What's the best way to take day off?

[a_ditchdoc]

I'm not Jewish, but I agree with myosphobe. I usually am not law suit happy, but I just don't see how a program can't accomodate ANY religeous day (and its not like you were asking for months off at a time).

While I agree that it would be nice to be able to accomodate everyone based on their religious preferences, making it mandatory, or threatening lawsuits over it, is simply ridiculous. We all choose our religous beliefs, as well as our career. If they contradict, the chances are, you should have chosen one or the other more carefully. There are so many different religions, to accommodate all of them would be virtually impossible. So, the policy often becomes, accommodate none of them. I have had to work my share of all of "my" holidays, but it was simply because of the line of work I had chosen. I didn't whine over it.

And in case you didn't know, Judaism has LOTs of holidays. Living in Israel, I can tell you for a fact, the majority of residents here have to work on Sabbath, Yom Kippur, etc. Someone has to care for the patients, right? America gives you the right to pursue your religion, not the obligation for others to accommodate you.

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[EctopicFetus]

i would just not show up for few days and screw them.. thats what they get for trying to screw with peoples lives.. just say you had food poisoning and were vomiting profusely.. cant take an h and p or write orders while vomiting.. ... bad form.... whats the worse they can do? fire you? if you have a union they can take it up with the union lawyer..

Keep in mind the people you are really screwing are your colleagues. I might be a naive little pre-intern but screwing your coworkers is a bad thing to do as things will usually come back to you 10 fold over the long run!

 

[turtle md]

I'm an incoming intern, and need a couple of days off for my OWN wedding on Aug 27. I let them know in April that I needed that DAY, allow me to reiterate to emphasize that I didn't ask for a week... ONE DAY for my own wedding. The response "We're sorry, but the schedule has been made. Maybe if you'd of let us know in a timely manner..." So I'm gonna try to find someone to switch with.

Here's a solution. Have your wife-to-be show up at the hospital while you round, grap the chaplin after he/she finishes consoling a patient's family, and use your team and whatever patient you are currently rounding on to act as witnesses. Medical students make great ring-bearers.

 

[lvspro]

i would just not show up for few days and screw them.. thats what they get for trying to screw with peoples lives.. just say you had food poisoning and were vomiting profusely.. cant take an h and p or write orders while vomiting.. ... bad form.... whats the worse they can do? fire you? if you have a union they can take it up with the union lawyer..

Gotta agree w/the other 2 peeps that posted. Also, as I said before, I'm a team player, and will not screw my team over... no matter what.

 

[lvspro]

Here's a solution. Have your wife-to-be show up at the hospital while you round, grap the chaplin after he/she finishes consoling a patient's family, and use your team and whatever patient you are currently rounding on to act as witnesses. Medical students make great ring-bearers.

Already tried to arrange this, but that happens to be a day that they're all at a conference.

 

[mysophobe]

While I agree that it would be nice to be able to accomodate everyone based on their religious preferences, making it mandatory, or threatening lawsuits over it, is simply ridiculous. We all choose our religous beliefs, as well as our career. If they contradict, the chances are, you should have chosen one or the other more carefully. There are so many different religions, to accommodate all of them would be virtually impossible. So, the policy often becomes, accommodate none of them. I have had to work my share of all of "my" holidays, but it was simply because of the line of work I had chosen. I didn't whine over it.

And in case you didn't know, Judaism has LOTs of holidays. Living in Israel, I can tell you for a fact, the majority of residents here have to work on Sabbath, Yom Kippur, etc. Someone has to care for the patients, right? America gives you the right to pursue your religion, not the obligation for others to accommodate you.

It's called the right to free exercise of religion. Personally, I'm not all that religious, so if I had to work on a holiday, I wouldn't have a problem (sue-happy jokes aside). However, for an Orthodox Jew, asking them to take a test on one of the holy days, and then refusing to allow them to take it the following day is ridiculous.

 

[sblau001]

While I agree that it would be nice to be able to accomodate everyone based on their religious preferences, making it mandatory, or threatening lawsuits over it, is simply ridiculous. We all choose our religous beliefs, as well as our career. If they contradict, the chances are, you should have chosen one or the other more carefully. There are so many different religions, to accommodate all of them would be virtually impossible. So, the policy often becomes, accommodate none of them. I have had to work my share of all of "my" holidays, but it was simply because of the line of work I had chosen. I didn't whine over it.

And in case you didn't know, Judaism has LOTs of holidays. Living in Israel, I can tell you for a fact, the majority of residents here have to work on Sabbath, Yom Kippur, etc. Someone has to care for the patients, right? America gives you the right to pursue your religion, not the obligation for others to accommodate you.

Let me clarify this. I have no problem coming to work on the Sabbath as a physician, and did throughout my internship. Furthermore, I volunteered to take call on Christmas, New Years and Easter (they took me up on 2 of the 3). I do not, however, think it is unreasonable to ask to be given an exam (which I absolutely can not take on the Sabbath, no matter what the consequences) on a different day, especially when every other surgery program with a religious Jew in it has made exceptions.

Secondly, to be put on call on Yom Kippur is actually somewhat stupid. Although I performed my job as required, the fact that I could not eat or drink the entire day was not exactly the most beneficial thing for patients either. Last year Yom Kippur was on a Saturday, which would have made it even easier for them to switch the schedule, as many interns have off that day anyway.

Mind you, I did not secure an attorney for the Yom Kippur thing. It was strictly the matter of the exam. And once again, let me reiterate. As so many other programs were willing and able to accomodate their residents, there was really no excuse for them to not administer this exam on a different day.

And you're right, Judaism does have a lot of holidays. But please don't give me this holier-than-thou speech when I've never requested any of them off except for Yom Kippur. Tending to patients is one of only two professions where one can actually work on the Sabbath and holidays in the interest of patient lives. (The other is military service.) And to say that I should have chosen either my religion or my career more carefully is downright insulting to the highest degree. There have been countless numbers of orthodox Jews who have contributed to the medical profession and continue to file the ranks of medical schools. And every single one of them would have shown even one of their self-hating brethren more respect than that.

 

[OUsooner]

Let me clarify this. I have no problem coming to work on the Sabbath as a physician, and did throughout my internship. Furthermore, I volunteered to take call on Christmas, New Years and Easter (they took me up on 2 of the 3). I do not, however, think it is unreasonable to ask to be given an exam (which I absolutely can not take on the Sabbath, no matter what the consequences) on a different day, especially when every other surgery program with a religious Jew in it has made exceptions.

Secondly, to be put on call on Yom Kippur is actually somewhat stupid. Although I performed my job as required, the fact that I could not eat or drink the entire day was not exactly the most beneficial thing for patients either. Last year Yom Kippur was on a Saturday, which would have made it even easier for them to switch the schedule, as many interns have off that day anyway.

Mind you, I did not secure an attorney for the Yom Kippur thing. It was strictly the matter of the exam. And once again, let me reiterate. As so many other programs were willing and able to accomodate their residents, there was really no excuse for them to not administer this exam on a different day.

And you're right, Judaism does have a lot of holidays. But please don't give me this holier-than-thou speech when I've never requested any of them off except for Yom Kippur. Tending to patients is one of only two professions where one can actually work on the Sabbath and holidays in the interest of patient lives. (The other is military service.) And to say that I should have chosen either my religion or my career more carefully is downright insulting to the highest degree. There have been countless numbers of orthodox Jews who have contributed to the medical profession and continue to file the ranks of medical schools. And every single one of them would have shown even one of their self-hating brethren more respect than that.

While I agree that your program should have attempted to accomodate you a little better than they did, I do not see anything in your case which would lead to a successful lawsuit against the hospital.
Also something tells me that not "every single surgery program with a religious Jew in it has made exceptions". Again I would like to reiterate that you have good reason to be pissed, just not legal precedent on your side. Just my 2 cents.

 

[a_ditchdoc]

But please don't give me this holier-than-thou speech when I've never requested any of them off except for Yom Kippur.

And to say that I should have chosen either my religion or my career more carefully is downright insulting to the highest degree. There have been countless numbers of orthodox Jews who have contributed to the medical profession and continue to file the ranks of medical schools. And every single one of them would have shown even one of their self-hating brethren more respect than that.

First of all, I was not trying to be "Holier-than-thou". I am not religious, you are. I agree that it would have been nice for them to have scheduled the exam on another day, but to imply that you would sue unless they accomodated you seemed a bit far fetched. My point about choosing one or the other more carefully implied that these are issues that should have been discussed, and thought out, well in advance. If you were raised orthodox, then I suppose it was not much of a choice to continue with your religious preferences. But, did you tell the program you were orthodox and required special holidays off when you were applying or did you just assume they would make accomodations? I am aware of some programs that are very accommodating to Judiaism, perhaps you should have considered one of them. Maybe I am a bit sensitive concerning the issue, and I really don't mean disrespect to you. But, it is not like Israel makes accomodations for me due to my holidays, nor do I expect them to. Although, my program did give me christmas off.

I find it a bit humorous that you are lecturing me on the contributions that Jews make to the medical community, especially considering they are the ones training me in medicine. I have been in their homes, eaten shabbot dinner, and learned a great deal about medicine and Jewish culture from them. Many of them have been orthodox, and they have been some of my favorite professors. So please don't turn this into some "antisemitism" thread or try to make me look like some racist.

Best of luck...

 

[SoCuteMD]

First of all, I was not trying to be "Holier-than-thou". I am not religious, you are. I agree that it would have been nice for them to have scheduled the exam on another day, but to imply that you would sue unless they accomodated you seemed a bit far fetched. My point about choosing one or the other more carefully implied that these are issues that should have been discussed, and thought out, well in advance. If you were raised orthodox, then I suppose it was not much of a choice to continue with your religious preferences. But, did you tell the program you were orthodox and required special holidays off when you were applying or did you just assume they would make accomodations? I am aware of some programs that are very accommodating to Judiaism, perhaps you should have considered one of them. Maybe I am a bit sensitive concerning the issue, and I really don't mean disrespect to you. But, it is not like Israel makes accomodations for me due to my holidays, nor do I expect them to. Although, my program did give me christmas off.

I find it a bit humorous that you are lecturing me on the contributions that Jews make to the medical community, especially considering they are the ones training me in medicine. I have been in their homes, eaten shabbot dinner, and learned a great deal about medicine and Jewish culture from them. Many of them have been orthodox, and they have been some of my favorite professors. So please don't turn this into some "antisemitism" thread or try to make me look like some racist.

Best of luck...

While having Christmas off is nice, Christianity does not require that we refrain from work on Christmas day or any other day. Judaism is a different story, and as someone living in Israel you should certainly recognize and appreciate the difference.

 

[dwir918]

Secondly, to be put on call on Yom Kippur is actually somewhat stupid. Although I performed my job as required, the fact that I could not eat or drink the entire day was not exactly the most beneficial thing for patients either.

This is a poor argument. Regardless of the validity of your other points, to suggest compromising patient care due to your religious practices goes against you, not against them. Most people can refrain from eating one day without having an effect on patients, but if it did jeopardize your ability to think clearly and make good judgments, any errors would not be the fault of those who didn't give you your requested day off, and it is not something they should have to take into consideration in making these decisions. It's a passive-aggressive way of saying "I'll show them why they should have given me the day off," even if you didn't mean it that way. Even if it only means your hunger would cause you to be crabby to patients, that is still your fault and the consequences belong to you.

To a dying patient: "I'm sorry I can't do more for you, but I haven't eaten a thing today. They should have given me the day off. You'll have to take it up with them."

Doing your job means doing it well.

 

[a_ditchdoc]

While having Christmas off is nice, Christianity does not require that we refrain from work on Christmas day or any other day. Judaism is a different story, and as someone living in Israel you should certainly recognize and appreciate the difference.

Yes, I certainly recognize the difference. But, noone requires that you be religious, it is a choice. While it is less of a choice for people that grew up with religion, people that decide to follow religion should not expect, or demand, benefits over their peers. The majority of the population in Israel is secular. Thus, most of the population doesn't care one way or the other.

I do not thnk that the original poster was "trying to get over" on anyone. In truth, I think he is sincere and simply felt they should have accommodated this one day. Perhaps they should have. But, rearranging everyone elses schedule for a single individual is inconvenient. Some of the religious students from my program have gone on to institutions where they traded holidays with people from other religions, it worked out for both of them. Others have complained that they could not have every shabbot off. But to do so would place someone working in their place every weekend. I know that most of these people are willing to make concessions in other areas, but it is presumptious to assume that others are obligated to be inconvenienced for anothers religious choices.

I said I had Christmas off, I did not say that I was Christian (actualy, I'm a deist). During Ramadan, one of my muslim classmates fasted for an entire month during our surgery rotation. He would set his alarm during the night to eat. Certainly noone accommodated him.

Anyway, we have hijacked this thread enough. I meant no harm to the OP, I'm sure he's a great guy. The threatened lawsuit got my bloomers all bunched up...

 

[mysophobe]

So, rearranging everyone's schedule for one person to go to a wedding or a funeral is inconvenient too. Do you think it's unreasonable for them to accommodate those situations? No hostility, I'm just curious.

 

[dinosaurcrumpet]

So, rearranging everyone's schedule for one person to go to a wedding or a funeral is inconvenient too. Do you think it's unreasonable for them to accommodate those situations? No hostility, I'm just curious.

Another waste-of-space pointless post by mysophobe.

 

[mysophobe]

Excuse me? Last time I checked, this is a conversation, though one with delayed responses and many participants. We're talking about rearranging schedules for religious holidays. Weddings and funerals are typically religious. I am curious as to whether or not the person I was directing the question to feels that they are inconvenient. How that is a "waste-of-space pointless post", I am still trying to understand.

Oh, and FWIW, a perfect example of a "waste-of-space pointless post" would be your own. Are your other posts in your vast history here this edifying?

 

[a_ditchdoc]

So, rearranging everyone's schedule for one person to go to a wedding or a funeral is inconvenient too. Do you think it's unreasonable for them to accommodate those situations? No hostility, I'm just curious.

No, I don't. Usually weddings and funerals are one time events, not something that happens over and over. Should you be allowed to go to every wedding and funeral of everyone you have ever met? Probably not.

 

[mysophobe]

That's reasonable. I tend to agree with you. Obviously, if someone in your family is getting married or has died, that's an exception. But, like many have said on this thread already, if one of your friends is getting married and you can't make it, it isn't the end of the world. I think if you are close enough that he invited you, then he also understands how time consuming medicine is.

 

[Bevo]

this thread has morphed into something else ...

many jewish holidays, but it has been my experience that there are only a few where most jews would like off. The more orthodox will want more, but even in my own opnion that is asking for too much.

To me the big holidays are Yum Kippur, Rosh Hashanah and Passover. I have taken exams and worked on those days to my displeasure. But I'm not that religious of an individual that I would refuse to even at my own demise.


I do not think its out of line to accomodate a few days a year for religious reasons. Days off during the year for christian purposes are meaningless days to many of us.

I guess for my own situation, I'll have to approach the program once I find out where I am going for sure.

Got 1 brother and I don't wanna miss his wedding.

 

[sblau001]

While I agree that your program should have attempted to accomodate you a little better than they did, I do not see anything in your case which would lead to a successful lawsuit against the hospital.
Also something tells me that not "every single surgery program with a religious Jew in it has made exceptions". Again I would like to reiterate that you have good reason to be pissed, just not legal precedent on your side. Just my 2 cents.

Let me assure you, EVERY surgery program with an orthodox resident made an exception. (While there are many Jews in medicine, there aren't too many orthodox surgery residents, and most of us know each other.)

The ABSITE exam is crucial to remaining in a surgery program or switching programs. As this was an exam that would have had a direct impact on my career had I chosen to stay in surgery, this does fall into the category of religious discrimination. I was assured by both several civil liberty attorneys, as well as a few high profile judges, that this would have been a no-brainer case. The American Board of Surgery itself expressly allows the exam to be given on a different day other than Saturday for religious reasons, specifically because this has been an issue.

Once again, this was a last resort for me, and in the end never happened anyway. I can't stand trial lawyers just like every other physician, but when it comes to possibly having to save your career, you've got to try every means possible.

 

[sblau001]

many jewish holidays, but it has been my experience that there are only a few where most jews would like off. The more orthodox will want more, but even in my own opnion that is asking for too much.

There are actually several "Shomer Shabbos" residencies, residency programs structured to give orthodox Jews off on Saturdays and Jewish holidays. Most of them are in internal medicine, but one in general surgery exists as well in Little Rock, Arkansas of all places. In return, these residents take call every Sunday and secular holiday. I'm not sure how vacation works, but some of the Jewish holidays may be counted as vacation days as well.

I specifically avoided programs like this because personally, I would not have felt right making others even feel as if they had to go out of their way to accomodate me on a regular basis. The only day off the entire year I requested was Yom Kippur. (I didn't even bother asking for Rosh Hashana.)

I do consider myself quite religious, as I wear a yarmulke every day to work, but at the same time I am also very realistic about what residency entails. Furthermore, I believe that having so many holidays during the year, even if I can't get them off at this point in my career, makes me that much more sensitive to other people's religious days as well. It was for this reason that I offered to cover Christmas, New Years, and Easter. Why should a Christian or Catholic resident not be able to spend those days with their friends or family, when someone else can cover for them for whom those days have no religious significance?

 

[mysophobe]

Out of curiosity, which specialty did you switch into, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[OUsooner]

Let me assure you, EVERY surgery program with an orthodox resident made an exception. (While there are many Jews in medicine, there aren't too many orthodox surgery residents, and most of us know each other.)

Well I didn't picture all you guys getting exceptions in one particular year. I was more referring to the old school days when surgeons were even more "hardcore" (for lack of a better term) and made fewer exceptions for any reason. I've met many a surgery attending who seemed to be convinced that he was in fact God.

Also I am sure the attorneys you talked to stated you had a case. A case against a physician or hospital has to be extremely WEAK for lawyer to tell you that it is not worth pursuing.

 

[EctopicFetus]

OUSooner my wife is an attorney and believe me a case doesnt have to be that weak for it not to be worthwhile for them. There has to be a lot of money available to make it worth their while because if they take it on contingency they have to front all the expenses and if they dont win they get squat for their time and dont get the expenses back.

Of course if you are paying the lawyer hourly they dont care about this as much. Then again if the ACLU (who I hate) is involved they will pursue it if they think someone is acting inappropriately.

During my GSurg rotation one of the attendings (GSurg/Trauma) was an orthodox Jew and his deal was that he would take call every Sat night (as an attending) (and where I was that meant coming in EVERY Sat Night), someone asked him about residency and he said that they accomodated him (He trained at Rush in Chicago).

He is probably 45-50 yrs old.

Just putting out some more info.

 

[OUsooner]

I agree ectopic fetus. The thing with lawyers is if you give them an inch, they will take a mile (hope your wife has declared a truce in your relationship ). I'm just agreeing that attorneys would be all over this case, whether or not its an open and shut deal.

In the end I definately agree that they should have, at the very least, attempted to accomadate the resident. I'm just not surprised that there are surgery programs out there that lack empathy and/or common sense.