get what they’re trying to do is get us good at doing basic clinical things so we can wow people on rotations. Makes sense bc the way most of DO school faculty got an aoa residency was being efficient, sharp, and like able on auditions. The worst part is, I really think that’s how it should be. It’s way more relevant than answering third order questions about stuff we’ll hardly, if ever, see in real life.

My frustration lies in the fact that thats not the game to play. That’s not how its setup. Who cares if you know tons of info and treatment algorithms for these conditions if theyre going to screen you out bc you couldn’t pass step? Gigantic time sink.

Edit: i wont derail anymore
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
Survey on Thoughts on One Health?
Replies
0
Views
513
rlangetonn
R
W
How much do pre-clinical grades matter?
Replies
4
Views
1K
DOVinciRobot
DOVinciRobot
L
If we’re preparing for SOAP, what is the consensus on what to do about LORs? And how badly would it affect me if my bad eval was in FM?
Replies
0
Views
764
LondonVibes
L
E
Dual applied but would be happy in either specialty
Replies
16
Views
1K
TwoDogMed
T
S
Importance of pre-clinical grades for residency?
Replies
3
Views
2K
Cornfed101
Cornfed101
Top