When did a 20 become an average score?

[fajitapita]

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I am going to stop looking at SDN and predents because it's really screwing with me. I bought that $30 book from the ADEA with all the U.S. dental school stats for the 2005-2006 incoming classes, and it seemed to me that the national average for dental schools is something like this:
Overall GPA = 3.45
Science GPA = 3.4
DAT academic average = 19.1
DAT PAT = 17.8

I do realize that SDN is not very representative of the entire applicant pool, and is only a small fraction of it. But I just can't seem to fathom the fact that so many people have 20+ scores and 19+ PAT scores, and 3.6+ GPAs. I respect these people imensely. I used to talk with a lot of friends about the day that a 20 on your dat would become the "new 17." Looks like that time has come. It just blows me away that scores seem to have inflated so drastically over a one year time frame. Wow.😱 Maybe I am wrong.
Any thoughtful insights?

 

[Typo]

It became the average as soon as you started looking at SDN posts. You see, we SDNers are freaks. It takes a real weirdo/sicko/nerd (take your pick) to not only actually go searching for dental student information on the web, but then to stick around and keep posting there for months or years.

Seriously though, if scores are truly inflated all over the nation, it's only slightly. You have to also consider this:
- people who post on SDN are nerds
- people who are willing to post their scores are usually those with higher scores
- there are tons of lurkers who never post on here
- some people are probably inflating their scores

When you look at NBDE scores of people who actually post them on SDN as well, it's ridiculous. It's almost out of the norm to not see a 90+ (or even 95+), and that's just ridiculous. Nerds, nerds, nerds, all of us. That's not a bad thing, though. 🙂

 

[stosh]

I personally think 3 quarters of the scores posted are a bit exaggerated... 😀

 

[DDSY]

It became the average as soon as you started looking at SDN posts. You see, we SDNers are freaks. It takes a real weirdo/sicko/nerd (take your pick) to not only actually go searching for dental student information on the web, but then to stick around and keep posting there for months or years.

Seriously though, if scores are truly inflated all over the nation, it's only slightly. You have to also consider this:
- people who post on SDN are overachievers/nerds in general
- people who are willing to post their scores are usually those with higher scores
- there are tons of lurkers who never post on here
- some people are probably inflating their scores

If you look at SDNers NBDE scores too, you see the same exact thing - absurdly skewed, way above average scores. The NBDEs are scaled pretty consistently, too.

Look at Typo for instance. Better, look at me

 

[Azy]

My scores are very similar to yours and the SDN makes me more and more stressed and nervous everyday!!! I have been doing research for past three years and I have publications. However according to this website just because I didn’t get above 20 on DAT, I won't have a chance! I am trying to be hopeful... or maybe I just should give up! 🙁

 

[laelialudisia]

My scores are very similar to yours and the SDN makes me more and more stressed and nervous everyday!!! I have been doing research for past three years and I have publications. However according to this website just because I didn’t get above 20 on DAT, I won't have a chance! I am trying to be hopeful... or maybe I just should give up! 🙁

don't give up 🙂 , take everything you read on here with a grain of salt. if you start to get anxious b/c of things you read on SDN take a break for a while...this group is a small, very overachieving, non-representative sample of this cycle's applicants --- always keep that in mind. 😉

 

[DDSY]

There are people without 20's who got interviews and 1 person in the forum who got an interview from Columbia this early.

 

[catytweety]

My scores are very similar to yours and the SDN makes me more and more stressed and nervous everyday!!! I have been doing research for past three years and I have publications. However according to this website just because I didn’t get above 20 on DAT, I won't have a chance! I am trying to be hopeful... or maybe I just should give up! 🙁

Yea, don't worry. My DAT scores weren't all that, and I just got my first interview invite for NYU. DO NOT LOSE HOPE! 🙂

 

[HOTTY]

Think about this, if there are 16,000+ AADSAS applicants (source AADSAS) and a twenty is the ninetieth percentile. That means that 1600 people have that score or better. 20+

1600 people are in the 20+ club. That leaves plenty of room for the under 20 clubbers to get in to many schools. When that happens all the averages begin to come back down to the numbers you have been reading.

make sense?

 

[Uracil]

It became the average as soon as you started looking at SDN posts. You see, we SDNers are freaks. It takes a real weirdo/sicko/nerd (take your pick) to not only actually go searching for dental student information on the web, but then to stick around and keep posting there for months or years.

Seriously though, if scores are truly inflated all over the nation, it's only slightly. You have to also consider this:
- people who post on SDN are nerds
- people who are willing to post their scores are usually those with higher scores
- there are tons of lurkers who never post on here
- some people are probably inflating their scores

When you look at NBDE scores of people who actually post them on SDN as well, it's ridiculous. It's almost out of the norm to not see a 90+ (or even 95+), and that's just ridiculous. Nerds, nerds, nerds, all of us. That's not a bad thing, though. 🙂

👍

 

[Uracil]

It became the average as soon as you started looking at SDN posts. You see, we SDNers are freaks. It takes a real weirdo/sicko/nerd (take your pick) to not only actually go searching for dental student information on the web, but then to stick around and keep posting there for months or years.

Seriously though, if scores are truly inflated all over the nation, it's only slightly. You have to also consider this:
- people who post on SDN are nerds
- people who are willing to post their scores are usually those with higher scores
- there are tons of lurkers who never post on here
- some people are probably inflating their scores

When you look at NBDE scores of people who actually post them on SDN as well, it's ridiculous. It's almost out of the norm to not see a 90+ (or even 95+), and that's just ridiculous. Nerds, nerds, nerds, all of us. That's not a bad thing, though. 🙂

👍
I must say that SDN gets me really nervous!!

 

[fajitapita]

Yea, don't worry. My DAT scores weren't all that, and I just got my first interview invite for NYU. DO NOT LOSE HOPE! 🙂

I'm not losing hope, I am just a bit concerned about these numbers. I also interviewed at NYU in mid-Sept. It's a good school. Best of luck.

 

[Revelde]

Think about this, if there are 16,000+ AADSAS applicants (source AADSAS) and a twenty is the ninetieth percentile. That means that 1600 people have that score or better. 20+

1600 people are in the 20+ club. That leaves plenty of room for the under 20 clubbers to get in to many schools. When that happens all the averages begin to come back down to the numbers you have been reading.

make sense?

Not everyone who has taken DAT will APPLY.
I bet those with DAT scores less than 17 won't even apply.
17 is like 50 percentile. So we could say that 16000+ applicants are like in top 50 percentiles.. which means that 1/5 of 16000 applicants will have 20+ DAT score. .. about 3200 ? AND there are only 4000 spots available...
So if we just make this whole admission game extreamly simple.. DAT wise.. there are only 800 spots left for those who scored less than 20 in DAT.
Got it?

🙁 :

 

[iviikoivi]

I've actually seen discrepancies between scores posted on sdn and those on predents.com

Not a big difference, just maybe an extra point on the dat and extra .1 gpa

 

[DDSY]

Not everyone who has taken DAT will APPLY.
I bet those with DAT scores less than 17 won't even apply.
17 is like 50 percentile. So we could say that 16000+ applicants are like in top 50 percentiles.. which means that 1/5 of 16000 applicants will have 20+ DAT score. .. about 3200 ? AND there are only 4000 spots available...
So if we just make this whole admission game extreamly simple.. DAT wise.. there are only 800 spots left for those who scored less than 20 in DAT.
Got it?

🙁 :

Although I appreciate your opinion, I disagree with this statement. From what I've heard, a 20 is the 90th percentile. I don't see how 10% of DAT takers will occupy most of dental school spots. I would probably say around half or less, based on DAT trends from previous DAT averages.

 

[Revelde]

Although I appreciate your opinion, I disagree with this statement. From what I've heard, a 20 is the 90th percentile. I don't see how 10% of DAT takers will occupy most of dental school spots. I would probably say around half or less, based on DAT trends from previous DAT averages.

yeah.. my math was very extream. there are many other factors that play in this admission process.. but I can say that 20+ scores are no longer as "HIGH" as we'll thaught.. and not as competitive.. it is competitive but its definitely not a score to sit back and relax.

 

[QuackDentist]

Okay... I guess I have to break it down.

The average DAT score went up when I took the DATs. My tremendously high score elevated it. I'm glad that problem is solved. 😛

on the real though, the average DAT score is still a 17. Most dental schools have around 17-19 averages... not really a 20.

 

[tissy]

Honestly, don't worry about what other people have or are scoring...just worry about yourself and what's going to get you in. SDN's great to get information that help you better your application and kill the interview. However, don't compare yourself to everyone on here just get info from everyone here. I did't do well on my DAT but I managed to pull in two interviews so far. I'm not proud that I didn't do well but I still pulled myself together and kept my head up. I didn't let anyone discourage me..actually everyone on here were very kind and encouraged me to keep my head up. My point is..don't let anyone (espcecially on sdn) make you doubt yourself. Because you know what...you are working your ass off to get to dental school and nobody can take that away from you. So keep your head up and get as much information as you can from us on SDN and it will be your day to shine...😉

 

[bionerd]

Yea, don't worry. My DAT scores weren't all that, and I just got my first interview invite for NYU. DO NOT LOSE HOPE! 🙂

Me too! I got their email today saying they want to schedule an interview 😀 Wow I love NYU already just cuz they're willing to give me an interview without all my LORs in

 

[snapple59]

I think getting DAT score around 20 is important but not all schools are going to just look at your DAT scores. I've gotten a couple of interviews with AA of 18 and PAT of 16. As long as you get interviews, you still have some chance.

 

[dddsmack]

yeah.. my math was very extream. there are many other factors that play in this admission process.. but I can say that 20+ scores are no longer as "HIGH" as we'll thaught.. and not as competitive.. it is competitive but its definitely not a score to sit back and relax.

(this is not a personal attack, just a response with a different opinion)
In response to the previous post, why can't people with 20+ scores sit back and relax? I have eight interviews (and yes VCU and Louisville still piss me off) but don't you honestly think one of the eight will accept me?

Have you ever heard of a legit 20+ clubber who wasn't accepted anywhere barring some unusual circumstance, like applying late?

I know a ton of applicants from the past four years, and everyone who has had a 19 or higher has been accepted. and I know a ton of 18's that went last year alone. I would say that if you scored 20+ you are pretty much going to dental school unless you can't hold a conversation. I could be wrong but I haven't seen it yet.

 

[ecuajedi]

Also the fact that a lot of schools are instate and are forced to take instate residents. Take Kentucky for instance (Im still mad at Louisville). They have two schools there that both accept quite a large number of instate applicants Louisville is around 45-50 and UK is at around 45 as well. Now do you really think there are close to a hundred people in that state that scored a 20+. I bet there are less than 5. I mean come on its Kentucky. Most people in that state dont even have all their teeth and still think there is a Confederate Union. So thats how the average really drops back down to 17-18.

 

[jim85213]

Also the fact that a lot of schools are instate and are forced to take instate residents. Take Kentucky for instance (Im still mad at Louisville). They have two schools there that both accept quite a large number of instate applicants Louisville is around 45-50 and UK is at around 45 as well. Now do you really think there are close to a hundred people in that state that scored a 20+. I bet there are less than 5. I mean come on its Kentucky. Most people in that state dont even have all their teeth and still think there is a Confederate Union. So thats how the average really drops back down to 17-18.

Be sure to tell them that in your interview and let me know how it goes.

 

[ecuajedi]

I got to get an interview first and then my opinion will be tweaked a bit...maybe to using Texas as an example instead

 

[abzirian]

I got to get an interview first and then my opinion will be tweaked a bit...maybe to using Texas as an example instead

haha - shouldn't be laughing (i like texas) but still funny

 

[laelialudisia]

(this is not a personal attack, just a response with a different opinion)
In response to the previous post, why can't people with 20+ scores sit back and relax? I have eight interviews (and yes VCU and Louisville still piss me off) but don't you honestly think one of the eight will accept me?

Have you ever heard of a legit 20+ clubber who wasn't accepted anywhere barring some unusual circumstance, like applying late?

I know a ton of applicants from the past four years, and everyone who has had a 19 or higher has been accepted. and I know a ton of 18's that went last year alone. I would say that if you scored 20+ you are pretty much going to dental school unless you can't hold a conversation. I could be wrong but I haven't seen it yet.

obviously, we know virtually nothing about you, like how you interview, what your LOR's say, how much community service you have competed, etc. so there are still a lot of variables that come into play other than your gpa and dat scores.

 

[aggie-master]

One of the schools I recently interviewed at said that their average dat scores are really close to 20 (19.something).

Even with that, for every person like me that scored a 22 (and there are lots of us), you have to let in 1 person with an 18 or 2 people with a 19 to get an average of 20.

I'm sure that a few of the people made a 24. It would take 4 19s to bring that one person's score down to an average of 20.

My point is that probably more than half of people admitted to dental school had DAT's below that school's average DAT. The reason for this is that they don't admit people with 14s and 15s on the DAT AA, but they do admit people with 23s and 24s. Because of this, you probably have a lot of people just below the average DAT getting admitted.

 

[DentalBoarder]

how exactly does the percentile work? If it's a 98.7 percentile, does it mean that i did better than 98.7% of the test takers for THAT day, a period of a year, or the entire 10000 years that the DAT has been around? and are retakers' scores eradicated in figuring out the percentile?

 

[beastly115]

My point is that probably more than half of people admitted to dental school had DAT's below that school's average DAT.

In fact, I would say exactly half of people admitted to dental school had DAT's below the school's average DAT 😉

 

[DDSY]

In fact, I would say exactly half of people admitted to dental school had DAT's below the school's average DAT 😉

Hahahaha. I disagree. It also depends on outliers: Ie, someone who has an extremely high score will pull the average way up. Exactly half will score above the MEDIAN and half below it. 😉

 

[Chrono1984]

how exactly does the percentile work? If it's a 98.7 percentile, does it mean that i did better than 98.7% of the test takers for THAT day, a period of a year, or the entire 10000 years that the DAT has been around? and are retakers' scores eradicated in figuring out the percentile?

There are different versions of the test. The percentile correlates strictly to whatever version you happened to get. 98.7 simply means that 98.7 percent of the applicants taking that particular version scored the same or lower and only 1.3% managed to get a higher score. Tests seem to vary in difficulty so a 20 on a certain exam may be the equivalent to a 22 on a different exam percentile-wise.

 

[blue_moon01]

I must say, SDN put me in my place and motivated me to do more to get into dental school.
I was stoked with my scores and felt pretty comfortable about getting in but after seeing other's scores in SDN I had to pick my little beehind up and find dentists to shadows, dental labs to work in.. ect...

As for the new average being 20 :

In this cycle I think the average DAT that most schools aim for is 20+. That means that the average scores of all DAT takers are probably around 18, but there's a higher volume of takers this cycle which means there are more people getting 20+/ THe percentage of people getting certain scores are the same, but the numbers can increases when the total increases. For an example 20% of 100 is 20 but 20% of 200 is 40.

Getting a 20+ is good, but an 18 or a 19 can still make you competitive if your other credentials are out of this world so all the 18's and 19s out there, don't worry, just upped your exposure to the dental field or if you're still in school improve your GPA.

LAst but not least, I've been hearing about people saying that DAT's and GPA's arent everything, but they are about 70% of your application. Other credentials are important but realistically speaking, dental school is tough so the adcoms have to find people who are capable of handling it. GPA and DAT are the only two thing on the application that can't be exxagerated while Experiences, EC and other things can. Even though DAT and GPA won't guarantee that you will do well in dental school, it's a good indicator. The GPA is a good indicator of your ability to learn during dental school. The DAT is a good indicator of how wel you test and if you will be able to handle the boards. The PAT is a good indicator of how good of a dentist you will be because you will be working on 3D objects but in many different orientations so it's good to be able to visualize an objects in all perspective.

WITH THAT SAID..
Does anyone else here thinks that by next year a 23 AA will no longer be in the 98 percentile anymore but will instead be like a 90 percentile?

 

[reapply2007]

No. If the numerical score is going correlate to a meaningful percentage then the overall number of testakers can go up and the overall number of people at any percentage will go up but the percentage will remain the same. Since the test is taken continuously the % probably reflects questions used many times,over the course of years plus a few new questions introduced periodically and entered into the mix once they are established as reliable.

The percentages scored for tests given out by ADEA most likely match a historical trend. Specific questions with established % of right and wrong answers given will hold the percentages constant over time. I suspect that this is how they know if a test prep company has published an actual DAT question. Test prep companies pay people to go and take the DAT just to garner information on the DAT for use in the prep classes they sell (ie. Kaplan spends "millions" on researching their materials). ADEA asks on the registration form if you took prep courses and from where and then sees which questions people with those prep courses tend to get correct. If everyone that took prep course "X" gets the uber hard question/s right but does average on the rest of the questions then ADEA knows questions are in the public domain and mixes up the DAT question/s at issue.

I've seen elsewhere that the schools don't receive the % for the numerical score until the end of the application cycle.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

(this is not a personal attack, just a response with a different opinion)
In response to the previous post, why can't people with 20+ scores sit back and relax? I have eight interviews (and yes VCU and Louisville still piss me off) but don't you honestly think one of the eight will accept me?

Your cockiness might shine through as well....
I know there are people with 18s who got in and i also know there are people with 23's who got rejected

 

[armorshell]

Your cockiness might shine through as well....
I know there are people with 18s who got in and i also know there are people with 23's who got rejected

I don't think its cockiness to assume you're going to dental school when you're sitting on 8 interviews; it's inevitability

 

[OSUDDS]

8 interviews IS pretty ballin

 

[DentalBoarder]

8 interviews IS pretty ballin

it is. i have ONE.

 

[JohnDoeDDS]

quick question. What do you guys think of a 19/15? 3.5 cum, BCP 3.8;

Still no interviews, took DAT Aug 18th 🙁

 

[dent1021]

quick question. What do you guys think of a 19/15? 3.5 cum, BCP 3.8;

Still no interviews, took DAT Aug 18th 🙁

you'll be fine. 3.8 is very good. i'm sure you'll have a 20+ PAT person telling you to do it again though. and if you have to take it again, the pat can be improved (it's not as inherent as people think)

 

[Lily-VA]

🙄
Ok, people. Let's not get too worried about someone scoring high on their DAT. You face competitions everyday in life. And this is just another begining of it, geez🙂

Just be steady, and try hard, concentrate. Yes, the scores frustrated me many times, but if they can get those stats, so can you! Let's not give up!!!😀

 

[Lily-VA]

well, keep this in mind-the national average is 18 this year. Some schools want over 19. That's it!

 

[OSUDDS]

what study posted 18 as the natl avg?

 

[Euphoria36]

Something you guys are overlooking are the gpas of the people w/ the 20+ dats. Of course you have the outliers with the 3.8+ gpa along with the insane dat scores who are bound for harvard, columbia, penn etc.....but a chunk of the rest of the group work hard for the DATs *because* the gpa is lacking, or there are other extenuating circumstances that force them to amp up their application to a comparable/competitive level.

if you have a solid gpa (~ 3.5) with an average DAT and you applied early, there shouldn't be any problems getting in unless the rest of the app is sorely lacking or you completely botch the interview.

It's too early for people to be freaking out! be patient, just wait and see...

 

[beannaithe]

To be an average, you need a bunch of people on both sides. And in all honesty, dental school do accept a couple of people who have ridiculous DATs (25+). Those are the people that skew the whole average.

I'd say solid GPA (like 3.5) and higher then an 18 and you should be fine. Don't worry...just wait for the interviews to come in!

 

[blue_moon01]

quick question. What do you guys think of a 19/15? 3.5 cum, BCP 3.8;

Still no interviews, took DAT Aug 18th 🙁

I've said this somewhere before and people don't tell you this but your DATs comes into play again when you want to specialize. So keep that in mind. But just the same if the 15 is a PAT, I'd say call the school and tell them you'll retake, and retake it. Your high GPA will help your Science DAT SCores (not that it needs it cause a 19 is goooode~!) but there's nothing to even out the PAT.

Overall, if you apply to the right schools, the interviews will come soon.
Good luck!

 

[4thQtrDreams]

people don't tell you this but your DATs comes into play again when you want to specialize.

I think a lot of us are more worried about getting into dental school, and less worried about getting into our choice of specialty 😀

 

[laelialudisia]

I think a lot of us are more worried about getting into dental school, and less worried about getting into our choice of specialty 😀

yeah, one step at a time 😉

 

[blue_moon01]

I think a lot of us are more worried about getting into dental school, and less worried about getting into our choice of specialty 😀

Ok, ok you guys are right. Specialization is not a priority right now for me either. Getting in dental school is my main concern. But the one thing I learned from my undergrad is that you have just better be prepared as much as you can.

And according to alot of upper level dental students, specialists, dentists, and professors I've talked to it seemed that most of dental school applicants and d1 students are not aware of the factors that effect your chances of getting into a specialization program or special programs that the school have until it's too late.

We all know specialization is getting loads more competitive and sometime, your DAT scores which seem like a thing of the past in four years might be the deciding factor if your boards and dental school GPA and other credentials are similar to other candidates.

And normally I wouldn't even say anything, but I think that a 15 on the PAT is low and I'm just giving johndoe another reason/motivation to retake the DAT. JOhn might want to specialize, he may not, but it's great to know that he's got another good stat to back him up. But that's only the secondary reason. I think he should retake it because it's very competitive right now to get into dental school and sadly, most schools will not take a 15 on the PAT when the AA is less than 20 no matter how great your other credentials are. They will ask you to retake the DAT again. Getting in dental school is really important to me and to everyone who are members of SDN. I'd want honest opinions that would help me secure a seat in september 2007 so I'm just doing the same.

But the good news is, since your GPA is high, they might give you the time to prove yourself.
REgardless, good luck with everything!

 

[PlanB21]

don't worry about your PAT score. I got a 15 and I have 6 interviews...The dean of admissions at UNC told all of us that PAT test has no correlation on how good of a dentist you are going to be. To me, it is all about hands and speed. Some schools still look at it but who cares.If you wanna be a good dentist..just spend extra time in the labs.

 

[fajitapita]

Thanks for all the awesome feedback. Good to get different perspectives!