whats the difference between M.D and DO?

[DocHeart]

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Will both degrees enable you to practice medicine? Why do more peopel on here want M.D rather than DO?

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Will both degrees enable you to practice medicine?

Yes. Both licenses grant rights to unlimited practice of medicine in the United States

Why do more peopel on here want M.D rather than DO?

Because some of the public is not aware of what a DO is (evident by first question) and therefore, if all else is equal, the applicants choose MD for prestige in addition to more research opportunities and perhaps a few other reasons I'm unaware of.

 

[Shinken]

Will both degrees enable you to practice medicine? Why do more peopel on here want M.D rather than DO?

Ego.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Will both degrees enable you to practice medicine? Why do more peopel on here want M.D rather than DO?

DOs make about 15% more than MD's while practicing the same medicine.

 

[jzeidenb]

DOs make about 15% more than MD's while practicing the same medicine.

Do you have evidence to back up this claim?

 

[Meatwad]

Do you have evidence to back up this claim?

His cousin's wallet.

 

[Animus]

Do you have evidence to back up this claim?

He could mean in fam practice. As sometimes if you do a lot of OMM in the fam practice setting DOs can considerably increase there income vs an MD. At least this is how it is from my understanding.

 

[apnea]

You're probably going to get yoru face flamed off here. But welcome to SDN, that's how we roll 🙄

There's no difference. People argue the difference in philosophy, but it's obsolete. Both degrees give you unlimited scope of practice, the difference is the letters after your name. It's been argued over and over again, and people constantly come here asking the same question, because they can't figure the difference out on their own...largely because there isn't one. It's the difference between "doctor" and "physician."

 

[ShyRem]

This question can probably be best answered by doing a search and reviewing the FAQ's.

Please also be aware of the TOS regarding MD vs. DO threads.

As for the OP's question: in practice there isn't any difference really. In terms of education, DOs get extra education in manipulative medicine, however many DO's don't use it in their practices.

 

[seemstress]

i like to compare it to going to a dentist who's a DDS vs. a DMD

 

[ShyRem]

Interestingly enough, I just asked my dentist that very question a couple of weeks ago. Good analogy (from the very little I know about the two degrees).

 

[bth7]

Will both degrees enable you to practice medicine? Why do more peopel on here want M.D rather than DO?

After more than a century of often bitterly contentious relationships between the osteopathic and allopathic medical professions, we now find ourselves living at a time when osteopathic and allopathic graduates are both sought after by many of the same residency programs; are in most instances both licensed by the same licensing boards; are both privileged by many of the same hospitals; and are found in appreciable numbers on the faculties of each other's medical schools.
Jordan J. Cohen, M.D.; AAMC President

Wikipedia: Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic medicine

recent thread discussing this topic: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=429376

bth

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

DOs make about 15% more than MD's while practicing the same medicine.

I seem to have confused some. The popcorn smiley guy was meant to be me watching you guys fight over my faulse statement. Although in theory DO's could make a little extra dough in Family medicine because of the extra procedures of OMM.

 

[Meatwad]

Interestingly enough, I just asked my dentist that very question a couple of weeks ago. Good analogy (from the very little I know about the two degrees).

Eh, not really; allopathic and osteopathic medicine are supposed to differ philosophically (whether or not they do in a practical sense can be argued). The DDS and DMD is completely a question of nomenclature, not philosophy. A DDS has no more of a focus on surgery than a DMD, and a DMD has no more focus on medical treatment than a DDS.

The DMD vs DDS argument is more akin to the BA vs AB argument, or BS for ScB. Some Ivies grant the ScB/AB because it looks fancier and more classic, although it doesn't reflect a different curriculum that other schools with BS/BA's.

 

[RPedigo]

Are there any special procedures for someone graduating from a school of osteopathic medicine who wishes to do a residency at an allopathic-affiliated residency program? In other words, can a DO graduate apply for every single residency that a MD graduate can apply for?

 

[spicedmanna]

Are there any special procedures for someone graduating from a school of osteopathic medicine who wishes to do a residency at an allopathic-affiliated residency program? In other words, can a DO graduate apply for every single residency that a MD graduate can apply for?

As far as I know, as a osteopathic graduate, you would be eligible to match for any ACGME residency. In general, there isn't anything "special" you need to do, since the allopathic match is technically open to DO's, but it would certainly be wise and in your favor to take the USMLE Step 1 in addition to the COMLEX. However, this doesn't mean you'll necessarily be able to match into every single available allopathic residency and that every allopathic program is completely open to DO's. In fact, my general impression is that this is not the case; there are probably some programs that aren't pro-DO. As long as you are aware of this possibility and apply accordingly, there won't be any major surprises in that regard.

 

[Jpc984]

Are there any special procedures for someone graduating from a school of osteopathic medicine who wishes to do a residency at an allopathic-affiliated residency program? In other words, can a DO graduate apply for every single residency that a MD graduate can apply for?

I think you have to take the USMLEs in addition to the COMLEX but I could be wrong.

 

[spicedmanna]

I think you have to take the USMLEs in addition to the COMLEX but I could be wrong.

It would be wise.

 

[Jpc984]

It would be wise.

congrats on >3000 posts.

 

[spicedmanna]

congrats on >3000 posts.

Why, thank you. 🙂

Now, I have to get back to work. The number of pages that I need to read are also increasing; quite rapidly, in fact.

One thing is certain: osteopathic, or allopathic, philosophy difference, or whatnot, it's all medical school. And I'll tell you, who ever said that MS1 is like taking a drink out of a fire hose is dead right. I'm struggling to keep up here and it's only been the first few days.

Good luck everyone. 🙂

 

[ShyRem]

Taking the USMLE is not a necessity, but there are allo programs that "prefer" you take the USMLE (as in if you don't they won't really look at you). The number of programs that will take either exam are increasing. I would recommend you contact every residency program you are interested in and asking them if USMLE is necessary or they will accept COMLEX.

 

[Jpc984]

Taking the USMLE is not a necessity, but there are allo programs that "prefer" you take the USMLE (as in if you don't they won't really look at you). The number of programs that will take either exam are increasing. I would recommend you contact every residency program you are interested in and asking them if USMLE is necessary or they will accept COMLEX.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[gasapple]

Why, thank you. 🙂

Now, I have to get back to work. The number of pages that I need to read are also increasing; quite rapidly, in fact.

One thing is certain: osteopathic, or allopathic, philosophy difference, or whatnot, it's all medical school. And I'll tell you, who ever said that MS1 is like taking a drink out of a fire hose is dead right. I'm struggling to keep up here and it's only been the first few days.

Good luck everyone. 🙂

Best of luck to you, Spiced. 👍

 

[littlealex]

In all honesty, and this is not one of those DO versus MD flame wars.

I seriously considered DO because I have relatively low GPA (3.5), but at the end of the day, I selected to only apply to MD schools for the following reasons:

1) I do not believe in most of the DO-specific techniques. Rearrange skull bones to cure diseases? I just cannot bring myself to believe in that, and would not want to spend time learning how to do it.

2) MD schools typically have higher calibered students. I just think I will meet more people with similar personality and lifestyle at an MD school.

3) I don't want to have to explain what a DO is to all my Asian relatives (shallow reason, I know).

4) I am not interested in primary care. While you can match into specialties from a DO school, the DO philosophy favors primary care.


I guess at the end of the day, I felt that if I were to apply DO, I would only be using it as a backup. I lacked real reasons to WANT to be a DO instead of an MD. I just felt that my attitudes were unfair to those who actually want to be a DO, and I thought not applying would allow those who truly prefer a DO degree to have a better chance of getting in.

 

[gasapple]

In all honesty, and this is not one of those DO versus MD flame wars.

I seriously considered DO because I have relatively low GPA (3.5), but at the end of the day, I selected to only apply to MD schools for the following reasons:

1) I do not believe in most of the DO-specific techniques. Rearrange skull bones to cure diseases? I just cannot bring myself to believe in that, and would not want to spend time learning how to do it.

2) MD schools typically have higher calibered students. I just think I will meet more people with similar personality and lifestyle at an MD school.

3) I don't want to have to explain what a DO is to all my Asian relatives (shallow reason, I know).

4) I am not interested in primary care. While you can match into specialties from a DO school, the DO philosophy favors primary care.


I guess at the end of the day, I felt that if I were to apply DO, I would only be using it as a backup. I lacked real reasons to WANT to be a DO instead of an MD. I just felt that my attitudes were unfair to those who actually want to be a DO, and I thought not applying would allow those who truly prefer a DO degree to have a better chance of getting in.

Stated like a true pre-med.

 

[gasapple]

Ego.

Proven in this very thread. (see post above)

 

[Jpc984]

Not all DOs believe in cranial manipulation.

 

[littlealex]

Why do they pursue a DO degree if they do not believe in crianial manipulation?

The best DO schools are better than quite a few MD schools, and the DO match lists are typically fairly impressive. When it comes to medical schools and residency, going to a particular school provides you with resources but what you get out of it is determined by the individual.

So why pursue an education that teaches quite a few things that you never plan on practicing?

How many DO doctors actually practice cranial manipulation out of school? Why spend the extra hours on that when you could spend it, I don't know, kayaking?

 

[bth7]

Why do they pursue a DO degree if they do not believe in crianial manipulation?

The best DO schools are better than quite a few MD schools, and the DO match lists are typically fairly impressive. When it comes to medical schools and residency, going to a particular school provides you with resources but what you get out of it is determined by the individual.

So why pursue an education that teaches quite a few things that you never plan on practicing?

How many DO doctors actually practice cranial manipulation out of school? Why spend the extra hours on that when you could spend it, I don't know, kayaking?

Cranial manipulation is just one technique of Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM.) Not all DO schools teach it. And a lot of people don't like it because it has no scientific efficacy, and its very hard to measure or assess scientifically, same as other subjective considerations such as bedside manner.

Even for someone who never practices OMM, there's a benefit to learning it. Just like we learn what physical therapists do, though we never do the therapy & rehab ourselves. It's good to understand what your patients are going through.

Very few MDs and DOs practice Cranial, but those that do love it and do it on the patients who request it. I've never heard a patient who didn't enjoy a little cranial.

bth

 

[gasapple]

Why do they pursue a DO degree if they do not believe in crianial manipulation?

The best DO schools are better than quite a few MD schools, and the DO match lists are typically fairly impressive. When it comes to medical schools and residency, going to a particular school provides you with resources but what you get out of it is determined by the individual.

So why pursue an education that teaches quite a few things that you never plan on practicing?

How many DO doctors actually practice cranial manipulation out of school? Why spend the extra hours on that when you could spend it, I don't know, kayaking?

LOL Kayaking... 👍

Suggesting you'd meet "higher caliber" people in an allopathic school is pure malarkey. I've been there (research capacity) and the grass always appears greener on the other side, especially to pre-meds who don't really know the ins-and-outs of medicine (i.e. you). That was a really ridiculous bullet, IMO.

You're right on one thing: A number of osteopathic schools are better than some of the allopathic schools. This is the reason a large majority of us rank schools the way we do and have no qualms about osteopathic or allopathic medicine when compared. I know MDs who practice different forms of medicine, including accupuncture. It's up to the individual as to what they - and their patients, see as effective. We are all physicians and there is no need for such a divisive perspective from either side. The sparks are typically fanned by pre-meds who have no real idea about medicine and frankly, make the same assumptions that you did in your original, obviously mis-informed post. Anybody who has an real foresight or is actually on the "other side" (practicing) knows that this competitive bull**** between the disciplines is unfounded and the result of ignorant pre-meds.

The inherent problem with you not wanting to explain to your family about DOs is probably sheer laziness or insecurity. I know about the pressures of family and how they can be set in their ways but most of it is pure ignorance on their part and YOU can educate them if that type of thing is actually important to you. But first, you must educate yourself on medicine without compartmentalizing DO/MD. Don't buy stock in all the pre-conceived notions and pre-med misbeliefs; be your own man.

As far as the cranial therapy, there are benefits to manipulation of the skull but not insofar as "moving the bones", IMHO - but I'm not qualified to make any real assumption here. I think cranial manipulation is somewhat of a mischaracterization of what OMM is all about as it relates to the larger picture. There are many debates and there is a considerable amount of research money (millions) being dumped into TCOM (Texas) for OMM research. Put it this way, OMM is MUCH more than just cranial.

I think I'll defer to JPHazleton who could respond to your OMM inquiry. He's a surgeon who uses OMT and knowledgeable on the subject.

For the record, I also agree with BTH7's response.

 

[gasapple]

LittleAlex, didn't you post this recently?:

"My parents don't want me to be a doctor. They want me to go into something with a smaller time investment so I'll have time for my life and be happier. =( "

Follow your instinct and go for medicine if it's what YOU want. Don't base your decision on other people's perceptions. 👍

In all honesty, and this is not one of those DO versus MD flame wars.

I seriously considered DO because I have relatively low GPA (3.5), but at the end of the day, I selected to only apply to MD schools for the following reasons:

1) I do not believe in most of the DO-specific techniques. Rearrange skull bones to cure diseases? I just cannot bring myself to believe in that, and would not want to spend time learning how to do it.

2) MD schools typically have higher calibered students. I just think I will meet more people with similar personality and lifestyle at an MD school.

3) I don't want to have to explain what a DO is to all my Asian relatives (shallow reason, I know).

4) I am not interested in primary care. While you can match into specialties from a DO school, the DO philosophy favors primary care.


I guess at the end of the day, I felt that if I were to apply DO, I would only be using it as a backup. I lacked real reasons to WANT to be a DO instead of an MD. I just felt that my attitudes were unfair to those who actually want to be a DO, and I thought not applying would allow those who truly prefer a DO degree to have a better chance of getting in.

 

[Dakayus]

Reasons why I want to be a D.O. over an M.D.

1. I don't suffer from a low GPA
2. I'm assuming my MCAT, soon to be scored, will be around a 32 or so
3. I'm applying to both MD and DO just to prove I can get into both but will choose DO anyways
4. Their DO symbol is the rod of Ascelpius vs MD's caduceus.
5. I like to be different
6. DO schools are nearer to me
7. I like vowels
8. I like to prove people wrong so by being a better physician, coming from a DO background, to an MD physician.
9. Less competition in school for higher rankings.
10. Somewhat better pick up line than an MD requiring more talking.😎

I got into many schools for undergraduate including UCLA, USC, Berkeley, JHU, etc but chose UCSD so I can have a higher GPA while still receiving a good education.

It's all about compromise. 😀

 

[littlealex]

LOL Kayaking... 👍

Suggesting you'd meet "higher caliber" people in an allopathic school is pure malarkey. I've been there (research capacity) and the grass always appears greener on the other side, especially to pre-meds who don't really know the ins-and-outs of medicine (i.e. you). That was a really ridiculous bullet, IMO.

You're right on one thing: A number of osteopathic schools are better than some of the allopathic schools. This is the reason a large majority of us rank schools the way we do and have no qualms about osteopathic or allopathic medicine when compared. I know MDs who practice different forms of medicine, including accupuncture. It's up to the individual as to what they - and their patients, see as effective. We are all physicians and there is no need for such a divisive perspective from either side. The sparks are typically fanned by pre-meds who have no real idea about medicine and frankly, make the same assumptions that you did in your original, obviously mis-informed post. Anybody who has an real foresight or is actually on the "other side" (practicing) knows that this competitive bull**** between the disciplines is unfounded and the result of ignorant pre-meds.

The inherent problem with you not wanting to explain to your family about DOs is probably sheer laziness or insecurity. I know about the pressures of family and how they can be set in their ways but most of it is pure ignorance on their part and YOU can educate them if that type of thing is actually important to you. But first, you must educate yourself on medicine without compartmentalizing DO/MD. Don't buy stock in all the pre-conceived notions and pre-med misbeliefs; be your own man.

As far as the cranial therapy, there are benefits to manipulation of the skull but not insofar as "moving the bones", IMHO - but I'm not qualified to make any real assumption here. I think cranial manipulation is somewhat of a mischaracterization of what OMM is all about as it relates to the larger picture. There are many debates and there is a considerable amount of research money (millions) being dumped into TCOM (Texas) for OMM research. Put it this way, OMM is MUCH more than just cranial.

I think I'll defer to JPHazleton who could respond to your OMM inquiry. He's a surgeon who uses OMT and knowledgeable on the subject.

For the record, I also agree with BTH7's response.

Oh I agree with you that much of the reasons of not wanting to explain to my family what a DO is stems of insecurities. DO is a relatively unknown branch of medicine, and I've never personally met a DO, which may contribute to my ignorance.

As for "higher caliber", I apologize for that phrasing. I just meant that most MD schools have much higher averages. Growing up in a background where most of my peers averaged 1500 SATs and 34+ MCATs, I'm not sure if I will fit in well into a DO school.

BTH7 I really appreciate your response by the way. You two had taught me that I don't know, well, jack, about OMM. It doesn't make me want to learn it really, but it did teach me that I should not speak ill of something I don't know.


As I said in my original post, I didn't mean to make a post bashing DO, or to start a flame war. I was merely listing my personal reasons for not wanting to apply to a DO. In the end, I just feel like there is no compelling reason for me to go DO instead of MD.

 

[gasapple]

Oh I agree with you that much of the reasons of not wanting to explain to my family what a DO is stems of insecurities. DO is a relatively unknown branch of medicine, and I've never personally met a DO, which may contribute to my ignorance.

As for "higher caliber", I apologize for that phrasing. I just meant that most MD schools have much higher averages. Growing up in a background where most of my peers averaged 1500 SATs and 34+ MCATs, I'm not sure if I will fit in well into a DO school.

BTH7 I really appreciate your response by the way. You two had taught me that I don't know, well, jack, about OMM. It doesn't make me want to learn it really, but it did teach me that I should not speak ill of something I don't know.


As I said in my original post, I didn't mean to make a post bashing DO, or to start a flame war. I was merely listing my personal reasons for not wanting to apply to a DO. In the end, I just feel like there is no compelling reason for me to go DO instead of MD.

You've started no flame war so no worries. It'd take a whole lot more to do so in these forums. I do think you were fairly forthcoming with your perspective, albeit ignorant in a true pre-med sense.

There's simply some reasoning going on here: I'm gambling that there's not much thought going into your statements and your insecurity is apparent so there's no real need to corroborate. I'd gamble on your lack of maturity and quick judgement of people as the crux of the issue here. As a matter of fact, the majority here on SDN have strong MCATs and GPAs but there simply aren't enough seats to go around. I also don't hold anything against those who are working hard to achieve what they desire irregardless of the hand they were dealt. In fact, it's been my experience that those people have more character in general. But I digress...

If you want to practice medicine, both avenues offer the same. There are no "branches" as you refer. Physicians are physicians and there is an intermingling post-med school that would make them indiscernible for all practical purposes. However, DOs receive additional musculoskeletal training for OMM and some choose to utilize such modalities. Allopathic schools tend to do more research but that is now being put into place by osteopathic schools with new funding and university associations. The playing field is more level and will be great for those that have the foresight.

Additionally, a high MCAT does not guarantee anyone acceptance to any medical school. Adcoms look at much more than just the numbers because numbers alone are not indicative of the "caliber of person" or the potential of a student at a particular school.

If there's no compelling reason for you to practice medicine as a DO/MD, then don't. In fact, I'd take the advice of your parents and go for something different. The last thing medicine needs is another haughty physician trying to effectively treat patients. 👍

 

[Parthenon89]

my premed advisor told me that DOs are more concentrated on subspecialties such as fam practice, peds, and primary care, there are DO ortho surgeons and neurosurgeons, however an allopathic physicians is preffered for those type of specialties, alot of old-school physicians like to magnify the divide between DO and MD, however the curriculum is the same

to say that DO's are just there cuz they couldnt cut it as MD's isnt fair, and to say that MD's are there just for the title and to fill their ego, is also not fair

it all depends upon what specialty you'd want to wind up with and about what is really for you.

i personally wish to pursue an MD, but i'm just trying to be objective and fair in this post

OH and btw, for anyone who thinks that any MD school beats a DO.... the D.O. program in UMDNJ-RW Johnson (or the one in camden i'm not quite sure) is better than the MD Program in UMNDJ-Newark, just FYI

 

[Nate]

DOs know how to use google

 

[bth7]

DOs know how to use google

Funny. But What exactly do you mean?

 

[sexyman]

maybe he means type in DO in google before posting?

 

[gasapple]

DOs know how to use google

LOL

 

[Tanner82]

DOs know how to use google

best post in this thread

 

[Pansit]

Wikipedia: Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic medicine

recent thread discussing this topic: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=429376

bth

DOs know how to use google

actually DO's use Yahoo, although some use the outdated lycos search engine and some use alta vista

 

[Bacchus]

actually DO's use Yahoo, although some use the outdated lycos search engine and some use alta vista

Its all about being archaeic. They also tell their patients to down a bottle of Echinacea and drink voluminous amounts of orange juice for its vitamin c content just to avoid writing those things called prescriptions for modern drugs.

 

[Northerner]

Reasons why I want to be a D.O. over an M.D.

1. I don't suffer from a low GPA
2. I'm assuming my MCAT, soon to be scored, will be around a 32 or so
3. I'm applying to both MD and DO just to prove I can get into both but will choose DO anyways
4. Their DO symbol is the rod of Ascelpius vs MD's caduceus.
5. I like to be different
6. DO schools are nearer to me
7. I like vowels
8. I like to prove people wrong so by being a better physician, coming from a DO background, to an MD physician.
9. Less competition in school for higher rankings.
10. Somewhat better pick up line than an MD requiring more talking.😎

I got into many schools for undergraduate including UCLA, USC, Berkeley, JHU, etc but chose UCSD so I can have a higher GPA while still receiving a good education.

It's all about compromise. 😀

This is so adorably idiotic I'm thinking of sending you a teddy bear to commemorate it.

You've got to love a little Pre-Osteo nonsense....

 

[JaggerPlate]

Reasons why I want to be a D.O. over an M.D.

1. I don't suffer from a low GPA
2. I'm assuming my MCAT, soon to be scored, will be around a 32 or so
3. I'm applying to both MD and DO just to prove I can get into both but will choose DO anyways
4. Their DO symbol is the rod of Ascelpius vs MD's caduceus.
5. I like to be different
6. DO schools are nearer to me
7. I like vowels
8. I like to prove people wrong so by being a better physician, coming from a DO background, to an MD physician.
9. Less competition in school for higher rankings.
10. Somewhat better pick up line than an MD requiring more talking.😎

I got into many schools for undergraduate including UCLA, USC, Berkeley, JHU, etc but chose UCSD so I can have a higher GPA while still receiving a good education.

It's all about compromise. 😀

ROFL. That is the main reason for many of us, I know that for a fact. Hahahah #7 really made my day.

 

[ryan483]

In all honesty, and this is not one of those DO versus MD flame wars.

I seriously considered DO because I have relatively low GPA (3.5), but at the end of the day, I selected to only apply to MD schools for the following reasons:

1) I do not believe in most of the DO-specific techniques. Rearrange skull bones to cure diseases? I just cannot bring myself to believe in that, and would not want to spend time learning how to do it.

2) MD schools typically have higher calibered students. I just think I will meet more people with similar personality and lifestyle at an MD school.

3) I don't want to have to explain what a DO is to all my Asian relatives (shallow reason, I know).

4) I am not interested in primary care. While you can match into specialties from a DO school, the DO philosophy favors primary care.


I guess at the end of the day, I felt that if I were to apply DO, I would only be using it as a backup. I lacked real reasons to WANT to be a DO instead of an MD. I just felt that my attitudes were unfair to those who actually want to be a DO, and I thought not applying would allow those who truly prefer a DO degree to have a better chance of getting in.

You are a shallow person; I'm glad you made everyone aware of that.

 

[RySerr21]

You are a shallow person; I'm glad you made everyone aware of that.

is this seriously necessary? the last post in this hread was in august.

the title of the thread alone will start a flame war as i'm sure alreayd happend (i havent read the rest of the thread).

as far as the person that you commented to, his/her reasons may have been shallow, but at least he/she realized that DO was not the right path and chose to stick with MD instead. you don't see that very often, most people will choose the "easier" road and make up some bullsh*t reason for wanting to be a DO.

 

[prionsRbad]

Yeah, let's just let this thread die, folks. Let me be the last to post in it.

Resist the urge!!!!!! You can do it!!!

 

[t-funk]

Yeah, let's just let this thread die, folks. Let me be the last to post in it.

Resist the urge!!!!!! You can do it!!!

Sorry to post after you Prions but if you look at this dude's post history today, it looks like he's lost it or something. I think someone had a bad week or something. This thread is really not worth anyone's time.

 

[Willh]

Hey everyone. How are we all doing? 🙂