Which programs should be shut down?

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moosepatrol77

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Honest attempt at discussion here. Which actual programs need to be reconsidered at this point due to low volume or poor quality? The seems to be a glut of unprepared trainees into a limited job market. Let's call out the places that need some attention. Here's the list of residencies from ERAS:


State
▲
City
▲
▼		Program Name
▲
▼		Accreditation IDStatus
▲
▼
ALBirminghamBrookwood Baptist Health Program3000121017Participating
ALBirminghamUniversity of Alabama Medical Center Program3000131018Participating
ALMobileUniversity of South Alabama Program3000111019Participating
ARLittle RockUniversity of Arkansas for Medical Sciences Program3000421024Participating
AZTucsonUniversity of Arizona College of Medicine-Tucson Program3000321023Participating
CALoma LindaLoma Linda University Health Education Consortium Program3000521028Participating
CALos AngelesCedars-Sinai Medical Center Program3000512030Participating
CALos AngelesUCLA David Geffen School of Medicine/UCLA Medical Center Program3000511034Participating
CALos AngelesUniversity of Southern California/LAC+USC Medical Center Program3000521033Participating
CAOrangeUniversity of California (Irvine) Program3000521407Participating
CASacramentoUniversity of California Davis Health Program3000511025Participating
CASan DiegoUniversity of California (San Diego) Medical Center Program3000521040Participating
CASan FranciscoUniversity of California (San Francisco) Program3000521044Participating
CAStanfordStanford Health Care-Sponsored Stanford University Program3000521046Participating
CATorranceLos Angeles County-Harbor-UCLA Medical Center Program3000511047Participating
COAuroraUniversity of Colorado Program3000721055Participating
COColorado SpringsPenrose-St Francis Health Services Program3000712048Participating
CTDanburyDanbury Hospital Program3000811057Participating
CTHartfordHartford Hospital Program3000811059Participating
CTNew HavenYale-New Haven Medical Center Program3000821062Participating
DCWashingtonGeorge Washington University Program3001031069Participating
DCWashingtonHoward University Program3001021070Not Participating
DCWashingtonMedStar Health/Georgetown University Hospital Program3001011068Participating
FLBrandonHCA Healthcare/USF Morsani College of Medicine GME: Brandon Regional Hospital Program3001100080Participating
FLGainesvilleUniversity of Florida Program3001121073Participating
FLJacksonvilleUniversity of Florida College of Medicine Jacksonville Program3001131074Participating
FLMiamiUniversity of Miami/Jackson Health System Program3001121075Participating
FLMiami BeachMount Sinai Medical Center of Florida Program3001131076Participating
FLOrlandoOrlando Health Program3001112077Participating
FLTampaUniversity of South Florida Morsani Program3001131078Participating
GAAtlantaEmory University School of Medicine Program3001221080Participating
GAAugustaMedical College of Georgia Program3001221082Participating
HIHonoluluUniversity of Hawaii Program3001421085Participating
IAIowa CityUniversity of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program3001821116Participating
ILChicagoMcGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program3001621094Participating
ILChicagoRush University Medical Center Program3001611095Participating
ILChicagoUniversity of Chicago Program3001621097Participating
ILChicagoUniversity of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program3001621098Participating
ILEvanstonUniversity of Chicago (NorthShore) Program3001621412No Longer Accepting applications
ILMaywoodLoyola University Medical Center Program3001621394Participating
INIndianapolisIndiana University School of Medicine Program3001721111Participating
KSKansas CityUniversity of Kansas School of Medicine Program3001921117Participating
KYLexingtonUniversity of Kentucky College of Medicine Program3002021120Participating
KYLouisvilleUniversity of Louisville School of Medicine Program3002021121Participating
LANew OrleansLouisiana State University Program3002121123Participating
LANew OrleansTulane University Program3002121122Participating
LAShreveportLouisiana State University (Shreveport) Program3002131126Participating
MABostonBeth Israel Deaconess Medical Center/Harvard Medical School Program3002431419Participating
MABostonBoston University Medical Center Program3002421139Participating
MABostonBrigham and Women's Hospital Program3002431146Participating
MABostonMassachusetts General Hospital Program3002431143Participating
MABostonTufts Medical Center Program3002421145Participating
MASpringfieldUMMS-Baystate Program3002421413Participating
MAWorcesterUniversity of Massachusetts Program3002421400Participating
MDBaltimoreJohns Hopkins University Program3002311129Participating
MDBaltimoreUniversity of Maryland Program3002331135Participating
MDBethesdaNational Institutes of Health Clinical Center Program3002312015Participating
MIAnn ArborUniversity of Michigan Health System Program3002521158Participating
MIDetroitAscension St John Hospital Program3002512162Participating
MIDetroitDetroit Medical Center/Wayne State University Program3002521165Participating
MIDetroitHenry Ford Hospital/Wayne State University Program3002512160Participating
MIRoyal OakBeaumont Health (Royal Oak) Program3002521173Participating
MNMinneapolisUniversity of Minnesota Program3002631178Participating
MNRochesterMayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science (Rochester) Program3002621179No Longer Accepting applications
MOColumbiaUniversity of Missouri-Columbia Program3002821185Participating
MOKansas CityUniversity of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine Program3002821408Participating
MOSt LouisSt Louis University School of Medicine Program3002821192Participating
MOSt LouisWashington University/B-JH/SLCH Consortium Program3002811193Participating
MSJacksonUniversity of Mississippi Medical Center Program3002721182No Longer Accepting applications
NCChapel HillUniversity of North Carolina Hospitals Program3003611267Participating
NCDurhamDuke University Hospital Program3003621269Participating
NCGreenvilleVidant Medical Center/East Carolina University Program3003621404Participating
NCWinston-SalemWake Forest University School of Medicine Program3003611270Participating
NEOmahaCreighton University School of Medicine (Omaha) Program3003021195Participating
NEOmahaUniversity of Nebraska Medical Center College of Medicine Program3003021197Participating
NHLebanonDartmouth-Hitchcock/Mary Hitchcock Memorial Hospital Program3003221198No Longer Accepting applications
NJLivingstonSt Barnabas Medical Center Program3003321418Participating
NJNew BrunswickRutgers Robert Wood Johnson Medical School Program3003321215Participating
NJNewarkRutgers New Jersey Medical School Program3003321381Participating
NMAlbuquerqueUniversity of New Mexico School of Medicine Program3003421218Participating
NYAlbanyAlbany Medical Center Program3003521219Participating
NYBronxMontefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein College of Medicine Program3003521230Participating
NYBrooklynSUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program3003521260Participating
NYBuffaloUniversity at Buffalo Program3003521224Participating
NYEast MeadowNassau University Medical Center Program3003521225Not Participating
NYLake SuccessZucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell Program3003521245Participating
NYMineolaNYU Winthrop Hospital Program3003512229Participating
NYNew YorkIcahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Program3003521251Participating
NYNew YorkIcahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai/St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program3003521398Participating
NYNew YorkNYU Grossman School of Medicine Program3003521255Participating
NYNew YorkNew York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus) Program3003511237Participating
NYNew YorkNew York Presbyterian Hospital (Cornell Campus) Program3003511253Participating
NYNew YorkZucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell at Lenox Hill Hospital Program3003511243Participating
NYRochesterUniversity of Rochester Program3003521263Participating
NYStaten IslandZucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell at Staten Island University Hospital Program3003500421Participating
NYStony BrookStony Brook Medicine/University Hospital Program3003521396Participating
NYSyracuseSUNY Upstate Medical University Program3003521265Participating
NYValhallaWestchester Medical Center Program3003511266Participating
OHAkronSumma Health System/NEOMED Program3003811272Participating
OHCincinnatiUniversity of Cincinnati Medical Center/College of Medicine Program3003821276Participating
OHClevelandCase Western Reserve University (MetroHealth) Program3003811279Participating
OHClevelandCase Western Reserve University/University Hospitals Cleveland Medical Center Program3003821277Participating
OHClevelandCleveland Clinic Foundation Program3003812278Participating
OHColumbusOhio State University Hospital Program3003821286Participating
OHToledoUniversity of Toledo Program3003811290Participating
OKOklahoma CityUniversity of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center Program3003921295Participating
ORPortlandOregon Health & Science University Program3004011302Participating
PADanvilleGeisinger Health System Program3004100398Participating
PAHersheyPenn State Milton S Hershey Medical Center Program3004111308Participating
PAPhiladelphiaPennsylvania Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania Health System Program3004111318Participating
PAPhiladelphiaSidney Kimmel Medical College at Thomas Jefferson University/TJUH Program3004111322Participating
PAPhiladelphiaTemple University Hospital Program3004111321Participating
PAPhiladelphiaUniversity of Pennsylvania Health System Program3004121314Participating
PAPittsburghAllegheny Health Network Medical Education Consortium (AGH) Program3004112323Participating
PAPittsburghUPMC Medical Education Program3004121324Participating
PRSan JuanUniversity of Puerto Rico Program3004221385Participating
RIProvidenceBrown University Program3004321414Participating
SCCharlestonMedical University of South Carolina Program3004521332Participating
SDSioux FallsUniversity of South Dakota Program3004621333Participating
TNJohnson CityEast Tennessee State University Program3004721399Participating
TNKnoxvilleUniversity of Tennessee Medical Center at Knoxville Program3004711335Participating
TNMemphisUniversity of Tennessee Program3004712336Participating
TNNashvilleVanderbilt University Medical Center Program3004721341Participating
TXDallasBaylor University Medical Center Program3004812343Participating
TXDallasUniversity of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Program3004811345Participating
TXGalvestonUniversity of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals Program3004811349Participating
TXHoustonBaylor College of Medicine Program3004831350Participating
TXHoustonMethodist Hospital (Houston) Program3004823420Participating
TXHoustonUniversity of Texas Health Science Center at Houston Program3004811352Participating
TXLubbockTexas Tech University (Lubbock) Program3004831415Not Participating
TXSan AntonioUniversity of Texas Health Science Center San Antonio Joe and Teresa Lozano Long School of Medicine Program3004821356Participating
TXTempleTexas A&M College of Medicine-Scott and White Medical Center (Temple) Program3004812357Participating
UTSalt Lake CityUniversity of Utah Health Program3004921360Participating
VACharlottesvilleUniversity of Virginia Medical Center Program3005111362Participating
VARichmondVirginia Commonwealth University Health System Program3005111366Participating
VTBurlingtonUniversity of Vermont Medical Center Program3005011361Participating
WASeattleUniversity of Washington Program3005421367Participating
WIMadisonUniversity of Wisconsin Hospitals and Clinics Program3005631376No Longer Accepting applications
WIMilwaukeeMedical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals Program3005621377No Longer Accepting applications
WVMorgantownWest Virginia University Program
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A great place to start is to look at first time board pass rates. Those programs that consistently have residents who fail should be closed. A good benchmark would be to look closely at CP because the weak programs really have weak CP training as well, as in CP rotations are a mini vacation.

Low board passage rates=weak residents that were weak applicants to begin with or weak training programs or a combination of both.

i know of a program where you did nothing for blood bank. Just sat around and read. That may sound like a good thing to some but if you had to do blood bank in a community hospital you’d be clueless.
 
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What surgical specimen volume would you make the cut-off? At least 20K?
 
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All?
 
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moosepatrol77 said:
What surgical specimen volume would you make the cut-off? At least 20K?
Click to expand...

Howard University and Brookwood Baptist would be a start lol. Howard’s volume is like 10,000 or less...abysmally low.

The thing with pathology is that you can only have so many pathologists in a group, practice or hospital. It’s not like primary care where you can have multiple practitioners within a few blocks. Every year there are new graduates being pumped out into the job market and if no ones retiring then then there are no openings. The bowl starts to overfill and those outside the bowl who don’t get jobs go on to another fellowship. Pathologists can work for a long time if they want to. It’s not that labor intensive.

Pathologists are retiring however. One in one group and then another in two years. I don’t think these groups will have trouble finding anyone though to fill the spot.
 
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Which programs can survive without Federal subsidies or attenuated subsidies? If the department is run well, has decent billing practices, and really uses residents appropriately ( not abusive but realistic work for salary balance) then it should still be “profitable” or in the black. Right now path seems to be part of a slush fund.. kept in perpetual half-assedness on the gubements teet. Time to reel it in peeps before we hit the wall.
 
I'd start by closing half. I think even the one I graduated from should be closed.
 
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Pathological_Liar said:
Thanos the field. 50% of programs, selected randomly.
Click to expand...
No. Killing off great programs like MGH, Hopkins or Stanford randomly makes no sense and would be terrible for the field.
 
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I
Guest8 said:
No. Killing off great programs like MGH, Hopkins or Stanford randomly makes no sense and would be terrible for the field.
Click to expand...

I think he is being sarcastic but I agree big name programs should remain.
 
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Guest8 said:
No. Killing off great programs like MGH, Hopkins or Stanford randomly makes no sense and would be terrible for the field.
Click to expand...

Been there, done that man, dont put US News and World ranked places on some type of pedestal like they are biblical truths.

There are solid pathology faculty at MANY places and solid residents from random places that are unranked.

I've worked with enough HMS/MGH/BWH/BID trainees to know they have good days and bad days just like everyone else.

Hopkins is weird, every single person I have known who has trained there (mainly in other fields) relates the fact they cried alot during residency. No idea what they are doing in Baltimore, but that to me is odd. Any Hopkins folks on here?? Is there some type of culture of "bad touch" there or something?

Stanford trainees, at least back in the day of dot com glory, just loved money. But when you are in Silicon Valley how can you not love money? Michael Burry is a god.
 
Shut down all programs with less than 50K AP accessions.... real accessions.
 
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All right, let's go down the list then.

ALBirminghamBrookwood Baptist Health Program

doximity.png


"The Brookwood Baptist Health Pathology program is conducted at Princeton Baptist Medical Center and Grandview Medical Center. We offer a four-year program in anatomic and clinical pathology which fulfills the requirements of the American Board of Pathology for combined certification. The two pathology departments process over 17,000 surgical specimens per year from all of the major surgical specialties. The clinical laboratories include advanced methodology and instrumentation and offer a full array of clinical laboratory procedures in the two institutions."




Shut it down?
 
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moosepatrol77 said:
All right, let's go down the list then.

ALBirminghamBrookwood Baptist Health Program

View attachment 294795

"The Brookwood Baptist Health Pathology program is conducted at Princeton Baptist Medical Center and Grandview Medical Center. We offer a four-year program in anatomic and clinical pathology which fulfills the requirements of the American Board of Pathology for combined certification. The two pathology departments process over 17,000 surgical specimens per year from all of the major surgical specialties. The clinical laboratories include advanced methodology and instrumentation and offer a full array of clinical laboratory procedures in the two institutions."




Shut it down?
Click to expand...

Yes. Programs with lower volumes with few residents should be first on the chopping block.
 
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Brookfield Baptist is an EmbarASSment to graduate medical education. BROOKFIELD WE DO NOT NEED YOUR PROGRAM IN OUR FIELD. 17k SPECIMENS SHOULD BE HANDLED BY 2-3 PATHOLOGISTS AND A PA. GET OFF THE GOVERNMENT DOLE AND DO US TAXPAYERS A FAVOR (and pathologists who compete for jobs, specimens, and reimbursement).
 
LADoc00 said:
Hopkins is weird, every single person I have known who has trained there (mainly in other fields) relates the fact they cried alot during residency. No idea what they are doing in Baltimore, but that to me is odd. Any Hopkins folks on here?? Is there some type of culture of "bad touch" there or something?
Click to expand...

Crying is healthy.
 
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Next up, #2 and #3.

UAB
Volume - 45K Source: Fellowship directory
Residents - 30
Fellowships - 11
Pass Rate - 98% (Doximity)

U. of South AL
Volume - 11K Source: Clinical Learning Environment
Residents - 13
Fellowships - 0
Pass Rate - 97% (Doximity)


Which programs would you keep open?
 
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Wait, what! The state of Alabama has a total of 51 pathology residents. That is 12.75 per year. I don't live there but I would be surprised to hear there are 13 jobs opening up every year in that state. Get rid of U South Alabama and Brookfield and cut the UAB number to 6 per year/24 total.
 
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I mean, the best way to do it would be to properly survey everyone and see where their residents are five years out of training. But no one seems to be able to do that, and of course you may also not like the results or be able to analyze them effectively (what makes a "good" job?)
 
moosepatrol77 said:
Next up, #2 and #3.

UAB
Volume - 45K Source: Fellowship directory
Residents - 30
Fellowships - 11
Pass Rate - 98% (Doximity)

U. of South AL
Volume - 11K Source: Clinical Learning Environment
Residents - 13
Fellowships - 0
Pass Rate - 97% (Doximity)


Which programs would you keep open?
Click to expand...

U. of South Alabama, Accession #11,000 with 13 residents... Those figures look totally absurd.

Is there any way to find out of those 13 residents, how many are rotated to AP at any time?

I presume all of them are training in AP/CP.

Even if it was 4 residents on AP at a time (with the other 9 on CP/Autopsy/Forensics), that's still really cushy in terms of grossing (even if they had didn't have a PA)...

Also how many attendings would there be to report that histology volume (#11,000)?

I get the impression that there are more residents than attendings!!!
 
If I remember correctly this guy was a dermatopathologist. Although I agree that you have to hustle, just like every field, not just medicine, being a dermatopathologist in pathology helps your cause. A dermatopathologist, just like now, will do well.

Btw, My dermatologist friend in nyc is doing very well I might add. Not low paid at all. Has her own clinic by the flatiron building doing all sorts of cosmetics and is in Allure magazine. She hustled. Hustling in derm is a very different hustle than pathology. Try hustling in pathology in nyc and tell me how it goes. It will only take you so far because it’s saturated.

there are still good jobs in path that pay very well. You just have to find a group who would be willing to interview you for the job or be able to find out about the job which may be by word of mouth
 
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It's hard to assess "needs" for many of these programs, accession numbers or otherwise--residents aren't signing out cases, they're just grossing, and accession numbers don't correlate with quality or spectrum/variety of cases...

Tell me another medical specialty whereby ALL residents--from PGY1 to PGY4 and even fellows--have ZERO medicolegal responsibility...I don't care about a "hot seat" rotation, I'm talking real accountability that has teeth and consequences. PGY1 medicine interns have more responsibility that most PGY4 path residents.

Which is to say, the work they do is quantifiable only with respect to each department (ie. grossing), and whether or not departments have PAs or how many PAs they have. No other aspect of path training is quantifiable other than meeting minimal board requirements. In other words, path residents don't make departments money in the way every other specialty makes a department money.

The departments that train and the CAP have the ear of the ACGME, but--correct me if I'm wrong--doesn't CMS only fund like 100,000 GME spots? I can't imagine people outside path departments and CAP would be upset about losing path spots and gaining primary care spots...
 
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octopusprime said:
It's hard to assess "needs" for many of these programs, accession numbers or otherwise--residents aren't signing out cases, they're just grossing, and accession numbers don't correlate with quality or spectrum/variety of cases...

Tell me another medical specialty whereby ALL residents--from PGY1 to PGY4 and even fellows--have ZERO medicolegal responsibility...I don't care about a "hot seat" rotation, I'm talking real accountability that has teeth and consequences. PGY1 medicine interns have more responsibility that most PGY4 path residents.

Which is to say, the work they do is quantifiable only with respect to each department (ie. grossing), and whether or not departments have PAs or how many PAs they have. No other aspect of path training is quantifiable other than meeting minimal board requirements. In other words, path residents don't make departments money in the way every other specialty makes a department money.

The departments that train and the CAP have ear of the ACGME, but--correct me if I'm wrong--doesn't CMS only fund like 100,000 GME spots? I can't imagine people outside path departments and CAP would be upset about losing path spots and gaining primary care spots...
Click to expand...

Having been a PGY1 transitional surgical intern and a PGY4 path resident, i can attest to your statement re:responsibility.I don’t know how they solve this but there MUST be an opportunity for true independent s/o. But, I guess this is against the law. It was no problem at all 35-40 yrs ago in the military.


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octopusprime said:
It's hard to assess "needs" for many of these programs, accession numbers or otherwise--residents aren't signing out cases, they're just grossing, and accession numbers don't correlate with quality or spectrum/variety of cases...

Tell me another medical specialty whereby ALL residents--from PGY1 to PGY4 and even fellows--have ZERO medicolegal responsibility...I don't care about a "hot seat" rotation, I'm talking real accountability that has teeth and consequences. PGY1 medicine interns have more responsibility that most PGY4 path residents.

Which is to say, the work they do is quantifiable only with respect to each department (ie. grossing), and whether or not departments have PAs or how many PAs they have. No other aspect of path training is quantifiable other than meeting minimal board requirements. In other words, path residents don't make departments money in the way every other specialty makes a department money.

The departments that train and the CAP have the ear of the ACGME, but--correct me if I'm wrong--doesn't CMS only fund like 100,000 GME spots? I can't imagine people outside path departments and CAP would be upset about losing path spots and gaining primary care spots...
Click to expand...

I wonder if radiology residents get to do independent sign out in training, or does everything also have to be reviewed with an attending too?

Does CAP expect AP residents to have signed out a certain number of cases prior to completing residency?

In Australia, AP registrars (residents) need to have reported / written notes on at least 3000 cases before they attempt their Part II exams in 5th year. I don't think the double/multi-header cases count, unless you made an effort to write a histological description. You record the cases in a logbook (hard copy / digital). IIRC, if you haven't documented that minimum number of cases and provided evidence of it to the College, then you're not allowed to sit your exam, ie you have to defer it until 6th year etc.

They don't specify what percentage of those 3000 cases have to be high complexity cases though. So in theory, somebody could report 2900 tubular adenomas along with 100 Whipple's over the course of 4.5 years, and still meet the 3000 case requirement?!

I can think of ways in which an AP resident can muck up a case badly (eg losing a biopsy, getting tissue from 2 different cases mixed up, trimming off the fat deep to the tumour in a bowel BEFORE submitting the actual tumour sections), but I think from a medico-legal point of view, the consultant still gets blamed...
 
Here's all the residencies with volumes listed and arranged by boards pass rates:


State​
City​
Program Name​
Surgical Volume# ResidentsBoards Pass Rate (Doximity)
AL​
Birmingham​
17k869%
FL​
Jacksonville​
?874%
NY​
Valhalla​
Westchester Medical Center Program​
?1275%
LA​
New Orleans​
?1277%
MO​
Kansas City​
?878%
NY​
Mineola​
50k978%
CA​
Sacramento​
?1679%
MI​
Detroit​
?1279%
GA​
Augusta​
?1480%
NY​
New York​
?2480%
NY​
New York​
Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell at Lenox Hill Hospital Program​
24k882%
CA​
Torrance​
32k1683%
TN​
Johnson City​
?883%
CA​
Loma Linda​
?1684%
NC​
Greenville​
20k1284%
NJ​
Newark​
?1684%
OH​
Toledo​
University of Toledo Program​
?984%
DC​
Washington​
?1685%
NY​
New York​
70k2085%
TN​
Memphis​
?2085%
FL​
Orlando​
55k1086%
MA​
Boston​
20k1486%
NY​
Buffalo​
22k2086%
NY​
Stony Brook​
20k1486%
PA​
Philadelphia​
Pennsylvania Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania Health System Program​
50k1186%
PA​
Philadelphia​
?1686%
PR​
San Juan​
?1186%
TN​
Knoxville​
30k1086%
MA​
Boston​
?3887%
MD​
Baltimore​
?1787%
CA​
Orange​
30k2088%
CT​
Danbury​
40k888%
HI​
Honolulu​
70k1088%
LA​
New Orleans​
?1288%
IL​
Chicago​
?2889%
KY​
Louisville​
40k1289%
MN​
Minneapolis​
?2689%
PA​
Philadelphia​
16k1289%
RI​
Providence​
?1689%
VA​
Richmond​
?2289%
FL​
Miami​
42k2290%
NJ​
Livingston​
?1890%
NJ​
New Brunswick​
25k1090%
OH​
Cleveland​
Case Western Reserve University (MetroHealth) Program​
25k990%
CA​
Stanford​
31k4191%
NY​
Bronx​
?2091%
OH​
Cleveland​
175k3691%
OK​
Oklahoma City​
?1691%
TX​
Houston​
?2891%
TX​
Temple​
60k1291%
WI​
Milwaukee​
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals Program​
?1691%
WV​
Morgantown​
?1291%
MD​
Bethesda​
?992%
MO​
St Louis​
55k4292%
NC​
Winston-Salem​
25k2092%
NE​
Omaha​
10k1192%
NY​
Albany​
?1692%
NY​
Rochester​
72k2192%
AR​
Little Rock​
35k1893%
CO​
Aurora​
23k2693%
IL​
Maywood​
30k1693%
KS​
Kansas City​
38k1893%
MA​
Boston​
?1393%
MI​
Detroit​
?893%
MO​
Columbia​
20k1293%
NY​
Lake Success​
108k1693%
NY​
New York​
41k2393%
PA​
Philadelphia​
?1493%
PA​
Pittsburgh​
Allegheny Health Network Medical Education Consortium (AGH) Program​
42k1493%
PA​
Pittsburgh​
110k3393%
TX​
Galveston​
20k2593%
AZ​
Tucson​
?1694%
CA​
San Francisco​
?3894%
FL​
Miami Beach​
?894%
KY​
Lexington​
40k1694%
MA​
Worcester​
65k1694%
MI​
Ann Arbor​
University of Michigan Health System Program​
80k2894%
MI​
Royal Oak​
?1294%
NM​
Albuquerque​
19K1694%
NY​
New York​
38k3094%
NY​
New York​
50k2594%
SD​
Sioux Falls​
50k1094%
TX​
Dallas​
47k3894%
FL​
Tampa​
21k1895%
GA​
Atlanta​
50k4095%
IL​
Chicago​
40k1695%
NY​
Brooklyn​
15k2495%
NY​
Syracuse​
15k2495%
OH​
Columbus​
75k1695%
UT​
Salt Lake City​
?2095%
VA​
Charlottesville​
?2095%
CA​
Los Angeles​
58k2096%
MA​
Boston​
70k3896%
MA​
Springfield​
50k1696%
NE​
Omaha​
?1396%
OH​
Cleveland​
35k2496%
SC​
Charleston​
30k2296%
TX​
Houston​
70k3196%
TX​
Houston​
32k2096%
AL​
Mobile​
11k1397%
DC​
Washington​
?1597%
FL​
Gainesville​
?1797%
IL​
Chicago​
43k2697%
IL​
Chicago​
32k2397%
NC​
Chapel Hill​
37k1797%
NH​
Lebanon​
Dartmouth-Hitchcock/Mary Hitchcock Memorial Hospital Program​
?1497%
OH​
Cincinnati​
14k1297%
PA​
Hershey​
42k1697%
VT​
Burlington​
40k1697%
AL​
Birmingham​
45k3098%
CA​
San Diego​
31k1998%
IA​
Iowa City​
45k2098%
IN​
Indianapolis​
70k2098%
MN​
Rochester​
Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science (Rochester) Program​
250k2898%
TN​
Nashville​
45k2598%
TX​
Dallas​
100k1898%
WA​
Seattle​
?2798%
WI​
Madison​
University of Wisconsin Hospitals and Clinics Program​
43k2098%
MD​
Baltimore​
?3599%
CA​
Los Angeles​
?16100%
CA​
Los Angeles​
?22100%
CO​
Colorado Springs​
?8100%
CT​
Hartford​
?12100%
CT​
New Haven​
?32100%
DC​
Washington​
Howard University Program​
?8100%
MA​
Boston​
?32100%
MI​
Detroit​
180k16100%
MO​
St Louis​
?16100%
MS​
Jackson​
University of Mississippi Medical Center Program​
22k12100%
NC​
Durham​
50k24100%
OH​
Akron​
?8100%
OR​
Portland​
22k12100%
TX​
San Antonio​
24k16100%
FL​
Brandon​
HCA Healthcare/USF Morsani College of Medicine GME: Brandon Regional Hospital Program​
?8?
IL​
Evanston​
University of Chicago (NorthShore) Program​
?12?
LA​
Shreveport​
?12?
NY​
East Meadow​
Nassau University Medical Center Program​
???
NY​
Staten Island​
Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell at Staten Island University Hospital Program​
?10?
PA​
Danville​
80k12?
TX​
Lubbock​
Texas Tech University (Lubbock) Program​
21k??
 
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Chop off programs with less than 80% board pass rate. That’s a whopping 85 residents there. 85 less pathologists looking for jobs.

Academics like Dr Karchner are clueless. The older you are and the longer you are in academics the more clueless you become. You are out of touch with the job market living in the ivory tower so damn long.
 
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Unty said:
Chop off programs with less than 80% board pass rate. That’s a whopping 85 residents there. 85 less pathologists looking for jobs.

Academics like Dr Karchner are clueless. The older you are and the longer you are in academics the more clueless you become. You are out of touch with the job market living in the ivory tower so damn long.
Click to expand...

How do they create those fake/inaccurate studies stating the need for more pathology residents?

Has CAP actually surveyed all the AP graduates re: job outcomes within 1-2 years of completing residency?

I imagine introducing a minimum number of signed-out cases during residency would also help weed out the labs where residents just gross all day.
 
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moosepatrol77 said:
Here's all the residencies with volumes listed and arranged by boards pass rates:
Click to expand...

I tried but did not know how to find this information in Doximity. Where did you find? Thanks!

Some surprises: UC Davis and Tulane are very good medical schools and their board passing rates are so low. Anyone know why?
 
weimingzhe said:
I tried but did not know how to find this information in Doximity. Where did you find? Thanks!

Some surprises: UC Davis and Tulane are very good medical schools and their board passing rates are so low. Anyone know why?
Click to expand...

I also believe University of Cincinnati Medical Center/College of Medicine Program and University of New Mexico School of Medicine Program are decent university programs but their volumes are surprisingly small.
 
Some programs have multiple rotations sites for surg path, but only the volume for the main hospital is listed. So the true volumes, while still not immense in total, may not be as low as you think and may actually be sufficient per resident.

I'm surprised some of these programs in that list even exist. I never quite know how to reconcile the pathologist shortage data with my experience in private practice recruitment, where we routinely get 60+ applications from qualified applicants (qualified on paper at least) per job notice.
 
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potato51 said:
Some programs have multiple rotations sites for surg path, but only the volume for the main hospital is listed. So the true volumes, while still not immense in total, may not be as low as you think and may actually be sufficient per resident.

I'm surprised some of these programs in that list even exist. I never quite know how to reconcile the pathologist shortage data with my experience in private practice recruitment, where we routinely get 60+ applications from qualified applicants (qualified on paper at least) per job notice.
Click to expand...

Wow, 60 applications? Are you for real?

For what fellowship or just gen pathology AP/CP? Desirable city?

Yeah this has been what I’ve been wondering about and have heard about. Pathoutlines putting out comments from employers who mentioned they received a lot of responses from job ads.

Although there are jobs across the country, you will be competing with others for jobs even if you are not geographically restricted.

Trying to get a job that is advertised online may be difficult then even if you are willing to move.

Thanks this bit of information is valuable.
 
Last edited:
MetroPath said:
Wow, 60 applications? Are you for real?

For what fellowship or just gen pathology AP/CP? Desirable city?

Yeah this has been what I’ve been wondering about and have heard about. Pathoutlines putting out comments from employers who mentioned they received a lot of responses from job ads.

Although there are jobs across the country, you will be competing with others for jobs even if you are not geographically restricted.

Trying to get a job that is advertised online may be difficult then even if you are willing to move.

Thanks this bit of information is valuable.
Click to expand...

It didn't seem to matter what specialty (heme, surg path, derm); we typically received a very high number of applications. This was because we advertised on Path Outlines which is probably the most visible job board. And it was in a well-known city, probably not the most desirable but definitely a convenient location. When I got my job there were nearly 80 applications for it.

I will say though - and I've mentioned this before - that despite the dozens of applicants who were technically qualified, it was still rather easy to narrow the list down to a handful of top tier candidates. Top tier meaning solid training program (not necessarily brand name), no red flags, respectable references, good job/training experiences, and a CV/personal statement that wasn't a mess to wade through and reflected a degree of professionalism. Not the highest bar to meet, but even that threshold weeded out most of our candidates.
 
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potato51 said:
It didn't seem to matter what specialty (heme, surg path, derm); we typically received a very high number of applications. This was because we advertised on Path Outlines which is probably the most visible job board. And it was in a well-known city, probably not the most desirable but definitely a convenient location. When I got my job there were nearly 80 applications for it.

I will say though - and I've mentioned this before - that despite the dozens of applicants who were technically qualified, it was still rather easy to narrow the list down to a handful of top tier candidates. Top tier meaning solid training program (not necessarily brand name), no red flags, respectable references, good job/training experiences, and a CV/personal statement that wasn't a mess to wade through and reflected a degree of professionalism. Not the highest bar to meet, but even that threshold weeded out most of our candidates.
Click to expand...

This should be a sticky on this forum. 60 applicants for a job ad. Does primary care get 60 applicants for a job?

this is important to know for medical students.
What are examples of red flags you saw? What do you mean by respectable references? What examples of CVs have you seen that did not reflect a degree of professionalism? What do you mean by good training experiences? As in good programs? This information can shed light on the type of weak applicants\graduates that employers are seeing.

When people say that they only see a handful of good applicants that suggests one thing. Weak applicants getting into pathology, weak training programs or a combination of both. Weak applicants can only be due to one thing....Too many programs training weak candidates who flood the job market looking for jobs.

I wish academics like Karchner And Hoda could read this and add it to their next job market publication.
 
Last edited:
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potato51 said:
It didn't seem to matter what specialty (heme, surg path, derm); we typically received a very high number of applications. This was because we advertised on Path Outlines which is probably the most visible job board. And it was in a well-known city, probably not the most desirable but definitely a convenient location. When I got my job there were nearly 80 applications for it.

I will say though - and I've mentioned this before - that despite the dozens of applicants who were technically qualified, it was still rather easy to narrow the list down to a handful of top tier candidates. Top tier meaning solid training program (not necessarily brand name), no red flags, respectable references, good job/training experiences, and a CV/personal statement that wasn't a mess to wade through and reflected a degree of professionalism. Not the highest bar to meet, but even that threshold weeded out most of our candidates.
Click to expand...

What are considered red flags?
 
abc2019 said:
What are considered red flags?
Click to expand...

Here are just a few from when we screen new applicants:

More than two fellowships
Lapses in training
Boards failures
Slide test issues
Personality disorder
 
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abc2019 said:
What are considered red flags?
Click to expand...

Red flags I would also add in:
Poor communication, written or language skills
Fellowship combinations that make no sense
Excessive name-dropping of famous faculty
Unwillingness to cover more than what they hyperspecialized in
Poor or mediocre evaluations (X was a resident here from 2012-2016 is not a useful evaluation).

This might be controversial but I also find many candidates from research heavy programs to be poor diagnosticians. This might be due to the fact they spent more time chart-surfing than learning pathology, but certainly a bias I've developed in the hiring process.
 
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SunBakedTrash said:
Red flags I would also add in:
Poor communication, written or language skills
Fellowship combinations that make no sense
Excessive name-dropping of famous faculty
Unwillingness to cover more than what they hyperspecialized in
Poor or mediocre evaluations (X was a resident here from 2012-2016 is not a useful evaluation).

This might be controversial but I also find many candidates from research heavy programs to be poor diagnosticians. This might be due to the fact they spent more time chart-surfing than learning pathology, but certainly a bias I've developed in the hiring process.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. Agree with the research heavy programs making poor diagnosticians.

yeah also agree with some people who just want to signout GI but want a job at a big hospital based group. I talked with one pathologist who told me one person wanted to signout GI only and she mentioned that it won’t work with their group.

people are so big on GI path and I get it but I think a good general surgical path fellowship is more helpful in the long run if you want to do private practice in a hospital based group.

you have to be comfortable signing out bread and butter Surgical pathology if you want to do private.
 
What are some fellowship combinations that make no sense?
 
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