When do you guys think premeds will realize DOs are = to MDs?

[moudim]

Hello everyone! I have always looked around the forums and haven't really posted anything, so I decided to join and ask a question that I have always been wondering.

This might be a bit controversial, but I am about to start med school at an M.D. school (dream come true). In my eyes as an undergrad I always looked at DO's = to MD's, and therefore applied to both schools. I decided the MD acceptance over DO's just for the mere fact that it is in my hometown and thats where I want to practice when I am a doctor. It is also where I will graduate undergrad from. But, I know so many people in my undergrad who always downtalk DO's when I really believe (based on my clinical experience, research, volunteering in health care settings, and observing both doctors) that they are indistinguishable.

Also what confuses me is that when my peers downtalk DO's they always claim that residency programs prefer DO's (there is some truth to that). But, a lot of the DO's that I know end up taking the USMLE step 1, and those who score really well should be given a fair chance in my opinion.

On the upside, I know with the merger of residencies this should bias in undergrad is going to be fading away. Also, I know in practice nobody cares about DO's and MD's as long as you treat them and you are just as respected by your colleagues. So I genuinely think its mainly a naive pre-med mentality.

But that's just me. I believe in fairness and I believe that all the DO's work their butts off to get to where they are and premeds should be proud to get into any med school.

What do you guys think will this exist throughout our lifetime? (Sorry if I offended anyone or opened a controversial topic).

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[Roxas]

Joined: Today
Messages: 1
Starts off with an MD/DO post

 

[moudim]

Joined: Today
Messages: 1
Starts off with an MD/DO post

^^ Sorry if I said anything wrong, but I never really made an account I just used to go on the allopathic school specific forums/ osteopathic school specific forums and read about school IIs etc. It was just a question I was wondering about did you read what I said in the body?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

DOs are equal to MDs after residency, but I honestly don't think anyone should pick DO school as their first choice given the quality of schools and rotation sites. When the AOA stops opening schools and branch campuses in random locations and get us up to LCME standards, we will then see a true parity of degrees.

 

[doing_all_the_things]

^^ Sorry if I said anything wrong, but I never really made an account I just used to go on the allopathic school specific forums/ osteopathic school specific forums and read about school IIs etc. It was just a question I was wondering about did you read what I said in the body?

These kinds of posts come up pretty often, but this is a somewhat unique question in that it deals with pre-med attitudes instead of those of residency directors. But I believe it will probably never change, at least not at it's core. This is because of the nature of the pre-med student. For every pre-med that wants to be a doctor because they are passionate about practicing medicine there are 10 that want it because of the associated prestige/money. That is to say that the majority of pre-meds are less concerned about being a good physician and more concerned about if they are perceived to be a good physician. These kinds of people define their own worth based on these perceptions.

The downtalking also occurs at the Ivy school level were you have people criticizing the state MD school and picking apart their match lists. And then also at the specialty level where you have one specialty downtalking other specialties saying things like "they're this kind of doctor because they weren't good enough to be the kind of doctor I am." Remember that there are people that forego full scholarships at less prestigious universities so that they may attend a more prestigious one.

MDs and DOs are fundamentally the same, even more so now with single accreditation. But physician credibility can only be truly established by experience and patient outcomes. Pre-meds have neither.

 

[DO2015CA]

These kinds of posts come up pretty often, but this is a somewhat unique question in that it deals with pre-med attitudes instead of those of residency directors. But I believe it will probably never change, at least not at it's core. This is because of the nature of the pre-med student. For every pre-med that wants to be a doctor because they are passionate about practicing medicine there are 10 that want it because of the associated prestige/money. That is to say that the majority of pre-meds are less concerned about being a good physician and more concerned about if they are perceived to be a good physician. These kinds of people define their own worth based on these perceptions.

The downtalking also occurs at the Ivy school level were you have people criticizing the state MD school and picking apart their match lists. And then also at the specialty level where you have one specialty downtalking other specialties saying things like "they're this kind of doctor because they weren't good enough to be the kind of doctor I am." Remember that there are people that forego full scholarships at less prestigious universities so that they may attend a more prestigious one.

MDs and DOs are fundamentally the same, even more so now with single accreditation. But physician credibility can only be truly established by experience and patient outcomes. Pre-meds have neither.

I actually really like this response because it focuses more pecking order state of mind rather than actually hating on DOs philosophy. It continues throughout medicine and really a lot of careers. (Mechanical engineer students down talk civil engineer students. At least at my UG)

I think the MD v DO of undergrad turns to the specialist v primary care residencies in medical school and so on and so forth.

There will always be a perceived pecking order. Best to not let it bother you

 

[doing_all_the_things]

I actually really like this response because it focuses more pecking order state of mind rather than actually hating on DOs philosophy. It continues throughout medicine and really a lot of careers. (Mechanical engineer students down talk civil engineer students. At least at my UG)

I think the MD v DO of undergrad turns to the specialist v primary care residencies in medical school and so on and so forth.

There will always be a perceived pecking order. Best to not let it bother you

I've met exactly one one electrical engineer in my life and all they did was talk about how dumb the other kinds of engineers were. Such is life lol.

 

[kbeitz]

MDs are not the only ones talking down about their counterparts. There's plenty negative to say about MD curricula, like junior "research" crap or whatever you fill your time with instead of learning omm.

These two groups are equal only in the sense that they will both have to fight to earn the respect of their peers when they earn their degrees. I, too, can write MD on a piece of Caribbean toilet paper.

Point is, everybody compares and bashes so long as there a meaningful comparison to be made, and premeds like you are ants on a sidewalk in the grand scheme, just as I am an ant to a resident and attending physician. You don't know how little you matter.

 

[kenjixshadow]

MDs are not the only ones talking down about their counterparts. There's plenty negative to say about MD curricula, like junior "research" crap or whatever you fill your time with instead of learning omm.

1) That junior research can be put on their residency application.
2) Many schools don't have these extra-curriculum. Can't say the same for DO schools where OMM is mandatory.
I rather do these research rather than learn the quackery aren't applicable in evidence-based medicine.

 

[kbeitz]

1) That junior research can be put on their residency application.
2) Many schools don't have these extra-curriculum. Can't say the same for DO schools where OMM is mandatory.
I rather do these research rather than learn the quackery aren't applicable in evidence-based medicine.

How is any of this relevant to my point? If anything your opinion only serves the premed mindset the OP mentioned. Why not just respond to the OP if you believe the premed mentality matters.

 

[Wjldenver]

There will always be a perceived pecking order. Best to not let it bother you

This is true in a number of professional fields. ...Medicine, Business, and Law to name a few. Here's the parallel: DO grads in general have fewer career opportunities than MD grads just like graduates from the lower tier Business and Law schools have fewer career opportunities than graduates from the top schools in these fields. Yeah, there are always outliers in every field, so that is why I said "in general".

 

[GobbelyWat]

lol I'm a 3rd year med student and my classmates STILL don't realize it. Some even regret coming here over a Caribbean school. I am dead serious.

 

[JustPlainBill]

When do I think premeds will realize DOs are = to MDs?

1) When we stop entertaining their inane commentary/questioning, period. This sort of argument is beneath the dignity of the profession and should really just be ignored as mental tripe.

2) When they realize their place in the profession -- which is an aspirant, not anyone worth listening to regarding their opinion of the profession or things within it. They're not even in training camp yet but they want to talk trash about the major leaguers.

3) I fear that this type of thing has been encouraged by the use of the word "provider" to indicate anyone involved in the practice of medicine, be that physician, PA or NP as if the education and training were all equal. Hey stud, a pre-meds place in the grand scheme of things is to sit down, shut up, pay attention and maybe you'll learn something. When I was a pre-med, trying to get in, you can doggone sure bet I was making polite inquiries to understand and realized it was not my place to question who was what until I had been through the training and earned my spurs.

Yes, I realize this will sound arrogant, but it's time to re-establish who fits where in the food chain. You'll notice very few attendings participate in these idiotic discussions -- we're busy treating patients with our colleagues, regardless of what is behind their name......

 

[W19]

In a foreseeable future MD/DO = NP = PA... State legislatures are diluting medical degrees (MD/DO) right in front of our eyes...

 

[OrdinaryDO]

In a foreseeable future MD/DO = NP = PA... State legislatures are diluting medical degrees (MD/DO) right in front of our eyes...

This will never happen..they are strictly mid-levels, created to fill the gaps of the physician shortage in areas that are less rigorous and less risk affiliated.

As for the OP's question..the kids at my undergrad didn't even know what a DO was (these are pre-meds). We had a speaker come to tell us about ARCOM opening about 2 years back and it wa unbelievable how little they knew.

 

[Jinxapotato]

In a foreseeable future MD/DO = NP = PA... State legislatures are diluting medical degrees (MD/DO) right in front of our eyes...

I think the day that they receive the same pay/opportunity as a physician will be the last day of their existence. The only reason they exist is to serve as a cheaper alternative to a lack of medical professionals, and that is their sole advantage over a fully trained physician.

 

[Azete]

I think the day that they receive the same pay/opportunity as a physician will be the last day of their existence. The only reason they exist is to serve as a cheaper alternative to a lack of medical professionals, and that is their sole advantage over a fully trained physician.

This. Why would any business hire someone vastly less qualified for the same amount of money? The only competitive advantage they have is money, and for some reason they don't realize that equal pay would increase their unemployment rate tenfold.

While we're on the topic though, let's not pretend physician training isn't a pile of donkey ****. We go through 4 years of undergrad and another 4 years of med school just for the privilege of actually learning medicine in residency. That number could easily be cut in half without any net loss.

 

[W19]

This. Why would any business hire someone vastly less qualified for the same amount of money? The only competitive advantage they have is money, and for some reason they don't realize that equal pay would increase their unemployment rate tenfold.

While we're on the topic though, let's not pretend physician training isn't a pile of donkey ****. We go through 4 years of undergrad and another 4 years of med school just for the privilege of actually learning medicine in residency. That number could easily be cut in half without any net loss.

I have been saying that here for the longest... The 4+4 undergrad and med school could have been cut to 3+3 easily without even affecting our profession at all...

 

[ortnakas]

 

[deafdealer]

I think the day that they receive the same pay/opportunity as a physician will be the last day of their existence. The only reason they exist is to serve as a cheaper alternative to a lack of medical professionals, and that is their sole advantage over a fully trained physician.

There is already an equal pay law in Oregon set to take effect soon. Hopefully it sets a precedent. I got into an argument with an NP who was adamant that their education was equal to ours, and that it was merely just an alternative route. It will be funny when they see how many admins/HR actually share that sentiment

 

[IslandStyle808]

There is already an equal pay law in Oregon set to take effect soon. Hopefully it sets a precedent. I got into an argument with an NP who was adamant that their education was equal to ours, and that it was merely just an alternative route. It will be funny when they see how many admins/HR actually share that sentiment

I could imagine two things happening if this law passes

1) They will lose a ton of docs in Oregon
2) Hospitals/clinics will pick a doctor before they pick an PA or NP.

Watch as this law actually comes to bite Oregon and their midlevels in the @ss.

 

[deafdealer]

I could imagine two things happening if this law passes

1) They will lose a ton of docs in Oregon
2) Hospitals/clinics will pick a doctor before they pick an PA or NP.

Watch as this law actually comes to bite Oregon and their midlevels in the @ss.

Law already passed--will be taking effect soon

 

[JustPlainBill]

There is already an equal pay law in Oregon set to take effect soon. Hopefully it sets a precedent. I got into an argument with an NP who was adamant that their education was equal to ours, and that it was merely just an alternative route. It will be funny when they see how many admins/HR actually share that sentiment

Ask them to define the difference between SIRS vs Sepsis vs Septic shock...

 

[deafdealer]

Ask them to define the difference between SIRS vs Sepsis vs Septic shock...

"I don't know the answer but I can look that up. That doesn't make you a better 'provider' than me."

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Who gives a damn what any pre-med thinks. We are the ones living it. They are on the sidelines in the current moment. Can't stop for the haters fam.

 

[chibaddie]

Who gives a damn what any pre-med thinks. We are the ones living it. They are on the sidelines in the current moment. Can't stop for the haters fam.

Hahah please tell me you made friends.

 

[deleted731525]

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then they will realize, and not before.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Hahah please tell me you made friends.

I did make "friends"... and cut them off when I realized they weren't good for my mental sanity and were like the typical neurotic pre-med on here.

I have buddies who didn't want me shadowing the same doc they were and told me they were "too busy" to take on another student.

What did I do? I simply asked the doc and asked if they were willing to let me come in for a few times a month.

So yeah.. my experience with pre-meds has been kind of murky to say the least.

I'm in med school now and they are A) reapplying , B) heading to the Caribbean, or C) gave up and realized medicine wasn't worth it because they didn't want to hustle and do the leg work.

I was a pre-med too you know.

But when there are posts like this and every frickin' pre med just believes what they read on the internet and spewing a bunch of bull is not doing us any good.

Here's an idea... go SHADOW a DO... or maybe like 5 or 6 in different fields.

Not just family practice.

I shadowed plenty of DO cardiologists, neurologists, ER docs, etc. etc. etc.

You're my homie Chi. WE good fam. But I'm just sayin', a lot of the pre-meds that I am annoyed of are the ones who believe bull**** without doing their OWN research with valid data (such as NRMP reports, PD surveys, etc.) or are the type to try to one up one another and not be supportive in anyway possible.

Our generation has all of this info available.. it's a quick google search away.

Sure.. the OPP/OMM crap makes me want to blow my brains out at times... but the reality of med school is that it is very very different than what the typical pre-med fantasizes about.

DO is DO. We take MD courses, and also add in about 200-300 hours of manipulation. A lot of times, DOs cater towards those interested in primary care.

MD is MD. MDs focus on research a lot more.

NEWSFLASH... not every MD is matching into Derm and Neurosurgery at Harvard. As DO is not matching into every FM and IM spot.

They are both physicians. They are both U.S. entities in terms of licensing, education, and practice.

This ain't no "middle of the mall" **** fam.

Yafeelzme bruh?

P.S.

To all of my REAL pre-meds out there that aren't trying to gun down their competition, are sincere, honest, and hardworking, I'm here for ya and I mess with you the long way. I hope all of y'all don't fall for the bull and learn to make your own decisions based on your OWN experiences with a little bit of solid advice from folks on this website that know what they are talking about.

Salute.

 

[chibaddie]

I did make friends... and cut them off when I realized they were not good for my mental sanity and were like the typical neurotic pre-med on here.

I don't carry dead weight and I don't mess with uninspired and lazy folk who give up on the first try.

I'm in med school now and they are A) reapplying , B) heading to the Caribbean, or C) gave up and realized medicine wasn't worth it because they didn't want to hustle and do the leg work.

I was a pre-med too you know.

But when there are posts like this and every frickin' pre med just believes what they read on the internet and spewing a bunch of bull is not doing us any good.

Here's an idea... go SHADOW a DO... or maybe like 5 or 6 in different fields.

Not just family practice.

I shadowed plenty of DO cardiologists, neurologists, ER docs, etc. etc. etc.

You're my homie Chi. WE good fam. But I'm just sayin', a lot of the pre-meds that I am annoyed of are the ones who believe bull**** without doing their OWN research with valid data (such as NRMP reports, PD surveys, etc.).

Our generation has all of this info available.. it's a quick google search away.

Sure.. the OPP/OMM crap makes me want to blow my brains out at times... but the reality of med school is that it is very very different than what the typical pre-med fantasizes about.

DO is DO. We take MD courses, and also add in about 200-300 hours of manipulation. A lot of times, DOs cater towards those interested in primary care.

MD is MD. MDs focus on research a lot more.

NEWSFLASH... not every MD is matching into Derm and Neurosurgery at Harvard.

They are both physicians.

Yafeelzme bruh?

Omg this rant was beautiful.... yeah bruh I feel you. Preach that ****.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Omg this rant was beautiful.... yeah bruh I feel you. Preach that ****.

One.






Hunnid.

 

[chibaddie]

One.






Hunnid.

Hahahah bang bang. Wanna confess who knows what they're talking about? 😉

 

[Mad Jack]

When Harvard opens a DO school.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

When Harvard opens a DO school.

Jack.. bruh.. pleeze.


It's "HAH-VUHHHHDDD".

lolz

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

.

 

[chibaddie]

I wouldn't know fam.

Real G's move in silence like lasagna. 😉

Shouts out to that boy weezy.

#FreeWeezy

Oh of course... You are so hood. Referencing 6 foot 7 foot... 5 years old man.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Oh of course... You are so hood. Referencing 6 foot 7 foot... 5 years old man.

Ur point being...?

Wayne still goes.

 

[chibaddie]

Ur point being...?

Wayne still goes.

My point being that you know your stuff, cause it's an old ref. Duh.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

.

 

[chibaddie]

Good save.

21, 21, 21.

Oh whatever. Yo last name ain't even Savage so don't be flexin.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

/

 

[ToKingdomCome]

When the MCATs are higher. Just like when medical students poop on FM (unjustly) somewhat due to being the least competitive/lower board scores, premeds will have the same mentality when applying to med school. The whole thing is stupid

 

[AlteredScale]

What in the hell is going on here with these R&B singer reference shenanigans.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

When Harvard opens a DO school.

Actually I think premeds would still choose California northstate over Harvard DO just so they can put MD after their name. Don't underestimate the stupidity!

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Actually I think premeds would still choose California northstate over Harvard DO just so they can put MD after their name. Don't underestimate the stupidity!

Haha best exemplified by those going to the Caribbean and justifying their decision by stating how "it's one of the big 3 schools!"

 

[073116]

What in the hell is going on here with these R&B singer reference shenanigans.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[cbrons]

When do you guys think premeds will realize DOs are = to MDs?

Who cares? What "premeds" (aka social justice droids and/or narcissistic spoiled hyper-insulated zombie children) think is completely irrelevant to people interacting with the real world.

 

[doing_all_the_things]

Who cares? What "premeds" (aka social justice droids and/or narcissistic spoiled hyper-insulated zombie children) think is completely irrelevant to people interacting with the real world.

I disagree with with this. Premeds LOVE talking about their future careers in medicine. Think about how often you talked about the notion of becoming a physician with your friends and family when you were a premed. It isn't good for the public image of DOs when premeds are disparaging osteopathic physicians to their grandma during thanksgiving dinner.

In addition, there are many excellent applicants that will completely ignore the prospect of attending a DO school when filling out their applications because of what they hear from other premeds. That reduces their potential of getting accepted somewhere while also deprives DO school of quality applicants. Its a fact that qualified applicants get rejected year after year for no good reason at all. Many of them don't even consider DO as an option because of misinformed premeds.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

.

 

[cbrons]

I disagree with with this. Premeds LOVE talking about their future careers in medicine. Think about how often you talked about the notion of becoming a physician with your friends and family when you were a premed. It isn't good for the public image of DOs when premeds are disparaging osteopathic physicians to their grandma during thanksgiving dinner.

Most grandparents know the children of this generation (including their grandchildren) are coddled automatons. As such, their opinions are almost universally irrelevant and unimportant.

To illustrate the point: imagine an actual D.O. physician who has a real job in the real world who pays his own bills and taxes.

Now imagine your average undergraduate student of this current younger generation: by all objective standards, basically an overfed, cowardly triggerbot and government slave-baby.

Now ask yourself if you think person B's opinion on person A matters? Then ask yourself if person B's opinion matters on anything. Both questions are rhetorical.

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[073116]

Most grandparents know the children of this generation (including their grandchildren) are coddled automatons. As such, their opinions are almost universally irrelevant and unimportant.
To illustrate the point: imagine an actual D.O. physician who has a real job in the real world who pays his own bills and taxes.
Now imagine your average undergraduate student of this current younger generation: by all objective standards, basically an overfed, cowardly triggerbot and government slave-baby.
Now ask yourself if you think person B's opinion on person A matters? Then ask yourself if person B's opinion matters on anything. Both questions are rhetorical.

LOL, you should have seen our classmates facebook page - moaning and crying, threatening to unfriend anyone who voted Trump lol and announcing that life is over, world is over and there is no point in life whatsoever anymore... and yet the very next day they go to Starbucks and order a Grande with a Muffin and consume it gladly and joyfully before the lectures like nothing happened lol. Especially one girl who is whiter than milk and has white family and white dad male - and her posts fulled with anger toward white males lol. I still want to aks her if she realizes that she is basically directing hate toward her own dad and everyone on the family photos she so likes to share and post lol. Kids these days have absence of reality and I even doubt experience and age will cure it