when one spouse has loans and the other doesn't

I

Incandescent

i am an intern who is in a mountain of educational debt from undergrad and medical school. this is for several reasons: 1. i was fortunate enough to get into great private schools for both and preferred them over my state schools, 2. my parents didn't have a whole lot of income relative to the amount of children they had, and 3. my parents weren't the most knowledgeable or responsible people when it came to financial matters. It's not like they were purposefully ignorant, but more like innocently ignorant. They didn't really learn how to properly invest and save until much later in their lives, and as a result they had nothing for my college/grad school education, wedding, etc.

I don't really blame my parents for this. Its hard for me to blame them for not saving since they always provided me with the necessities: clothing, food, shelter, love. I don't feel like I was entitled to get everything paid for by them. Money was always tight in our house but when you live like that, I guess you learn quickly that money does not have to make your world go round, and there are plenty of things that can keep you happy even if you have little fortune and struggle with debt.

That being said, there's no getting around the fact that when it came to finances, we were not savvy with what we had in terms of saving/investing. So, I assumed the debt of my education and worked a few jobs in college/med school to help with my basic needs.

My spouse has the exact opposite situation. Though he also went to private schools, he has only one other sibling and his father likely makes 3-4 times what my father did at his peak. His father still works, is younger than my father by about a decade, and my father has been retired for over a decade. My spouses parents have been able to finance in full my spouse's education (college/med school) and various other expenses (car, etc) for a long time. My spouse earns an income and has assumed responsibility for most of his life now, but has zero educational debt. Additionally, his parents saved a lot for him and are wise when it comes to investing matters.

He inherited from his parents all this knowledge about money. I inherited none of that from my parents, though I am learning. I have made a few mistakes in the past few years (I accumulated some credit card debt helping out family members and was not able to make interest payments on my debt), but have paid off the card debt and am learning how to be more responsible. There's a lot to learn.

My spouse is terrified by my mountain of debt (only educational, nothing else). Understandable...he's never been in debt before. I am not so scared by it since I am used to it now, and I know that with my income potential and ability to live frugally, we will eventually pay it off, even if it takes years. That doesn't bother me. My spouse thinks I am not concerned enough, and tells me so. What really gets me though, is his judgmental attitude about my parents. He blames our situation on them and has no compassion for them whatsoever.

Since my parents had a hard time paying for some of the wedding expenses in a timely fashion, I paid some of the expenses using only some of the money we received as wedding gifts, and my parents said they can pay us back over time (a few hundred a month). I understand that it was my wedding, and this is what they can do. For god sakes, my parents live month to month on social security and a government pension. They are in their seventies and I feel bad for them. I was never one to believe that it was entirely the parents "responsibility" to pay for their daughters wedding, and I'm happy to contribute even if it comes out of our wedding gifts. (My husband's parents helped with the wedding as well, which was very nice of them). As it is my parents feel guilty about the debt that I am in, and that they couldn't provide they way my spouse's parents did.

My spouse is so pissed by this situation and thinks it totally sucks that we had to help out my parents. He thinks this partly because he believes my parents are "supposed" to pay for the wedding, and were "supposed" to pay for my education the way his parents did. He expressed this to his mother and characterized my parents as "unconcerned" which is farthest from the truth. I hate it when wealthy people label the less fortunate as lazy, unconcerned, or stupid. My parents are none of these things. They had very different life circumstances. My inlaws are nice people, but I hate that their son is feeding them lies about what my parents are like.

I understand that he is not used to debt and would find it alarming that I am in so much. But makes me so angry inside that he has NO compassion for my parents, makes judgments about them, and doesn't even try to put himself in their shoes. Granted my parents were not the greatest to him while were engaged - I can certainly blame them for that - but since we were married they have tried to make amends and be nice. I hate it that he thinks money is the most important thing in the world. What kills me is that he expressed to his mother, "I wish I had thought twice before marrying someone in so much debt."

I don't want to talk to him about it since it will end up becoming this huge thing, and we have already fought so much about it. Why is it so hard for him to be compassionate? Why is it so hard for him to be a little forgiving? Am I being unreasonable? I don't know.

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Have you spoken to him about how you feel? About how he comes off as an a-hole? Is there some specific reason he's fixated on the debt? Maybe his parents weren't always as financially strong as they are now?

There are plenty of articles floating around about how student debt is one of the most benign debt there is. You can point him to that. Otherwise, I also don't what the big deal it. He's a physician and you're one too so I'm guessing you'll be making several times the average american salary. I think you'll be fine financially, barring any disasters.

Since he's been shielded from financial responsibility his entire life, have you considered the possibility that he might not change his attitude towards money/debt? I do think men can change but they're often stuck in the precontemplative stage. Is this just an annoyance or do you see this is a real problem? If it's the latter, you might want to start thinking about what you want to do. Marriage counseling, counseling for yourself, fighting about it, divorce, etc etc.

I also find it irritating to meet med students and doctors who act all smug and superior about money when they haven't had to worry about it or make any of it their entire lives. :thumbdown:

-X
 
Did he know about the loans before you were married? It surprises me that he would be so bothered by it now if he did. I don't think it's common for most medical school students to graduate without any educational loans, since even parents who had the money to pay for undergrad probably wouldn't have saved up enough for four more very expensive years.

If you would like to stay married, it might help to understand exactly why it bothers him so much. Does he feel misled because he didn't know the full amount you owed? Or maybe he feels like he should not be responsible for your loans? If his parents have coddled him too much (and it sounds like they might have), you may have a case of a mamma's boy who just realized his new wife isn't his mother.

In any case, letting him know that you have a plan should help his anxiety over your loans. See about getting them deferred until you finish residency, then show him your plan of how much you will pay each month after that. Give him the date that you plan to make your last payment. Also, make sure you have a life insurance policy for at least the amount that you owe.

Whenever you discuss the topic, make sure to call the money you owe "loans" or "educational loans" instead of "debt". Debt has the connotation of something unmanageable and negative. This is an investment, much like a restaurant owner who buys the building before he actually cooks any food.

And just in case, please wait a few more years before starting a family. It could be that he just needs some more time to get used to being married and sharing responsibilities. Working out those issues can be difficult on any marriage, but kids will multiply the problems.

I do wish you the best, and I hope that things work out. Other than this, is he a good guy? Medical life is very stressful, and with both of you being doctors, you're probably having a lot of these discussions when one or both of you are tired or had a bad day, which can make them escalate more than they should. When you're both calm (maybe after a glass of wine), explain your plan once, then every time he brings up the loans after that, just kiss him on the nose and tell him "I'm handling it", and try not to get drawn in to a discussion/argument. (And if he won't drop it, maybe you can bribe him - "Not now, let's go take a *nap*" *wink*wink*)
 
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Get yourselves to counseling post-haste. Monetary disagreements/problems is one of the leading indicators of divorce.

Also, the idea of loaning your parents money to cover the cost of YOUR wedding is pretty sad. If they are in that bad of shape, asking them to pay you back is wrong (my opinion). It was your wedding, not theirs. It is their privilege to help as much as they can, not their responsibility.

Finally, you are both docs, yes? Once residency is over, none of this will be a big deal as long as you live within your means.
 
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i didnt read your whole post, but
1. you should have told him about the debt before you got married
2. he should help you pay for it
 
thanks for the responses. to answer some of your questions...

1. He did know before we married that I was in educational debt, and a lot of it too. He was plenty aware of my debt before and approximately how much. I had discussed it with him ad nauseum. He didn't realize that after deferment, the interest on the loans gets capitalized. That makes him really worried, though in actuality it will not add that much to our overall debt if we stick to an aggressive repayment plan, which I have always been in favor of. He is upset that I did not make payments on the interest accumulating from the undergraduate loans while in med school. I probably could have during two years of med school - I didn't spend money reckelessly, but I was not very educated about smart repayment then and didn't think while I was still receiving loans, that paying other ones back was a priority. The other two years, money was extremely tight (interviewing, getting a car after the other one broke down) and I couldn't make payments on much of anything!

2. He will help me to pay off my loans, in that he will also be earning an income and will try to live a frugal lifestyle, though he does feel that he will be "guilty everytime he wants to buy something." I told him if we create budget for discretionary spending and stick with it, we never have to feel guilty. He begrudgingly agrees, and we created a budget, so I guess that is progress. He is going to make sacrifices for my educational loans so in that I am grateful and thankful that I will have some help.

3. I have brought up the subject of counseling several times, but he refuses to entertain the idea and flatly states he will not participate. I have thought about going on my own though.

4. I have a great life insurance policy that will cover my student loans with room - even if for some reason, they were not forgiven (they usually are with death; at least federal loans are).

5. I agree that my parents shouldn't have to pay back whatever we helped them pay for the wedding. I agree it is their privilege, not their responsibility, as was elegantly stated by one of you. This is a major point of contention between me and my husband. I say, it is a few thousand dollars, in the long run it won't mean much to us at all, but it makes a huge difference to them. Plus, in the grand scheme of things, I owe my parents WAY more than they owe me - how could I ever repay them back for being good parents? He disagrees with me and so do his parents. This intimidates me a little.

I have only been asking my parents to give a little because my husband has been so adamant about it. If it were up to me, I would not ask them for anything and it kills me that we are. Would it be wrong of me to take a stand and tell my parents not to worry about it, even if my husband doesn't agree? I'm not sure if this is crossing a line in marriage. I am newly wed and negotiating these things is new for me.

He always makes comparisons between his parents (who paid for all his educational and marriage expenses) and mine, which I think is unfair.

6. He is a generally good guy, and we certainly do love each other. When it is good, it's really great. When it is bad though, it is TERRIBLE and I would be lying if I said I didn't think about divorce, even this early into our marriage (just a few months). I feel like there are enough great things and after only a few months...I mean, I should at least give it a better chance. Aren't most first years of marriage kind of rough?
 
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Yes, the first years of marriage are hard, especially the first (I've been married for 10). I think you have to put your foot down hard about expecting your parents to pay you for your wedding. That is insane, selfish, and just... I don't even have words. They are living on social security. Their paying you anything needs to stop yesterday.

Honestly, if you don't draw a line in the sand with your husband, this problem will just continue. Draw up a budget--you'd need to do that with or without the debt and explain that you WILL NOT expect your parents to contribute to your lifestyle. End of story. Will he be mad? Oh yes. But it's better for him to be mad now than for this to fester, and make your parents suffer in the process.

He sounds spoiled and snobbish to me. I realize that's not the whole of his personality, but I really have no sympathy for his position.
 
I have to agree with Farmer Jane about taking care of things now and not letting them fester. You'll just regret it later, especially if it gets worse.

Also, I like FJ's bluntness. Kudos. :thumbup: :laugh:

-X
 
I'd seek counseling for yourself. Most people who flat out refuse counseling, as your husband has, do so because they know deep inside they're in the wrong and don't want to get busted. I don't suppose he'd respond to being able to pick out the counselor he wants and choose a male if that makes him feel better?

I can't believe he told you he wished he'd thought twice about marrying you because of your loans. We all think to ourselves occasionally, "If I knew then what I know now..." but you don't freaking say it to your partner or parents!!

I had a friend once who described her marriage of 13 years as, "I love him, I just don't like him very much." Someone tell me this is not the way all marriages are. Please.
 
Thanks for the additional info. Well, since he knew going into the marriage, and you obviously have a very good plan for repaying it, I don't see why he has such a problem with it. He seems a little immature and spoiled. Is this the case? If there is a subtle way to distance him from his mother, I would recommend it. (Don't be obvious about it, or directly say anything against her, or he'll rush to her defense.) It doesn't sound like those apron strings are cut yet, and he and his mother are using your loans as an excuse. (And don't believe for a second that she's an innocent bystander...)

I agree with Farmer Jane that the wedding "payments" from your parents should stop. That seems like his way of making sure you are also still tied to your parents, so he doesn't have to be a man. As long as you're still supported by them, he can stay his mother's little boy. Also, have you considered (or already done it) setting up separate checking accounts? My husband and I have kept our money separate since we were first married. That prevents a ton of financial arguments since what we do with our money is our own business.

I'm so glad to hear that you're not giving up on the marriage. Some guys just need a strong woman to make them grow up, so you have some work on your hands, but it's not something that can't be worked out if you are both committed to each other. The first year of marriage can be hard, but it does get better. Once he understands that the two of you are The family now, and his mother is just a relative, he'll quit using silly excuses to distance himself from you.

And I'll reply, MaddieMay, not all marriages are unhappy! It is so wonderful to have your best friend by your side and know that nothing short of death can keep him from being there for you when you need him. Some people start out with more to work out than others, but if you think about marriage as a life-long commitment, it's better to learn to love each other and be happy together than to spend the next 60+ years filled with regret. I haven't been married long enough to experience it yet, but most long-term married couples say that you'll go through times when you don't feel like you love your spouse, but if you stick it out, you'll end up loving them more than ever. Hopefully that is the case with your friend.
 
This needs to be nipped in the butt now! If my husband ever talked about my parents that way, there would be hell to pay. I would expect no less of him if I talked about his parents like that.

I honestly wonder why you got married at all, if money has been such an issue between you. But that said, you're married now and you have to work with each other. I've been married nearly a year and a half, and we have had money arguments before, but never to that level. We worked out a plan of attack on our debts and a budget and we've been 10 times happier ever since. Now I'm the one who is facing a potential mountain of debt in comparison to him, and he's behind me 100%. This isn't MY debt, it's OUR debt. There's a big difference when you're working on it together and nobody is holding grudges.

You need to address your money problems together as well as his anger issues with your parents. This will only get worse if you don't. The wedding payments also need to stop. Put your foot down on that one.
 
Save yourself a lot of stress in the long run and get divorced NOW while you still don't have kids. You need a spouse who wasn't fed by his mommy and daddy with a silver spoon his entire life and is more understanding towards your humble upbringing. Your husband and his family probably look down upon your family and that is not something you want in your life. Kick the snobs to the curb.
 
If there is a subtle way to distance him from his mother, I would recommend it.


OP, this is probably the worst advice that you could follow. There is no faster way to make things worse than by trying to drive a wedge between him and his family. No matter how "subtle" you think you are, he'll pick up on it. If he's been taken care of by his parents his whole life, he might have some underlying guilt/emotional problems about not being independent enough. Bottom line, getting between him and his mother - definitely not a good idea.

Maybe you could spend sometime coming up with a 5-year/10-year plan detailing how you're going to manage the debt, invest, and build wealth. Think of it as a personal business plan - and include as little contribution from him as possible. Remind him that you will eventually make bank - serious bank possibly - in the practice of medicine. Showing him some current physician wanted adds and explaining the business of medicine to him might help.

If you do this well, and he's still put off, maybe money isn't really the heart of the issue.
 
Perhaps the distance referred to was physical distance, which might not be a bad idea. We had some friends who moved from Texas to Tampa for the express purpose of getting some distance btw them and her folks. However, both were on board for the move and reason behind it...which probably wouldn't be the case here.
 
I will now speak from the guy's perspective:

I too am absolutely terrified of women with large debt amounts. In fact, any serious debt including educational debt was a complete and utter deal breaker for me unless she was already fast tracked into a super high paying speciality to clear it within 5 years.

The issue from the guy's perspective is if a woman decides to step out of the job market and have children they have to assume payments for that mountain of capitalizing interest. For someone who has been financially solid their whole life, that is a huge blow.

I would, for the sake of the marriage, delay having children until your debt is serviced (or at least whittled to manageable amount).

In conclusion, I completely agree with SO's sense of apprehension about the future.

As for the wedding stuff, which is completely another story. Frankly if your parents threw a reception they couldnt afford, they have ZERO right to ask you and your spouse for $. That is offensive IMO. Your spouse likely had little to no input on the price per guest, the overall arrangements or cost and is being asked to pony up for the bill...after the fact...with gift money? That is a disaster.

Tell your parents to suck it up. Eat less government cheese, cut back on the trips to Country Kitchen Buffet or whatever.

Bailing your parents out this early in the relationship sets an incredibly bad precedent. That more than ever is likely raising red flags for your new spouse.

Basically this is a marriage between people of 2 different classes: one well off, one less so. To me that is a FAR rougher marriage than even multi-racial/ethnic situations and religious differences. So good luck with it, road maybe bumpy.
 
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In fact, any serious debt including educational debt was a complete and utter deal breaker for me unless she was already fast tracked into a super high paying speciality to clear it within 5 years.

That's all fine and well, but the hubby in the OP's situation knew about the debt and still married her. To him I say, "Man up, Nancy, and grow a pair." He knew about the debt going in, so I'd tell him to STFU. Complain, complain, complain... :rolleyes:

Tell your parents to suck it up. Eat less government cheese, cut back on the trips to Country Kitchen Buffet or whatever.
Now be nice...:) That was uncalled for. This is supposed to be a support forum. Her parents ARE retired and in their 70's...

Basically this is a marriage between people of 2 different classes: one well off, one less so. To me that is a FAR rougher marriage than even multi-racial/ethnic situations and religious differences. So good luck with it, road maybe bumpy.
I tend to agree with you on this one. Good luck indeed! :luck:

-X
 
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I will now speak from the guy's perspective:

Thank you for your perspective, and for everyone who has given theirs.

I too am absolutely terrified of women with large debt amounts. In fact, any serious debt including educational debt was a complete and utter deal breaker for me unless she was already fast tracked into a super high paying speciality to clear it within 5 years.

The issue from the guy's perspective is if a woman decides to step out of the job market and have children they have to assume payments for that mountain of capitalizing interest. For someone who has been financially solid their whole life, that is a huge blow.

Like you, I think my husband is also terrified of women with debt but somehow married me anyway. I am grateful and happy that he did, though it concerns me when he says things like, "I should have thought twice before marrying someone in so much debt." Makes me wonder...what does he care about more, the money, or me? I understand in fear and frustration people can say hurtful things, and maybe he doesn't mean it, but regardless this is going to play over and over again in my head for a long time...

I can appreciate that having never been in debt, suddenly being in a lot can be terrifying. I DO appreciate that aspect of my husband's response to my/our debt. Together we have laid out a plan to take care of it. I'm going into a ROAD specialty; he has plans to become an academic physician. Our combined salary will be not at all be an issue.

BTW - it may not make financial sense to pay off educational loans within five years. With the exception of some private loans that I have already started paying, my federal loans are at low interest rates (some at less than 3 percent). Why pay that off quickly? I'll make more money in the long run by investing at a higher rate of return than spending what I have on low-interst loans now. I'd rather pay those loans off as slowly as possible...

As for the wedding stuff, which is completely another story.

I think this is the source of most of our problems.

Frankly if your parents threw a reception they couldnt afford, they have ZERO right to ask you and your spouse for $. That is offensive IMO. Your spouse likely had little to no input on the price per guest, the overall arrangements or cost and is being asked to pony up for the bill...after the fact...with gift money? That is a disaster.

My husband and I had a lot of control over how the arrangements. My parents decided very little, mainly our selection for the priest and some of the religious aspects of the ceremony. Wherever possible we tried to trim costs. My inlaws and brother helped to defray costs significantly. I am very grateful to them and plan on repaying the favor in the future, somehow. But like many weddings, it is not easy to stick to the original budget. Relative to the amount my family DID pay for, what I contributed out of the wedding gifts are a small amount. But, it was a lot of the wedding gifts - about 25%, which I think is the statistic that my husband fixates on.

My parents didn't ask me to pony up for the bill. I told them we would pay for it now since it was all on a credit card and I didn't want it to accumulate interest and become a bigger deal. My father initially said he could pay maybe a few hundred a month until it is paid off - which will take a long time. I think their few hundred a month is no big deal, and they could put that money to better use. I think whatever benefit we might earn from saving those few hundred a month will be negligible compared to the amount I will earn and invest over the course of my lifetime - as I have my entire working life ahead of me. I think they have contributed enough to the wedding that my husband and I largely planned. My husband thinks otherwise.

Tell your parents to suck it up. Eat less government cheese, cut back on the trips to Country Kitchen Buffet or whatever.

My mother is an excellent cook; given that, my parents rarely eat government cheese or go out to eat.

Bailing your parents out this early in the relationship sets an incredibly bad precedent. That more than ever is likely raising red flags for your new spouse.

This I understand, but so far have been unable to reassure my spouse that I am not going to spend our entire fortune on my parents; however, I am also not going to deny them help if they need it, the request is reasonable, and we can comfortably afford it. They are my parents, and in less than a decade, I will be by most measures much, much wealthier than the average American. I have told him that I would do the exact same thing for his parents as well, if they need to live with us in the future - I will take care of them; if they ever need $, we will do what we can.

I think the issue is, that my husband hates my parents and will never be capable of seeing things from their point of view. My parents were not initially accepting of our engagement because of some archaic cultural views (and I gave them hell for it) but they have changed the way they think about these things - I think my marriage has challenged them in a good way - and have tried hard to be accepting, nice, etc towards my husband. I knew it would take time and eventually saw progress on their end. I think he will simply never want to understand them, never want to forgive them, and making them pay back this amount every month is his way of exacting revenge.

I feel for what he went through during our engagement because he didn't deserve any of my parents doubt. I don't know how to help him acknowledge his anger and deal with it in productive ways, not to make an old couple pay money that they barely have.

Anyway, I guess this is just my theory.

Basically this is a marriage between people of 2 different classes: one well off, one less so. To me that is a FAR rougher marriage than even multi-racial/ethnic situations and religious differences. So good luck with it, road maybe bumpy.

I agree. I don't think my husband has any idea what it is like for a family to live on less than six figures or to be on financial aid for your education. I get that, but what scares me is that he doesn't seem to even WANT to understand.

Thank you for your good luck wish.
 
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hmmm...you posted an incredibly polite response given my nasty jabs about your parents eating government cheese and all..

Im impressed. The Force is strong in you.

I doubly wish you good luck on your marriage now.

Your new husband will come around if you are only 1/2 as persuasive in real life as your response there.
 
The first year of marriage sucks. Two quick things: 1) What is yours is yours, and what is his is yours. 2) The way you feel about MIL(mother-in-law) and FIL(father-in-law) are actually very important to emotional connectivity.

Tell him to man up and open his eyes. No one is perfect and at least you both agree on one thing. They(your parents) both did something right to make you so he would be able to marry you. I know it is sappy, but it is a start. Let him have some say in what the bathroom looks like and suggest watching football together for a game or two and it will be fine. You both combine your incomes and make a budget. Whatever happened to the men of yester year?
 
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