Where do you draw the line?

[Incis0r]

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How long does it take to hone new graduate skills, in your opinion?

Depends on your school/experience, personal drive, and personal ability.

Vasco was doing an AMA here a while back, and he stated that schools with more clinical experience vs. less do not make a difference in the long run, but that they do make a difference in the short-term transition from dental school to practice. So if you go to a school which has a ton of endo, OS, and crown procedures for you to do, you'll be better prepared to advance your skills and will do so more quickly than someone who has not had that much experience with these procedures immediately after dental school....see what I mean?

In the same AMA, he shared that he had trouble for the first six months, but after that picked up the skills and rocked it! (this would be the First Five Years out of School thread)

There was a thread on here about a dentist titled something like "6 months out of dental school and already hating dentistry," and that guy did not do an AEGD. He went straight into practice, and he was messing everything up. He sounded so frustrated in his posts where he described having to redo so many treatments.

It depends on personal drive as well. I know dental students who push themselves to do frequent CE through dentaltown (the free ones) and who spend their free time in specialty clinics observing and assisting. To me, these guys are much more likely to be successful right out of school.

There has to be a reason why so many organizations (general dentist/private practitioners, the military, the VA, etc.) encourage a 1-year AEGD/GPR for general dentists who just graduated. There has to be a reason why New York now requires a 1-year AEGD/GPR to practice as a general dentist. There has to be a reason why CT now accepts licensure through AEGD/GPR. They are incentivizing this extra training because they have found that it really helps the new graduate be more confident in his/her skills and tx planning/delivery.

I personally am absolutely 100% going to do an AEGD, so in response to your question, FOR ME, it will take 1-year to hone major skills. If I get it done before then, great! I'll continue to practice and improve. That's why they call it "dental practice."

 

[Incis0r]

Sorry for the double-post. @oralcare123 , I found the posts/quotes I was talking about. All are by Vasco. Lots of great advice in his thread. See below.

Right out of school the first six months I was overwhelmed. Learning how to treatment plan was difficult, learning how to work out of multiple rooms was very difficult. Building up speed was difficult. The first six months was by far the hardest to date. I worked an average of 30 hours a week.

I would most certainly recommend a GPR or AEGD. Go to one that teaches advanced procedures, IV sedation, impacted 3rds removal, complicated endo, ortho, general surguries, and surgical and restorative aspects of implantology. In retrospect I wish I had done one.

In my opinion, the school you attend has more to do with how prepared you will be when you enter the "real world" post graduation and less to do with how great of a dentist you will eventually be.

When you get out of school if you Aquire and cultivate the above mentioned attributes, in my opinion, you will be an excellent dentist and be very productive. This would be regardless of what school you attended.

If you have a solid clinic experience at school you will adapt better and quicker to life after school.

If you don't have a solid clinic experience during school you will have a slower and more difficult time adjusting.

 

[tyunup]

Plus it's hard to fulfill the letter of recommendation requirement...need one from a Headmaster or Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor. Unfortunately, money is tight at my school and we don't have access to those kids of professionals


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I'm a muggle born squib

 

[strep mutans]

I'm a muggle born squib

Squibs are by definition wizard-born.

Smh.

 

[tyunup]

Squibs are by definition wizard-born.

Smh.

That's the joke - a "muggle born" squib

https://www.pinterest.com/adorkablegeek/i-m-not-a-muggle-i-m-a-muggle-born-squib/

 

[oralcare123]

I think it is too long. A person should pick up some speed, but not skills. Skills are learned in school
So, basically, one should choose a school with a good clinical program and not the cheap one, because in a long run you pay more in interest and miss practice time in GPR etc. to get more skills
Complicated procedures should be referred out, because you will never learn to do them as well and fast as a specialist. Complicated ortho? forget about it

 

[virtualmaster999]

 

[Incis0r]

I think it is too long. A person should pick up some speed, but not skills. Skills are learned in school
So, basically, one should choose a school with a good clinical program and not the cheap one, because in a long run you pay more in interest and miss practice time in GPR etc. to get more skills
Complicated procedures should be referred out, because you will never learn to do them as well and fast as a specialist. Complicated ortho? forget about it

I'm not understanding what you're saying- are you advocating for taking an expensive school and foregoing a residency?

 

[strep mutans]

That's the joke - a "muggle born" squib

https://www.pinterest.com/adorkablegeek/i-m-not-a-muggle-i-m-a-muggle-born-squib/

Jokes are by definition funny.

😉 I keed I keed.

 

[Weakfart]

View attachment 196832

 

[oralcare123]

I am for the school with plenty of clinical experience. This way you would not need a residency, you get everything from school and would not waste your time accumulating interest. Really, life of a GP is filled with fillings and crowns. Do you really need to spend another year or two practicing doing them?
If you want to do implants, there are CE courses, everything else, like "IV sedation, impacted 3rds removal, complicated endo, ortho, general surgeries", you would not do anyway

 

[Incis0r]

I am for the school with plenty of clinical experience. This way you would not need a residency, you get everything from school and would not waste your time accumulating interest. Really, life of a GP is filled with fillings and crowns. Do you really need to spend another year or two practicing doing them?
If you want to do implants, there are CE courses, everything else, like "IV sedation, impacted 3rds removal, complicated endo, ortho, general surgeries", you would not do anyway

I see where you're coming from. Here's one thing I neglected to mention- I'm hoping to be lucky enough to get an HPSP dental scholarship. If I get that, I won't have any debt, so I wouldn't accumulate interest during residency.

To each their own!

 

[OSUkid]

You misunderstood everything I said.
OP is not arguing anything. OP is asking a subjective question with neither judgment nor assumption.

bruh

 

[oralcare123]

Yea, you are payed, but very little.

 

[onepik]

In New York can you still do a GPR instead of having to write the boards?

 

[Incis0r]

In New York can you still do a GPR instead of having to write the boards?

You HAVE to do a GPR or AEGD. It's mandatory, not an option. See this article: http://www.adea.org/uploadedFiles/ADEA/Content_Conversion_Final/about_adea/ADEA_CP_August_2008.pdf

 

[strep mutans]

Let's try to stay on topic.

I would be interested in reading about the pros and cons of AEGD/GPR... in another thread. 😉

(I understand how they conversation got here, just trying to steer us back.)

 

[ajj70]

If all you care about in life is money, go to the cheapest school. If you have a little more depth to you, go to the school that'll make you the happiest. Compare the total difference in debt after a 20 year pay back plan and if that number makes you feel sick, go to the cheapest school. If there is a school you think has notably higher quality of life, go to that school. Do you.

SDN-complex is a thing and you'll find logic "beating" heart on here 90% of them time. If I was getting into dentistry for the money/greed element I would definitely say the cheaper school is the way to do that, but I'm in it for the profession. Even if I'm making a modest salary after taking out my loan payments every month there's nothing wrong with that.

I think where you are wrong on this issue is that there is an "ideal" school. Sure, there might be a school you like more than another, but any school will be what you make of it and is one school REALLY $100,000+ interest better than another? It has nothing to do with greed and everything to do with being financially responsible. Do you buy clothing on sale or pay full price only? Do you just pay sticker price for your car or do you negotiate? Negotiating for a car would be considered greed under your thinking....

I would be willing to pay $50,000 for a superior school but not $100,000 or more. I think it's important to keep things in perspective and remember why you went into dentistry and not get caught up with trivialities like attending the most prestigious school. On the other hand, if the only school I was accepted to cost $400,000 I would still matriculate there and not wait to reapply another cycle. There's only so long a person can keep his or her life on hold, and it's much better in my opinion to become a dentist sooner than save tuition by applying next year with no guarantee of an acceptance.

Can you list the "superior" schools for me please?

 

[Soleus715]

This was mentioned earlier, but there are variables which are considered far more important to one student compared to another.
It could be lots of things from tuition, location (distance from family, environment, safety, etc), cost of living, diversity, philosophy, curriculum, specialization, class size, etc, etc, etc.

I believe any applicant can call a school "superior" to another and it'll be true for that individual and that individual ONLY because they made that choice.

The "ideal" school is the one that fits all of the variables that an applicant is looking to find in a school. What's wrong with that?
It's pretty straight forward in my opinion.

 

[electrax]

This was mentioned earlier, but there are variables which are considered far more important to one student compared to another.
It could be lots of things from tuition, location (distance from family, environment, safety, etc), cost of living, diversity, philosophy, curriculum, specialization, class size, etc, etc, etc.

I believe any applicant can call a school "superior" to another and it'll be true for that individual and that individual ONLY because they made that choice.

The "ideal" school is the one that fits all of the variables that an applicant is looking to find in a school. What's wrong with that?
It's pretty straight forward in my opinion.

Strong advice game.

 

[Frank22]

Can you list the "superior" schools for me please?

I believe any applicant can call a school "superior" to another and it'll be true for that individual and that individual ONLY because they made that choice.

As Soleus715 noted, I was using "superior" as a categorical, rather than a quantitative variable. To some people, yellow is a "superior" color than red, and to some people Marquette is a superior school to Louisville. I should have perhaps used a term more appropriate than "superior" which truly conveys something quantitatively (rather than merely subjectively) greater; I apologize for my poor diction in this case.

 

[Incis0r]

@strep mutans @virtualmaster999

Hi guys,

I wish to recant something that I posted on here.
Previously, VM, I answered your question which is "what would you do if your only option was $400K school?"

I had previously answered that I would go to a 400K school.

Well I have done more research, talked to some people, thought about the issue more, and I am hereby stating that I would NOT go to a 400K school, EVEN IF THAT IS THE ONLY SCHOOL I GOT INTO.

To me, that cost of attendance is nuts and I would not take out loans for it. Now if I got parental support or a full scholarship, sure I'd do it, but not on loans.

I would either a) find a cheaper state-school and try again or b) pick a different profession.

Thanks for the thought-provoking questions and the awesome job leading this thread.

@strep mutans - I now draw the line at $250k loans including interest. Not a penny more.

 

[virtualmaster999]

@strep mutans @virtualmaster999

Hi guys,

I wish to recant something that I posted on here.
Previously, VM, I answered your question which is "what would you do if your only option was $400K school?"

I had previously answered that I would go to a 400K school.

Well I have done more research, talked to some people, thought about the issue more, and I am hereby stating that I would NOT go to a 400K school, EVEN IF THAT IS THE ONLY SCHOOL I GOT INTO.

To me, that cost of attendance is nuts and I would not take out loans for it. Now if I got parental support or a full scholarship, sure I'd do it, but not on loans.

I would either a) find a cheaper state-school and try again or b) pick a different profession.

Thanks for the thought-provoking questions and the awesome job leading this thread.

It's definitely a big amount no doubt..but you cant give up on the dream. Say you wanted to apply next cycle, even with that acceptance- you wouldn't know if you would get in 100% right? Idk, it's risky, and I see where you're coming from for sure. It would definitely be a tough decision!

 

[Incis0r]

It's definitely a big amount no doubt..but you cant give up on the dream. Say you wanted to apply next cycle, even with that acceptance- you wouldn't know if you would get in 100% right? Idk, it's risky, and I see where you're coming from for sure. It would definitely be a tough decision!

I love dentistry and what I've seen. But I don't love it enough to commit (in my opinion) financial suicide. If I don't get in anywhere else I'll find an alternate career path.

I see where you are coming from, however, and I respect you for respecting my opinion.

 

[480640]

.

 

[Incis0r]

I choose the cheaper school instead of my dream school for ~50k.
I think I would have preferred paying the 50k to go to my dream school, BUT I am a D1 and I don't know how life will be like during loan repayments. Hopefully I'll change my mind.

Think of it like this...50K will grow to 70K over time with interest. That's 3K a month for 2 years. You will be 2 years ahead in loan repayment than people at the more expensive school and you will be 2 years closer to your dream life and your goals.

 

[virtualmaster999]

Think of it like this...50K will grow to 70K over time with interest. That's 3K a month for 2 years. You will be 2 years ahead in loan repayment than people at the more expensive school and you will be 2 years closer to your dream life and your goals.

That's very true indeed. Also, I'm not sure if it was addressed earlier but what if 50k was the difference between you coming out significantly more experienced. Would it be in consideration for people?


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[darknightzzz]

a lot of comments here revolved around people having choices such as acceptances to 1 cheap school and 1 private expensive school (100k$ difference in price tag over 4 years is assumed).

however, im sure many people who are not in the application cycle are strong minded to say they will still apply to private schools but will not go to a 400k$ school if that is their only acceptance.

please just wait until you go through a cycle, the STRESS, the DEPRESSION, and the SELF-DOUBT will kick in that if you dont get in cheap school and the 400k$ school is your only ticket to be a dentist, you (i think) will still have to take it.

imagine shelling out 6k$ for application fee and interviews then turning down private school acceptance down to reapply with no guarantee of admission to cheap school is questionable.

P/S: im going through the process now and with the bipolar moods I have been experiencing lately, I DO NOT WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS CYCLE AGAIN and I WILL TAKE the 400k$ DEBT KNOWING I WILL SWIM IN DEBT

on another note: the person/people can know himself/herself/themselves and get a head start applying to HPSP military scholarships and put their trust in they will get the scholarship (willing to be deployed and be owned for Army for example)

the people at expensive private schools who are on military HPSP are like mushrooms on ground after raining. and trust me most of them get in HPSP with AA 19, 20 so no superhuman stat is needed (may be I say this to reassure myself)

 

[Incis0r]

That's very true indeed. Also, I'm not sure if it was addressed earlier but what if 50k was the difference between you coming out significantly more experienced. Would it be in consideration for people?


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So now we're saying the following:
School 1: Cost = X
School 2: Cost = X + 50K. Has significantly more clinical experience.

Average cost of attendance is around 300K (conservatively speaking) right now, so let's let 300K equal X.

School 1: Cost = $300K
School 2: Cost = $350K

Now I plan to do an AEGD/GPR no matter what. But for your example, let's give the School 2 grad the benefit of the doubt and say they come out swinging directly into practice.

Grad from School 1: Loans = $300,000 * 1.07 (7% interest) = $321K. BUT we had a $50K pre-tax stipend from the AEGD...which is around 43K after taxes. Let's just say we used all of that to live on and paid nothing on loans.

Grad from School 2: Loans = $350,000 * 1.07 (7% interest) = $374.5K. Generally, newly minted dentists are making around $90K... (I got this from dentaltown)....but let's just bump it up to 100K. So after tax that falls to about 83K (17% effective tax rate which is VERY generous). Assume you have the same standard of living as Grad from school 1....so 43K. 83K-43K = 40K. Now if you throw the remaining 40K at loans, you have $374.5k-40k = 334.5k.

Summary:
Grad from school 1 (300K loans before interest) did a 1-year AEGD/GPR and came out VERY clinically advanced and with $321K in loans after interest. He did not make any payments on his loans during the residency (you can do this via grace periods etc.)

Grad from school 2 (350K loans before interest) did NOT do a 1-year AEGD/GPR and came out with the clinical skills his school gave him. Now yes, some schools are known to be good for training G.P.s, but compared to someone with an AEGD, you'll not be as proficient as them and, by extension, not as productive as them. Grad from school 2 made $100K (again, very generous considering the economy), had the same standard of living as Grad from School 1, and paid off 40K of loans to end up with $334.5K.

Conclusion:
Grad from School 1 went to the cheaper school, did an AEGD-1, and still ended up with less loans than Grad from School 2 (50K more expensive pre-interset). Grad from School 1 is more clinically advanced than Grad from School 2 due to the AEGD, that Grad from School 2 did not do.

Which would you rather be?

 

[Incis0r]

please just wait until you go through a cycle, the STRESS, the DEPRESSION, and the SELF-DOUBT will kick in that if you dont get in cheap school and the 400k$ school is your only ticket to be a dentist, you (i think) will still have to take it.

imagine shelling out 6k$ for application fee and interviews then turning down private school acceptance down to reapply with no guarantee of admission to cheap school is questionable.

P/S: im going through the process now and with the bipolar moods I have been experiencing lately, I DO NOT WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS CYCLE AGAIN and I WILL TAKE the 400k$ DEBT KNOWING I WILL SWIM IN DEBT

I feel for you and I understand the stress you are going through. I wish you the best of luck this cycle.

However, I have spoken with WAY too many experienced dentists who are seeing the crap that grads who take 400K+ interest in loans are going through. I'm not even going to name all of it on here. BUT if any of you want to see a glimpse of the reality that grads w/ 400K debt are going through, please proceed to create a free dentaltown account and view this thread: http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=136&t=193522&pg=1&st=HPSP&g=1

You will need a strong stomach to get through that thread. It is sobering and shows you the reality and future of the dental profession.

Each person is responsible for his or her own decisions. Your future depends on the decisions you make now.

I have said it before and I will say it again. To ME, $400k in loans before interest is financial suicide. I will not do it. I like dentistry, but not so much that I will destroy my financial future over it. I am researching alternate, cost-effective career paths as backups.

That said, I respect that some people will feel so committed to being a dentist that they want to see it through, no matter the cost. And I respect them for their drive. It's just not for me.

 

[480640]

.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

I think it'd be interesting to revisit this thread in December when people (hopefully) have acceptances and decisions to make instead of hypothetical situations

 

[darknightzzz]

Making a decision that will make a direct impact on the foundational education for the quite probably lifelong profession you choose, financial health of your next decade, student colleagues that you will spend around 8 hours everyday for 4 years, and an array of other significant things that make up your life, is not wise at all to make using exclusively your emotions. I say this after having gone through the exact same situation you are going through or even worse. I wasn't able to think with perspective and clarity of mind while making these decisions and didn't realize it after a couple of months when I could think rationally. I'm assuming it will happen to you too. I suggest you take advice from people who know you and who have gone through the same. I would have made wiser decisions had I had coping mechanisms and listened carefully to what people told me.

so you got in a super expensive dental school but turn it down and now in process of improving your app and reapply?

our little boy @Incis0r wont be applying until next year so i know him. what about u?

 

[Incis0r]

so you got in a super expensive dental school but turn it down and now in process of improving your app and reapply?

our little boy @Incis0r wont be applying until next year so i know him. what about u?

Dude just promise me one thing- you'll stick around SDN once you start dental school...I bet you're going to forget me once you become a big shot dentist 🙁

 

[480640]

.

 

[virtualmaster999]

So now we're saying the following:
School 1: Cost = X
School 2: Cost = X + 50K. Has significantly more clinical experience.

Average cost of attendance is around 300K (conservatively speaking) right now, so let's let 300K equal X.

School 1: Cost = $300K
School 2: Cost = $350K

Now I plan to do an AEGD/GPR no matter what. But for your example, let's give the School 2 grad the benefit of the doubt and say they come out swinging directly into practice.

Grad from School 1: Loans = $300,000 * 1.07 (7% interest) = $321K. BUT we had a $50K pre-tax stipend from the AEGD...which is around 43K after taxes. Let's just say we used all of that to live on and paid nothing on loans.

Grad from School 2: Loans = $350,000 * 1.07 (7% interest) = $374.5K. Generally, newly minted dentists are making around $90K... (I got this from dentaltown)....but let's just bump it up to 100K. So after tax that falls to about 83K (17% effective tax rate which is VERY generous). Assume you have the same standard of living as Grad from school 1....so 43K. 83K-43K = 40K. Now if you throw the remaining 40K at loans, you have $374.5k-40k = 334.5k.

Summary:
Grad from school 1 (300K loans before interest) did a 1-year AEGD/GPR and came out VERY clinically advanced and with $321K in loans after interest. He did not make any payments on his loans during the residency (you can do this via grace periods etc.)

Grad from school 2 (350K loans before interest) did NOT do a 1-year AEGD/GPR and came out with the clinical skills his school gave him. Now yes, some schools are known to be good for training G.P.s, but compared to someone with an AEGD, you'll not be as proficient as them and, by extension, not as productive as them. Grad from school 2 made $100K (again, very generous considering the economy), had the same standard of living as Grad from School 1, and paid off 40K of loans to end up with $334.5K.

Conclusion:
Grad from School 1 went to the cheaper school, did an AEGD-1, and still ended up with less loans than Grad from School 2 (50K more expensive pre-interset). Grad from School 1 is more clinically advanced than Grad from School 2 due to the AEGD, that Grad from School 2 did not do.

Which would you rather be?.

Hmm you definitely bring up good points, and back it up fairly no doubt about it. What if though the more advanced school that costs 50k more will allow you to have the same experience (or better) than the time you take with school 1 + the AEGD?

 

[strep mutans]

I think it'd be interesting to revisit this thread in December when people (hopefully) have acceptances and decisions to make instead of hypothetical situations

True. And hopefully the discussion will then return to "cheapest school vs favorite school" instead of "no school vs 400k school" 😉 -- hopefully that's not a decision anyone here will need to make.

 

[darknightzzz]

Dude just promise me one thing- you'll stick around SDN once you start dental school...I bet you're going to forget me once you become a big shot dentist 🙁

LOL If I manage to get in to become a dentist, lets leave big shot for later LOL. too stressed to comment more on sdn these days. Just try to stay away from it as far as I can.

I'm a d1.

and your school is an instate 200k school? or are you at one of the mentioned financial suicide school and regretting? yes I know what you mean but I guess in a worst case scenario, life throws you lemons you gotta make lemonade

 

[hellofuturedentists]

True. And hopefully the discussion will then return to "cheapest school vs favorite school" instead of "no school vs 400k school" 😉 -- hopefully that's not a decision anyone here will need to make.

Seriously. But it wouldn't be SDN if the thread didn't derail and escalate, now would it?

 

[Incis0r]

Hmm you definitely bring up good points, and back it up fairly no doubt about it. What if though the more advanced school that costs 50k more will allow you to have the same experience (or better) than the time you take with school 1 + the AEGD?.

It's the same calculation. In my calculation, I assumed that the more advanced school gave you the same experience as an AEGD- that's why I didn't put an AEGD year for that student (Which is a stretch- AEGD grads on the whole have an advantage over dental school grads).

Regardless, it doesn't change the numbers. You still come out ahead by going to the cheaper school and doing an AEGD.

Now what would be best is if you go to a school that gives you a clinical experience like an AEGD, that is cheap, AND then do an AEGD afterwards. Man you'd be ballin' afterwards.

 

[Incis0r]

LOL If I manage to get in to become a dentist, lets leave big shot for later LOL. too stressed to comment more on sdn these days. Just try to stay away from it as far as I can.

Watch this video- it's what I watch when I'm stressed.

 

[virtualmaster999]

Watch this video- it's what I watch when I'm stressed.

It means no worries, for the rest of your dayzzzzzzzzzz!

 

[Incis0r]

It means no worries, for the rest of your dayzzzzzzzzzz!

It's our problem-freeeeeeeeee PHILOSSOPHYYYYYYYYYY

 

[virtualmaster999]

It's your problem-freeeeeeeeee PHILOSSOPHYYYYYYYYYY

Say it with me kids! HAKUNA MATATAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

 

[trimethylxanthine]

It means no worries, for the rest of your dayzzzzzzzzzz!

It's our problem free philosophy, Hakuna Matata!!!!!!

 

[Incis0r]

Say it with me kids! HAKUNA MATATAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

It's our problem free philosophy, Hakuna Matata!!!!!!

ONE MORE TIME!

Hakuna Matata!!!! It means No Worries for the rest of your days!!!!!

 

[darknightzzz]

great.

 

[ajj70]

That's very true indeed. Also, I'm not sure if it was addressed earlier but what if 50k was the difference between you coming out significantly more experienced. Would it be in consideration for people?


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There is a post here somewhere that I think should be a sticky at the top. It was from a year or two ago and the poster was a newish DS grad. He talked about his debt and his repayment plan. The basics were that he was working for a corporate dental office, putting in a lot of hours, bringing in somewhere in the neighborhood of $200K during his second year working, 150K after his first year. He said that he got a LOT of experience that first year because he was able to shadow or ask for assistance from the more experienced dentists in the office and simply just had a ton of patients to work on. He was living very frugally and will have his loan debt paid off in less than 5 years. He also had enough to start setting aside money to purchase a practice, which he planned on doing the year he paid off his loans. I would MUCH rather go to a less expensive school and follow a plan like his vs pay more for a "dream" school. The experience will come and I'd rather earn 150K getting that experience than paying 50K or more to get the experience in school. Part of my Dream School, however, is to go to the cheapest school possible. I'm hoping I will have a choice when the time comes but in the long run, looking 30 years down the road, you will be FAR better off paying 400K for school vs 300K and starting a year earlier in your practice then you will paying and waiting for a second cycle of applications. Just some rough numbers, say you max out a 401K in your first year. That $18,000 in 30 years will turn into about $185,000 at a conservative 6%.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

\.