What's the Failure Rate of Your School

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I'm a P2 student and we've lost a dozen students from our class already.

My school holds you back an entire year if you fail one class. Is this common at your school?

 

[bankai123]

I'm a P2 student and we've lost a dozen students from our class already.

My school holds you back an entire year if you fail one class. Is this common at your school?

No, it is not common. The graduation rate for pharmacy schools is usually around >96%, http://www.aacp.org/Docs/MainNavigation/InstitutionalData/6676_2005-03.pdf.
Let me ask you this question first. Do you go to a 0-6 school? If you do, these schools tend to have a higher attrition rate. However, judging from the fact you're a P2, I think that everyone in your class is smart + diligent. Let me ask you another question, do you go to a 3-year accelerated program? Because those schools tend to have a higher attrition rate. However, from the school website and the admissions counselors, 3-year schools like LECOM, MWU-Glendale, and USN have graduation rate like around 95% or more (which is still high). However, schools that have 3-year program + 0-6, have a very low graduation rate. Albany CoP, the school I go to, have a graduation rate of 68% over the past 5 years, and I heard MCPHS - Boston is even worse than that.

 

[njac]

not high enough.

 

[genesis09]

In my year, we started with 162 and now have 157.

 

[firefighter9015]

my class started out with 132 and we lost 3, however, only 1 was due to failure, and she will graduate a year behind us. The other 2 had to leave due to personal and family reasons. We also have 3 from the year ahead of us, and again only 1 was due to failure, the other 2 were personal issues that required them to take a year off.

To answer the questions about failing a class and having to repeat a whole year, my school will make you retake the class, and it depends on what it is if you fall back a year. Certain classes are required that you pass them before you can move on in the course sequence, however, most people that fall back a year use that year to retake the classes they need and to finish electives so that they do not have to worry about them once they have a full pharmacy load.

 

[thelonius]

Let's see. We started out with 204 I believe. First year, lost about 5. After first semester of 2nd year we lost 19. I believe 18/19 actually "failed" and did not voluntarily withdraw. Of the currently remaining~180, 35 of those scored a "D" or "F" on our first Therapeutics test. You have to average 70 or better b/w the first and second tests to pass. (2D's or 1 F = held back a year). My guess is that 10-20 additional students will have to repeat the second year. I know it's supposed to be tough, but I think we have too many young teachers at our school that feel like they have to lay down the law. God, the minutia! We spend more time on pathophysiology and diagnosis than drug therapy.

 

[Rxbound]

My class had 120 when we entered, plus 16 that had to repeat their first year. We now have 116, and 20 people from my original class had to repeat their first year. One of the pharmacists I work with suggested that it was because they were letting too many poeple in with GPAs below 3.2. I told her I had a 3.1 when I got in, and I am doing just fine. Really funny to watch her backpeddle, though.
With this said, I have no idea what is going wrong. These people are smart ( our entering GPA average was 3.57, I think) but something is taking them out when they get here. Who knows.

 

[Moxxie]

Out of the original 60 that started our P1 year, we've lost 4. Two after the P1 first semester (one due to grades, the other changed her mind). One after the P2 fall semester (due to grades), and one just recently, also due to grades, but there were some severe health issues involved (possible lung cancer - ).

Of the 3 that we lost due to grades, the first is now a P1 again and is doing great. The second has to retake a couple of classes this semester and next and will be able to join up with the current P1 class as a P2 next year if she does OK. For the third, we're all just praying that his surgery goes OK and that the mass they found in his lung is benign 🙁.

The current P1 class lost 3 of their 60 students by the end of the first semester. One because he freaked out when he failed the very first exam of his pharmacy school career, the second because he changed his mind halfway through the semester, and the third due to an F and a couple of D's.

However, it's actually unusual to see this many students per year dropping out or having to repeat. ISU really tries to accept 60 students and graduate 60 students.

 

[ethyl]

At other universities, has there been any correlation with F's and years completed for undergrad? I'm wondering if those with bachelors are less likely to repeat a year.

 

[Jbuprepharm]

we had 89 to start, and we now have about 84 or 85 that will graduate on time with us, but with some of our pharmacotherapies this semester that number may decrease

 

[patmcd]

At other universities, has there been any correlation with F's and years completed for undergrad? I'm wondering if those with bachelors are less likely to repeat a year.

That is an interesting question. I wonder if there is any data on that.

 

[cycloketocaine]

Here's ours.......
Our class had 140 start.....
we had 7 suspensions....and 7 dismissals.

And, I expect that we'll have more after this semester.
Oh, and we're p1's

 

[Rumplestiltazepam]

We lost 3 students after the first term and we are down to 87 now. I do not think any of them for failing, they just decided pharmacy wasn't for them.

 

[Asrai]

We started with 108, we're currently down to 107 (soon to be 106). After the first semester, 2 people failed a course. One dropped out of pharmacy school completely, the other will be retaking the course next year, and will graduate a year behind us. Previous classes have had a similar rate, or had no dropouts/losses at all. They're really into keeping all the students they have here.

 

[yazzman]

We lost 3 students after the first term and we are down to 87 now. I do not think any of them for failing, they just decided pharmacy wasn't for them.

Your telling me people failed around you and none of that smart juices never rubbed off...I thought your code name was F-pilli...

 

[eightball]

Let me see, started with 143, now we have 147. Its a tough program

 

[cdpiano27]

Isn't a higher failure rate show the school is more prestigious? What is wrong with only having 50% of the class graduate? I think if less people can get through it, it makes the degree that much more valuable.

For example, in PhD, the University of Wisconsin PhD statistics program only allows about 30% of the incoming students to pass the PHD qualifier. That is it.

The philosophy is that the PhD "means" more if only a minority can pass.

So, maybe Albany COP and MCPHS have their point in doing what they are doing.

 

[cdpiano27]

By the way, how high is the NAPLEX pass rate for MCPHS and ACP for those students who get through? Is it higher than the other schools?

 

[bankai123]

By the way, how high is the NAPLEX pass rate for MCPHS and ACP for those students who get through? Is it higher than the other schools?

I think almost everyone in those two schools pass. However, I think that's how most schools are like

 

[bankai123]

Isn't a higher failure rate show the school is more prestigious? What is wrong with only having 50% of the class graduate? I think if less people can get through it, it makes the degree that much more valuable.

For example, in PhD, the University of Wisconsin PhD statistics program only allows about 30% of the incoming students to pass the PHD qualifier. That is it.

The philosophy is that the PhD "means" more if only a minority can pass.

So, maybe Albany COP and MCPHS have their point in doing what they are doing.

There's no such thing as "prestigious" in pharmacy school. Your career future will be the same no matter which school you graduate from

 

[shikamaru]

By the way, how high is the NAPLEX pass rate for MCPHS and ACP for those students who get through? Is it higher than the other schools?

I don't know about ACP or the Boston campus for MCPHS, but according to current students at MCPHS-Worcester, the NAPLEX pass rate for the Class of 2007 was 97%.

 

[monsterbrain]

Isn't a higher failure rate show the school is more prestigious? What is wrong with only having 50% of the class graduate? I think if less people can get through it, it makes the degree that much more valuable.

For example, in PhD, the University of Wisconsin PhD statistics program only allows about 30% of the incoming students to pass the PHD qualifier. That is it.

The philosophy is that the PhD "means" more if only a minority can pass.

So, maybe Albany COP and MCPHS have their point in doing what they are doing.

Why would schools want to do this? If only 50% of a class graduates that is a lot of money the school is not receiving each year in tuition. Isn't this the reason pharmacy schools are so particular to begin with? They don't want to lose $ on students who either can't handle it or decide pharmacy is not for them.

 

[genesis09]

According to NABP, ACP's 2006 NAPLEX pass rate was 96.6% and their 2002-2006 average was 96.7%. For MCPHS-Boston, the 2006 NAPLEX pass rate was 85.5% and their 2002-2006 average was 86.1%. For MCPHS-Worchester, the 2006 NAPLEX pass rate was 90.4%, and their 2002-2006 average was 89.7%.
http://www.nabp.net/

 

[evilolive]

Compound those rates on top of the attrition rates of the programs, and that's quite a few people.

 

[Lurkerkat]

Why not only accept students who are capable of successfully completing the curriculum in the first place rather than letting in a bunch of people and hoping a few might succeed? It's not like pharmacy schools are running short on candidates and can't afford to be selective.

A school with a high failure rate indicates either the admissions department is absolutely miserable at their job and don't know what to look for when it comes to a successful student or there's something seriously wrong with the curriculum where it's might just be poorly executed or set up purposely for people to fail.

The latter is especially f***ed up considering the amount of debt people are putting themselves in. Sure there's a risk with taking out loans but if there was a 50% chance that I won't be graduating with my PharmD... like hell am I going to take on those odds.

 

[evilolive]

There's a lot of money to be gained from 0-6 programs. That's a lot of tuition dollars.

 

[pmp85]

According to NABP, ACP's 2006 NAPLEX pass rate was 96.6% and their 2002-2006 average was 96.7%. For MCPHS-Boston, the 2006 NAPLEX pass rate was 85.5% and their 2002-2006 average was 86.1%. For MCPHS-Worchester, the 2006 NAPLEX pass rate was 90.4%, and their 2002-2006 average was 89.7%.
http://www.nabp.net/

FYI: The 2007 NAPLEX pass rate was 97+% for MCPHS-Worcester. The official statistics were shown to our P1 class during a kinetics lecture.

 

[psychoandy]

I'm a P2 student and we've lost a dozen students from our class already.

My school holds you back an entire year if you fail one class. Is this common at your school?

I'm pretty sure almost all schools hold you back if you fail 1 class, since most pharm schools are pretty scheduled and you can't really pick and choose like in undergrad.

I would say the attrition rate at my school is about 10% each year from P1-P3...not really P4 since thats the home stretch and not many people fail rotations. This doesn't necessarily mean someone got kicked out, it just means they got held back because they failed 1 or more classes or had to take a medical leave or etc.

edit: hahahahaha who the heck thought that MCP boston had a good pass rate, that's ridiculous

 

[bankai123]

Why not only accept students who are capable of successfully completing the curriculum in the first place rather than letting in a bunch of people and hoping a few might succeed? It's not like pharmacy schools are running short on candidates and can't afford to be selective.

A school with a high failure rate indicates either the admissions department is absolutely miserable at their job and don't know what to look for when it comes to a successful student or there's something seriously wrong with the curriculum where it's might just be poorly executed or set up purposely for people to fail.

The latter is especially f***ed up considering the amount of debt people are putting themselves in. Sure there's a risk with taking out loans but if there was a 50% chance that I won't be graduating with my PharmD... like hell am I going to take on those odds.

A few schools, especially private schools, purposely make the curriculum hard to fail out people and that is true. They usually take in more students than are supposed to graduate with. Remember that private schools are not only a place for education but also for business😉

 

[PharmaTope]

A few schools, especially private schools, purposely make the curriculum hard to fail out people and that is true. They usually take in more students than are supposed to graduate with. Remember that private schools are not only a place for education but also for business😉

that is also the same for state schools with limited government funding.

 

[firefighter9015]

At other universities, has there been any correlation with F's and years completed for undergrad? I'm wondering if those with bachelors are less likely to repeat a year.

At my school, it is actually those who have bachelors that have been held back due to grades. The whole like 20% of us who do not have degrees tend to be toward the higher end of our class.

 

[greatdeals225]

FYI: The 2007 NAPLEX pass rate was 97+% for MCPHS-Worcester. The official statistics were shown to our P1 class during a kinetics lecture.

Yup, I witnessed that too.. and our passing rate is higher than state and national average.... if I'm not mistaken.. pmp you can comfirm that

 

[pmp85]

Yup, I witnessed that too.. and our passing rate is higher than state and national average.... if I'm not mistaken.. pmp you can comfirm that

Agreed. However, I cannot agree to MCP-Boston being the same. Seems as though you'd be comparing apples and oranges (two totally different flavors when comparing MCP-Worcester and MCP-Boston).

 

[Jbuprepharm]

we just had 6 fail GI/Hepatic, so that's 6 fewer that will graduate on time. I think we're up to 8-10 who will be a year late.

 

[tomtom101]

In general from what I have read, most schools have good rates. Our class in a 6 year program started with 150 and is down to 88 the semester before we progress into the P1 year. I suspect the number will drop furthur.

 

[Espere]

Hi! I'm a student in Nebraska, at Creighton.
Interesting factoid: Creighton's (private school) tuition is less than UCDenver's in-state tuition. We have a pass rate somewhere in the percent range of the 90's. (In other words, please don't subscribe to stereotypes).
From the research I did before applying, Western University (So.Cal) has a 98% NAPLEX pass rate (private school... tuition there was 'sticker shock', but then, what CA school isn't like that?), as does U.Wyoming (...one of the interns (final year) at the time related that only 2 dropped out of his class).
Just FYI.
Thanks! 🙂

 

[CoolBuddy06]

In my class of 2010, we lost 16 in 1st semester, about 6 in 2nd. Aroun 5 in 1st semester yr 2 and a long list of those who will gradute in later years. It a little rougher here.

 

[bacillus1]

Yeah if you fail the first part of a 2-course series (for example, physiology I, pharmacology I), the second part isn't offered in the spring, hence you're held back a year. I don't know about the 2nd part of the course, but I would assume that they'd be offered in the summer (though I wouldn't be surprised if it's not). We fail about 5% P3, and about another percent or so every semester before that, so our failure rate is about 10%?

(6 year program)

 

[BavarianMWE46]

At my school, it is actually those who have bachelors that have been held back due to grades. The whole like 20% of us who do not have degrees tend to be toward the higher end of our class.

I have a feeling that I am going to be too tired and old to study like I did in undergrad when I get to pharmacy school. I have already been in school as long as some people who are about to go on rotations, and I haven't even started pharmacy school. 0+6 kids have it made.

 

[DrWrong]

Why would schools want to do this? If only 50% of a class graduates that is a lot of money the school is not receiving each year in tuition. Isn't this the reason pharmacy schools are so particular to begin with? They don't want to lose $ on students who either can't handle it or decide pharmacy is not for them.

That's why the teachers should pass them up until the spring semester of 5th year. Then they fail them. Let them come back next year and fail them again (only if they actually fail themselves). By doing this they make money and give the 5th year students a little whimper of hope that they will make it to rotations.

Of course I'm just kidding. But the way I see it, No pharmacy program should have over an 80% passage rate OR CURVES! Once I graduate and do what I want to do with my degree I'll be sure that there are NO CURVES in my class😀.

 

[DrWrong]

sorry, I didn't add information about FAMU.


My class started with 152 people and right now I think we have about 152 still. Some people dropped, but at the same time we have people who failed last year in the class. FAMU is quite lenient about offering classes to those students who fail. For example, although pharmaceutics is a 2 semester class they offer pharmaceutics one in the spring along with pharmaceutics 2 and also offer pharmaceutics 2 in the summer for those who failed pharmaceutics 1, if that makes sense.

I think the main reason for doing so is the fact that our class is in the midst of cirriculum changes and if someone were to get left behind because of one class they would be in a world of hurt.

 

[PharmDstudent]

That's why the teachers should pass them up until the spring semester of 5th year. Then they fail them. Let them come back next year and fail them again (only if they actually fail themselves). By doing this they make money and give the 5th year students a little whimper of hope that they will make it to rotations.

Of course I'm just kidding. But the way I see it, No pharmacy program should have over an 80% passage rate OR CURVES! Once I graduate and do what I want to do with my degree I'll be sure that there are NO CURVES in my class😀.

Class of 2012!

Just wait until you get to Pharmacology and Therapeutics...

 

[charfdorn]

I have a feeling that I am going to be too tired and old to study like I did in undergrad when I get to pharmacy school. I have already been in school as long as some people who are about to go on rotations, and I haven't even started pharmacy school. 0+6 kids have it made.

Folks like you and I need to study smarter. Review that material every day so you don't have to learn it all the day before the exam. It isn't fun.

People I graduated high school with are pharmacists already; I'll be a P1 in the fall. I'm only 26 but that feels old right now since I'll be 30 when I graduate.

 

[DrWrong]

Class of 2012!

Just wait until you get to Pharmacology and Therapeutics...

Hey, the harder the better 👍

 

[aboveliquidice]

Hey, the harder the better 👍

That's what she said... /joking

We started with 86 - Lost one, gained two. We are likely to lose two to five for end of year week.

There is no incentive for private schools to fail anyone out - They would much rather collect your tuition each year.

 

[GreyFox2002]

I'm a P2 at Wayne State. Historically, the failure rate here is very high. We started with 93. We only had 1 drop out P1 year. P2 year 1st semester, 2 dropped out completely, but another 12 failed and are being held back a year. So we lost almost 20 % of our class the first 3 semesters. We go by the 7 week module format, and historically after the gauntlet of the Pharmacology and Immuno/Hematology P2-1st semester, we lose 2-3 people a module up until rotations begin. P2-1st semester is partly to blame because of an old school hardcore professor who shares no sympathy for any student failing. I've also heard about students failing rotations here, which generally doesn't happen.

The recently class of 2008 here started with around 80 and graduated only 50.

From what I understand, Wayne has one of the highest NAPLEX pass rates. One graduate from here last year scored the highest overall score in the nation. Our average incoming GPA is over 3.6 as well so its not because of them letting in anyone. It is a really difficult program and I'm glad its challenging.

 

[PharmDstudent]

That's what she said... /joking

Ha! Oh yeah? You think you're so smart, huh? Don't even try me!

 

[Carboxide]

I bet a lot of students who fail are those who retook a lot of classes in their pre-reqs. Look in the pre-pharm forum and there are TONS of people saying, "I got a D in organic and retook...got a C- in calculus and retook..." Many of these are people who either don't know how to study or simply aren't smart enough to understand the material on the first try. [Not all; many.] I don't think they should do grade replacement.

 

[genesis09]

I'm a P2 at Wayne State. Historically, the failure rate here is very high. We started with 93. We only had 1 drop out P1 year. P2 year 1st semester, 2 dropped out completely, but another 12 failed and are being held back a year. So we lost almost 20 % of our class the first 3 semesters. We go by the 7 week module format, and historically after the gauntlet of the Pharmacology and Immuno/Hematology P2-1st semester, we lose 2-3 people a module up until rotations begin. P2-1st semester is partly to blame because of an old school hardcore professor who shares no sympathy for any student failing. I've also heard about students failing rotations here, which generally doesn't happen.

The recently class of 2008 here started with around 80 and graduated only 50.

From what I understand, Wayne has one of the highest NAPLEX pass rates. One graduate from here last year scored the highest overall score in the nation. Our average incoming GPA is over 3.6 as well so its not because of them letting in anyone. It is a really difficult program and I'm glad its challenging.

That is a very high drop out rate. It is concerning in the eyes of the ACPE. Schools have been placed on probation for too high of a drop out rate.

 

[Praziquantel86]

My school just implemented a "Double-C" rule for my class. Get a C or less in two sections of a sequence course, you have to repeat the entire sequence (it was formerly a "Double-D" rule).

The end of the first full year with this policy in place is coming up, I think it'll be pretty interesting to see how it affects everyone.