Which school?

[UBC2014]

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There are a lot of stupid replies in this thread.

 

[asdf123g]

w0t?

 

[UBC2014]

Seriously, TCOM is a top school.

This statement: "low passing step 1 as a USMD and still have a good chance at almost any specialty besides the surgeries or derm. This cannot be said for a DO student. You will still get better quality residency interview invites as a MD compared to a DO.": IS patently stupid.

Do not compare TCOM with other DO schools, the DO I shadowed went to TCOM and did 2 residencies in OMM and in Opthalmology. She was convincing me to really make sure I went for TCOM, since it was in a higher league, and the research I did into it and facts of the institution speak for itself.

Of course without grade replacement and being an international, i had no chance at TCOM haha.

Go to TCOM, do well, and you're laughing.

 

[cabinbuilder]

It is not true that an MD degree will get you higher salary than a DO degree. The salary depends on which specialty and years of experience. For example, The salary is basically the same for both MD and DO orthopedic surgeons with the same years of experience.

MD and DO of the same specialty get paid the same.

 

[paradoctor1]

If you don't really care about initials, I'd say TCOM. Personally, I know the MD would be worth the extra 40k/year for me, but I have a strong preference for allo. I'm sure you have already invested a lot of time and money into becoming a doctor, so I would take money out of the equation and choose the school you really want to go to and would be happy at. If thats the MD, take that. If its TCOM, then take that one

 

[IslandStyle808]

Your assertion is patently ridiculous. The 200k+ OP saves will be significant unless he enters all but the most popular and high competition fields, and even those are possible if OP ends up being elite (which they would pretty much have to be, anyway). The osteopathic pathway offers all competitive residencies except for one: Rad-onc. If you're going for Rad-onc, definitely go for the MD school. I'd similarly say that for Uro, ENT, Plastics, Ortho, Derm, it's comparatively harder for a DO to gain entrance than a USMD, though certainly possible (mostly through often not-as-high-quality AOA residencies). So if those fields are those that specifically appeal to the OP, and that only makes up about what, 5% of the match (?), then the MD school is likely the better option.

But in this case, the much better option for 90-95% of students is going to be the DO school.

This is one of the few times where I would say cost is definitely a factor. I would put my money down for TCOM in this instance. However, don't think for a second cliquesh's post is totally ridiculous. Your statement doesn't even take into account the amount of positions and the quality of those positions. Neurosurgery has had 16 spots on the AOA side offered while there are 206 spots on the ACGME side (2014 data of AOA and ACGME matches). The ACGME has 13 times as many spots for neurosurgery. Derm residencies on the AOA side don't have the same quality as those on the ACGME side. Quality of training is also important in terms of how good of a doctor you will become.

I am not agreeing with cliquish on going with the MD school, but having access to the best opportunities is important to consider.

 

[DocWinter]

I'm noticing a trend here...premeds offering up their opinions and students/doctors offering their experience with LOADS OF DEBT and daily life in the clinics/hospitals/schools.

 

[cliquesh]

Your assertion is patently ridiculous. The 200k+ OP saves will be significant unless he enters all but the most popular and high competition fields, and even those are possible if OP ends up being elite (which they would pretty much have to be, anyway). The osteopathic pathway offers all competitive residencies except for one: Rad-onc. If you're going for Rad-onc, definitely go for the MD school. I'd similarly say that for Uro, ENT, Plastics, Ortho, Derm, it's comparatively harder for a DO to gain entrance than a USMD, though certainly possible (mostly through often not-as-high-quality AOA residencies). So if those fields are those that specifically appeal to the OP, and that only makes up about what, 5% of the match (?), then the MD school is likely the better option.

But in this case, the much better option for 90-95% of students is going to be the DO school.

I am just offering my opinion and telling you'll what I would do.

I would consider the extra cost insurance. When you go to medical school, there is a chance you will be below average. A below average MD can still do most things, and will still likely match at a decent university program. The same cannot be said about a below average DO. A below average DO is basically regulated to AOA family/IM/psych. On the other end of the coin, if you're a superstar MD the sky is the limit, but a superstar DO has a glass ceiling, which consists of mostly middle tier programs. For me, the extra money is worth the headache of being a DO. Everyone's situation is different; I am just telling you what I'd do.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm noticing a trend here...premeds offering up their opinions and students/doctors offering their experience with LOADS OF DEBT and daily life in the clinics/hospitals/schools.

Gosh darn pre-meds and their opinions, what do they know, especially the ones that agree with you...

 

[BrooklynBulls]

This is one of the few times where I would say cost is definitely a factor. I would put my money down for TCOM in this instance. However, don't think for a second cliquesh's post is totally ridiculous. Your statement doesn't even take into account the amount of positions and the quality of those positions. Neurosurgery has had 16 spots on the AOA side offered while there are 206 spots on the ACGME side (2014 data of AOA and ACGME matches). The ACGME has 13 times as many spots for neurosurgery. Derm residencies on the AOA side don't have the same quality as those on the ACGME side. Quality of training is also important in terms of how good of a doctor you will become.

I am not agreeing with cliquish on going with the MD school, but having access to the best opportunities is important to consider.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Sure, there's 10% of the Neurosurgery spots, but there's about 15% of the amount of DO students as there are USMD's (and there's IMGs, FMGs, and DO's that still compete for Neurosurgery allo spots, though they are rare to get them). There is still a relative scarcity, but its not as you state it. And yes, AOA residencies sometimes, but not always, are not up to snuff. There's definitely a price to going DO over USMD and I'm not pretending there isn't; which is why I explicity stated that if you want Neurosurg, etc, go MD. Also worth noting is the merger between AOA and ACGME, and in 4 years when this student is applying, the most likely projection is LESS DO bias, not more.

But the part I found totally ridiculous is cliquesh's opinion that they would only go DO if they were going into FM. That just made me laugh. And just FYI, below average DO's can go into a lot more than Psych, FM, and low-tier IM-- because test scores arent as important in the DO world. Clinical performance and dedication are often rated more important by competitive AOA residencies.

 

[asdf123g]

I am just offering my opinion and telling you'll what I would do.

I would consider the extra cost insurance. When you go to medical school, there is a chance you will be below average. A below average MD can still do most things, and will still likely match at a decent university program. The same cannot be said about a below average DO. A below average DO is basically regulated to AOA family/IM/psych. On the other end of the coin, if you're a superstar MD the sky is the limit, but a superstar DO has a glass ceiling, which consists of mostly middle tier programs. For me, the extra money is worth the headache of being a DO. Everyone's situation is different; I am just telling you what I'd do.

iirc..wasn't that you, "unfortunately?" sucks your degree limited you instead of what you proved

 

[TopTomato]

iirc..wasn't that you, "unfortunately?" sucks your degree limited you instead of what you proved

Cliquesh actually killed the USMLE and matched a top anesthesia program from what I can remember

 

[MiaMia14]

I am just offering my opinion and telling you'll what I would do.

I would consider the extra cost insurance. When you go to medical school, there is a chance you will be below average. A below average MD can still do most things, and will still likely match at a decent university program. The same cannot be said about a below average DO. A below average DO is basically regulated to AOA family/IM/psych. On the other end of the coin, if you're a superstar MD the sky is the limit, but a superstar DO has a glass ceiling, which consists of mostly middle tier programs. For me, the extra money is worth the headache of being a DO. Everyone's situation is different; I am just telling you what I'd do.

I am an average/below average DO from a newer DO school and I have not been relegated to AOA FM/IM/Psych. I usually would agree about MD over DO but to make a general statement like this is wrong. Those loans are a huge factor.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Sure, there's 10% of the Neurosurgery spots, but there's about 15% of the amount of DO students as there are USMD's (and there's IMGs, FMGs, and DO's that still compete for Neurosurgery allo spots, though they are rare to get them). There is still a relative scarcity, but its not as you state it. And yes, AOA residencies sometimes, but not always, are not up to snuff. There's definitely a price to going DO over USMD and I'm not pretending there isn't; which is why I explicity stated that if you want Neurosurg, etc, go MD. Also worth noting is the merger between AOA and ACGME, and in 4 years when this student is applying, the most likely projection is LESS DO bias, not more.

But the part I found totally ridiculous is cliquesh's opinion that they would only go DO if they were going into FM. That just made me laugh. And just FYI, below average DO's can go into a lot more than Psych, FM, and low-tier IM-- because test scores arent as important in the DO world. Clinical performance and dedication are often rated more important by competitive AOA residencies.

The family medicine comment cliquesh made was over the top, I agree, but one should not take it literally. He meant it more as an example rather than only.

Actually I took what you stated in the bold into account before my post. There are around 5000 students in osteopathic medical schools in 2010. There were around 42,000 allopathic students in 2010. This means there are about 8 times as many MD students as DO student. Yet there are 13 times as many neurosurgery positions on the ACGME side. If all students were to compete, then your chances are 1.5 greater on the MD side. When one is competing against extremely excellent applicants this advantage is larger than it seems (it is like an internal medicine graduate competing for a gastro fellowship). Even with the DOs and IMG/FMGs that are factored it only slightly changes the rate.

 

[TopTomato]

The family medicine comment cliquesh made was over the top, I agree, but one should not take it literally. He meant it more as an example rather than only.

Actually I took what you stated in the bold into account before my post. There are around 5000 students in osteopathic medical schools in 2010. There were around 42,000 allopathic students in 2010. This means there are about 8 times as many MD students as DO student. Yet there are 13 times as many neurosurgery positions on the ACGME side. If all students were to compete, then your chances are 1.5 greater on the MD side. When one is competing against extremely excellent applicants this advantage is larger than it seems (it is like an internal medicine graduate competing for a gastro fellowship). Even with the DOs and IMG/FMGs that are factored it only slightly changes the rate.

Yeah but that's the point we're making, if the OP's heart desires NS or something like derm their best bet is by far go MD. But if they're not considered something ultra competitive the DO route is highly advisable given the amount of loans you will be paying back in the future. Like somebody stated before 152k comes out to maybe 300k with interest. Loans do matter. 300k can be a very nice house.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yeah but that's the point we're making, if the OP's heart desires NS or something like derm their best bet is by far go MD. But if they're not considered something ultra competitive the DO route is highly advisable given the amount of loans you will be paying back in the future. Like somebody stated before 152k comes out to maybe 300k with interest. Loans do matter. 300k can be a very nice house.

Of course, just check my first post on this thread. I am actually in agreement with you. However, to make it seem like your chances are about as good matching into a competitive residency either route is not true.

EDIT MADE

 

[TopTomato]

Of course, just check my first post on this thread. I am actually in agreement with you. However, to make it seem like your chances are about as good matching either route is not true.

There's no question about that and I do agree with you. If you go to a DO school and want ACGME EM for example you're going to have to work harder than somebody at an MD school. But how much is that hard work worth to you? 300k? Sure i'll bite the bullet.

 

[IslandStyle808]

There's no question about that and I do agree with you. If you go to a DO school and want ACGME EM for example you're going to have to work harder than somebody at an MD school. But how much is that hard work worth to you? 300k? Sure i'll bite the bullet.

Yeah 300k is a tough pill to swallow. I would hands down go to TCOM.

 

[TXpremed904]

Out of curiosity, does one need to match to a competitive IM residency in order to enter a cardio/gastro/renal (etc) fellowship? Or as long as you enter an average IM residency can you enter one of those fellowships?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Out of curiosity, does one need to match to a competitive IM residency in order to enter a cardio/gastro/renal (etc) fellowship? Or as long as you enter an average IM residency can you enter one of those fellowships?

Probably not the best person to answer this, but entering a competitive residency program does make it easier. However, from what residents have stated even people from mid tier programs still match into cardio and gastro. It is best to aim as high as possible though.

 

[cliquesh]

I am an average/below average DO from a newer DO school and I have not been relegated to AOA FM/IM/Psych. I usually would agree about MD over DO but to make a general statement like this is wrong. Those loans are a huge factor.

I was specifically referring to below average students. From what you described, you seem like an average student. Nevertheless, you got 17 obgyn interviews (10 AOA and 7 acgme if I remember correctly) after applying to 70 programs. Additionally, most (all?) of your offers were at community programs. That would not have happen if you were an average USMD. You would have probably gotten invites at most of the programs you applied to if you were an MD.

 

[TopTomato]

I was specifically referring to below average students. From what you described, you seem like an average student. Nevertheless, you got 17 obgyn interviews (10 AOA and 7 acgme if I remember correctly) after applying to 70 programs. Additionally, most (all?) of your offers were at community programs. That would not have happen if you were an average USMD. You would have probably gotten invites at most of the programs you applied to if you were an MD.

That's true, and I know you have more experience than me so i'm only speculating here, but what would have happened if MiaMia14 took the USMLE and did about average on it? My guess is they would've had more interviews and probably at better places.

 

[cliquesh]

That's true, and I know you have more experience than me so i'm only speculating here, but what would have happened if MiaMia14 took the USMLE and did about average on it? My guess is they would've had more interviews and probably at better places.

That's true. But how much better? And how many more interviews? I don't know.


It's not really a big deal, guys. Being a DO is cool. I personally think it's worth paying the extra money not to have to stress about the residency/fellowship progress.

 

[MiaMia14]

I was specifically referring to below average students. From what you described, you seem like an average student. Nevertheless, you got 17 obgyn interviews (10 AOA and 7 acgme if I remember correctly) after applying to 70 programs. Additionally, most (all?) of your offers were at community programs. That would not have happen if you were an average USMD. You would have probably gotten invites at most of the programs you applied to if you were an MD.

Average board scores, bottom 25% of the class. I'm only saying the outlook isn't AS bleak as you make it out to be.

 

[TXpremed904]

@cliquesh @MiaMia14 what is your opinion on this: Does one need to match to a competitive IM residency in order to enter a cardio/gastro/renal (etc) fellowship? Or as long as you match to an average IM residency can you enter one of those fellowships?

 

[cliquesh]

@cliquesh @MiaMia14 what is your opinion on this: Does one need to match to a competitive IM residency in order to enter a cardio/gastro/renal (etc) fellowship? Or as long as you match to an average IM residency can you enter one of those fellowships?

The better the residency you go to the easier it is to get a fellowship. How good of a residency do you need? I'm not sure. Any state university program is probably good enough to give you a decent shot. Don't get me wrong, though. You still can match cardiology from a community program. It's just easier if you go to a well known residency. And it's easier to get into a good residency if you go to a good school.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf shows that DOs have a 66% match rate for cardiology and hem/onc, and a 33% match rate for GI.

There are a lot of AOA cardiology fellowships, but there are not many other AOA IM fellowships.

 

[ZX10R]

Out of curiosity, does one need to match to a competitive IM residency in order to enter a cardio/gastro/renal (etc) fellowship? Or as long as you enter an average IM residency can you enter one of those fellowships?

Fellowships are a tricky thing; if your attending physician is best friends with an attending that does cardio/gastro/renal ect then you are almost guaranteed in. The higher you go up in medicine its more of a "who you know" than "what you know."

 

[kalat]

Easiest decision that you should ever make. TCOM tuition is 17K a year. TCOM is regarded as one of the best DO schools (if not a good school for both MD and DO). A low tuition really frees up a lot of options by itself, and the OP can take his time to do whatever he wants. I think some of the stress of the competitive specialties has to do with people worrying about paying their debt without sacrificing lifestyle. Who knows, maybe he won't like his DO degree and he can take his 68K as a write-off and enroll in an MD school after! He'd still probably end up with less debt than some after all that.

Final answer - unless you have problems with Texas I'd definitely say you're crazy to not go to TCOM.

 

[orangeman25]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

Sigh...

 

[Dreamstoo]

.

 

[radkat101]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

And what makes you an expert on this topic? Seriously, enlighten us. I'd bet that the majority of TCOM's student body consists of students who chose DO over the potential to go MD so they could stay in Texas. Perhaps they are all fools, but their match list says otherwise. Texas is different, and the OP is indeed in a unique situation.

 

[hse]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

So saith the troll who changes his stats from one month to the next

 

[jaguar33]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

I guess he got bored with the "go DO or carib?" thread and decided to give his infinite wisdom here. This great advice comes from a person who is willing to spend a fortune to roll the dice in the islands for more debt than most (if not all) US schools.

 

[DrBunsenHoneydew]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

You cannot believe people on this thread? Your wealth of knowledge must be profound. Thank you for sharing such keen insight.

Premeds are so cute when they're ignorant.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I cannot believe people on this thread are telling OP to choose TCOM over an MD school. That's asinine. Any MD school >>>> any DO school. Yeah tuition is gonna be more expensive but are you kidding me? You'd be a fool to choose DO over MD.

You graduated from asking stupid questions to giving stupid answers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[user3]

You graduated from asking stupid questions to giving stupid answers.


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:troll:

 

[Chansey]

When choosing a school, remember this:

Debt is temporary. Degree is forever.

 

[UBC2014]

When choosing a school, remember this:

Debt is temporary. Degree is forever.

And what is wrong with TCOM's degree?

 

[costales]

There won't be an MD on my tombstone. Yawn.

I'm now convinced that this is the annual TCOM vs. {MD school} troll thread.

 

[TopTomato]

When choosing a school, remember this:

Debt is temporary. Degree is forever.

You do know it's possible to die in debt right? Also what's it like using your MD to get a competitive residency in the afterlife?

 

[AM508]

When choosing a school, remember this:

Debt is temporary. Degree is forever.

You probably should tone the rose-colored glasses down a few shades...At the end of the day, debt is FAR more important than MD vs DO.

 

[Chansey]

And what is wrong with TCOM's degree?

...Did I say there was something wrong with TCOM's degree?

I'm merely providing a counterpoint to the "omg debt" arguments in this thread. OP posted an MD vs DO thread in a DO forum. He's not going to get unbiased answers. I was trying to provide a second opinion.

 

[radkat101]

...Did I say there was something wrong with TCOM's degree?

I'm merely providing a counterpoint to the "omg debt" arguments in this thread. OP posted an MD vs DO thread in a DO forum. He's not going to get unbiased answers. I was trying to provide a second opinion.

Can you be more specific about the counterpoint?

 

[Chansey]

You do know it's possible to die in debt right? Also what's it like using your MD to get a competitive residency in the afterlife?

You probably should tone the rose-colored glasses down a few shades...At the end of the day, debt is FAR more important than MD vs DO.

If doctors were unable to pay off student loan debt, no one would become doctors.

Can you be more specific about the counterpoint?

I think a medical degree is something you shouldn't skimp on. Your MD or DO degree is an investment. It's usually a investment that will pay off in the long run, which is why I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of tuition. This is my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Also... Woah, woah, woah. I didn't say ANYTHING about MD vs DO in my post. I merely said that you can pay off your debt, but you can't change your degree. You guys are the ones assuming I meant MD > DO...

 

[evooo8]

Go to TCOM and work hard to get into the residency you want. Don't rely on MD and just getting by to land you a residency. Unless it is plastics or derm then you might want the help of MD. If you think there is a slight change you would want to go into one of those two, then go with the MD school. If you are fairly certain you won't be pursuing either of those, then go to TCOM and save yourself a lot of money. That is just my take on the situation.

 

[user3]

Go to TCOM and work hard to get into the residency you want. Don't rely on MD and just getting by to land you a residency. Unless it is plastics or derm then you might want the help of MD. If you think there is a slight change you would want to go into one of those two, then go with the MD school. If you are fairly certain you won't be pursuing either of those, then go to TCOM and save yourself a lot of money. That is just my take on the situation.

what if a few years from now, he is sitting on a 205 step 1/215 step 2, and wants to enter a "moderately" competitive specialty like anes? As a DO, he probably has around a 50/50 chance of matching anywhere. As an MD, it is almost certain. On top of this, he would likely receive many more interviews and have many more geographic options for his residency. Is this worth the extra tuition? That is for the OP to decide.

These are two scenarios that could unfold:

Having the extra debt from the MD school and still entering a specialty you would have attained at the cheaper DO school vs.
Having less debt but being unable to enter your desired specialty that would have been attainable had you attended the MD school

In my opinion, the latter is far worse.

 

[noleknight16]

TCOM, especially if you plan on practicing in TX and are okay giving up only a few really selective specialties.

 

[jaguar33]

what if a few years from now, he is sitting on a 205 step 1/215 step 2, and wants to enter a "moderately" competitive specialty like anes? As a DO, he probably has around a 50/50 chance of matching anywhere. As an MD, it is almost certain. On top of this, he would likely receive many more interviews and have many more geographic options for his residency. Is this worth the extra tuition? That is for the OP to decide.

These are two scenarios that could unfold:

Having the extra debt from the MD school and still entering a specialty you would have attained at the cheaper DO school vs.
Having less debt but being unable to enter your desired specialty that would have been attainable had you attended the MD school

In my opinion, the latter is far worse.[/

I would venture to say that the match list at TCOM is so good because the majority of students come in with competitive stats and get a specialty that they desire. Most students at my school who came in with competitive stats are crushing it and will likely have good board scores and land a good residency. Its all on you, but I would be willing to bet that someone who has excelled on the MCAT and in other areas would not let themselves get a 205 on boards. That scenario likely sounds like someone who squeaked into a US school and should be happy with any residency they can get.