Where do you (personally) draw the line to attendings?

[Ypo.]

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Where would you draw the line as far as sticking up for yourself/ bringing up an issue to the administration at your school regarding an attending who you felt was over the line?

I'm interested in hearing what other's have put up with/not put up with and what the outcomes were. 🙂

 

[BillyWitchDoctr]

Is there a specific situation you're concerned about? Some things are pretty clearly unacceptable (racist remarks, sexual harassment, etc) but I'd be wary about picking a fight if it's something marginal. Even if you're right and even if you win you may also get a reputation that you don't want...so I guess I'm saying pick your battles.

 

[Ypo.]

Is there a specific situation you're concerned about? Some things are pretty clearly unacceptable (racist remarks, sexual harassment, etc) but I'd be wary about picking a fight if it's something marginal. Even if you're right and even if you win you may also get a reputation that you don't want...so I guess I'm saying pick your battles.

I'm not talking about picking a fight. I'm talking about taking appropriate avenues, such as bringing up their behavior to the clerkship director.

But no, not really wondering about anything in particular. Actually, the clear cut cases (sexual harassment, racist remarks) are pretty obvious. It's the borderline stuff that I'm curious about.

 

[KidDr]

It's the borderline stuff that I'm curious about.

like what?

 

[Ypo.]

like what?

Well, I was hoping people would share some stories, since we've all heard of attendings from hell (no offense). You know, like the attending who seems to be going out of their way to 'target' you or puts you down/tries to humiliate you in front of patients. Or who criticizes the way you do something without offering any input about how they would do it. Or who holds you after the time you are supposed to go home to lecture you on mundane stuff that you already know. Or who tries to get you to go on call when it's not your responsibility. Or just the attending who has a huge power trip and a nasty personality disorder to boot.

 

[BillyWitchDoctr]

Well, I was hoping people would share some stories, since we've all heard of attendings from hell (no offense). You know, like the attending who seems to be going out of their way to 'target' you or puts you down/tries to humiliate you in front of patients. Or who criticizes the way you do something without offering any input about how they would do it. Or who holds you after the time you are supposed to go home to lecture you on mundane stuff that you already know. Or who tries to get you to go on call when it's not your responsibility. Or just the attending who has a huge power trip and a nasty personality disorder to boot.

I'd say to just suck it up. You're going to encounter a lot of people (attendings, residents, ancillary staff, etc) with malignant personalities over your medical education. It's too bad but it's just kind of the way it is.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Well, I was hoping people would share some stories, since we've all heard of attendings from hell (no offense). You know, like the attending who seems to be going out of their way to 'target' you or puts you down/tries to humiliate you in front of patients. Or who criticizes the way you do something without offering any input about how they would do it. Or who holds you after the time you are supposed to go home to lecture you on mundane stuff that you already know. Or who tries to get you to go on call when it's not your responsibility. Or just the attending who has a huge power trip and a nasty personality disorder to boot.

Even though all that stuff sucks, it's not worth going to the course director for. Maybe to be discused later after your evaluations have been processed so not to jeapordize your grade (which is likely to already be taking a hit with a bad evaluation from an attending doing such things). Even though this stuff is officially "unacceptable", complaining about it is just going to get you pegged as a whiner or someone who can't take the heat.

 

[ChildNeuro]

Even though all that stuff sucks, it's not worth going to the course director for. Maybe to be discused later after your evaluations have been processed so not to jeapordize your grade (which is likely to already be taking a hit with a bad evaluation from an attending doing such things). Even though this stuff is officially "unacceptable", complaining about it is just going to get you pegged as a whiner or someone who can't take the heat.

All schools should have a procedure for complaint regarding attendings who go off the rails. I would file a complaint for an attending who obviously doesn't care one bit about students exposed to their abuse. It helps following students. It is sad how no one care about this sort of treatment but I think it makes care vastly inferior.

 

[jdh71]

Well, I was hoping people would share some stories, since we've all heard of attendings from hell (no offense). You know, like the attending who seems to be going out of their way to 'target' you or puts you down/tries to humiliate you in front of patients. Or who criticizes the way you do something without offering any input about how they would do it. Or who holds you after the time you are supposed to go home to lecture you on mundane stuff that you already know. Or who tries to get you to go on call when it's not your responsibility. Or just the attending who has a huge power trip and a nasty personality disorder to boot.

I'm sorry this is happening. I had six weeks of hell on general surgery like this. Seemingly out of nowhere I was one attending's target. At first I was in denial - "this is NOT happening". Then I spent a time TRYING so hard to be "good" so the attending would see I was a good student and lay off. I finally settled into a place where I accepted my situation and stopped letting her get to me - interestingly enough, when I stopped scampering around, she started leaving me alone - but still handed me a horrid eval. I returned the favor.

During this time a person tipped me into Castaneda and "petty tyrants" - I discovered this was a time to embrace and rise to the challenge. In the end, it's all personal growth. Make of it what you can.

BTW - you can usually deal with character assassination evals with the course secretary. Tell her about the situation and have her ask other attendings (give her names) you worked with about your performance. Some of these characters have a reputation for this kind of asinine behavior and therefore that makes their evals crap and untrustworthy.

 

[Angeliqua]

Well, I was hoping people would share some stories, since we've all heard of attendings from hell (no offense). You know, like the attending who seems to be going out of their way to 'target' you or puts you down/tries to humiliate you in front of patients. Or who criticizes the way you do something without offering any input about how they would do it. Or who holds you after the time you are supposed to go home to lecture you on mundane stuff that you already know. Or who tries to get you to go on call when it's not your responsibility. Or just the attending who has a huge power trip and a nasty personality disorder to boot.

To be honest, it kind of sounds like this person is not trying to be a jackass...but rather to push you in a good way. It may feel like targeting and humiliation, but he is really trying to just put you on the spot where you will be and should be in a mere 1.5 years (or less). Especially when you mention the extra on-call stuff; think about it, no one wants someone they don't trust, like or see potential in to be around anymore than they have to. Same goes for the "mundane" lectures. Trust me, this attending has more to get to than you do and wouldn't waste his time just to be a prick.

Think about it from that perspective

 

[Hard24Get]

Don't most med schools have 360 degree evals? I have pretty thick skin, I write whatever I haven't gotten over by the end of the rotation on the person's eval . I have to admit nothing terrible has happened to me, although perceptions matter (jokes in the OR just make me laugh, etc).

 

[lil pook]

i believe in face to face confrontation personally, but only in EXTREME circumstances. just ignoring them most of the time will usually work. act like you don't give a **** and they will usually leave you alone.

or you can always smile and shrug....that usually shuts 'em up real quick..unless they have a particular hard on for you.

but really, most on here are right regarding just dealing with it. if it's just stupid crap like calling you out in front of others, or correcting you in front of pts....well, DEAL WITH IT. that is the nature of this harsh business at times.

now, if it's cruel and unusual harrassment, makes you feel like strangling the person, or is seriously giving you nightmares at night, maybe you should go to someone...but personally, i like to communicate one to one with the person first.

stand up for yourself. dont be scared....seriously...what are they gonna do? give you a crap eval?.. you're gonna get one anyway..so I say FCUCk 'em. lol

 

[Arctic Char]

I'd say to just suck it up. You're going to encounter a lot of people (attendings, residents, ancillary staff, etc) with malignant personalities over your medical education. It's too bad but it's just kind of the way it is.

👍 fact of life.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Short of a gross violation of conduct (sexual/racial/ethnic harrassment or physical assault) I would probably just rip the attending annonymously on your evaluation.

You really don't want to get into a your-word-against-theirs with an attending. To succeed you would needed to have documented in detail actual conversations in which you were consistently belittled and abused. Going to a course director with a chief complaint of "he was mean to me" is just going to make you look like a whiner.

Look, alot of really insecure people go into medicine. One of their favorite games is to pretend like since they were squeezed from the womb knowing all about glomerulonephritis they can belittle you for failing to have the knowledge. Most of them suck and life and hate their jobs anyway.

One solution: be hypervigilant about the way you act towards those below you. It has been very interesting to watch my M4 colleagues on sub-i's complaining about the M3s, as my classmates and I weren't just as green one year ago...

 

[surrender903]

if it werent for the jerks in life, the nice people would never be noticed.

 

[Gem134]

I think it is an experience in learning new tricks. If you speak up, some (many?) people will make it worse for you. But it can be case dependent. Try and get some detachment and think it through, ask someone you trust for their opinion. Also, consider that others are also observing this behavior and if you do not react, they will be sympathetic towards you and things do happen behind the scenes.

Often, poor behavior is someone just taking out their frustrations on another or just part of the system. Either way, see if you can come up with lots of hard core coping skills that will give you a teflon hide and a backbone of steel. Try this: If someone gives you sh&t, look at it as their pathetic problem. Be detached, observe their behavior like you are a journalist covering an interesting news story. Take notes, consider why someone would behave like that. But don't react - if you can help it. If someone hassles you, act like you don't notice, smile and come back stronger. Ask them for feedback, stuff like that. Play dumb, ignore the digs.

People in medicine can be very petty and cruel, it's often not worth it to try and make things fair. The best thing you can do is learn from it and make yourself stronger - you will come out a winner. And remember, it's never worth it to wrestle with pigs, you get muddy and they just have a good time.

 

[Ypo.]

Lots of good advice in this thread. Thanks.