Where be the gurus?

[ygdrasil]

This question was sparked by yaah's recent mention that he "may be in the best program in the country for learning GI path." As someone who's just started his ERAS, I suddenly felt an urgent need to know: Where be the gurus? Perhaps even more importantly, WHO be the gurus?
I know Jonathan Epstein is the prostate guru at Hopkins.
I know Bernard Ackerman is the much loved dermatopath guru and is the emeritus director at his eponymous Academy of Dermatopathology in NY.
But I don't really know any others. Perhaps more importantly, I don't know which programs have a great reputation for this or that.

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[mlw03]

just realize that guru does not equal great teacher. i don't know the people you mentioned, but in every field of academia there are experts, and some of them teach well and others don't. i'd rather have a solid surg path attending who's a great teacher than an expert who's a poor teacher. perhaps a more important question to get answered as we start applying is: which programs do people think have especially good or especially bad teachers?

 

[yaah]

Ackerman is not much loved. He is much polarizing. He has his admirers but he also has his major detractors. And I don't think he is involved much in teaching anymore. Definitely agree with the above though, there are some well known people who are not great teachers, and some less well known people who are superior teachers. I have met many "gurus" but haven't really seem them teaching or at signout, and I hear rumors from people who work with them or used to work with them.

Most of the time, you can easily identify the experts in the field by who writes the chapters, participates in WHO books, lectures at big conferences, etc. If names come up a lot, it's a good bet they are good teachers or writers or researchers.

And as said, there is never "one" expert for any field. There are many different styles and areas of expertise. Epstein may be regarded as the foremost prostate pathologist in the world, but that doesn't mean there aren't lots of others, many of whom may or may not be better teachers in an individual or fellowship setting. Part of what makes a good fellowship though is material, and you know that if you train with an expert who is well regarded you are going to see lots of material (a lot of it in consult).

 

[ygdrasil]

Point well taken, mlw03, I'd much rather be taught by a truly inspired teacher than an expert who can't stand teaching. But it's also useful to know who the experts are. As yaah mentioned, when you're on the same service with one, you may not spend a lot of time discussing every epidemiologic and morphologic detail, but you will get to see a lot of tough/interesting cases. And so when fellowship directors/potential employers say, "Ah, you went to training program X and worked with Dr. X [not to be confused with Professor X, whom I do not think participates in the NRMP.], you must be really tuned up on oligodendrogliomas," you can say, "Yep!" even if you and Dr. X barely spoke.

Another useful thing about knowing a program's reputation (slightly different than knowing where the gurus be at, I realize) is for during the interview process. When that program inevitably asks, "So, why is it that you'd be willing to stick your mother in a sack and give her to the comfort wagons of the Golden Horde to attend our program?" you can reply, "Well, I've heard great things about your program. For instance, an acquaintance of mine attended it, and he assured me that it was one of the best in the country for GI path. I love the idea of being at a center that other centers turn to with their difficult cases." As opposed to my current answer, "I really want to become a pathologist, and I understand that if I go to a program, I'll get to be one."

So, anyone else? Gurus? Great things your program is great at?

 

[djmd]

Well Murry- (love that show)

I think as Yaah suggested, there are different types of Gurus.
The renown guru, who by you being near people say ah, you must know a lot about...

and then the teaching guru, who actually teaches you a lot about...
Rarely those two are the same guy, sadly it is not always or even often the case...

 

[Gene_]

My program is great at dermpath. We don't have any "gurus", but we see it almost every day on surg path rotations and have two conferences per week. By the end of the year, our first years will know more dermpath than our fellows (not dermpath) who trained at other institutions typically do. While interviewing you should ask how much dermpath you'll see.

 

[anencephalic]

Gurus in Genitourinary pathology (Eble, Ulbright, Chang) abound at IU.

 

[jayman]

A few here at U Pitt that I've met:

Leon Barnes - Head and Neck
Sam Yousem - Thoracic/Lung
Clayton Wiley - Neuro
A. Jake Demetris/Parmjeet Randhawa - Transplant/Liver
David Dabbs - GYN/Breast
Steven Swerdlow - Hemepath

Mind you, I don't know much about the clinical path angle, yet. The overall consensus by the residents here is that these guys are good teachers, too.

 

[Brian Pavlovitz]

SUNY Syracuse:

Katzenstein--Lung
Hutchison--Hemepath

 

[SLUsagar]

Stanford:
Richard Kempson - GYN, breast, soft tissue, bone...is there something this guy doesn't do?
Michael Hendrickson - GYN, soft tissue, bone
Richard Sibley - liver, kidney, soft tissue
Teri Longacre - GYN, GI
Gerald Berry - lung, ENT/H&N
Roger Warnke - heme (LN)
Dan Arber - heme
Hannel Vogel - neuro, muscle/nerve

there's another other key cyto, heme, liver/kidney persons, but I included the big boys/girls.

 

[pathgrrl]

I agree that you should check out who is writing/editing the books, and check out chapter authors for up and coming "gurus". Sometimes you can get a lot of info from lists of invited speakers, such as this one from the CA tumor registry:
http://www.cttr.org/pastsem.shtml
Two names that stand out for me here, since I have an interest in breast pathology, David Page now at Vanderbilt and Fatennah Tavasolli now at Yale. That leads me to conclude that Noel Weidner, William Hartmann, and Lauren Ackerman must also be gurus of the breast. Noeal Weidner is at UCSD, Lauren Ackerman recently passed away, and William Hartmann is on the American Board of Pathology.

 

[SLUsagar]

I agree that you should check out who is writing/editing the books, and check out chapter authors for up and coming "gurus". Sometimes you can get a lot of info from lists of invited speakers, such as this one from the CA tumor registry:
http://www.cttr.org/pastsem.shtml
Two names that stand out for me here, since I have an interest in breast pathology, David Page now at Vanderbilt and Fatennah Tavasolli now at Yale. That leads me to conclude that Noel Weidner, William Hartmann, and Lauren Ackerman must also be gurus of the breast. Noeal Weidner is at UCSD, Lauren Ackerman recently passed away, and William Hartmann is on the American Board of Pathology.

"david page now at Vandy..." NOW? he's been there for a while.

 

[1Path]

Dr.Page is amazing and yeah he's been at Vandy for while but I also heard that he was considering retiring soon.

Man this list is heavy with ol white dudes, so I'm gonna mix things up a bit and add Dr.Maria Merino of the NIH to this list! SHE is tight!

 

[Sean2tall]

From what I understand Dr. Jan Silverman is fairly big in cyto @ Allegheny General in Pittsburgh.

 

[LADoc00]

Stanford:
Richard Kempson - GYN, breast, soft tissue, bone...is there something this guy doesn't do?
Michael Hendrickson - GYN, soft tissue, bone
Richard Sibley - liver, kidney, soft tissue
Teri Longacre - GYN, GI
Gerald Berry - lung, ENT/H&N
Roger Warnke - heme (LN)
Dan Arber - heme
Hannel Vogel - neuro, muscle/nerve

there's another other key cyto, heme, liver/kidney persons, but I included the big boys/girls.

Arber is perhaps the most underrated academic in pathology. Falls into the same basket as people like Appleman, Humphrey and Ulbright. A small group of people so elite it is almost worth going to train at places just to work with them.

 

[LADoc00]

Gurus in Genitourinary pathology (Eble, Ulbright, Chang) abound at IU.

Indiana is very much a sleeper program. All the names you mention are elites.

 

[SLUsagar]

Indiana is very much a sleeper program. All the names you mention are elites.

although L. Chang has been seen on the interview trail lately...

 

[LADoc00]

although L. Chang has been seen on the interview trail lately...

Interesting you should say that, he has been for quite awhile. I had lunch with him when he was interviewing at unnamed program sometime ago, maybe 2+years. I would predict it may have to do with getting more $ out of IU than actually leaving. Common academic ploy really.

 

[CameronFrye]

Interesting you should say that, he has been for quite awhile. I had lunch with him when he was interviewing at unnamed program sometime ago, maybe 2+years. I would predict it may have to do with getting more $ out of IU than actually leaving. Common academic ploy really.

Yep, I've definitely seen this practice. It's one of the few ways to actually spur an academic dept into actually giving you a raise. Otherwise, your request for a raise is continuously "under review".

 

[Thaitanium]

Boris Bastian - melanoma basic science research Guru
LeBoit/Barnhill - melanoma Gurus
LADoc - Business and Economics of Pathology Mogul

 

[SLUsagar]

Interesting you should say that, he has been for quite awhile. I had lunch with him when he was interviewing at unnamed program sometime ago, maybe 2+years. I would predict it may have to do with getting more $ out of IU than actually leaving. Common academic ploy really.

Seems odd though as IU path, so i've been told, pays quite handsomely.... far and above most academic places... He must be leaving for a bigger name/status +/- location, not nec. the $

 

[anencephalic]

Indiana is very much a sleeper program. All the names you mention are elites.

I forgot to add Grignon to that list.

 

[cluecells]

I agree that you should check out who is writing/editing the books, and check out chapter authors for up and coming "gurus". Sometimes you can get a lot of info from lists of invited speakers, such as this one from the CA tumor registry:
http://www.cttr.org/pastsem.shtml
Two names that stand out for me here, since I have an interest in breast pathology, David Page now at Vanderbilt and Fatennah Tavasolli now at Yale. That leads me to conclude that Noel Weidner, William Hartmann, and Lauren Ackerman must also be gurus of the breast. Noeal Weidner is at UCSD, Lauren Ackerman recently passed away, and William Hartmann is on the American Board of Pathology.

Fattaneh Tavassoli is not just an outstanding breast and gyn pathologist; she is also an excellent and very dedicated teacher.

 

[miko2005]

Dr.Page is amazing and yeah he's been at Vandy for while but I also heard that he was considering retiring soon.

Is that really true? I honestly don't know either way... but I would like to know if that's based on real information.

 

[1Path]

Is that really true? I honestly don't know either way... but I would like to know if that's based on real information.

I guess it depends on what you consider "real information". I heard that from 2 other renown (and 1 now retired) breast pathologists.

 

[LADoc00]

there is guru in my office right now...Im staring back at his reflection in my computer screen.

this thread is quite silly TBH.

 

[yaah]

this thread is quite silly TBH.

Yeah, every program and hospital is going to have people who are experts, it's kind of silly to start listing them all because you'll quickly get hundreds of such experts. And then people will argue about whether their experts are better than other experts, and list reasons. It's kind of like a premed thread.

 

[Neddy]

Fattaneh Tavassoli is not just an outstanding breast and gyn pathologist; she is also an excellent and very dedicated teacher.

Yeah, she's fantastic. And today, I just saw one of my program's WHO-book-author "gurus" sitting at a scope with a med student, giving a one-one-one basic histology lesson. The "gurus" who actually love to teach may be the minority, but in the end, they're the only ones that really do you much good as a trainee.

 

[Trenchcoat]

Fletcher at BWH - Soft Tissue

 

[Adrian Cocot]

John K. Chan - Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Hong Kong.

He eats Rosai and craps out Fletcher.

 

[superkeith]

A few here at U Pitt that I've met:

Leon Barnes - Head and Neck
Sam Yousem - Thoracic/Lung
Clayton Wiley - Neuro
A. Jake Demetris/Parmjeet Randhawa - Transplant/Liver
David Dabbs - GYN/Breast
Steven Swerdlow - Hemepath

Mind you, I don't know much about the clinical path angle, yet. The overall consensus by the residents here is that these guys are good teachers, too.

a few things:

1. barnes, demetris and swerdlow are the real deal. pitt truly has a cadre of amazing people.

2. john wc chan at nebraska is the other elite hematopathologist named john chan.

3. if we're talking about gi path training in particular, then CCF has goldblum and bronner. They are both great diagnosticians with a palpable passion for teaching and the overall resident educational experience. CCF also has 2 GI/liver fellowship spots if that is something you are considering.

4. i echo the sentiment that being a guru doesnt guarentee that you are a great teacher. and as we've already seen, there is great debate as to whom may even be considered to be a guru. i highly recommend interviewing at as many institutions as you can that have a relatively strong reputation in your given area of interest and judge for yourself. find out what the residents/fellows perspective is on their training in that particular subspecialty. short of interviewing, try emailing residents, fellows, or staff themselves. people, in general, are going to be honest about their experiences.