Which audition rotation/ residency programs should I look into?

[MehDO]

Long time lurker here.

I am now a 3rd year DO student living in NYC. I need to find audition rotations soon. For residency, I plan to either stay in NY/ NJ, move to big cities in TX or the West Coast (i don't think I can survive in rural places).

My USMLE step 1 is in the low 240's, Comlex in the low 590's. I've had 1-2 publications and 1 poster presentation, although those were more public health-related and not PM&R. I've got a mixed bag of P's and HP's, and sadly no honors. I did a PM&R elective in the beginning of 3rd year, although I was able to obtain a strong LOR during that rotation, eventually I only got a pass from another attending.

Given my situation, which programs should do audition rotations in and eventually apply to? Currently I'm thinking about auditioning in NYU, Nassau, Kingsbrook Jewish, and Mt Sinai. Any suggestions? Do I have a shot at top-tier programs like Columbia?

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[colourmebadd]

Mt Sinai, Einstein or Columbia Cornell.

 

[Life316]

I think a lot places are just first come first serve.

 

[DOctorJay]

Kessler

 

[j4pac]

Long time lurker here.

I am now a 3rd year DO student living in NYC. I need to find audition rotations soon. For residency, I plan to either stay in NY/ NJ, move to big cities in TX or the West Coast (i don't think I can survive in rural places).

My USMLE step 1 is in the low 240's, Comlex in the low 590's. I've had 1-2 publications and 1 poster presentation, although those were more public health-related and not PM&R. I've got a mixed bag of P's and HP's, and sadly no honors. I did a PM&R elective in the beginning of 3rd year, although I was able to obtain a strong LOR during that rotation, eventually I only got a pass from another attending.

Given my situation, which programs should do audition rotations in and eventually apply to? Currently I'm thinking about auditioning in NYU, Nassau, Kingsbrook Jewish, and Mt Sinai. Any suggestions? Do I have a shot at top-tier programs like Columbia?

The good thing is that you are going to be hard pressed to find many rural environments for PM&R residency. I am curious why you are only considering NY, TX, or CA. There are tons of large cities in between...many of which have stellar PM&R residencies. TX in general has pretty strong programs on the whole...but have you ever been to TX? Not a whole lot of natural beauty and the towns are very spread out. I would think that they would fit your definition of rural. The programs in NYC don't have great reputations...and a handful considered malignant. No question that I would go to Kessler over any of the NYC programs. CA also happens to be incredibly CA-centric and not always the most DO friendly.

Your stats should be competitive to get about a 25-35% return on your applications if you apply broadly enough. Being that you are a DO and you need 12-13 interviews to have a 90% match...I would apply to 45-55 programs. Doing the math...it would be wise to broaden your search past CA, NYC, and TX.

In regards to your question...I would audition at 1) Keesler 2) Baylor COM 3) UTSW Dallas 4) Columbia/Cornell 5) LA VA 6) Stanford

 

[MehDO]

Thanks for the responses so far, is there any information as to which programs prefer to interview students who done audition rotations there?

a handful considered malignant

which ones??

 

[j4pac]

Thanks for the responses so far, is there any information as to which programs prefer to interview students who done audition rotations there?

which ones??

It's not my place to say because it is based on reviews on the trail...and since I didn't interview/audition at any of the programs I can't confirm or deny it. Do your own research. If you interview at a program that only allows you to have interaction with a few select residents...consider that as a red flag unless you have a strong reason to believe otherwise.

On the trail I came across two applicants with less than 5 interview invites...one was at Mayo and the other was a Baylor/UTH. They at least believed it was due to their audition rotation.

I am pretty sure that many programs would be willing to give you an invite if you audition and do well.

 

[colourmebadd]

Just be aware that if you audition somewhere and request a letter from there, programs may interpret that as your being more interested in that program/region than others. That's why I suggested programs in the NYC area where you are now since audition rotations are expensive and if you could live in the same apt and just have a longer commute (pro/con per your personal preference) then I don't think anyone is going to fault you (i.e. some may interpret it as you staying in the area, not trying to buy an interview invite). Moreover, if you're a DO applicant without a 'home' PM&R program, then an audition rotation for you is more about affirming your choice in PM&R than showing selected interest in that program (although it will always be seen in that light, unless you hate the program).

Also look at the set up of audition rotations. A good number will just have you rotate through a smattering of clinics and inpt services, where it's difficult to get a good idea of the program -- although you'll me a ton of residents and attendings, but not as in depth. Ideally something like a two-week inpt service with two weeks of rotating thru clinics would be ideal, where you could then get a LOR from the inpt attending.

As for how much auditions help to get interviews, it depends on how personable you are. You need to show up (literally and figuratively) every day on an audition -- every day is like an interview day.

 

[gamrag]

You need to apply to that many programs with a step one over 240? Charting outcomes for 2014 showed a 100% match rate for people over 241 on step 1. Maybe I read the chart wrong, but is PM&R getting that competitive?

 

[j4pac]

You need to apply to that many programs with a step one over 240? Charting outcomes for 2014 showed a 100% match rate for people over 241 on step 1. Maybe I read the chart wrong, but is PM&R getting that competitive?

There are 5 CA programs, 10 NYC programs, and 6 TX programs. I think applying to 21 programs would be foolish.

There is a 100% match rate for "US Seniors" with a USMLE 1 > 240. The OP is a DO, meaning that he is an "Independent Applicant". There is a 79% match rate for "Independent Applicants" with a USMLE > 240. And note that the numbers say nothing about the number of applications and invites by those individuals matched. I am willing to bet that the OP will match as long as he applies broadly enough and doesn't completely screw up interviewing.

Charting outcomes has "Independent applicants" needing 13 ranked programs to have a 90% probability of matching. I believe that 12 is fine for DOs (13 is a necessity for FMGs). It is very much a numbers game right now in PM&R. There are many programs in which he will not be offered an interview simply because of the numbers. In order to combat that you have to apply to more programs. I believe that good applicants still only get about a 35% return on their initial investment. So that would put him at 34 programs. Just because I would rather get too many than too few interviews...I would probably increase that to at least 38.

If he was an MD...I would recommend apply to at least 35 with his stats.

Is PM&R becoming competitive? Yes. Not so much because of high scores (USMLE, pubs, etc)...but more by the volume of applicants.

 

[gamrag]

Fair enough, I didn't really know how to read all the numbers. Still the OP's numbers put him way out at the end of the bell curve. Only 3 people failed to match out of everyone with scores like that. It's not really reliable to make accurate predictions. I don't know anything about the DO board exam, but from talking to residents, those scores should be good enough to get into a top residency if everything else was strong. I know plenty of people would die to have step 1 scores in the 240+.

 

[PLR_Rehab/Spine]

So the stats clump FMGs and DOs in the same category but as a DO myself I can say that there isnt that much discrimination against us in the field (except maybe Cali) from what I have seen during this application cycle. FMGs are much more discriminated against and most programs I have looked at/applied to/rotated at/ and interviewed with had some DOs on their roster. I think FMGs still struggle as in most fields and this in PM&R is alot more than DOs.

In fact most program directors like the osteopathic background with our focus on structure and function and anatomy with OMT. Fits right in to PM&R.

Also stats and all are good to look at but its important to remember that it is still a small pool of the total number of applicants that allowed their stats to be used for this data compilation. It would be interesting to see if they separated DOs and FMGs instead of clumping them together.

 

[RangerBob]

Kessler

+1. It's the best program in NY.

At least that's the joke/saying I've always heard, and you have to go up to Boston to find the other program on the East Coast people say is a top program.

But really, with those good board scores you should do away rotations at programs you are competitive at. Think Kessler, RIC, Spaulding, University of Washington, University of Michigan, Baylor, Mayo.

Yes Mayo is rural--but it's one of the best programs out there (arguably the best for MSK/outpatient PM&R). So you should really try to get over the rural thing and go to the best program you can go to--you'll make friends and you'll be happy. And Minneapolis is only an hour away and one of the nicest (though coldest) big cities. Their residents are extremely happy--there's a reason for that. If it's a deal-breaker it's a deal-breaker, but the only reason I limited myself geographically was based on if my wife was willing to live in a specific area, and I gave more weight to programs near family.

Stanford had a really nice away rotation (the one where you rotate at the VA, SCVMC, and the Stanford clinics--not the one that's only at SCVMC), so does UC Davis. Neither program is in the same tier as the above programs though. But the Davis residents are also insanely happy. And they're both very solid programs.

And most programs (especially small ones like UC Davis) will definitely prefer students that rotated with them--you're more of a known entity. But it just gives you a leg up--you still have to be a good applicant. Remember that at an away rotation a program has an entire month to "interview" you, so keep in mind that doing aways can sometimes hurt people that otherwise would've been considered because they look really good on paper.

 

[MehDO]

Ha! Thanks everyone for thinking highly of my USMLE step 1 score. According to charting outcomes, a large chunk independent applicants took USMLE step 2 also, if I am aiming for those top programs, do any of you think I should take it? Given your responses, I feel that I have a decent chance as it stands, and I would prefer not to because the test is long, expensive and I run the risk of doing poorly.

the only reason I limited myself geographically was based on if my wife was willing to live in a specific area, and I gave more weight to programs near family.

Me too, a large part of why I only want to live in the aforementioned locations is due to family.

 

[journeybyfaith]

Being an IMG(US Citizen) in the current interview season, I thought I'd chime in. I still believe the field looks more at your overall application rather than just scores. My scores were middle of the road, nothing special. I did a total of 3 rotations/auditions where I busted my tail each day to show the type of resident I could be, had research and a publication, and went to the AAPMR conference to show that my interest was legitimate. I ended up getting 15+ invites and will be ranking 11 out of the 13 interviews I went on. Now this may not be the case for everyone but my friends that are also on the trail have been experiencing similar luck when it came to interviews. Im pretty sure there were some places that probably didn't interview me because of the international status, but thats just how the cookie crumbles.

Ultimately, scores, audition rotations, letters of rec, and a legitimate interest in the field will all play a factor into a program's decision to invite you for an interview. The OP has definitely done well with the scores, so now just tidy up the rest of your application and you shouldn't have a problem. Good Luck!

 

[DOctorJay]

Definitely look into Mayo (I'm biased).

 

[j4pac]

Ha! Thanks everyone for thinking highly of my USMLE step 1 score. According to charting outcomes, a large chunk independent applicants took USMLE step 2 also, if I am aiming for those top programs, do any of you think I should take it? Given your responses, I feel that I have a decent chance as it stands, and I would prefer not to because the test is long, expensive and I run the risk of doing poorly.


Me too, a large part of why I only want to live in the aforementioned locations is due to family.

You rocked USMLE 1 and COMLEX 1...so I am willing to bet that you will rock USMLE 2. The match rate is similar for DOs who do USMLE and those who don't. But at the same time...since you are being so selective with your application...you might as well just take the USMLE 2. CA is more MD-centric...so it wouldn't hurt to have your USMLE for those programs.

I still think that you should apply to additional 15-20 programs on top of the NYC, CA, and TX programs. I would throw in some gunner programs like RIC, UPMC, Mayo, Harvard, and UW. Then I would fill out the rest of my selections with the more DO friendly programs as a backup plan. Check out my advice thread for more details.

 

[MehDO]

Thanks everyone for being so helpful!

went to the AAPMR conference to show that my interest was legitimate

How much networking is actually going on at these conferences? I'm definitely not the type to bravely go out there and introduce myself to the attendings, will I benefit from going from a networking point of view?

 

[journeybyfaith]

i

Thanks everyone for being so helpful!

How much networking is actually going on at these conferences? I'm definitely not the type to bravely go out there and introduce myself to the attendings, will I benefit from going from a networking point of view?

Well in my instance, I was able to pick up one more interview at a program which I was highly interested in prior to the start of the application cycle. I also know of other people that were able to do the same. However, you can also take it as a chance to network with programs where you have already received an invite from and introduce yourself prior to the date. That way there is a little bit of familiarity between yourself and some of the residents/faculty prior to the interview.

 

[colourmebadd]

i


Well in my instance, I was able to pick up one more interview at a program which I was highly interested in prior to the start of the application cycle. I also know of other people that were able to do the same. However, you can also take it as a chance to network with programs where you have already received an invite from and introduce yourself prior to the date. That way there is a little bit of familiarity between yourself and some of the residents/faculty prior to the interview.

Or you could just a BAMF boss and get all your interviews on your own merit.

 

[journeybyfaith]

Or you could just a BAMF boss and get all your interviews on your own merit.

Haha same result either way cowboy...

 

[colourmebadd]

...not really. I still have my dignity.

 

[journeybyfaith]

...not really. I still have my dignity.

Whatever works for you buddy. No harm in networking. Getting an offer was an added bonus.

 

[burndtjamb]

"Thanks for the responses so far, is there any information as to which programs prefer to interview students who done audition rotations there?"

Michigan State is biased toward people who did auditions with them. I would say William Beaumont is the same. Doing auditions is a mixed bag. If you are great on rotations, and I don't mean just a great student, but you get along with the doctors, nursing, and support staff, show up on time, present well, write notes, ask good questions, answer tough questions then try and do auditions. Otherwise auditions will hurt. Right now you look great on paper. If I could do it over again, I would apply for rotations with the top programs where I didn't think I had a chance, because as was noted earlier, many programs are a first come first serve. I was surprised by the auditions invites I received. Though, VSAS was a huge pain in my ass.

 

[MehDO]

Thanks for the advice, sounds like I really need to apply more broadly. At the same time, I don't want to sell myself short either. Any other pointers as to whether or not I should take USMLE step 2? I'm still personally against taking it at this point, because I feel that the risk is higher than benefit on my application.

Though, VSAS was a huge pain in my ass

No kidding, I only recently started using it, and I hate how it's set up already.

 

[lejeunesage]

Dude, with your stats, you can apply to 20 programs and be more than fine.

Also, you should be competitive for any program in the country.
If you're looking for big cities, then there are many programs in big cities.
I suspect that your definition of "rural" might be different from most people's.
I don't know that there's very many rural PM&R program.
You might have programs in cities of 50 to 100K people, but I wouldn't call that rural.

 

[sloh]

I'd still play it safe and apply broadly. I have 240+ on usmle step 1, 260+ on usmle step 2 and still applied to 40+ programs. It's hard to know at this point which programs are going to be the best fit for you. I originally was resolute on staying in California during the beginning of the application process but I've changed my mindset about location drastically after interviewing at other programs in the nation.

I did auditions only in California and was still able to receive interviews at most of the top tier programs, so it definitely doesn't preclude you from receiving interviews if you don't do auditions at specific programs.

 

[lejeunesage]

Clearly, you applied to way too many programs. It's a waste of time for most of those programs and a waste of money for you.
I'm not saying people shouldn't apply broadly. I just can't think of a single reason why you'd apply to so many when your step 1 score is 240+

 

[j4pac]

Clearly, you applied to way too many programs. It's a waste of time for most of those programs and a waste of money for you.
I'm not saying people shouldn't apply broadly. I just can't think of a single reason why you'd apply to so many when your step 1 score is 240+

If he is a DO, I could think of one.

 

[sloh]

I'm a DO. The message I wanted to get across was to apply very broadly because from my experience, I only had a very vague sense of the quality of the residency training programs in the beginning of the application cycle and if I had limited myself to 20-30 programs, it's very likely my decision would have been heavily influenced by geographic location. It wasn't until the middle of the interview season that it became more discernible exactly what I was looking for in a program. And although it probably was a waste of money, I was grateful that I applied broadly initially to numerous programs. In the grand scheme of things, applying to an excess of programs is a nominal fee to pay.

 

[lejeunesage]

I'm a DO. The message I wanted to get across was to apply very broadly because from my experience, I only had a very vague sense of the quality of the residency training programs in the beginning of the application cycle and if I had limited myself to 20-30 programs, it's very likely my decision would have been heavily influenced by geographic location. It wasn't until the middle of the interview season that it became more discernible exactly what I was looking for in a program. And although it probably was a waste of money, I was grateful that I applied broadly initially to numerous programs. In the grand scheme of things, applying to an excess of programs is a nominal fee to pay.

Point taken, but basically I read this as an exhortation to think about what you're looking for in a program before you apply. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my assumption is that with those scores you can conservatively expect to receive an interview at about 60% of the places where you apply.
So, if you apply to 20 places, that's 12 places to rank... more than enough, IMO.

And that doesn't account for the fact that you also need to schedule prelim/TY interviews....

 

[gamrag]

On the subject of audition rotations, just wondering people's opinion on how many to do. I currently have 1 pm&r rotation scheduled at the beginning of 4th year at my school and will try to do 1 audition rotation at another program that I'm interested in. So that comes out to 2 total pm&r rotations. People here say either 2 or 3 max rotations. Think the 2 is enough for me and I can try to schedule some other stuff like sports meds or neuro as electives instead of doing another away audition rotation in pm&r? Reason I ask is because if I do another audition, I'd can only do it in November at the earliest, which seems a bit late. Opinions?

 

[NightFury]

So I have a couple thoughts!
1. I agree that with your scores and as long as you also have a well-rounded application that shows your interest in rehab, there's no reason for you to apply to an excessive number of programs unless you just really can't decide beforehand which would be your top 20 or so you want to interview at. Then of the interviews you get just interview at your top 10 or so. I am a DO who was in a similar boat with a 240+ step 1 and 2. I applied to more programs than I originally planned (mid 20s or so I think) because of fear and ended up canceling a lot and withdrawing from several before I even heard back. It didn't really hurt anything but I wouldn't go out of your way to extend your list to 40 programs or something like that. Of course I know each year seems to be getting more competitive, and I matched last year so I guess it could be different by the time you apply.
2. I think auditions in November are still definitely useful if you make a good impression. They won't be ranking their list until Jan-Feb anyways! Plus, rotating at a program gives you an even better idea of whether or not you would actually want to be a resident there.

 

[gamrag]

I guess it's all timing. I rather not have to do an audition in November if I don't need it since I can't get a letter out of it by that point, and it would only be to try to impress that 1 program. If one home and one away rotation in PM&R before I submit my app is enough, then I'm considering not doing an extra away in November. But if you guys think that one away can make a big difference, then I might consider it.

 

[NightFury]

I guess it's all timing. I rather not have to do an audition in November if I don't need it since I can't get a letter out of it by that point, and it would only be to try to impress that 1 program. If one home and one away rotation in PM&R before I submit my app is enough, then I'm considering not doing an extra away in November. But if you guys think that one away can make a big difference, then I might consider it.

Ok yea probably not going to make a big difference then unless you think that program is probably gonna be your number one.

 

[gamrag]

I guess latest rotation you can do and still get a letter out in time is October then? Do all your letters have to be in when you first submit, or you just need 3 in and can add your 4th a little later?

 

[sloh]

You can add letters later after submission

 

[j4pac]

I guess latest rotation you can do and still get a letter out in time is October then? Do all your letters have to be in when you first submit, or you just need 3 in and can add your 4th a little later?

Most program ask for 3 letters. I wouldn't make it more than four unless you have Dr. James Andrews and a bunch of other important people vouching for you. But you do need a PM&R letter...and that is the one that matters significantly more than the rest.

 

[TeaKae]

You rocked USMLE 1 and COMLEX 1...so I am willing to bet that you will rock USMLE 2. The match rate is similar for DOs who do USMLE and those who don't. But at the same time...since you are being so selective with your application...you might as well just take the USMLE 2. CA is more MD-centric...so it wouldn't hurt to have your USMLE for those programs.

I still think that you should apply to additional 15-20 programs on top of the NYC, CA, and TX programs. I would throw in some gunner programs like RIC, UPMC, Mayo, Harvard, and UW. Then I would fill out the rest of my selections with the more DO friendly programs as a backup plan. Check out my advice thread for more details.

In defense of UPMC...we are so not a gunner program! I would definitely recommend a rotation here for anybody going into our field. We have fellowships in every subspecialty and you can rotate through model systems TBI, SCI and a high acuity general rehab unit during an audition rotation...pretty solid exposure. We're pretty good with the outpatient stuff, too.

 

[j4pac]

In defense of UPMC...we are so not a gunner program! I would definitely recommend a rotation here for anybody going into our field. We have fellowships in every subspecialty and you can rotate through model systems TBI, SCI and a high acuity general rehab unit during an audition rotation...pretty solid exposure. We're pretty good with the outpatient stuff, too.

Sorry...I didn't mean it as an insult. I said it as a compliment. Most agree that it belongs with the "top 6". I meant that it is becoming a very competitive program...not that it's filled with "gunners".