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Interesting. I've seen multiple anaphylaxis and strokes but none of the things you've seen.
When do we file against ABA?
- Thread starter caligas
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Interesting. I've seen multiple anaphylaxis and strokes but none of the things you've seen.
D
deleted162650
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Not like you can do anything to predict anaphylaxis. Strokes weren't my OR cases, I just happened to get saddled with the aftermath.
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I have been following the NBPAS story peripherally for a while - thanks to some links posted here on SDN.
MOC isn't a bad idea - as Paul Teirstein (CEO of NBPAS) says, it's just that it costs too much and has useless activies - as many of you have said.
If some of you haven't watched the debate between Paul Teirstein and the ABMS CEO - it is a must. What Paul astutely lays out is the conflicts of interest that exist between ALL our boards and the stake holders that are now requiring board certification. It really is appalling.
The real problem is lack of competition among board certification options.
So the question is, if hospitals, governments, and insurance companies all of a sudden started accepting NBPAS certification for us - how soon do you think the ABA MOCA fees would drop? And if they would drop, doesn't that mean they are over-charging currently?
Gern - you said the ABA isn't corrupt. Will you at least agree, they are super greedy?
MOC isn't a bad idea - as Paul Teirstein (CEO of NBPAS) says, it's just that it costs too much and has useless activies - as many of you have said.
If some of you haven't watched the debate between Paul Teirstein and the ABMS CEO - it is a must. What Paul astutely lays out is the conflicts of interest that exist between ALL our boards and the stake holders that are now requiring board certification. It really is appalling.
The real problem is lack of competition among board certification options.
So the question is, if hospitals, governments, and insurance companies all of a sudden started accepting NBPAS certification for us - how soon do you think the ABA MOCA fees would drop? And if they would drop, doesn't that mean they are over-charging currently?
Gern - you said the ABA isn't corrupt. Will you at least agree, they are super greedy?
If the ABA itself is super greedy, which members are you referring to? The elected members that set the policy clearly aren't getting paid much money to do so nor are they living it up through some lavish travel perks funded by us. The professional employees of the ABA are receiving salaries that I assume are in line with the market for their services.
I mean I get that the concept as currently implemented is a bit of a money waste, I'm just not sure which individuals we are supposed to blame for being greedy.
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My take on the ABA is it is less greed and any sort of individual monetary gain than it is an example of "persistence of jobs". I don't think anyone in the ABA is out to line their pockets with your money directly. Instead they are people whose livelihood or professional development/accolade is based entirely off the existence of an optional organization and optional certification process.
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Don't we have enough useless people reaching into our pockets?
D
deleted50478
It’s not optional. If it were optional they would be out of business.
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Unless I have a misunderstanding about the process, being board certified is not technically required to practice Anesthesia.
If it were, anyone who failed their boards would be out of a job quite quickly.
If it were, anyone who failed their boards would be out of a job quite quickly.
LOL.
You cant work but 500 miles from nowhere, supervising CRNAs if you are not board certified.
So its not technically required, but it will Severely limit you.
Its like trying to find a job after disclosing you got fired at your last job for slapping a nurse silly for asking you the exact time you gave antibiotics 3 times after you told her already tiwce.
You probably will be severely limited after that disclosure.
Or disclosing that you have three DWIs. severely limited.
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I never set out to be the defender of the ABA and I disagree with a lot of what they do. A lot. As mentioned above, no one person is getting rich off of their involvement with the ABA. However, I do believe that the process could be done much cheaper and without all of the top heaviness seen in the administration. It could also be done out of offices that are not brand new lavish locations. Getting rid of the OSCE portion of the Advanced exam would save a lot of money by decreasing the prep costs and the space needed to administer it. Trim the number of directors to half. Get rid of half or more of the secretarial support, etc. I suspect that the process could be run out of smaller office space and some re-purposed rooms instead of the testing environment that exists. The cost of living is also high there, so property that is mid america could likely be obtained where they would get more value for their (our) money. I would estimate that they could trim it down by close to 50% if they really cared about their constituents. At least they aren't paying for examiner's 4 star hotel rooms in the most expensive cities in the US anymore. That was exchanged for expensive high rise office space that likely will save in the long run but will take many years to see the return on investment.
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You can fail a stage in the board exam process and still be board eligible for a long time.
People who are not board certified and are no longer board eligible are essentially unemployable in most of the US. They certainly aren't getting good jobs anywhere.
Has anybody argued here (or anywhere for that matter) that MOCA is currently a good value to us? While I will strongly argue for the importance of MOCA and against lifetime certification, I do not make any suggestion that it is well done.
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So essentially, it is not required, but we as a collective are guilty for giving them the power by preferentially hiring people with a certificate and avoiding those without.
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I just don’t understand why my MOC activities do not count as CME and my CME activities don’t count for MOC. Why do I need an increasing number of organizations policing how I spend my free time? I can answer some very similar multiple choice questions between ACE and MOCA minute and depending on who I gave my dollar to determines which educational policeman it counts for. That makes no sense to me.
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deleted50478
What percentage of jobs requiring certification does it take to consider certification a requirement?
Any reasonable answer to that question will be a smaller percentage than the current portion of jobs requiring BC/BE.
that is a valid question as it relates to anesthesia specific CME and I don't know how anyone could argue that one should not count for the other.
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deleted50478
ACE can’t replace MOCA minute because ACE is honor system and gives you the answers while MOCA minute doesn’t provide the answers and gives inadequate time to look answers up. ie MOCA minute simulates an exam and ACE doesn’t really.
Now if you reverse it and say MOCA minute should provide CME, then you might be onto something.
Every recruiter will ask you the same series of quesitons.. Are you board certified is usually in first three questions invariably. You can count on that question. They even take it a step further.. Are you board ceritfied within 5 years of finishing residency?
Ask yourself. if it doesnt matter, why dod they ask it.
They dont ask you if have graduated college? (you dont need a college degree to go to medical school). Nobody ever asks it.
SO yes, you wont be able to work ANYWHERE (for all intents and purposes). if you dont have your boards.
Sure there are indian reservations in sout dakota that will accept you but thats about it.
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One of two conditions must exist for MOCA. Either the passrate is set close to 100%, making the whole thing nothing more than a rubber stamp that costs money. One which "grandfathers" were not subject to. One which cheapens the achievement of primary board certification.
OR- they put teeth in the thing and actually fail some meaningful percentage of people. People who have passed their boards already, are working without issue, without actions against their licenses, etc. This could be career-ruining, especially for people who have no other marks on their record.
I find both of these scenarios unacceptable.
Anyone who doesn't mind burning $210 a year on a useless exercise simply because it's not that much money is welcome to PM me for my PayPal address and send me $210 every year. Thanks in advance.
OR- they put teeth in the thing and actually fail some meaningful percentage of people. People who have passed their boards already, are working without issue, without actions against their licenses, etc. This could be career-ruining, especially for people who have no other marks on their record.
I find both of these scenarios unacceptable.
Anyone who doesn't mind burning $210 a year on a useless exercise simply because it's not that much money is welcome to PM me for my PayPal address and send me $210 every year. Thanks in advance.
That is not a good rational argument for anyone to send you $210 a year. The simple fact is that amount of time it takes to earn that can be measured in minutes and while it is annoying, the cost isn't having an impact on any of us in any way.
And no, I'm not arguing in favor of it as it exists or what they charge for it, I'm just laughing at the people acting like it's some financial hardship to them. You won't win any sympathy from the rest of the country making that argument.
Don't speak too loud because if they find out the fee is too low they'll raise it to where it IS a hardship. Then what?
The fee is NOT the point. and the crux of our argument is not how high the fee is; rather that there is a fee at all.
It could be .50 and still be just as wrong. The program is untested, unproven unhelpful and simply abhorent. It is a money-grab time hog bureaucratic exercise that just simply exists to exist. There is zero value in it. MOreover, it cheapens our efforts to overcome initial certification.
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I’m sorry, but I still think of $210 as a significant enough amount of money that I would like to take care and think of where it is going. I may spend $210 for a meal at some Michelin star restaurant and be quite happy and comfortable spending that, but if that meal is cr@ppy, I’m not going to be happy. Right now I’m spending $210 for a cr@ppy MOCA meal.
They are like any get rich quick scheme. All advertising, no value. It is garbage.
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And, right now, they have a monopoly. So, whatever the price, we have to pay it. I hope that the NBPAS gets more traction and becomes a more viable option for all. The consequence will hopefully be that the ABA has some competition and improves their process and keeps the price in check. As I heard a very smart person say, "who is watching the watchers?"
Organizations such as JCAHO, the ABMS boards, Medicare, etc. need to have people keeping them in check so that they don't go rogue. At the very least, the NBPAS lets the watchers know that they are being watched and scrutinized. It gives a voice to the physicians.
That is exactly the point.
remember Maintenance of Licensure concept a few years back that was so ridiculous that it had to be shot down. This is what needs to happen with MOC.
GrandfatherMed
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Dear Colleagues,
I am thrilled to update you on the status of our campaign to end MOC™. The initial goal of $150,000 in seed money was realized in under six months, with over 750 contributors. And as you surely know, due in part to your generous assistance, four of our colleagues recently filed federal class action antitrust claims against the American Board of Internal Medicine (ABIM). A copy of the Complaint can be downloaded at http://www.medtees.com/content/ABIMComplaint.pdf
Our investigation continues and additional claims are still being considered.
With the Complaint now on file we expect ABIM to aggressively seek dismissal, after which discovery will get underway. To help level the playing field over the next several months we are launching “GoFundMe 2.0" with the goal of raising an additional $250,000. The website and link are unchanged, the current goal has simply been increased.
I was honored to be the first person to make a donation toward the original goal in the amount of $1,000, and I am proud to be the first to show my continuing commitment by donating another $2,500 to PPA’s latest GoFundMe campaign. You can show your commitment by making your donation now.
While many of us donated more, the average contribution has been $210. That, of course, is a drop in the bucket compared to what MOC costs each and every one of us. If our original donors can give again at that level and an additional 240 contributors join us, we will quickly reach our new goal. As before, all contributions regardless of amount are enormously appreciated.
This remains a private campaign and cannot be publicly accessed without the above link. If you desire an additional level of anonymity/privacy, you can designate your contribution as anonymous. As before, you also have the option to add a “tip” to help GoFundMe maintain its platform. Any “tip” is entirely voluntary, goes directly to GoFundMe, and will not be applied to our goal.
For those wanting to send a check in lieu of using this site, please earmark your check for "Legal Fund" and send it to:
Practicing Physicians of America, Inc.
876 Loop 337, Building 101
New Braunfels, TX 78130
We could not have reached this point without you, and I hope you will continue to help in the fight to take down MOC™ -- for your own benefit and the benefit of all of us.
Westby G. Fisher, MD
Member, Executive Board
Practicing Physicians of America, Inc.
I am thrilled to update you on the status of our campaign to end MOC™. The initial goal of $150,000 in seed money was realized in under six months, with over 750 contributors. And as you surely know, due in part to your generous assistance, four of our colleagues recently filed federal class action antitrust claims against the American Board of Internal Medicine (ABIM). A copy of the Complaint can be downloaded at http://www.medtees.com/content/ABIMComplaint.pdf
Our investigation continues and additional claims are still being considered.
With the Complaint now on file we expect ABIM to aggressively seek dismissal, after which discovery will get underway. To help level the playing field over the next several months we are launching “GoFundMe 2.0" with the goal of raising an additional $250,000. The website and link are unchanged, the current goal has simply been increased.
I was honored to be the first person to make a donation toward the original goal in the amount of $1,000, and I am proud to be the first to show my continuing commitment by donating another $2,500 to PPA’s latest GoFundMe campaign. You can show your commitment by making your donation now.
While many of us donated more, the average contribution has been $210. That, of course, is a drop in the bucket compared to what MOC costs each and every one of us. If our original donors can give again at that level and an additional 240 contributors join us, we will quickly reach our new goal. As before, all contributions regardless of amount are enormously appreciated.
This remains a private campaign and cannot be publicly accessed without the above link. If you desire an additional level of anonymity/privacy, you can designate your contribution as anonymous. As before, you also have the option to add a “tip” to help GoFundMe maintain its platform. Any “tip” is entirely voluntary, goes directly to GoFundMe, and will not be applied to our goal.
For those wanting to send a check in lieu of using this site, please earmark your check for "Legal Fund" and send it to:
Practicing Physicians of America, Inc.
876 Loop 337, Building 101
New Braunfels, TX 78130
We could not have reached this point without you, and I hope you will continue to help in the fight to take down MOC™ -- for your own benefit and the benefit of all of us.
Westby G. Fisher, MD
Member, Executive Board
Practicing Physicians of America, Inc.
Gasmandster
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I can't emphasize strongly enough how bad the SimSTAT modules are. They fall into the classic "guess what I'm thinking" pattern of teaching, but with far less education than most. After plunking down a grand, you'll be faced with computer "games" that waste an hour on orientations and intro's before being put into a kludgy "simulation". As things deteriorate, you quickly realize that things you'd normally do are not available as options, and what you might do takes needed time with many, many dead clicks to find the action you want. Sadly, unlike the AHA ACLS simulator, you can't pause this dog while you struggle to find out how to "tell the surgeon to level the bed" or to "give dantrolene". By the time you find it, IF you find it, the patient's dead and you're kicked to a 'debrief' that in essence says "you failed. Guess what we're thinking" and you have to start all over. Can't say it enough, stay away from this thing and pursue free options for part 4 as others here have mentioned.
Gasmandster
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SimSTAT is a poster child for fostering anger against the ABA and MOCA
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They’re designed for you to fail the first few times. I fought it a couple times before contacting their support, who told me just that. It’s ridiculous.
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So it’s not a test of competence but of gamesmanship.
Just like life I suppose....
