What's the point in doing a fellowship?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

EMCrazy

Membership Revoked
Removed
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Can someone please explain to me the point in doing an EM fellowship. As far as I know, you can make more money just going into a community setting after 3 years and even if you did academics it's not like ALL you do is Tox or ALL you do is ultrasound. So if the only reason to do a fellowship is to increase your chances of getting a position at an academic center that just sounds kind of silly to me. I mean that extra year or two is a waste. Please help me understand the logic.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Can someone please explain to me the point in doing an EM fellowship. As far as I know, you can make more money just going into a community setting after 3 years and even if you did academics it's not like ALL you do is Tox or ALL you do is ultrasound. So if the only reason to do a fellowship is to increase your chances of getting a position at an academic center that just sounds kind of silly to me. I mean that extra year or two is a waste. Please help me understand the logic.

Reason number 1: You are fascinated by Tox, Ultrasound, EMS, critical care, etc
Reason number 2: It is becoming more and more difficult to get an academic job without a Niche - Emergency Medicine departments want someone who can publish, bring specialized knowledge for teaching and clinical care, and (probably most importantly) get funding for research - just like other academic departments.

If you want to practice in the community, I can't imagine why you would be interested in fellowship beyond reason number one, but reason number two is reason enough for those interested in academics (in my opinion).
 
Even though I haven't done residency or completed med school yet, I am considering doing a tox fellowship because of #1 only.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I agree with UE. I'm applying for EM residency right now and am interested in pursuing an EM Ultrasound Fellowship afterwards. Many places have EM attendings that have completed a U/S fellowship serve as U/S Clinical Coordinator for the EM residents during their U/S elective. This gives you as the attending an opportunity to teach (if that's something that you fancy) and more $$. Still I think that many EM graduates seek a fellowship more because they have an affinity for that specialty (be it EMS, Peds EM, tox, u/s, sports medicine, CC, etc.) and would like to make it a significant part of their practice.
 
You are absolutely, 100% correct. If you are financially oriented (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this), and you do not share a geeky passion that possess you to postpone money or to become a temporary slave to that love, you should absolutely not do a fellowship.

Several reasons:

1. as stated, you have a deep love of something cerebral that you can geek out about and get a year where you can dedicate yourself to this love. (you will never ever get this kind of 'protected' time that you get in residency or as an attending, and what has taken someone without fellowship but the love 10 years to develop, you could have developed in a year)

2. Depending on what you do your fellowship in, you could potentially make way more money than your colleagues. Not physically in the ED but through various other venues: speaking, improved outcomes on tenure tracks, consulting, business, etc.

3. As stated, the academic world of EM is getting tighter. Even worse, the academic tracks for professorship (ie money, prestige, protected time etc) associated with universities is getting phenomenally more difficult. Fellowships may make it easier to manuever through these tracks. Not just because you checked off that box of extended training (there is that) but because that protected time you had in fellowship allowed you to PRODUCE which is important in promotion and tenure committees.

4. did someone mention you love an area? That is ultimately the true essence of fellowship. Fellowship is HARD. its not just a delay in money by one to two years. You will work harder than you ever worked in medical school or residency. If you don't love what you are doing, you will hate your fellowship. Ultimately, fellowship is a labor of love. Period.
 
Current subspecialties in EM as compared with IM and Surgery are still in their infancy and really are not comparable. For now, I prefer to call many of them interests rather than actual subspecialties. Although many foresee the day when EM is like IM with multiple practicing subspecialties, this realization may be burdensome and shortsighted. Legitimate subspecialty development is market and interest driven. There often may be overlap with other established medical areas bringing boundary complications and credentialing issues. The fight to establish EM-Critical Care is reflective of this. However, legitimacy can be achieved without following the IM & Surgical subspecialty model.

SAEM has a full list of fellowships. Be cautious and remember though many of these do not lead to any specific recognized certification. Furthermore, for the recognized certified subspecialties (toxicology, hyperbaric medicine, sports medicine, and pediatric medicine) there are many questions about scope, utility, and boundary complications that exist. For example, consider pediatric medicine. By providing an EM grad an opportunity for pediatric subspecialty training, are we in essence saying EM does not qualify us to practice pediatrics? I could have sworn we were already trained in pediatrics. Furthermore, reimbursement for pediatric EM is substantially less. This begs the reasoning of why any EM grad who is already trained to handle pediatrics would want to sacrifice more time and settle for less money. This is also the reason many pediatric trained - pediatric EPs are now seizing the field. Sports medicine also has many issues too. A Derogatory statement such as "Orthopedic Scut monkey," seems to display the sentiment best. Toxicology and Hyperbaric medicine are more established but also have a few issues as well.
If we use IM and Surgical subspecialties as the gold standard for defining what a subspecialty is all about then we will always get a failing grade. "Interests" is the key word. With the breath and depth of EM, many interests can be inexplicably tied and associated with the field. It doesn't mean we need a fellowship for each. The simple layman only recognizes the diversity of interests based on an associated established fellowship that represents it. The naive, short sighted, & money minded layman erroneously assumes fellowship = more money. This is not true.

Of the newer fellowships recently established, Cincinnati has a Neurocritical care fellowship which may lead to neurocritical care certification. Stanford and Virginia has a cardiovascular fellowship. This may lead to subspecialty trained EPs to handle cardiac obs units and routine stress testing. A minority of opinions exist that EPs should even one day have cardiac catherization privileges. Many newer areas that have already caught on and are likely here to stay include Disaster Medicine for obvious reasons, Ultrasound etc. Fellowships such as Geriatric medicine, Legal medicine, International medicine, have just arrived. It seems plausible that further fellowship development in the field of Observation medicine, +/- Urgent care medicine, Palliative medicine - all for the EM grad may also soon arrive. The horizon is unpredictable, but all face an uphill battle in proving legitimacy if we hold to the IM and Surgical gold standard of what a subspecialty ought to be. The solution is change the way we think and view fellowships. An "interest" fellowship if perceived correctly can be well-respected, needed, and may even have monetary potential. Yes, many current EM fellowships are interest driven and hobby like. Perhaps we should change the name of a EM fellowships to "Hobby year(s)." Or a more a sarcastic view might be to call it "The year of interest - because your program failed to develop it." But even this argument is being rectified as programs are now catching on. Many EM-4 programs are now considering offering 4th year subspecialty tracks. Overall, not a bad idea. This relieves the burden of establishing "intersts/hobby fellowships." For the EM-3 programs watch out, you may dissapear.

For now, the future of EM with regards to our expanding boundaries are in a state of flux and intrigue. For those who have the drive to do a fellowship, its boundaries, scope of practice, and questionable utility will be questions to ask yourself before you start. You can assume little monetary gain unless you are an enigma. Interest and passion is what should drive you. Overall, be sure you understand EM fellowships/subspecialties are not like IM & Subsurgical specialties.
 
So if the only reason to do a fellowship is to increase your chances of getting a position at an academic center that just sounds kind of silly to me. I mean that extra year or two is a waste. Please help me understand the logic.

There are several reasons. The first is likely to be just plain old interest in the subject. A fellowship gets you dedicated time, in a structured environment to pursue that interest. It may also get you dedicated research time. I've got another year and half, where 85+ percent of what I do, is what I think is one of the coolest aspects of medicine and they pay me for it. Where else are you going to find a deal like that?

Do not underestimate the allure of academics. It is not as easy as you might think to fall into an academic job. The markets are competitive. You have to bring something with you that is more than just board certification. Just being a good doc isn't enough and making the switch from community emergency medicine to academics isn't easy. Especially if you go to a 3 year program, a fellowship helps to solidify that "edge" when it comes to hiring.

There is the allure of being a sub-specialist. I am the definitive opinion within my field at my hospital. I am the expert and not just that "ER guy down there." Maybe that is just ego talking, but it makes a big difference when I'm calling consults that my consultant has consulted me in the past.

Finally, I think a fellowship makes you better at your primary specialty.

If your goal is just the paycheck, then community EM is the way to go. Anytime, I spend not doing EM will translate into a pay cut. However, I like what I do enough that I'm willing to make a money for interest trade. Yeah, I won't be as wealthy as I could be, but I'll be happier and more academically satisfied.
 
Many EM-4 programs are now offering 4th year subspecialty tracks. Overall, not a bad idea. This relieves the burden of establishing "intersts/hobby fellowships." For the EM-3 programs watch out, you may dissapear.

Seeing as how the majority of allopathic EM residencies are 1-3, perhaps your prediction of them disappearing is a bit drastic.

Also, I believe the retooling of 2-4 and 1-4 programs is a direct response to decreased applications to those programs. The possibility of not matching into a prelim or TY in the same area as the 2-4 program made me rank those programs lower, and quite a few of the 2-4's switched to 1-4 in response to these concerns. The programs already in the 1-4 format produced interest or mini-fellowship tracks to in some way justify the extra year.

To those in four year programs please don't kill me for using the word 'justify'. I can't think of a better word right now, but it's no slam on the 4 year programs.

In fact, had I known of a 4 year program that essentially rolled in a fellowship, I would have been mighty interested in that.

As an aside, my program requires that we decide on a 'scholarly' track - EMS, US, academics, public health, research, and some of our grand rounds time is devoted to those interests. For example, my track is US, so I'm required to spend all my elective time doing US-related things and sit for the RDMS exam at the end of residency. It's nowhere near the level of fellowship time, but I'm seriously considering pursuing a 'formal' US fellowship as well.

Having one rolled into a program would have made it a no-brainer for me.
 
Let me qualify my statement better. Many EM 1-4 programs are CONSIDERING offering 4th year subspecialty tracks. For example, John Hopkins recently switched from a 1-3 to a 1-4 to encourage interests in different subspecialties. Keep in mind, their goal is to produce academic EPs. Technically the 4th year is like a subspecialty first year equivalent. Advance placement they call it.
Check it out. You can also go to their website.

We are pleased to announce that the Johns Hopkins Emergency Medicine Residency will become a 4-year program starting in July of 2008. The new program format will allow for significant augmentation of academic and specialized experiences increasingly required by the maturity and development of our specialty. The current 3-year program will not be affected as the first two years of the 4-year program are substantially the same and thus do not affect those in current program at any point of their training. In fact, the transition is so smooth, that those currently in the 3-year program can convert to the new format seamlessly should they wish.

The Johns Hopkins 4-year program is unique in the country in that the first year of a traditional subspecialty fellowship, termed Focused Advanced Specialty Training (FAST) will be incorporated into the program. Many of these programs include the ability to obtain a degree (e.g. MPH, MHSc, MBHSc, MBA) while in the residency program. Others allow work toward doctorate degrees. Since many fellowships are two years in duration, a further major advantage to the new program is that the FAST chosen will be considered equivalent to the completion of an entire year of a fellowship (similar to advanced placement) at Johns Hopkins. Thus, further subspecialty fellowship training in the area chosen, should it be pursued, would be one year less than the standard program.

"Currently Johns Hopkins has developed 11 formally approved fellowships and thus, 11 FAST programs (Chief Resident/Assistant Chief of Service, Pediatric EM, Observation Medicine, Critical Care, Research, EMS, Tactical EM, Disaster EM, International EM, Ultrasound, Administration, Legal Medicine). A 12th fellowship in Toxicology is being developed this year. The research track itself has multiple tracks (translational research in infectious diseases; disaster research, health services research, patient safety ED operations). Declaration of the FAST program chosen by individual residents can occur as late as the 3rd year, allowing each resident to fully explore the possibilities before committing to an area of focus.


I agree, not many residencies are making a big hoopla about incorporating tracks like Hopkins. But many are starting to do so quietly to meet the growing interests and breadth of EM.
 
I definitely agree with the statement that fellowships are market driven. People in other specialties usually go into subspecialties like GI because they make tons of bank and they like looking at people's colons for some reason. In ER, it's different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but toxicologists don't make bank. In my limited understanding, poison centers are public services, funded by the government. The only way that toxicologists can get paid for their professional opinion is by doing a bedside consult, physically examining the patient and writing a consult note. Some internal medicine services hate toxicologists and refuse to get consults because they think that they know as much as a toxicologist. Most the time, they are probably right since you can sum up toxicology 90% of the time by... err on the side of giving them charcoal, support their airway, benzos for seizures, bicarb for prolonged QRS, Mg for prolonged QT, and when in doubt, give them NAC, or Fomepizole. Obviously, toxicology is way more complicated than that, but the majority of overdoses are weak cries for help and don't need anything besides the psychological attention that they crave. So, to be a toxicologist, you'd better love toxicology even though it is not going to make you more rich than your fellow ER doc. You'd also be ready to have some services not think much of your professional opinion and ignore it a some of the time (most of my tox rotation was spent hounding nurses over the phone about Mg levels and QTc measurements and they would get really annoyed). It is different than say cardiology, or neurosurgery. Most the time, when you want those specialties, you are groveling at their feet pleading that they come down and whisk this patient off to surgery or to the cath lab and out of your hands.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hope I'm not speaking out of turn here seeing how I haven't even started my EM residency, but isn't EM a young specialty? I'm sure years ago physicians didn't think an EM residency was necessary because they could always work in the ED while specializing in something else. In ten years will US become the standard of care and those lacking skills in it find themselves at a distinct disadvantage? I know in Florida there's a a movement underway to require that all EMS directors be fellowship trained (I know this is a far fetched at this moment in time) but whose to say what the enviornment will be like 10 years from now. Medicine as a whole is becoming subspecialized, so why would EM be any different?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I can tell you why I did a fellowship:

1. I really like ultrasound.

2. I wasn't sure I wanted to do academics. A fellowship is a nice chance to find out without making anyone mad at the end if you decide it's not for you. Academic practice as an attending is a lot different than the experience you have as a resident.

3. If I wanted to do academics it would be a nice niche to have. More and more programs are requiring faculty to bring something more to the table than a warm body. I suspect that in the next 5 years fellowship training/significant research will be the norm for new faculty.

4. I wanted a marketable skill. When I started the job hunt in the fall I felt that the US training definitely gave me a leg up for both private and academic jobs. This didn't necessarily translate into more pay overall but usually the same pay as other group members while trading clinical time for paid administrative time for US administration.
 
thanks for the responses guys
Im now definitely sure that I am NOT doing a fellowship. Im just the kind of person that I want to do my thing in the ED(that's the only thing I like) and then finish and leave....Go fly a cessna or something or play basketball. Im not a fan of teaching or researching or doing anything else. I also want the most reward($$$) for what I do.
 
don't[/U] make bank.

That is going to depend on the department and what you do. Tox is more than just bedside consults and Poison Control. There is a huge industrial and occupational toxicology market. Many products are evaluated for potential toxicity by a Toxicologist. There is also a fair amount of money in legal review. Some toxicologists make a significant fraction, if not all of their money being physician-scientist and are essentially bench researchers (with gigantic NIH grants). Others make a significant amount via the public health route.

Your average clinical toxicologist is probably making most of their money via their primary specialty, there are lots of other ways to make money besides being at the bedside.
 
I guess one of our toxicologists does have her own clinic and deals with people who have toxicologic exposures at work and helping people getting worker's conpensation (or assuring them that their medical problems probably have no basis in their jobs). So, she does have an outside source of income other than consults. However, it's kind of a full circle. You do emergency medicine so that you don't have to do clinic, then you do a fellowship and get a clinic and about the worst kind of chronic patient you could have a nightmare over, (vague medical complaints that people are trying to get worker's compensation for and not have to work another day in their lives). :barf:

I see some problems with a lot of the fellowships in emergency medicine. They are new and people outside our specialty are often ignorant of their very existence. For example, I was talking to an internal medicine resident the other day who is rotating in the ED. He was going off on how brilliant one of his attendings was and how he was the "guru of snake bites." He firmly believed that if someone had a snakebite patient that they should call this attending in to treat them. We told him that we had a few experts too called toxicologists. We told him that unlike his attending, who would likely give him the bird in the middle of the night, that these guys would love to get a call.
Also, a lot of the niches that we try to fill with our fellowships are already filled by other people. Radiology used to have a corner on ultrasound and recieved money from ultrasounds conducted and interpreted by techs. A lot of EMS directors are family medicine. Other specialties do hyperbarics, intensive care, etc. As a result, shouldering our way into the market is met with huge resistance and sometimes stiff competition. Some fellowships are a little boring, ie research, simulation. Some aren't practical like Wilderness Medicine (come on, when's the last time you saw an advertisement for a Wilderness Medicine doctor which is full-time and is going to make 150per hour). So much of the time, these fellowships end up getting you a job which is diametrically opposed to everything you liked about emergency medicine (academic jobs full of politics, paper-work, boring meeting, and sometimes even involving clinic duties). Again, to emphasize what has already been spoken, don't go do a fellowship unless you are positive that the only job you would be happy with is in academics. Bring on the flames you fellowship trained sdn frequenters.
 
Bring on the flames you fellowship trained sdn frequenters

Ummmm, I don't think there are flames to bring on. Your point is well taken. But, I'm not fellowshiped trained. You might add an undying interest and passion to do a particular fellowship as well.
 
Again, to emphasize what has already been spoken, don't go do a fellowship unless you are positive that the only job you would be happy with is in academics. Bring on the flames you fellowship trained sdn frequenters.

Actually, a large multi-hospital group (private) here in Charlotte is looking for an US fellowship trained person for their ED US program. So at least in US the private market is there as well. And as I mentioned above I got lots of interest from the private market when I was looking for a job.
 
On the interview trail I would say that about %75 of the new faculty that were mentioned in the sales pitch were fellowship trained. "We are hiring a tox guy" "We have two new faculty members who are fellowship trained in cardiovascular resus critical care strokeology"

I think the old axiom of the 4 year programs being the breeding grounds of academicians may be over unless they all move to a model like Hopkins where you get "protected and focused time" to quote Roja.

Many of the three year programs are also developing "Niche" tracks with support from mentors to get your feet wet in a certain area should you pursue a fellowship. Duke comes to mind.

The nice thing about our specialty is that even for the residents there is scheduling flexibility to allow you to have side projects ongoing throughout the 3-4 years. Also, as curriculums morph to get us out of some of the less than desireable off service rotations (Surgery floor, peds floor etc, med floor) many programs may be able to schedule an extra elective/research month. My IM friends have at most 1 research month and as suck (it was supposed to be as such, freudian) for more competitive fellowships some are contemplating staying on for an OPTIONAL 4th year. The surgery programs are doing this as well with the advent of the 7 year programs (2 research years) Madness!!
 
My IM friends have at most 1 research month and as suck (it was supposed to be as such, freudian) for more competitive fellowships some are contemplating staying on for an OPTIONAL 4th year. The surgery programs are doing this as well with the advent of the 7 year programs (2 research years) Madness!!

I have a feeling this has more to do with generating slave labor than anything else.
 
enfuegoEP sez....do fellowship because you like it and want to be a good doctor.
 
Can someone please explain to me the point in doing an EM fellowship. As far as I know, you can make more money just going into a community setting after 3 years and even if you did academics it's not like ALL you do is Tox or ALL you do is ultrasound. So if the only reason to do a fellowship is to increase your chances of getting a position at an academic center that just sounds kind of silly to me. I mean that extra year or two is a waste. Please help me understand the logic.

Aren't you that dude/dudette that rarely posts here but has started some inane threads to make us look bad? I thought you were a troll... 😕
 
I see some problems with a lot of the fellowships in emergency medicine. They are new and people outside our specialty are often ignorant of their very existence. For example, I was talking to an internal medicine resident the other day who is rotating in the ED. He was going off on how brilliant one of his attendings was and how he was the "guru of snake bites." He firmly believed that if someone had a snakebite patient that they should call this attending in to treat them. We told him that we had a few experts too called toxicologists. We told him that unlike his attending, who would likely give him the bird in the middle of the night, that these guys would love to get a call.
Also, a lot of the niches that we try to fill with our fellowships are already filled by other people. Radiology used to have a corner on ultrasound and recieved money from ultrasounds conducted and interpreted by techs. A lot of EMS directors are family medicine. Other specialties do hyperbarics, intensive care, etc. As a result, shouldering our way into the market is met with huge resistance and sometimes stiff competition. Some fellowships are a little boring, ie research, simulation. Some aren't practical like Wilderness Medicine (come on, when's the last time you saw an advertisement for a Wilderness Medicine doctor which is full-time and is going to make 150per hour). So much of the time, these fellowships end up getting you a job which is diametrically opposed to everything you liked about emergency medicine (academic jobs full of politics, paper-work, boring meeting, and sometimes even involving clinic duties). Again, to emphasize what has already been spoken, don't go do a fellowship unless you are positive that the only job you would be happy with is in academics. Bring on the flames you fellowship trained sdn frequenters.



I don't think there are flames. I think you are raising some valid points: some people don't understand our field. Of course, to follow your logic, many don't understand our un-fellowshiped field (IE EM as a specialty) so by that logic, no one should do the residency. 😉

There is a little bit of overlap, but that is often because there hasn't been or isn't enough EM trained people to fill those position. So, as more and more EP's do EMS fellowships, FP's running those services will decline.

U/S is not going anywhere. Most U/S directors (and some of us that aren't are RDMS certified). The radiologists don't want to be doing our scans (ifyou don't believe me, call to get a gallbladder scan at 3am on a saturday night.) and most of these 'battles' are no longer being fought.

My fellowship is actually allowing me to do EXACTLY what I want (after I explain it) but mine was the first education fellowship for EM (and there aren't many even in other fields).

Fellowship can allow to build a career, and be a venue for extra income that doesn't mean working more shifts (and increasing your burn out). It also can extend your career because you have something that you love doing.

But the price may be explaining to people what it is you did. Just because people are ignorant, doesn't mean they arent' willing to learn about it.....
 
it's definitely a great sign that everyone is not all in the same corner wrt this. it's one of the best things about this specialty- the general work itself is cool as hell and there's also a crazy range of sub-specialties that relate back to the core of EM. it's not just a bunch of options based on what part of the body gets you off.

by luck i happened to find a somewhat esoteric sub-specialty within EM that i really dig- forensics. the two SAEM-listed forensics fellowships aren't active and there's no board eligibility currently, but it would be cool to incorporate it into my training however i can. most of the places i interviewed at seemed really open to this and one PD even asked me if i'd be willing to help set up a fellowship if i matched there. i said hells yes and meant it. i have no idea if he was serious and who knows if it will ever make a difference in my getting a job i want, or better pay, or even a guest spot on a show on the "crime and investigation network". 😀

but even with uncertainty about its role in my future earning potential, being able to study something i really dig is a big plus. since i already gave up one career to earn nothing for 4 years, 1 year with a smaller paycheck sounds fine. so if it's available, i'm totally doing it.

that being said, it makes sense if one doesn't see the utility in doing a fellowship. it's the first time we have a choice. you do undergrad to get into med school and so on through residency, but as others have stated you don't have to do a fellowship to get an awesome job. more power to you if it's not your bag.
 
Just curious, because I've never heard of a forensics fellowship through ER. Would you be doing autopsies? Would you be going out to crime scenes, kind of like Quincy (you know, the TV show) and then looking at organs under a microscope? Would you examine every dead person in your city in hopes that you get called in to be an expert witness and earn a few bucks? Would you be the coroner? What would your job niche be, how would you go about getting training, and who would pay for your fellowship, and your future job as a ER/forensic specialist?
 
I don't have too much information about how to go into fellowship. But, currently the basis of EM forensics is not glamorous like television portrays. EM forensics is based off the need to preserve evidence for primarily patients who arrive in the ED. Things such as documentation, photographing, exam work ups, rape kits etc. If you want to be CSI you probably need to be a clinical/anatomical pathologist and work for a city or police department.
 
A medical director at two smaller size fire departments told me there's a push underway in Florida that all EMS medical directors be fellowship trained. This seems absurd to me seeing how there are so few that have completed a fellowship, but it shows a trend for sure.
 
I don’t see how that description of the job duties of a ER/forensics doctor are any different than what a police officer does. It seems like our job in trauma/rape cases is to treat medical illness, not make a case for prosecution. Again, another great of example of a fellowship where I kind of scratch my head and say, what is the utility in that? A lot of the specialties develop over time because they provide an invaluable procedure that is unique to them. For example, cardiologists used to be just the Internal Medicine doctor most interested in reading EKGs. Gradually, things got more specialized, and along came catheterization, ablation, stress echoes, etc. Now they are a legitimate, absolutely essential part of medicine. GI is similar as far as endoscopy. Nephrology has dialysis. I don’t see the niche that an ER/forensics fellowship fills. I feel the same about EMS and Administration fellowships. What is required for EMS directors and Administration is solid doctors, who have a commitment to their job and will build bridges between departments and administrations. We have an administration month in our residency. I thought that it was very similar to Dilbert cartoons. You have a meeting in which you plan your next meeting. If you can’t agree on a certain topic, you form a committee that will have additional meetings. If you get really motivated people, you will produce a lot of paper-work which is distributed to the whole hospital and promptly thrown away by everyone involved. If the memo makes any sense, then it gets added to the enormous Hospital Policies document that no one in their right mind would try to read.
 
I don't see how that description of the job duties of a ER/forensics doctor are any different than what a police officer does. It seems like our job in trauma/rape cases is to treat medical illness, not make a case for prosecution.

Yes and no. While primarily an EP treats disease, any EP that does a rape kit is doing a forensic exam. Evidence is being collected for a possible prosecution. So, you are helping to make a case. And as a note, EP are generally pretty lousy at evidence collection for rape kits and even worse when forced to testify. Thus the SANE program was born.

The role of fellowship trained physicians isn't just in the "doing" aspect. It is also in the teaching and the planning. You don't hire someone who is disaster trained so that they can be on call for a disaster. They are there to equip and help train others for the proper response. Hopefully, they are also doing research to help advance that aspect of the field of emergency medicine. This is the most likely role for a forensic trained EP. The book/chapter on EM forensics should be written by an EP and not a SANE nurse or an ME.

I feel the same about EMS and Administration fellowships. What is required for EMS directors and Administration is solid doctors, who have a commitment to their job and will build bridges between departments and administrations.

Administration and EMS also have their place. Traditionally these roles have been filled by people who took an interest and ended up learning on the job. Physicians are generally very poorly trained at business administration and organization. Instead of blundering around and learning through trial and error or worse, being forced to differ to non-medical administrators, formal curricula have been established which allow for training in these management roles. In this cut throat business climate, blundering and trial and error can mean death for a business unit. We should not build bridges to administration. We should BE administration. That was we can get what we need and do not have to convince someone else that they should give us what we want.
 
EM IS a subspecialty. Our niche is working in ERs. We specialize in resuscitation and stabilization of serious disease. We unfortunately, have to sort through a lot of primary care type issues along the way. Training that helps us better resuscitate the acutely ill is time well spent. Any other endeavor is just a distraction. I don’t see the need to spend an entire year learning how to go to meetings. Yes, we should BE administration. We ARE administration by pulling our own weight, playing fair, and using common sense and teamwork to accomplish a goal. In my extremely confident, yet so very humble opinion, you would be a better administrator by simply practicing emergency medicine for a year full time, as opposed to going out and getting a fellowship in administration. The only way to figure out how to make ERs work better is by experiencing the frustration and chaos that is our job, and thinking about ways to make it work more efficiently. I’m fighting against the academic machine of ER. There is a bias when people get interviewed for residencies. All academic faculty want a bunch of “mini-me”s running around their departments. They love to hear, “I love research! Research is the bomb!” They love people that want to be just like them. The huge majority of ER doctors work in a world apart from academia, where fellowships are irrelevant and what matters are clinical skills and moving the meat. My message to the applicants is that you need to play the game and say that you like research and all that crap, so that they think they will get some papers and presentations out of you. It’s OK to act enthused about random boring hobbies inside of ER, but it is mostly a game and they’ll get over it when they realize you don’t really want to do research or be a part of their struggling fellowship programs. It really is hard to get kicked out of residency…I’m living proof. Just so I know how irritating and insulting my comments are, what kind of a fellowship are you in BADMD?
 
Well, people used to say the same thing about the very practice of emergency medicine...OJT!

Anyway, I'm sorry you feel that administration requires no specialized training. I can tell you that you are in good company in the house of medicine, but I don't think you're correct. Ironically, I'd guess that administrative fellowships would be more desired in private practice than in academia, where most are more insulated from financial realities.

I thought the admin fellowship for EM was in some sense the equivalent of the IM chief year? Not exactly the same, but not a totally novel concept either.

It sounds like you are really only interested in working shifts in the ED and seeing patients. I think that's very legitimate and probably what most people in the field want to do. However, I don't think your lack of interest in them means that fellowships are worthless for everyone. If you don't want to do one, no one is forcing you to, right?

As for research, again, nobody says you personally have to do it, but I hope you don't think that science and EBM are irrelevant to EM as you implied.

EM IS a subspecialty. Our niche is working in ERs. We specialize in resuscitation and stabilization of serious disease. We unfortunately, have to sort through a lot of primary care type issues along the way. Training that helps us better resuscitate the acutely ill is time well spent. Any other endeavor is just a distraction. I don’t see the need to spend an entire year learning how to go to meetings. Yes, we should BE administration. We ARE administration by pulling our own weight, playing fair, and using common sense and teamwork to accomplish a goal. In my extremely confident, yet so very humble opinion, you would be a better administrator by simply practicing emergency medicine for a year full time, as opposed to going out and getting a fellowship in administration. The only way to figure out how to make ERs work better is by experiencing the frustration and chaos that is our job, and thinking about ways to make it work more efficiently. I’m fighting against the academic machine of ER. There is a bias when people get interviewed for residencies. All academic faculty want a bunch of “mini-me”s running around their departments. They love to hear, “I love research! Research is the bomb!” They love people that want to be just like them. The huge majority of ER doctors work in a world apart from academia, where fellowships are irrelevant and what matters are clinical skills and moving the meat. My message to the applicants is that you need to play the game and say that you like research and all that crap, so that they think they will get some papers and presentations out of you. It’s OK to act enthused about random boring hobbies inside of ER, but it is mostly a game and they’ll get over it when they realize you don’t really want to do research or be a part of their struggling fellowship programs. It really is hard to get kicked out of residency…I’m living proof. Just so I know how irritating and insulting my comments are, what kind of a fellowship are you in BADMD?
 
EBM… I know it is important. I am bitter because my residency forces us to do "research". They give you no protected time, no resources, and the attendings themselves aren't very interested in doing research. We only do it at our program because it is an RRC requirement. Obviously, I have some huge chips on my shoulder. One of the numerous chips is that I feel like I have wasted hundreds of hours doing research. First, as an undergraduate, trying to get into medical school. I worked as a lab rat, doing my professors bidding and getting paid a pittance. My research never went anywhere. My professor was brand new and we helped him getting him get his new big project underway. I never published, and I never contributed anything other than being a cog in the wheel.

In medical school, I was involved in 2 different failed projects where I spent hundreds of hours pouring through patient records extracting data. The attending didn't have enough time to help us complete the project and ended up tabling it. In residency, I spent dozens of hours pouring through articles and carefully building my own research project. The IRB rejected the application 3 different times, and finally asked that we get together and talk. We finally came to an agreement on how exactly they would allow me to proceed, but it took literally 18 months to get to that point. With 14 months left in my residency, I thought I still had time to get it done and do a good job, and finally contribute a kernel of knowledge to the Holy Grail of EBM. My attending told me, "I think that it would be a sign of wisdom and maturity if you abandon that project and help me do this other project." A few days before, I had asked him for a letter of recommendation, so I wasn't in a position to not be anything other than, "wise and mature". I helped him get his lame little project done that I didn't quite see the point of. I wrote it up and submitted it to the SAEM comference, thinking, "What a piece of trash, this will never get accepted." It got accepted and I went, in shame, embarrassed to be a part of the publication, but going through the motions so that I could just graduate from residency. My attending wouldn't let me present all of the data because he wanted to break it up into separate parts and get multiple publications out of one project. This made my presentation even more worthless and pointless.

Luckily, as I sat and listened to the other research presentations, they were, by and large, equally lame. I came to the conclusion that I never wanted to be a part of another research project for the rest of my life. There was however, an amazingly dynamic speaker, who is one of the guru's of emergency medicine research. He presented an overview of his history of research and gave recommendations to programs of what they needed to do to promote research. One of his central beliefs was that we need to not force residents to do research. He reasoned (and I was convinced the next day as I listened to embarrassingly meaningless presentations) that when you force residents to do research, you get tiny little projects that come to nothing, waste everyone's time and in the end, are meaningless. I know, I know, "Do I want some cheese with my whine?"

The real reason why most ER "research" gets done is because it is an RRC requirement. Attendings want residents who are interested in research because they are under huge pressure to publish. Three ridiculous papers that are meaningless are more important to some attendings than one solid paper every 4 years that means something. At least at our program, bonuses are figured out, in part by number of published papers and presentations at regional meetings. Again, I don't dislike Evidence Based Medicine, I am irritated by a broken system that largely churns out crap. I know I'm being a troll. But the purpose of this website is to give medical students an idea of what residency is really like and what ER in general is like. I just wanted to present a different face to academics and fellowships in general. Usually, on this website, it is kind of a rosy faced, "Gee williker guys, lets go do some research and fellowships. That would be swell and exciting!"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Paragraphs are important too 😛

I agree that forcing people to do research is not a good idea and leads to research that is of poor quality, which undermines people's attitudes toward science. I am sorry that you had a bad experience with research and were turned off to it. It does sound like you would agree that research done by those who are passionate about it and committed to it is valuable, and I think that as long as people in EM undertake fellowships for those reasons, the system is working well.

I'd hate to see things progress in EM to the point where people feel obliged to do fellowships just because their core specialty is not attractive enough or they feel undertrained otherwise, as is the case in some other fields.

Also, I don't think you are being a troll. I must admit the possibility crossed my mind but on looking at your other posts I saw that they were well-reasoned and substantive. It's good to have different perspectives here.
 
Make people do research who dont want to do research and you get poor quality research.

The RRC doesn't mandate research. It mandates an academic project. We have had residents write chapters, reviews, work on administrative projects, work on disaster, billing, cqi.

People should do fellowships because it gives you dedicated time to do something you love. Time you won't get once you are in the real world. And fellowships can be very non-academic. I have a friend who did a patient safety fellowship, is now very high up in a large large EM group and owns his own business. Its his passion.
 
EBM… I know it is important. I am bitter because my residency forces us to do “research”...

Wow. I'm not sure what to say to all that. I can see why you are kind of bitter about the whole thing. I can say that I had a very different experience...especially as I find research interesting. Although I have to say that all the research project that I have been involved in were driven by me and not handed to me.

That is probably the difference. I get to see my own idea through. It lives and dies by me. My first project hasn't gotten beyond the poster stage because I haven't written it up. Then again, I got to present what I wanted, as it was my idea, my IRB, my work and my project.

With the fellowship, I get the chance to expand beyond the ED and do something that I think is interesting and that I think has possibility of making a different (assuming I can get the grant that I'm applying for). Frankly, I love that I have protected time and support to do work on the projects that I want. I also get the chance to work beyond the ED. I spend time consulting to the ICU, to primary care doctors and in a strange and bizarre turn of events, I have my own clinic (and I actually kind of like it - although I see a very limited set of patients and I see them at my discretion).

And that is the ultimate difference. Most people who finish residency have no desire to work in academia and beyond the scope of their training. EM is great for that. You can do your time and have time to pursue other avenues. Frankly, most doctors (not just EPs) don't have the desire to work in academia. That doesn't mean that the fellowships are pointless. Being a good EP won't train someone to administer the business unit of the ED, nor will it train someone to run an EMS division. Fellowship gives me the opportunity to gain additional experience and additional training in an aspect of Emergency Medicine while still working in the ED. I also get the chance to be "academic" and work beyond the ED.

Just for the record, I'm in training to be a professional poisoner. (Hope this all makes sense as I have been poisoning my liver for St. Patrick's Day).
 
They have med onc fellowships for EPs??

Those guys are amateurs, what with their protocols and the like. It is more fun when you can use anything and everything. Technically, I think I'm supposed to treat the poisoned, but it seems, with all the bizarro stuff I end up studying, that I know more about how to poison than how to rescue.
 
Make people do research who dont want to do research and you get poor quality research.

The RRC doesn't mandate research. It mandates an academic project. We have had residents write chapters, reviews, work on administrative projects, work on disaster, billing, cqi.

People should do fellowships because it gives you dedicated time to do something you love. Time you won't get once you are in the real world. And fellowships can be very non-academic. I have a friend who did a patient safety fellowship, is now very high up in a large large EM group and owns his own business. Its his passion.

If doing research in this type of environment (need to do something, but no passion), could a person continue/start back up with research they did prior to medical school (in a totally non-EM diagnosis). Yes I am referring to myself. I did research on a disorder that will never be diagnosed in the ED, and I'm asking if a program like this would allow continuance on this subject.
 
...I did research on a disorder that will never be diagnosed in the ED, and I'm asking if a program like this would allow continuance on this subject.
ERMudPhud's research work was unrelated to his clinical practice. One of the reasons I looked into EM was because the scheduling allowed (this is ER's statement, not mine) you the freedom to pursue clincal or basic science, in subjects related to clinical practice or completely unrelated.
 
ERMudPhud's research work was unrelated to his clinical practice. One of the reasons I looked into EM was because the scheduling allowed (this is ER's statement, not mine) you the freedom to pursue clincal or basic science, in subjects related to clinical practice or completely unrelated.

Problem is that it was over a rare disorder (pretty sure it's still rare since some/most doctors have never heard of it). I would have to have a collaboration of many neurology offices with neurologists that know/believe the disorder exists.
 
You could probably do research like that. Your first priority in residency is getting trained as an EMP.

Once you were done, you could definately do something like this.
 
One problem with doing that research may be if you are looking for academic jobs. If I was chief of an EM program and someone wanted to be a new faculty member but wanted to do all their research with the department of neuro that would take me back a little. They want to see publications in journals that make their department look good, not another department. Also maybe an issue researching something rare if you end up somewhere that doesn't have someone working on it, or doesn't attract a lot of patients. Not telling you can't do this research, but I think it would be hard to work on something totally outside of EM in an academic EM program. If you were in private practice it may be a different story, you can research whatever you want in your free time if you can get the funding etc.

Also, it would make your life easier if you were working on something EM related during residency, the things you read for your project would be applicable to your job. If all your research reading was for something unrelated, you still need to learn all the EM stuff.
 
You all have good points. I just remembered that I'm sure with time something in EM will fascinate me enough to research it.
 
...If I was chief of an EM program and someone wanted to be a new faculty member but wanted to do all their research with the department of neuro that would take me back a little. They want to see publications in journals that make their department look good, not another department...Also, it would make your life easier if you were working on something EM related during residency, the things you read for your project would be applicable to your job...
I agree: these are all good points and are things I think about when I think about my career.

Take it another way: In your example, you could just as easily say you've got a representative of your department in who works with neuro, making everyone look good. The by-line on those papers would have both departments listed...

EM2BE: Another thing to consider is the year-off program with the CDC in Applied Epidemiology. You could study the disease you wanted, and it would train you in ways that are applicable to EM. Or you could delay things and go there after residency.
 
Top