When is a DNP a Doctor?

[UnoMas]

Sure. But I really want to know what you think the degree IS.

To let nurses with BSN advance their "practice"

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[anbuitachi]

Sure. But I really want to know what you think the degree IS.

something that wont be leading to bankruptcy

 

[762513]

To let nurses with BSN advance their practice

something that wont be leading to bankruptcy

It’s fine. Many people (not necessarily you guys) have extremely strong opinions on the DNP, but most people have very little actual knowledge. A DNP is basically a MPH/MSN/PhD(lite) all rolled into one. The DNP can be achieved in executive leadership, informatics, clinical nurse specialist, and other areas of nursing. A DNP is not a doctor of nurse practitioners. There’s no reason the content I described above cannot be delivered online just like online PhD and MPH programs from reputable schools are doing across the country.

 

[UnoMas]

It’s fine. Many people (not necessarily you guys) have extremely strong opinions on the DNP, but most people have very little actual knowledge. A DNP is basically a MPH/MSN/PhD(lite) all rolled into one. The DNP can be achieved in executive leadership, informatics, clinical nurse specialist, and other areas of nursing. A DNP is not a doctor of nurse practitioners. There’s no reason the content I described above cannot be delivered online just like online PhD and MPH programs from reputable schools are doing across the country.

Advanced Practice Nursing: Do more in less time in a more convenient fashion and be better than you.
Except none of these online DNP programs are reputable

 

[762513]

Advanced Practice Nursing: Do more in less time in a more convenient fashion and be better than you.
Except none of these online DNP programs are reputable

Did you read my post? Can you tell me what an advanced practice nurse actually is?

Edit: clearly you can’t.

 

[anbuitachi]

It’s fine. Many people (not necessarily you guys) have extremely strong opinions on the DNP, but most people have very little actual knowledge. A DNP is basically a MPH/MSN/PhD(lite) all rolled into one. The DNP can be achieved in executive leadership, informatics, clinical nurse specialist, and other areas of nursing. A DNP is not a doctor of nurse practitioners. There’s no reason the content I described above cannot be delivered online just like online PhD and MPH programs from reputable schools are doing across the country.

i think the issue is its a doctorate degree but it doesn't seem to have the rigor of other doctorate degrees. from talking to nurses it feels like online DNPs are inline with offline DNPs. but ask any lawyer or PhD and theyd tell you online JD/phds are pretty much garbage. how does online PhDs work anyway. who are you defending your thesis to? who is mentoring you with your thesis?

 

[762513]

i think the issue is its a doctorate degree but it doesn't seem to have the rigor of other doctorate degrees. from talking to nurses it feels like online DNPs are inline with offline DNPs. but ask any lawyer or PhD and theyd tell you online JD/phds are pretty much garbage. how does online PhDs work anyway. who are you defending your thesis to? who is mentoring you with your thesis?

All online PhDs and DNP’s have mandatory on campus weeks and defenses of both prelims and final defenses. Even online delivered content requires the students to go to campus for these requirements.

 

[762513]

i think the issue is its a doctorate degree but it doesn't seem to have the rigor of other doctorate degrees. from talking to nurses it feels like online DNPs are inline with offline DNPs. but ask any lawyer or PhD and theyd tell you online JD/phds are pretty much garbage. how does online PhDs work anyway. who are you defending your thesis to? who is mentoring you with your thesis?

All online PhDs and DNP’s have mandatory on campus weeks and defenses of both prelims and final defenses. Even online delivered content requires the students to go to campus for these requirements.

 

[anbuitachi]

All online PhDs and DNP’s have mandatory on campus weeks and defenses of both prelims and final defenses. Even online delivered content requires the students to go to campus for these requirements.

I just randomly went to a online phd website to take a look. it says, no attendance, and no student interaction.. but anyway, phd is another one of those degrees that can be very poorly regulated. i remember reading years ago that tens of thousands of Phds are purchased without even doing courses. and it seems like you can do a PhD in anything.

 

[762513]

I just randomly went to a online phd website to take a look. it says, no attendance, and no student interaction.. but anyway, phd is another one of those degrees that can be very poorly regulated. i remember reading years ago that tens of thousands of Phds are purchased without even doing courses. and it seems like you can do a PhD in anything.

I guess I’ll just take your word for it then. Good night.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

So about a third of people who replied don't think that someone who has earned the title of "Doctor" should ever be able to use it. Even away from the bedside or in academic roles. Quite interesting.

 

[Splenda88]

Doctor in a healthcare setting usually means 'physician'. It might create confusion if DNP, PharmD, DPT, etc... introduce themselves as doctors, but I don't think it's a big issue that physicians should fight over... Most patients think that everyone in the hospital with a white coat is a doctor (aka physician) anyway.

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

I don't think PharmDs, DPTs or DNPs should call themselves doctors. Because we're all in the same setting with medical doctors it creates confusion.
If any of those people are teaching, I'm not even sure they wouldaddress themselves as "Dr".
Now, in a truly academic setting, i.e. your philosophy class, there will be no confusion as to what kind of doctor a professor is if he/she calls himself "Dr Socrates".

 

[SLC]

Would you consider Podiatrists, Dentists, or Optometrists physicians? What if they did a residency?

If so, why, and if not, why not?

Old post, I know, but it doesn’t look like anyone responded how I would so here it goes:

Those professions are not physicians in that they do not possess training allowing them an “unrestricted license to practice medicine and perform surgery”.

In short, they are allied health providers but their scope of practice is limited even in training.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

Old post, I know, but it doesn’t look like anyone responded how I would so here it goes:

Those professions are not physicians in that they do not possess training allowing them an “unrestricted license to practice medicine and perform surgery”.

In short, they are allied health providers but their scope of practice is limited even in training.

Depends on the state if podiatrist are physicians. Federally they are considered physicians. But if you define physician as unrestricted license to practice medicine and surgery then podiatrist certainly don't qualify under the unrestricted part. Although practically they function the same usually as any other physician within their scope.

I would challenge all that comment on podiatric training to actually research what training we undergo. You may be surprised.
One correction in that scope is not limited during training. We are expected to perform as any other medical student on rotations including off service. Residency also includes off service rotations where there is the expectation to perform as any other resident.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

Depends on the state if podiatrist are physicians. Federally they are considered physicians. But if you define physician as unrestricted license to practice medicine and surgery then podiatrist certainly don't qualify under the unrestricted part. Although practically they function the same usually as any other physician within their scope.

I would challenge all that comment on podiatric training to actually research what training we undergo. You may be surprised.
One correction in that scope is not limited during training. We are expected to perform as any other medical student on rotations including off service. Residency also includes off service rotations where there is the expectation to perform as any other resident.

I learned something. Thanks!

 

[SLC]

I would challenge all that comment on podiatric training to actually research what training we undergo. You may be surprised.
One correction in that scope is not limited during training. We are expected to perform as any other medical student on rotations including off service. Residency also includes off service rotations where there is the expectation to perform as any other resident.

Based on my review of the curriculum at Temple (Temple Pod school curriculum) which I understand to be one of the higher regarded podiatry programs; and my experience with podiatry residents when I was a resident; I’d say that Podiatry training is very much limited in scope. As it should be as you guys aren’t training to be MD/DO (I.e. unrestricted license).

The few off service rotations (IM mainly) are the only time you aren’t training directly in podiatry from what I can tell. And while I can’t claim to know what your boards are like; I’m willing to wager they’re designed to test clinical knowledge in the practice of podiatry; and there are not questions about gynecology; or pulmonary physiology etc.

That’s not a knock. Please don’t take it that way.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Temple to my understanding does not take classes with medical students.

A third of the DPM schools take the same exact courses as DO students minus obgyn and psychology/psychiatry (western, midwestern, DMU). I’d argue that if someone considers a DO a physician, then a podiatrist who trained and sat next to the DOs and took the exact same tests as them should also be considered a physician too.

The difference comes with boards. Pods, much like DOs, take a different set a boards than MDs. From my understanding, Pod boards are easier compared to USMLE. However, DOs were considered physicians even when they took different boards, COMLEX.

Based on my review of the curriculum at Temple (Temple Pod school curriculum) which I understand to be one of the higher regarded podiatry programs; and my experience with podiatry residents when I was a resident; I’d say that Podiatry training is very much limited in scope. As it should be as you guys aren’t training to be MD/DO (I.e. unrestricted license)

That’s not a knock. Please don’t take it that way.

 

[SLC]

Temple to my understanding does not take classes with medical students.

A third of the DPM schools take the same exact courses as DO students minus obgyn and psychology/psychiatry (western, midwestern, DMU). I’d argue that if someone considers a DO a physician, then a podiatrist who trained and sat next to the DOs and took the exact same tests as them should also be considered a physician too.

Here’s the thing though, it isn’t the coursework we take that makes us physicians; it’s the work we’re licensed to do.

The difference comes with boards. Pods, much like DOs, take a different set a boards than MDs. From my understanding, Pod boards are easier compared to USMLE. However, DOs were considered physicians even when they took different boards, COMLEX.

COMLEX and USMLE are both comprehensive licensing exams for physicians; different in name only (though many argue question quality differs too). Both tests cover the exact same material; save for the addition of OMM for COMLEX.

Source: My own experience as a DO who took USMLE 1-2 and COMLEX 1-3.

MD and DO curricula are also identical (again save for the addition of OMM for DO students). While Pod curriculum isn’t (by your own admission, even at the pod schools that are affiliated with DO programs, the podiatry students sit some core medicine classes out. And looking at AZPOD, it appears the shared coursework likely ends after the basic sciences.

This is getting inane though; and I can see it’s not heading anywhere productive so that’s the last I’ll say on the matter.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss DPMs and lump them into the “allied health provider” bin. That makes it sound like Pods are nurse practitioners.

I think the broader point is when someone is considered a “physician”. You could argue that DOs are “more” of a physician than MDs because they learn extra information. Where is the defining point? I guess that’s why there was a massive (successful) effort to merge MD and DO residency training.

What is the definition of a physician? Is it someone who holds an MD? Or is it someone who is fully liscenced after residency?

Are dentists considered physicians? What if they go through the DDS/MD? Do they study the whole body or just the neck up?

If a DPM did an MD residency in foot and ankle surgery, would they then be considered a “physician”?

Here’s the thing though, it isn’t the coursework we take that makes us physicians; it’s the work we’re licensed to do.



COMLEX and USMLE are both comprehensive licensing exams for physicians; different in name only (though many argue question quality differs too). Both tests cover the exact same material; save for the addition of OMM for COMLEX.

Source: My own experience as a DO who took USMLE 1-2 and COMLEX 1-3.

MD and DO curricula are also identical (again save for the addition of OMM for DO students). While Pod curriculum isn’t (by your own admission, even at the pod schools that are affiliated with DO programs, the podiatry students sit some core medicine classes out. And looking at AZPOD, it appears the shared coursework likely ends after the basic sciences.

This is getting inane though; and I can see it’s not heading anywhere productive so that’s the last I’ll say on the matter.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

Based on my review of the curriculum at Temple (Temple Pod school curriculum) which I understand to be one of the higher regarded podiatry programs; and my experience with podiatry residents when I was a resident; I’d say that Podiatry training is very much limited in scope. As it should be as you guys aren’t training to be MD/DO (I.e. unrestricted license).

The few off service rotations (IM mainly) are the only time you aren’t training directly in podiatry from what I can tell. And while I can’t claim to know what your boards are like; I’m willing to wager they’re designed to test clinical knowledge in the practice of podiatry; and there are not questions about gynecology; or pulmonary physiology etc.

That’s not a knock. Please don’t take it that way.

3rd year rotations depends on the school including IM, Vascular, EM, General, Ortho usually. Boards are full body medicine with added Lower Body Anatomy. We are expected to know all the systems and are tested as such except obgyn and pschy. But obviously no where near the difficulty of the USMLE. I'd just like to add below when grouping physician and non physician groups.

But like I said no ones opinions really matter as it depends on the state in podiatrist are physicians or not.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

3rd year rotations depends on the school including IM, Vascular, EM, General, Ortho usually. Boards are full body medicine with added Lower Body Anatomy. We are expected to know all the systems and are tested as such except obgyn and pschy. But obviously no where near the difficulty of the USMLE. I'd just like to add below when grouping physician and non physician groups.

But like I said no ones opinions really matter as it depends on the state in podiatrist are physicians or not.

Your chart is inaccurate. Both DPTs and ODs have 4 year professional schools.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

The chart doesn’t change the fact that DPM’s aren’t licensed to do anything above the knee. And that they are allied health providers. But who even cares? What’s this need to be called “physician” about? What do the semantics effect?


The way I see it:
All physicians are licensed to practice the full scope of medicine.

MD and DO are licensed and legally able to do the work DPM does, but DPM isn’t licensed to do the work MD/DO do.

End of argument.

I don't want to argue and respect your opinion and thank you for thoughtful discussion.
The need to be call physician is less about trying to be like md/do and more about reimbursements and access to care. For example under medicaid podiatrist are physicians while under medicade they are not. This allows states to use podiatric services as optional. Limb salvalge is a big part of podiatry and diabetic feet our costing our healthcare alot of money. Some individuals with medicade will loose access to care. So I understand its just words. But in laws and legislation words do matter. Look into the HELLPP act for more information if you care.

The chart is from a study done in California for equivalency of the degrees. It is a joint task force of MD/DO/DPM. I have attached the full study if anyone cares.

The DPM is not an unlimited licence like the MD/DO this is an inarguable fact. But all of the specialties operate at expert level within their scope. ENT and Ophthalmology are regional specialties and operate in the same capacity as podiatrist within their region. (From what i've shadowed, i have not researched the full scope of ENT's and Ophthalmologist)

Podiatry is ever evolving. We have increased our educational standards and residency training exponentially in the last 10 years to match the gold standard set by the MD's. So although we may not be there yet we are not midlevels who want to take a shortcuts to being physicians and put patients life at risk. We are evolving our training, much like the DO's had to to do. To meet the gold standard. Because the foot in an integral part of the body and patients are owed expert care.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

Your chart is inaccurate. Both DPTs and ODs have 4 year professional schools.

You are correct I think DPT has 3 and 4 year schools, but I think all OD's schools are 4. I'm not sure though as I have not researched this. I think the point of the chart still stands. The full study is linked in my other post if you care to take a look.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You are correct I think DPT has 3 and 4 year schools, but I think all OD's schools are 4. I'm not sure though as I have not researched this. I think the point of the chart still stands. The full study is linked in my other post if you care to take a look.

I don't actually care in the slightest about what podiatrists call themselves, but if your data has obvious errors it makes it less credible. That's all.