Where did you Match ???

[Taliesinrk]

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Also, I matched at Toledo!! Couldn't be happier.

There's practically no info on the program here (perhaps because it's so small), but I would highly encourage anyone (even though it's in Toledo, OH) to consider it, as I thought it was as good or better than several programs people on here that people rave about.

 

[Tromner]

There's big demand for PM&R rotations in July and August, but you could probably squeeze in an away rotation in Sept, Oct, Nov. I doubt they would discriminate against DO's, given how chock full of DO's the field is and with DO's in prominent positions even at "top" programs. FMG's and IMG's, maybe.

I wouldn't call it discrimination necessarily, but I was turned away from Tufts (they said "we don't take osteo's" for rotations but I was welcome to go to their Maine or Springfield satellite hospitals) and have heard stories about Stanford from another student.

I don't think it is the PM&R department as much as the central rotation scheduling office at the hospital trying to address high demand for rotations.

 

[Paddington]

You guys are focusing too much on the few places that don't want you.

Of course you can't realistically expect that all doors will be open to you. Are DO doors open to the desperate American MD's that went unmatched this year, now $200K+ in debt? MD programs are there to train MD's. Consider yourself lucky that at many places you get an equal or almost equal consideration to MD's.

There's a breadth of opportunity for DO's at MD PM&R institutions and definitely moreso than in any other field.

I can tell you that if you have your heart set on one program, or perhaps even one city, or later on doing just one kind of thing that you really like, you'll fail in medicine regardless. You have to be flexible and ready to go where the opportunity is.

 

[Tromner]

Of course you can't realistically expect that all doors will be open to you. Are DO doors open to the desperate American MD's that went unmatched this year, now $200K+ in debt? MD programs are there to train MD's. Consider yourself lucky that at many places you get an equal or almost equal consideration to MD's.

From your first post I thought you implied that there wasn't any difference applying for MD rotations as a DO, so I just wanted to voice my personal experience having been turned away from a hospital with many DOs in the residency. From your second post I am hearing that it's not realistic to expect equal treatment and we should be grateful for the rights we have? I think residencies are there to train physicians.

I don't have a good answer for why DO's can go to MD residencies but MD's can't go to DO programs. Hopefully in 2015 with the proposed joint accreditation and match that won't be a problem. However, for all the times I've heard that questions, it has never been in the context of an MD genuinely wanting to go to a DO program. It's always just an excuse to block a DO from attending an MD program.

Just my 2 cents but after that last 100+ post thread I don't want to get into a DO/MD fight here to.

 

[Eilat87]

I think throughout history.. most programs outside of PM&R don't give DOs a fair shake..

It is in the interest of the AOA to then reserve spots for their own, give them somewhere to go.

Hopefully the resolution of 2015 will fix both problems.

 

[NeuroAP86]

I completely understand where you are coming from but I am just saying my experience in particular with having to deal with VSAS service to apply for electives. I already have 2 out of 4 months set up (Marionjoy and Schwab) and 1 that is pending approval (Loyola) so I can't complain.

 

[NeuroAP86]

To those of you that matched, is there ideal number of rotations one should do during 4th year in PM&R? Dates of some of these rotations are making it difficult to fit rotations at top places.

 

[Eilat87]

To those of you that matched, is there ideal number of rotations one should do during 4th year in PM&R? Dates of some of these rotations are making it difficult to fit rotations at top places.

3, my friend is the consensus.

 

[Polynikes]

Please, for the love of God, where do you guys come up with this 3 rotation thing? That's absurd.

 

[Eilat87]

Please, for the love of God, where do you guys come up with this 3 rotation thing? That's absurd.

What do you think is a good #?

 

[MedBronc23]

Please, for the love of God, where do you guys come up with this 3 rotation thing? That's absurd.

I think one home rotation (if you have the option)and one away is minimum. Two away is probably fine. Three away is fantastic. I think you can match to a great program with only one rotation, if you can do a great job and get multiple strong letters. I do not think there is a hard fast rule per say. It all depends on how competitive you are, your goals for rotating (is it to gain exposure to PM&R vs audition for residency program you are interested in) and how competitive that program is. IMHO

That said cant go wrong with 2-3. Just remember quality is better than quantity, but having both is ideal.

 

[DrJMD]

I tend to think it's all relative. Aways are a great way to allow a program to put a personality and a work ethic to a paper application. They can also help get interviews that you otherwise probably wouldn't have gotten. The flip side of that is the program gets to know you for longer, which doesn't favor every personality. If you have a strong application and good interview skills, aways aren't even a must. We had a guy from our school match into a very good program without doing any.

 

[RangerBob]

A number of attendings/advisors told me they recommended three total PM&R rotations as the upper limit. You really want to take advantage of all the opportunities 4th year has to offer, and it's more difficult to do that when you take a lot of PM&R electives.

I agree to do at least one at a home institution. I did two away rotations. I personally would not have done any additional aways. However, ultimately you're the one who has to be comfortable with your decision, and the odds are no one will not interview you because you did four rotations.

I agree that aways aren't always a must. But here's what I can share about my aways:

1) First away: Realized it would be a good fit, Not perfect, but good enough to be very happy at, and close to family (my reason for rotating through the program was motivated solely by it's location). So this rotation validated I could be happy at the program, and the clerkship director offered to write me a letter, which helped me at a number of other programs.

2) Second away: Loved the few residents I worked with and I had a blast. But just as I was essentially being interviewed by attendings for the month I was there, I also interviewed them for a month, and the attendings fell short in my book (extremely smart, but not very patient-centered or focused on the "art of physiatry." I ended up turning down their interview offer--I just couldn't see myself going there. So this away helped me really focus on what to look for in a program--attendings who I wanted to emulate myself after. I took for granted up until this rotation that all quality PM&R programs would have really great and personable attendings. Granted, that will depend largely on one's own personality.

In the end: I matched at the program that was honestly the best fit. And it wasn't one I rotated at 🙂

I could have saved about $2000-$3000 had I not done any aways, but then, I also wouldn't have gotten as good of a sense of what to look for in a program. I'd recommend at least two--I think you really have to see more than one program.

 

[Polynikes]

I did one PMR rotation. Money does not grow on trees. I did an away rotation, got a letter from the PD at that rotation, and that's it. The rest of the year I did other stuff. There is absolutely no reason to do three PMR rotations.

What do you gain from that? Are you really scared you're not gonna match? It's PMR, not plastic surgery.

My letters were from a PMR PD, an IM PD, a neurologist, and a FM attending. So, I had one PMR letter.

Do an away or two (at most), write a good personal statement, and make sure you can answer the four or five questions you know you'll be asked at your interviews.

That's how you match in PMR. It definitely does NOT take three aways. That would be outrageously expensive.

 

[DrJMD]

It doesn't have to take 3 away rotations, no. If money isn't an issue, then there are plenty of reasons to do 3, though--more PM&R experience, see programs in their entirety and not just their happy faces on interview day, spend more time with residents, getting the full experience of a new city, etc.

While it isn't plastic surgery, applicants can make up for a weak spot/red flag on their applications with a rotation. For PM&R applicants with <220 interested in more competitive programs, away rotations would be very beneficial, as their applications would likely get screened out otherwise.

 

[NeuroAP86]

My home school doesn't offer a PM&R elective and I'm from Chicago but go to DO school in Florida so I would like to do most of 4th year if possible back home and would like to match there. I got a 225 on step 1 so I don't consider myself at a disadvantage for matching but I would like to match at one of the top programs. I had shadowing experience for my first 2 years with PM&R docs around my home school so I'm really wanting to do at least 2 rotations to gain more experience and try to get a good LOR from at least one of those rotations.

 

[PhysMedDoc]

In addition to all the good advice mentioned previously, depending on certain circumstances, you may want 1 or 3 PM&R rotations.

Say you rotated at your home institution which has an awesome, well-rounded PM&R department, then given the excellent exposure to the broad field of PM&R, which is about as broad as any field can get, as long as you got a great letter, and know a fair amount of PM&R knowledge by the end, then that one rotation maybe enough for you, and you can spend time doing other rotations that will help your Neuro and MSK knowledge & exam skills (ortho, rheum, neuro, rads, etc)

However, if your home institution lacks PM&R department or is not very well rounded (either overly outpatient or too much inpatient, usually the latter case), doing an away rotation or 2 in programs that will fill in the missing part of the exposure & education will help balance your application, and also help you to better determine what you eventually want to do in the future (and you will be asked about these things during interviews.)

IMO, in a well balanced program, you should be exposed to all of the following in some manner:
- Inpatient: traumatic and atraumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, amputees, some disability
(generalized disability as the admitting diagnosis for the 99 out of 100 admissions is NOT well
rounded), Pediatric rehab (may also be outpatient)
- Outpatient: general acute/chronic MSK pathology (peripheral & axial joints), Sports (acute injuries),
Ultrasound-guided interventions, Fluoroscopic-guided interventions, EMGs.
- Others: Prosthetics & orthotics and cardiac rehab (not necessary as a student IMO)

 

[Taliesinrk]

I thought 1 at your home school and 2 aways was a good number

 

[Baritonebass]

I did a 3rd yr selective(2weeks) and 1 4th yr elective... 1week stroke, 2weeks sci, 1 week outpatient... Got 2 PM&R letter neither person had a title or were gurus or fellowship trained but they knew me... Other letters came from family(sports med), and occ med(internal med)... Average boards score, failed a class 1st yr. applyied 15 programs got 13 interview invites no love from the places with Beaches. interviews Included Baylor, UTSW, Emory, Cornell, NYU, UAB, Carolina's, Mt Sinai... They all raked about my letters no one asked me about grades... My program recommended against away rotation as they had a model SCI. They recommended spending time to get a good letter instead of wasting money. Some programs though like always especially if you from a different region. Take it for what it's worth that was 2011 and I'm an MD

 

[nonotphysicist]

I say stack 'em up if money isn't an issue. There are 10 programs within commuting distance of my home school (NYC) and I got lucky with elective time at the end of MS3 and beginning of MS4 so I did 4 electives. I ended up with 2 PD letters and 2 others; I used 3 of those and 1 IM letter. Based on how my interviews went, I believe that my letters and breadth of experience went a long way for my candidacy. If you don't consider your scores and grades to be sterling (like I didn't) then reinforce your application in the dimensions you still have control over.

I echo that this is definitely not a crazy competitive field, but my impression coming away from more than a few places was that a lot of weight goes behind how well you got along with other members of this very small, connected field.

 

[PMRun]

I am from a DO school, and wanted to end up back geographically by my and my wife's family at the best program I could get. I did 3 away rotations 4th year (and 1 community PMR rotation third year), all at places where I could stay for free for the rotations (family/friends). I think the most important thing I learned on rotations was what I wanted in a program rather than what I actually learned on my rotations (although I learned a ton!).

I ended up ranking one of the three programs I rotated at highly, but I ended up ranking the program that I matched at ahead of all of the programs I rotated at. I found what questions I needed to ask the programs I interviewed at by the time interview time came around. I think that knowing what to ask was invaluable. I found I didn't have to have "filler questions" just to ask a question at the end of an interview. I had meaningful questions about each program I interviewed at to ask. I learned a lot about the transparency of the program by asking good questions.

I already had all of my LOR's in before I started any away rotations, so although I was offered the academic PMR letters on my away rotations, I politely declined them as I didn't feel that I needed them. (I had letters from IM, PMR community and another PMR who is well known in the field).

After interviews/rank/match I wondered if 3 away rotations was excessive, but I definitely learned more each rotation of what I wanted and what I didn't want. My opinion is 2-3 would be a good #. However whatever you do, bring your A game every day, that matters more than how many you do.

 

[Polynikes]

I did a 3rd yr selective(2weeks) and 1 4th yr elective... 1week stroke, 2weeks sci, 1 week outpatient... Got 2 PM&R letter neither person had a title or were gurus or fellowship trained but they knew me... Other letters came from family(sports med), and occ med(internal med)... Average boards score, failed a class 1st yr. applyied 15 programs got 13 interview invites no love from the places with Beaches. interviews Included Baylor, UTSW, Emory, Cornell, NYU, UAB, Carolina's, Mt Sinai... They all raked about my letters no one asked me about grades... My program recommended against away rotation as they had a model SCI. They recommended spending time to get a good letter instead of wasting money. Some programs though like always especially if you from a different region. Take it for what it's worth that was 2011 and I'm an MD

Yep...

This is my point. I spent three weeks on my personal statement, and I have a rather unique background, so I did one elective and basically interviewed where I wanted to interview. A US grad should have zero trouble matching.

 

[Taus]

to each his/her own....

I did 3 full away rotations at the top 3 programs that I was pretty certain that I'd want to train at (in addition to a 4th private practice PM&R sports/spine rotation). All were commutable from my house or I stayed with friends so it cost me nothing. I knew I wanted PM&R, knew each program was very strong and primarily wanted to make the most informed decision possible about where I wanted to train (in addition to of course learning and leaving a favorable impression of myself). To that end.... it was an extremely beneficial experience and helped me make the right choice for my rank list. The program I thought would be my clear #1 ended up being my #3. Everyone has different goals of why they do away rotations. For my goals it was the right decision, though of course it's not needed for everyone. It had nothing to do with being "scared not to match" - more so allowing me to pick the exact program I wanted to match to. FWIW I'm a DO, this was 2008 and I had some of those fancy things on paper like research, high usmle, etc etc. Fast forward 5 years..I'm about to graduate from the program I wanted #1, in the city I wanted and will start a solid agcme pain fellowship in July. I would do it all the same way again.

Once again.... to each his/her own....

 

[DrJMD]

Yep...

This is my point. I spent three weeks on my personal statement, and I have a rather unique background, so I did one elective and basically interviewed where I wanted to interview. A US grad should have zero trouble matching.

Yeah, but what did your application look like? Someone with a 205 in the 3rd or 4th quartile of their class probably won't get those same opportunities.

Some will disagree that the field is more competitive, but I personally know people who 3-4 years ago were interviewing at and matching into decent programs with sub-200 board scores. Those applications would have gotten screened out immediately this past year. Someone with a 215 a couple years back would have gotten way more interview opportunities than they would today.

 

[ZigPig]

To those of you that matched, is there ideal number of rotations one should do during 4th year in PM&R? Dates of some of these rotations are making it difficult to fit rotations at top places.

I did an adult PM&R and then a pediatric PM&R rotation at my home institution. I received many good interviews just doing these two rotations, with community physiatrists writing my letters.

My home institution doesn't have a PM&R residency... and I wish I had done an away rotation somewhere that was more academic/training focused.

 

[outdoorfanatic]

About how many internship programs did people apply to/rank?

 

[ZigPig]

About how many internship programs did people apply to/rank?

I don't know how many I applied to - I am thinking about 15 TY and IM prelim. I went on 6 TY interviews, and 2 IM prelim interviews.

 

[RehabDO]

I hear that three are ideal but less than that is fine. When it comes down to it the main reason is to talk about your experiences in the field and why you decided it was for you during the interview.

 

[sweetpotato]

I know this thread is getting off topic (we went from "where did you match?" to away rotations), but I thought it would be a good place to ask:

I am a carib 3rd year trying to schedule aways now and I have been turned down left and right for places that are like "we no longer have spots for FMGs to rotate here." Anybody have recommendations for places FMGs can still rotate at?

The "no FMGs allowed" seems like a new thing that has happened in the last few years where all of a sudden, you have to be from a LCME school that uses VSAS.

 

[Jumpu]

I know this thread is getting off topic (we went from "where did you match?" to away rotations), but I thought it would be a good place to ask:

I am a carib 3rd year trying to schedule aways now and I have been turned down left and right for places that are like "we no longer have spots for FMGs to rotate here." Anybody have recommendations for places FMGs can still rotate at?

The "no FMGs allowed" seems like a new thing that has happened in the last few years where all of a sudden, you have to be from a LCME school that uses VSAS.

We have FMGs at Marianjoy, you can try that.

 

[DrJMD]

I know this thread is getting off topic (we went from "where did you match?" to away rotations), but I thought it would be a good place to ask:

I am a carib 3rd year trying to schedule aways now and I have been turned down left and right for places that are like "we no longer have spots for FMGs to rotate here." Anybody have recommendations for places FMGs can still rotate at?

The "no FMGs allowed" seems like a new thing that has happened in the last few years where all of a sudden, you have to be from a LCME school that uses VSAS.

So you can't access VSAS, and that is the problem? There are some programs that don't use VSAS, and there are several who take FMGs into residency.

 

[Eilat87]

I know this thread is getting off topic (we went from "where did you match?" to away rotations), but I thought it would be a good place to ask:

I am a carib 3rd year trying to schedule aways now and I have been turned down left and right for places that are like "we no longer have spots for FMGs to rotate here." Anybody have recommendations for places FMGs can still rotate at?

The "no FMGs allowed" seems like a new thing that has happened in the last few years where all of a sudden, you have to be from a LCME school that uses VSAS.

UMDNJ takes SGU and Ross students.

http://njms.umdnj.edu/education/registrar/visitingstds.cfm

In addition to them, there are a bunch of places that take FMGs (Can't remember on the top of my head), just have to take a harder look.

 

[DubVille]

I know this thread is getting off topic (we went from "where did you match?" to away rotations), but I thought it would be a good place to ask:

I am a carib 3rd year trying to schedule aways now and I have been turned down left and right for places that are like "we no longer have spots for FMGs to rotate here." Anybody have recommendations for places FMGs can still rotate at?

The "no FMGs allowed" seems like a new thing that has happened in the last few years where all of a sudden, you have to be from a LCME school that uses VSAS.

Case/Metro in Cleveland.

 

[sweetpotato]

So you can't access VSAS, and that is the problem? There are some programs that don't use VSAS, and there are several who take FMGs into residency.

Yeah, it's weird. There are a lot of places that have FMGs in residency, and might not even use VSAS (like they use their own app), but then you call up the student coordinator and they are like "oh, btw, no FMGs anymore for rotations."

I wil try Marianjoy, Case Metro, and UMDNJ