Where should I go?

[Triathlon]

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As I have browsed the threads in search of a feel for the environment. I get the feeling that finding a residency spot might be easy. Is this a false assumption. I am a D.O. student (MSIII) with average grades and good clinical grades so far. I am commited to the field and I get along with people very well. So my question is this; should I feel confident in applying to the couple spots that I want to go to, or apply wide. Of course it all depends on the particular program but generally speaking what is the competition like out there? Will I get offers to prematch or will I be hoping to match?
I hope this isn't too boring.

 

[Big Lebowski]

Relatively speaking...psychiatry remains an easy match. However, the likelihood of getting the program you want depends on where you are interested. For example, if you were to apply to, say, Longwood and Columbia only; there would be a possibility of not matching.

Based on your brief descriptors, you likely find a good program you're happy with. I would encourage you to look beyond just a couple places. Some programs might really surprise you; while others that you thought you would like, end up being disappointing. Traveling can get expensive and time consuming; but it's worth it in the end.

Good luck...

 

[Doc Samson]

Relatively speaking...psychiatry remains an easy match. However, the likelihood of getting the program you want depends on where you are interested. For example, if you were to apply to, say, Longwood and Columbia only; there would be a possibility of not matching.

Based on your brief descriptors, you likely find a good program you're happy with. I would encourage you to look beyond just a couple places. Some programs might really surprise you; while others that you thought you would like, end up being disappointing. Traveling can get expensive and time consuming; but it's worth it in the end.

Good luck...

You should be able to find a spot somewhere, but you should be aware that it is extremely rare (though not unheard of) for the top tier programs to take D.O.'s. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it's true.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

You should be able to find a spot somewhere, but you should be aware that it is extremely rare (though not unheard of) for the top tier programs to take D.O.'s. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it's true.

🙄

Depends on what you mean by "top tier". I would say that there are several top tier programs in the Midwest, at least, who would be VERY happy to match a motivated D.O. with an interest in psych. I know that there is a bit of attitude in the NE USA about their "top tiers" being a tier above the rest of us, but I imagine that you'll do fine.

 

[Doc Samson]

🙄

Depends on what you mean by "top tier". I would say that there are several top tier programs in the Midwest, at least, who would be VERY happy to match a motivated D.O. with an interest in psych. I know that there is a bit of attitude in the NE USA about their "top tiers" being a tier above the rest of us, but I imagine that you'll do fine.

Point taken. Despite going to med school in the great Midwest, I know very little about psychiatric training there outside of U. of Michigan, which has 1 or 2 DOs in their program (I was actually thinking of Michigan when I made the "rarely" qualifier above).

Not to hijack the thread (as I promptly do so), but I think that the NE cities view their "tier" as being "above" other cities not because of individual programs, but because of the academic psychiatric community as a whole. Fantastic programs in other cities are often "the only show in town", while MGH/McLean, Longwood, Cambridge, BU, etc. in Boston, Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Mt. Sinai, BI, St. V's, etc. in NYC, or UPenn, Temple, Jefferson, Drexel, etc. in Philly get to cross-pollenate and share the wealth. Throw in a number of psychoanalytic institutes (just for you Norto) in each city, and you get a thriving psychiatric milieu that might be hard to recreate in smaller cities. Obviously Chicago is the prominent outlier in this model. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Triathlon]

If I want to be an outpatient psychiatrist in the Rockymountains, what difference is a tier or two gonna make? Will I be that much better as a psychiatrist having trained in boston vs. Utah? I will check out a few more places than I was planning, but I am looking for a good fit all around. I am not too much into status or hanging certificates on my wall. I guess that is evident by my first choice of medical schools.
Anyway I am not trying to be obnoxious or cover up for inability. I guess I just see some of the "top tier" locales as prestigious by association. I know there is probably plenty of evidence to refute this (i.e. advances in research, etc), but really don't we all read from the same books? Isn't a car with a ten gallon gas tank going to be filled with ten gallons at any gas station?
Maybe I want to open this up to discussion.
Is it the program that makes the doctor? Or is it the doctor that makes the doctor? Would I be a "better" doctor had I chosen to go to the M.D. school? Would I become "significantly" better in psychiatry if I went to a top tier program? I am really curious?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

If I want to be an outpatient psychiatrist in the Rockymountains, what difference is a tier or two gonna make?....I guess I just see some of the "top tier" locales as prestigious by association. I know there is probably plenty of evidence to refute this (i.e. advances in research, etc), but really don't we all read from the same books? ... Would I become "significantly" better in psychiatry if I went to a top tier program? I am really curious?

You're on the right track. Sounds like you'd be more than happy at Utah or Colorado for residency...

 

[Anasazi23]

Is it the program that makes the doctor? Or is it the doctor that makes the doctor? Would I be a "better" doctor had I chosen to go to the M.D. school? Would I become "significantly" better in psychiatry if I went to a top tier program? I am really curious?

That is a good question.

My correct opinion is that:
















It's the person that makes the doctor.


Who wants to flame?
Bring it.
😛

 

[Doc Samson]

If I want to be an outpatient psychiatrist in the Rockymountains, what difference is a tier or two gonna make? Will I be that much better as a psychiatrist having trained in boston vs. Utah? I will check out a few more places than I was planning, but I am looking for a good fit all around. I am not too much into status or hanging certificates on my wall. I guess that is evident by my first choice of medical schools.
Anyway I am not trying to be obnoxious or cover up for inability. I guess I just see some of the "top tier" locales as prestigious by association. I know there is probably plenty of evidence to refute this (i.e. advances in research, etc), but really don't we all read from the same books? Isn't a car with a ten gallon gas tank going to be filled with ten gallons at any gas station?
Maybe I want to open this up to discussion.
Is it the program that makes the doctor? Or is it the doctor that makes the doctor? Would I be a "better" doctor had I chosen to go to the M.D. school? Would I become "significantly" better in psychiatry if I went to a top tier program? I am really curious?

For the most part, I agree that there are lots of great programs producing lots of great clinicians. The whole "tier" thing is really only of significance if you're thinking of an academic career (which I am). On the other hand, while we all read the same textbooks, there is something to be said for being supervised and taught by the folks who write the textbooks (not least of which is hearing about new concepts that weren't around at the time of publication for the last issue). I think the whole program making the doctor vs person making the doctor is a bit of a red herring. No program can turn someone with no aptitude for the work into an awesome psychiatrist, but if you're starting out with the same basic tools, then there is certainly some benefit to being a little closer to the cutting edge.

 

[Anasazi23]

Actually, I tend to agree with Doc Samson. All things being equal, a better program with more broad expsoure to patient types, pathologies, with better mentoring, broad formulary, medical training and elective experience, for example, will produce a more refined psychiatrist. As he correctly points out, however, is the common sense reality that an unmotivated or disinterested resident will not become a great psychiatrist no matter what program they attend. This is true in all branches of medicine - not just psychiatry.

My point above was that a very bright and interested psychiatry resident can find ways to learn even at suboptimal programs. The opposite of this is commonly seen in "top tier" residencies that produce only average or even sub-par psychiatry residents. Of course, the opposite to the above opposite is also true....that lower tier programs attract lower tier residents, and thus produce lower tier psychiatrists.

 

[crazyshrink]

I am going through the match as we speak. I, too, have struggled with the "tier" issue. I know that Mayo Rochester has D.O.s. I know it is not the Ivy League of the Northeast, but I would consider it top tier. I think it depends on what you are looking for in a program. I agree with the notes above that many institutions with huge research resources are looking for M.D.s, and even more than that, it is easier to join them if you have done research. I am trying to decide between Mayo and Duke. Duke has a great name, big research, great reputation. Mayo has a warm feel, beautiful facilities, great mentoring, and all of their psychiatric facilities are in one building. I am not sure what to make of top tier. I am sure that some think that Duke is a better place to train. When I look at the resident biographies, many have been to Harvard, UPenn, Princeton, etc. At Mayo, I see people from everywhere and each class may have a D.O. or two. I don't think that this is because they don't receive as great an applicant pool but rather that they are looking beyond the degree and towards the person. They do identify hard work and love for patients, but the name of your institution matters less when applying. Just work hard, love patients, and opportunities will open up. I am from a really small school that doesn't have a name. I interviewed at Yale and Johns Hopkins, Duke and Columbia, UPenn and NYU. I had a great variety. The only research I did was in college. But, I had great boards and grades. I took on community and leadership activities. They saw those things more than they saw the name of my school. While it is and M.D. school, I don't think that is what mattered. Working hard also gets you great letters of recommendation. Hope this helps, and if anyone has any points on Mayo versus Duke, please let me know!!

 

[MBK2003]

Regarding the tier of where you train, I agree with the general consensus above that hard-working, interested residents will benefit from exposure to the "leaders" in the field. That's not to say that individual middle tier programs don't have their areas of strength based upon having 1-2 "shining stars." My experience is that if you have in mind a certain city you want to work in, there are +'s and -'s to training in that city - getting contacts, being a known entity helps with referrals whereas learning in different systems of care and seeing what may work better elsewhere can help in you are someone who wants to go into administration or direct an inpatient unit.

As far as Duke vs. Mayo - seems to me the training is similar, what you are really comparing is lifestyle/environment outside the hospital, which is not an insignificant decision.

MBK2003

 

[detroitdoc]

I really need help!!!

Cannot decide between Henry Ford (community program) and University of Michigan...speaking of tiers.

PLEASE HELP

Regarding the tier of where you train, I agree with the general consensus above that hard-working, interested residents will benefit from exposure to the "leaders" in the field. That's not to say that individual middle tier programs don't have their areas of strength based upon having 1-2 "shining stars." My experience is that if you have in mind a certain city you want to work in, there are +'s and -'s to training in that city - getting contacts, being a known entity helps with referrals whereas learning in different systems of care and seeing what may work better elsewhere can help in you are someone who wants to go into administration or direct an inpatient unit.

As far as Duke vs. Mayo - seems to me the training is similar, what you are really comparing is lifestyle/environment outside the hospital, which is not an insignificant decision.

MBK2003