Where did you have a *great* student EM rotation?

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I agree about too few being problematic, I just think there has to be a happy medium. I personally think 23/4wks is way too much, but I also think 16 8’s a month is way too low. Years ago when I first got to my current job the residents worked all 16 9s regardless of class per month. I thought the shift counts were way too low and lobbied to increase them because I thought being too low was a detriment to their education. So I definitely think there is a reasonable amount of work as a resident to where you have enough time off to both recover and do your non-clinical duties outside of work.

When I was in training my residency worked 20-19-18, all 10s, per month and I thought that was reasonable. My residents in my program now work 20-19-18, all 9s, per month and I think thats reasonable. Maybe my opinion is colored by where I trained as what I think is normal or appropriate, perhaps, but I think it strikes a happy medium between being too many and too little.

I had an away where we worked 14 shifts/month and it honestly frustrated me - it meant we never got any substantial face time with the same attendings or residents for more than 1-2 shifts.

As a student in a strange place it takes 3 shifts just to figure Out where the bathrooms are, and 5 to successfully call a half decent consult to the right service. I would’ve rather worked 18-20 and get a real feel for the program.

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Is this a CMG shop? It sure sounds like one
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: NJ- Rowan SOM/Jefferson Health/Our Lady of Lourdes
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: no answer provided to this question
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam: None
Interview Offered During Rotation: No, and interview is not guaranteed to rotators
Would you recommend to others: No

Review:
Very much a sink or swim type of experience. Got yelled at by an attending during the first day because I wasn't checking on patients who weren't mine. GME coordinator is unbelievably disorganized; turned in my access information 6 weeks prior to the start of the rotation, followed up with IT when I got there, and I NEVER received computer access...which I got yelled at for by above attending. Program director had me going around getting him things like tissues, cups, etc during the one shift I worked with him. Attendings will go ahead and just see the patient and do everything without giving residents the opportunity to facilitate management of the ER. The residents were really cool and offered great feedback. They would be the only reason why I consider this program; I feel as though my student experience was extremely crappy, but I do not think the residency experience is the same. Residents seem pretty competent. The one thing I didn't like is the residents all seemed like they had cordial colleague relationships with each other but were not legit friends like you see with other programs. Program rotates through 3 different hospitals with varying levels of volume and patient types. I felt like all that matters to that hospital system is meeting benchmarks and getting good patient approvals. Didactics are pretty unremarkable. For a 20 year old program, I simply expected more. I didn't feel welcomed like I did with every other place I rotated at. The SLOE process is abysmal. You're expected to just find an attending willing to write you a SLOE; the attending I wanted to ask was already bombarded with 20 other SLOEs to write so I didn't even bother asking him. And not all attendings will write SLOEs. Since it's Rowan's GME coordinator who makes your schedule, you're not even guaranteed to be scheduled with someone who will write you one.

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I agree about too few being problematic, I just think there has to be a happy medium. I personally think 23/4wks is way too much, but I also think 16 8’s a month is way too low. Years ago when I first got to my current job the residents worked all 16 9s regardless of class per month. I thought the shift counts were way too low and lobbied to increase them because I thought being too low was a detriment to their education. So I definitely think there is a reasonable amount of work as a resident to where you have enough time off to both recover and do your non-clinical duties outside of work.

When I was in training my residency worked 20-19-18, all 10s, per month and I thought that was reasonable. My residents in my program now work 20-19-18, all 9s, per month and I think thats reasonable. Maybe my opinion is colored by where I trained as what I think is normal or appropriate, perhaps, but I think it strikes a happy medium between being too many and too little.
I agree that sounds more reasonable.
We work 20, 19,18, 17 mostly 8s. I'm pretty happy with that schedule. As a 4th year now working 17 shifts a month IMO still keeps me involved/active but I have time for other stuff that I'm interested in. I do have friends at 3 year programs that are pushing 21-22 shifts per month (mostly combination of 8s/9s).

Residency is all about seeing as many patients as possible however not overstepping to the point that you can't acquire any meaningful learning because you are too exhausted.

I do think that overall the majority of med students and residents are looking for that 16 shifts/month number (smh weak millennials), which IMO, doesn't cut it for training. It's a problem if the faculty are working as many shifts/month as the residents are.

There are though absolute sweat shop programs out there (some of which are part of the SDN circle jerk) that I think have detrimental effects on resident education.
 
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I had an away where we worked 14 shifts/month and it honestly frustrated me - it meant we never got any substantial face time with the same attendings or residents for more than 1-2 shifts.

As a student in a strange place it takes 3 shifts just to figure Out where the bathrooms are, and 5 to successfully call a half decent consult to the right service. I would’ve rather worked 18-20 and get a real feel for the program.

I actually didn't mind working less than the residents bc I wasn't a resident getting paid haha. Plus the extra time was used to explore the city as a potential suitor and just relax as a 4th yr lol
 
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Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: NY- SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE considerably late
Housing provided: No
Comments: None
Required Exam: None
Interview Offered During Rotation: No, and interview is not guaranteed to rotators
Would you recommend to others: NO

Review:
I did not like this rotation for a few reasons. #1 they surprise drug tested us day 1. Yup, no warning or anything. #2 They say if you are late to anything you can't honors. #3 Rotators do not get EMR access #4 They don't value their sub-is at all and really felt most residents were too busy to teach. #5 They don't let you switch shifts and the rotation just feels like you are overworked with 15 shifts and 4 lecture days and days off after a night shift etc. On a positive note, amazing clinical experience. That place is wild.
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: OK- Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences (Norman) Program
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE considerably late
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam:
Interview Offered During Rotation: No, but interview is guaranteed to rotators
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: NJ- Inspira Health Network (Vineland)
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam:
Interview Offered During Rotation: Not sure
Would you recommend to others: NO

Review:
some residents were into having you there and some were not. It really depended on whether you would have a good day if a resident you were with would let you see people. There was multiple days where I would be shadowing a resident since we would go see people together. Did not really get to interact with attendings. Overall, attendings were not very interested in us. You also do shifts in Elmer, which is not the most interesting. Didactics were okay, Sim Cases were interesting and not graded. Feedback I received did not match final grades
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: TX- Christus Health/Texas A&M College of Medicine/Spohn Hospital Program
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: Yes
Comments: shared apartment, may have to share a room or stay in living room
Required Exam: In-House
Interview Offered During Rotation: No, but interview is guaranteed to rotators
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
Pros: sick patients, lots of procedures, nice schedule (11 shifts!), free food Cons: only 11 shifts (so less room for error), not much teaching on shift
 
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Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: UNLV
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam: SAEM
Interview Offered During Rotation: Yes
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
University of Las Vegas Nevada (UNLV) - Work with you from the get go to schedule the rotation to fit your schedule. 12 12 hour shifts, a couple are 8 hours if you work after conference or before lecture. ~10 main ED shifts, 1 peds ED, 1 trauma shift. Busy ED, plenty of opportunities to see patients (sometimes sick ones) and do basic procedures. If not for new interns, probably would have been able to do more procedures. They have Epic but students don't write notes in it, instead do 1 or 2 written notes per shift that you turn in for a resident to look over and give you feedback on. Residents are great and make sure you get involved and often teach a good amount despite being super busy. Mostly presented to residents but attendings were all nice and did some occasional teaching but they were more focused on the new interns and residents and that was fine. Lecture and conference weren't bad. One SIM session that was pretty good and very low stress. Was able to explore a good amount and not all that far from Zion. I interviewed during the rotation but I don't think interviews are always guaranteed. Took quite awhile for them to send in my grade to my home institution.
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: GA- Wellstar Kennestone Regional (Marietta)
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: No
Comments: Easy enough to find in the area
Required Exam: In house and mock oral boards cases x2
Interview Offered During Rotation: Yes
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
Overall it was a really good month. The interns and residents are extremely interested in selling the program to you and making sure you get good exposure and good time in front of attendings. You'll split time depending on how busy it is between seeing your own patients and seeing them with an attending. Didactics weekly are interesting and with the residents so no double dipping necessary. Residents usually buy your food as well which is nice. Hospital is big, and VERY busy. I will say though that the feedback has been brutal and borderline overly harsh. They held zero punches, but to be fair me and my cohort felt as though the feedback although helpful was a tad extreme. Unless you're an attending already don't expect them to pull any blows.
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: CA- USC LAC+USC (Los Angeles)
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam: In house
Interview Offered During Rotation: Yes
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
Great experience, paired with 1 resident for 2 weeks, then another for 2 weeks, so by the end you are really working as an extension of that resident, lots of on-shift learning, high acuity/busy dept, med student didactics could use some revamping
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: FL-Kendall Regional (Miami) (HCA)
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam: SAEM
Interview Offered During Rotation: No, but interview is guaranteed to rotators
Would you recommend to others: yes, if youre able to be super self sufficient

Review:
Cons- didactics are kind of weak, residents don't really make an effort to get to know med students that well. Its sometimes tough to take ownership of patients because of difficult access to emr and emr is hard to figure out. Pros - Tons of procedures, lots of sick patients, saw some really cool path.

Username: hwknsbrw
 
Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: NY- NYU School of Medicine
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE considerably late
Housing provided: No
Comments:
Required Exam: None, but you do a CORE EM post and presentation at the end
Interview Offered During Rotation: No, but interview is guaranteed to rotators
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
time split between tisch and bellevue and brooklyn, three v different hospitals so there was a lot of variety, but you never felt acclimated to one place. Working mainly with the attending, never really get to know the residents. Rotated in july so hard to comment on the residents, there wasn't much effort made. Plenty of opportunity to get involved in traumas, do procedures etc.

Username: hwknsbrw
 
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Posted anonymously via Google Form

Program: AZ- Maricopa
Type: EM Clerkship/Sub-Internship
SLOE Experience: Sent SLOE in a timely manner
Housing provided: No
Comments: Need a car!
Required Exam: SAEM
Interview Offered During Rotation: Yes
Would you recommend to others: Yes

Review:
My fave rotation by far. Residents are awesome, you staff with both the residents and the attendings. Very good with feedback, patient population is insane, very sick, lots of good trauma. Residents seem very competent. Schedule is very flexible, easy to switch if you need. 14 8s total. The didactics were also good, lots of sim experience. Residents make a huge effort to involve med students so I felt like I really got to know this program the best. Highly recommend this rotation overall.

Username: hwknsbrw
 
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Bump!
Rising MS4 here. I was wondering if anyone has any input about SLOE at UT San Antonio? I've heard great things about this program on SDN and in this thread but wanted to know if they give reasonable SLOEs. Thank you!
 
Bump!
Rising MS4 here. I was wondering if anyone has any input about SLOE at UT San Antonio? I've heard great things about this program on SDN and in this thread but wanted to know if they give reasonable SLOEs. Thank you!

I never understood questions like this tbh. Bc people that get good sloes will say yes and people that get bad sloes will say no. Everyone just assumes they are “top 1/3 or higher”. But, thats not how a bell curve works.
 
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I never understood questions like this tbh. Bc people that get good sloes will say yes and people that get bad sloes will say no. Everyone just assumes they are “top 1/3 or higher”. But, thats not how a bell curve works.
Back when I was a med student there was some variability in how programs wrote their SLORs. At two of the programs where I rotated, attendings sent feedback, which was compiled into a letter. At one program, however, the SLOR was primarily written by the clerkship director based on his shift with you and a one-on-one interview that he did at the end of the rotation. I'd say that was a program that was unreasonable.
 
Back when I was a med student there was some variability in how programs wrote their SLORs. At two of the programs where I rotated, attendings sent feedback, which was compiled into a letter. At one program, however, the SLOR was primarily written by the clerkship director based on his shift with you and a one-on-one interview that he did at the end of the rotation. I'd say that was a program that was unreasonable.

I think the vast majority now are group SLOEs that I see. Not all, but most. And the ones that aren’t its usually the PD or CD who writes them, and I’d imagine they are still based on composite evaluations from multiple evaluators.
 
Bump!
Rising MS4 here. I was wondering if anyone has any input about SLOE at UT San Antonio? I've heard great things about this program on SDN and in this thread but wanted to know if they give reasonable SLOEs. Thank you!

Theyre fine. Stay away from Austin and JPS.
 
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Shout out to Texas Tech El Paso while people are talking Texas. I did my away there last year and it was amazing. Great acuity, well put together, and good educators. I saw some bonkers stuff. They let us practice Cric’s on pig tracheas, got us hands on with all sorts of procedures, and relied on the students for eval and management on simple cases. It’s a great subI.

My home, Miami, is awesome too, but Texas tech is a whole different kind of “end of the world” weird.
 
Shout out to Texas Tech El Paso while people are talking Texas. I did my away there last year and it was amazing. Great acuity, well put together, and good educators. I saw some bonkers stuff. They let us practice Cric’s on pig tracheas, got us hands on with all sorts of procedures, and relied on the students for eval and management on simple cases. It’s a great subI.

My home, Miami, is awesome too, but Texas tech is a whole different kind of “end of the world” weird.

One of my favorite interviews last cycle without question. It was evident they were an amazing program with great down to earth people. I left the interview day feeling like I would be really happy there and was considering placing them top 3 on my rank list. I ended up not doing that because I think my wife would have killed me if I told her we're moving to El Paso TX lol
 
One of my favorite interviews last cycle without question. It was evident they were an amazing program with great down to earth people. I left the interview day feeling like I would be really happy there and was considering placing them top 3 on my rank list. I ended up not doing that because I think my wife would have killed me if I told her we're moving to El Paso TX lol
Yup, my fiancé was 0% down to move to El Paso. We couples matched and she refused to even interview there.
 
Well, first of all Vandy is only going to take a certain amount of people rotating with them from July to October. Maybe what, 5 or 10 a month. So you can't all go there anyway.

Second, I have no problem with you learning a lot on an EM rotation. My suggestion is you take the mindset that you're going there to show what you already know, not to learn. Of course you're going to learn something too, but it's an audition. Everyone you interact with is looking at you and saying to themselves "Do I really want to work with this chump for the next 3 years?" Show up early, stay late, be social, be a strong student (what's that House of God rule?) etc. More than anything else, you need an honors out of that rotation. Because even if you don't go to Vandy, everyone else gets to see what Vandy thought about you....it's in the grade.

I'll tell you what I did. I did 3 EM rotations, one in the Spring of my third year at a community hospital/trauma center in the same town as my medical school. I learned a ton and cemented my desire to do EM. By April of 3rd year I knew what I wanted to do, which helps a lot compared to not knowing in September. I worked hard and must have impressed someone because I got an honors. The competition for honors, however, was lower than anywhere else because they just don't get that many students interested in EM. My second rotation, August of my fourth year was my home institution which at the time didn't have an EM program. This was primarily to get an honors and SLORs. My last rotation in September was at an away program. It was purely an audition rotation. It was a bit weird because it was a program I didn't want to go to, but because I had to go through the military match, I had to convince some military folks that I would be a great person to match into EM, even if I wanted to do a civilian program. The competition among students at this rotation was far higher than anywhere else. We knew we were going head to head and we hadn't known each other for 3 years already. In the end, I got honors in all 3 rotations and when combined with what must have been okay letters and stellar board scores, I could pretty much write my own ticket for interviews (I was invited to interview at 28/30 places I applied- screw you UNC and Madigan!) I had a friend, same school, similar background, similar board scores who got a "high pass" out of his rotation at the home institution. He was turned down for an interview by many places I got an interview at (basically every 3 year program out West) and ended up matching at a solid, but not particularly competitive, program in the Midwest. I think I ranked the program he went to 12th or something.

If I were a more typical med student, I'd do the same order, but replace that last rotation with someplace I really wanted to go, but thought I might not get an interview at. Then I'd bust my tail all month. A "high pass" isn't a death sentence, but don't pretend it doesn't matter.
You also had stellar board scores though. Something to also consider.
 
Yeah that's complete BS.

If you won't rank a DO or non 240+ med student you should either explicitly state this (in bold letters) in your away rotation application or just not let those students rotate.

To be fair, a large percentage of their current residents are not from top 20 med schools (South Carolina, SLU, Wake Forest, South Alabama, Kentucky, etc..) and I highly doubt they only rank 240+ applicants since most people have no burning desire to live in Nashville.
People from the South really like Nashville? Maybe you’re from the North?
 
Per my PD, some programs are well known for protecting their own students with stellar SLOEs and then writing mediocre SLOEs for even great visiting students.

I'm just looking to avoid stepping on any SLOE grenades by accidentally rotating at these places.
Like where???
 
Guys and gals,

I'm don't know if this has been addressed earlier in the thread, but the whole premise of this thread is horribly flawed. Your goal on an away rotation is not to have a good time or even to learn. A *great* rotation means nothing and aiming for a great away is possibly counterproductive.

Only three things matter on away rotations. In order, 1) get a stellar sloe 2) get a shot at matching at that program 3) get a feel for that program. Nothing else matters.

Go to a program where you work 24 12a, hate the residents, don't get to do any procedures, never see an attending, get treated badly and don't learn anything? If it gets you a top 10% letter, it's the perfect rotation. Period.
Were you on bath salts when you wrote this?
 
You also had stellar board scores though. Something to also consider.
Dude you are replying to an 8 year old post from a guy who has since matched, finished residency, had a successful attending career, wrote a book, and now has a (great) podcast.

I don’t think WCI even posts on here any more. He achieved FI-nirvana and is too cool for us now.
 
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Were you on bath salts when you wrote this?

The post that you quoted has FAR more wisdom in it than you will ever know. It's 100% true. Your goal as a SubI is to get a GREAT SLOE, and nothing else matters. You'll learn more in 1 month as an EM PGY1 than your entire first half of MS4, and thus focusing on rotating at a place where you will "learn the most" is a pitfall.

Granted, EM is dead/dying, and we should all start telling medical students what the surgeons tell their rotators: "If you can see yourself doing anything besides surgery, do that instead." The same goes for EM these days and for the foreseeable future. So rotate where you want. Ultimately, the biggest mistake is choosing EM as your future specialty.
 
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