which school?

[tufts02]

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i was just wondering what school you guys would choose if you had the choice between tufts, jefferson, drexel, temple, tulane or wake forest. how would you guys rank them according to you preferences?

thanks

 

[shamthis]

While all those you listed are great schools, I believe Wake Forest has the most going for it. Although I never visited, I attended conferences presented by WF researchers and met great WF alums; I can attest firsthand to it's up-and-coming greatness. Plus it's ranked by USNews pretty highly, for what that's worth. (I can't fit the word "great" anywhere else)

Tufts and Tulane seemed pretty on-par, both in admissions requirements and reputation (especially in their respective locales). Tulane holds the torch in clinical opporunities. I was very impressed by the Charity hospitals and the credo that Charity patients don't tolerate med students, they need them. New Orleans, while fun to visit, might be a bt overbearing for four years, and the campus needs a facelift. I appreciated Tulane as an insitution for its classical and traditional charm. Tufts wins the cake for facilities, and being a New-Englander, I prefer the nautical Boston setting to New Orleans. However, the clinical opporunities aren't as bright. Both schools are excellent; both are pricey.

Jefferson is a great school from what I've heard. I've never visited it, but I know plenty of people who turned down big name schools because they were so impressed by JMC. Drexel, or MCP when I visited, is great, too. The facilities are top-notch and the location is pleasant. Otherwise, the school seems pretty unremarkable and is geared towards primary care. Drexel would be a solid choice, but it was not my favorite.

I never visited Temple.

 

[Adcadet]

that's like asking for your favorite color and why. I've only seen Wake Forest, and I wouldn't trust anybody's opinion who hasn't seen the school in question.

a cut and past from a previous response:

some people a while back said that calling got them bumped from the second to first interview pool. And it seems showing interest after interviewing from the first interview pool can be important - nobody from the first interview pool gets rejected - about half (I think) get accepted, and about half get waitlisted (of course, you need to send a letter to be entered onto the waitlist).

I was in the first pool, but got waitlisted. I was really impressed with alot about the school, but it just wasn't right for me or my fiance at this time. If I were single or had young kids, didn't desperately want to do research, and focus on just studying medicine, Wake would have been my dream. Wake is great if you want what seems like a close class, a high-tech environment, the luxury (to some; horrible to others) of doing the vast majority of your rotations in one hospital (which houses the med school), nice facilities, an emphasis is spending time in community clinics, and a safe, smaller city with lots of outdoor space nearby.

As you can tell, I have mixed feelings about not going to Wake. Same thing happened with my undergrad dream school, the University of Chicago. I got in, but decided at the last minute that it just wasn't right for who I was at the time. And I think you have to factor that into your choice of where to go to school. Hence, the rankings go straight out the window when you start interviewing.

OK, this ends my love letter of regret to Wake Forest.

from http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56227&highlight=Wake+Forest

 

[Adcadet]

this might also be useful, but take it with a grain of salt:

www.amsa.org/resource/cardev/medresults.cfm

 

[shamthis]

Sorry adcadet- still, while I never visited Harvard medical school I'd sure as hell go there for its reputation alone.

Whats with this colors analogy? Plus, your cut and past is out of context, dude. Appreciate advice for what it's worth.

 

[MD-2007-Gal]

I've never visited or read much about Wake Forest, so I can't say anything about it.

I'd probably choose Jefferson, and maybe Tulane as a second choice. Jefferson is a great school in a great location. It has a great reputation in the Philadelphia area, and students go for a wide range of residencies. The clinical training is fantastic. They have pretty good housing as well. They seem to really care about the students there as well.

Drexel was nice, but every aspect I can think of about it is second to Jeff, IMO.

Temple: nice school, but still second to Jeff, IMO. It's in a much more boring area (not to mention a bad area). The facilities aren't great. There's no housing. Some of the students I met seemed bitter when anyone mentioned Jefferson or Drexel. Plus, there are threads here that say it may be in trouble.

Tufts didn't impress me. The students I met weren't crazy about the school, and I talked to a bunch who went there because it was the only school to where they were accepted. Nothing justifies its huge price tag either. Also, the fact that a majority of the clinical years have to be done at affiliate hospitals (which happen to be not the greatest) in suburban Boston, so while New England Medical Center is great, you may hardly see it. Plus, their dorm is not nice at all, while it is still expensive.

Tulane can be hit or miss, I think. I agree, Charity is great. The thing is, I don't think people from areas other than the south think of Tulane as being that great a school, which can have an effect when applying for residencies. Also, it's in a really bad area.

 

[shamthis]

Originally posted by MD-2007-Gal
Tufts didn't impress me. The students I met weren't crazy about the school, and I talked to a bunch who went there because it was the only school to where they were accepted.

tact

 

[UCLA2000]

Tulane is a top notch school. When I applied last year I think they were ranked 16 by the gourman report. Last year was their first year in USNEWS, and because they fund their own research they didn't place very well.

I don't know very much about tufts.

Temple and Drexel are a draw. Jeff is last

Temple is a lil more well known, but Drexel has much newer facilities and is probably going to start climbing the rankings in the next few years (now that they've left MCP Hahn).

Originally posted by tufts02
i was just wondering what school you guys would choose if you had the choice between tufts, jefferson, drexel, temple, tulane or wake forest. how would you guys rank them according to you preferences?

thanks

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by shamthis
Sorry adcadet- still, while I never visited Harvard medical school I'd sure as hell go there for its reputation alone.

Whats with this colors analogy? Plus, your cut and past is out of context, dude. Appreciate advice for what it's worth.

What if you interviewed at Harvard and realized that you would be absolutely miserable there? Would you turn down a lesser-known school that you felt very comfortable with? Well, if you'd tolerate misery for the school's name and educational abilities, more power to you.

By the color analogy I must meant that it's such a personal choice (at least to me), that it's hard to give definite answer for the OP. I didn't mean to be negative.

I don't think the cut and paste is out of context - you can clearly see that I'm addressing a slighly different topic in the post. It is clearly a bit off topic, but it's similar enough that I thought the OP might appreciate my comments on Wake.

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by shamthis
tact

Well, at least it's honest. To be honest (as you alluded to above), I wasn't impressed with GW. But no bother - they didn't like me either (was rejected post-interview)! You apparently did like it. Good for you. I don't like green; maybe you do. I hope you're not mistaking honesty and the diversity of opinions on SDN as a sort of cheap shot at schools, or a low blow to those who decide to go there. If I've come off as calous or demeaning, I apologize.

Everybody who's thought much about med school admissions knows that any acceptance to any med school, or even being competitive at any med school says alot about the person.

 

[shamthis]

Well, you have been a little callous lately, which surprises me. I think we both have hidden nehind the shroud of internet immunity and struck low blows for no good reason. I apologize for rubbing you the wrong way.

I like green

 

[chrys42]

Tufts, pm me if you have any other questions about Wake. 🙂

 

[Goya]

It still amazes me that ppl still quote the gourman report (nothing personal against anyone). But that report is like 7 years old, has an iffy premise to begin with, and is quite frankly...unreliable. It's like I should put out a Goya Report where I rank schools on how much food they fed me during the interviews, how pretty the school colors are, and how big their student lounges are. The US news list's value is debatable too but really...does it really matter? Just goto the school you are happy with. Unless you're choosing between the top tier school or Podunk Med school of Barnyard Medicine... the next 4 years will be tough. You might as well like the ppl and the school you go to.

Originally posted by UCLA2000
Tulane is a top notch school. When I applied last year I think they were ranked 16 by the gourman report. Last year was their first year in USNEWS, and because they fund their own research they didn't place very well.

I don't know very much about tufts.

Temple and Drexel are a draw. Jeff is last

Temple is a lil more well known, but Drexel has much newer facilities and is probably going to start climbing the rankings in the next few years (now that they've left MCP Hahn).

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by MD-2007-Gal
Tulane can be hit or miss, I think. I agree, Charity is great. The thing is, I don't think people from areas other than the south think of Tulane as being that great a school, which can have an effect when applying for residencies. Also, it's in a really bad area.

I always have a good laugh when people say that Tulane is in a "really bad area".

 

[johnstoner]

its probably not Temple bad but its supposed to be pretty bad...plus its not like its in the suburbs so you have to realize that tulane is not in a "posh" neighborhood.

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by johnstoner
its probably not Temple bad but its supposed to be pretty bad...plus its not like its in the suburbs so you have to realize that tulane is not in a "posh" neighborhood.

I see what you are saying, but you have to understand that Tulane is not in a bad neighborhood, if anything it's in one of the better areas in New Orleans. Hell, you're one street (Canal Blvd) from the French Quarter. Take it from someone who did their undergrad in New Orleans and has a mother who is from there.
Tulane is not in a bad neighborhood. Now JHU, that's another story.

Back to the question.

1. Wake - great hospital, great area to live if you like a mid-size city and don't like going out much. Curriculum is very good, and the school is continuing its rise in popularity and respect.

2. Tulane - great clinical training as well as opportunities to get other advanced degrees. Great city (I'm biased of course). If you like a laid back atmosphere, great food, great weather (except for the occasional hurricane) and getting the week of Mardi Gras off as well as spring break, this is the place. I do believe they have grades though, and from my former roomate that is a first year there, they lack some diversity.

3. Temple - amazing clinical exposure in Philly's southside. Only problem is you might end up being a patient in the ER if you don't watch your back.

4. Drexel - Jefferson = Push

5. Tufts - Boston = 27 in. snow in one freakin' day (I mean, my God). Don't even talk about the money they make you pay. Women there are very nice and receptive, though. (Hey ladies)

That's my humble and slightly warped take on this at this time.

peace

 

[MD-2007-Gal]

tact

Sorry if I offended anyone. It's just that to me, it was important to see why students decided to go to their particular medical schools. If it's because they didn't have options, they may not like the school, and they may not really want to be there. Also, I wonder why there isn't a larger percentage of students who chose the schools over others. What did the school not offer? The students will be my classmates and colleagues for the next four years. I want them to be glad to be where they are. For the price of medical school tuition, it's worth it to consider this matter.

 

[UCLA2000]

Originally posted by Goya
It still amazes me that ppl still quote the gourman report (nothing personal against anyone). But that report is like 7 years old, has an iffy premise to begin with, and is quite frankly...unreliable.

If people still quote it then maybe it still has some use! Schools don't usually drop 30 places in 7 years (in which case it would still be ranked higher than temple and drexel).

 

[Sunnygirl]

3. Temple - amazing clinical exposure in Philly's southside. Only problem is you might end up being a patient in the ER if you don't watch your back.

lol... but a quick correction -- Temple is in North Philly.

5. Tufts - Boston = 27 in. snow in one freakin' day (I mean, my God).

Lots of the Northeast got a bunch of snow in that storm -- 2 ft of snow all the way from DC to Boston... but yes, Boston is COLD!

 

[lola]

Originally posted by mamie
I see what you are saying, but you have to understand that Tulane is not in a bad neighborhood, if anything it's in one of the better areas in New Orleans.

wait... i'm confused. isn't tulane med school in a not so hot area of new orleans? i think the regular campus is in an ok part, but i heard it is pretty crappy/unsafe around the med school. is this not the case?

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

I would choose Tulane it was my top choice besides my state school. I loved the relaxed atmosphere of the students, and the students seemed to realy like their school. If you go to the amsa website you'll notice they have a high student satisfaction rating www.amsa.org/resource/cardev/medresults.cfm . I have many family members who are phsycians and they would say Tulane has a top notch rep.

Wake is okay, I couldn't see myself living in NC for 4 years. I'm asian and didn't see another asian in the town, except for at the med school. They have good infra structure though, lectures on the web, class rooms wired to internet, lap top givin to first years, and pda givin to third years for rotations.

Temple sounds great, but is on probation right now, because of facilities. There class size was to big for my personal taste too. Oh yah, the area seemed pretty bad.

Jefferson and Tufts I don't know anything about them never been there.

Drexel, wouldn't choose to go there with these other choices.

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by lola
wait... i'm confused. isn't tulane med school in a not so hot area of new orleans? i think the regular campus is in an ok part, but i heard it is pretty crappy/unsafe around the med school. is this not the case?

In my opinion it's not the case. Tulane undergrad, along with Loyola, are off St. Charles, where all the mansions and rich white people live. Tulane Med is in downtown New Orleans (NO) which isn't as bad as people think. Sure things happen, this isn't Stanford. You're in a major city. The same things happen here in Boston too. Compared to other parts of the city however, Tulane Med is in a very decent part. Anyway, nobody lives there. New Orleans is pretty cheap and housing is easy to come buy. All you have to do is jump on I-10 and you'll be at the school in no time.

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by Sunnygirl
lol... but a quick correction -- Temple is in North Philly.



Lots of the Northeast got a bunch of snow in that storm -- 2 ft of snow all the way from DC to Boston... but yes, Boston is COLD!

thanks for the correction.
my bad.

 

[Yogi Bear]

i forgot what year but in the early 90s, jefferson had once been ranked by usnews as #1 primary care medical school.

 

[cg1]

From what I hear, the area has cleaned up a LOT around Temple. They had drug problems in the 90's, but they've done some major social programs/construction/cleaning up. I know a girl who lives on campus (yes, there is "campus housing", but it's just not owned by the school) and she feels fine in the area. And the clinical experience there is supposed to be second to none.

However, I'd put Wake above Temple only because it's on the rise in the rankings....although, I know, rankings aren't everything. 😉

1) Wake
2) Temple
3-4) Tulane & Tufts are a draw
5) Jeff
6) Drexel

 

[chrys42]

I can't speak for the other schools, but I know that Wake is currently a fantastic school that will be getting much better in the coming years. It's an innovative school (1st in the US with the new curriculum; laptops for every student) and the hospital keeps getting renovated all the time. They just revamped part of the ER and added new surgical rooms. Some of them are digital and they look really really cool! I got a chance to tour it when it first opened in October. In addition, the hospital is also currently building a brand new cancer clinic, and there are plans to construct the largest Research Park in the US.

With regards to the issue of somewhat low USMLE 1 scores, they've already started implementing changes in the curriculum. I can state with confidence that it will be even better for the class of 2007. We have a reputation for being somewhat weak in Infectious Disease but they've added a new 2 week block.

I can't defend the size of Winston-Salem. It is small and there isn't that much to do. But it is a nice city and safe with cheap housing.

Hope that helped.

 

[JlazyMD]

I have interviewed at Tufts and Jefferson, so I'll start there...

Tufts- I live in Boston, and it is a nice town, but Expensive, and Tufts is an expensive school. I was impressed with the faculty member I interviewed with, but agree with him when he said that a sizable minority of the students are rather competative, esp. in the clinical years- students are jockeying for competative residencies more here than other schools. Campus is alright, but not cohesive- students mostly live scattered around the city in (as I said) Expensive apartments. On the plus side, the "Preceptor" program where you pair with faculty mentors is great according to the students I met, also they have a very nice computer system, which one student told me was the best thing about the school (not too inspiring, actually...). Match list was actually quite good, especially if you like Boston hospitals.

Jefferson- Of all the schools I interviewed, Jeff impressed me the most. Students really seemed excited to be there, I met one who was accepted at 12 schools, including Hopkins, and chose Jeff (good choice?-maybe- I hear Hopkins students are so competative and not the happiest bunch-then again, it is Hopkins). The campus here is really outstanding, in a great part of town with nice, renovated apartment-style housing and a fully equipped gym. Hoops anyone? The alums are also quite active, and have alumni dinners for students every couple months. For a big school, Jeff really seems to be a close community. Another plus is the clinical years are excellent and well run- new residents are well prepared. My boss is chief of Peds at Mass General in Boston and he told me he likes Jeff residents (not as much as Harvard, Yale or even UMASS residents of course). On the downside, though some students were great, my tour guide was just NOT impressive, also didn't think much of the 'Jefferson Pride' speech one of the admissions officers gave. Also, though its match is somewhat impressive, it is at least 75% PA schools. Lastly, Jeff is the first (and so far only) place to accept me so I have a sweet place in my heart...

Can't say anything new about the others, but my personal list would go:

1) Jefferson
2) Wake Forest
3) Tulane or Tufts - don't know enough about Tulane to decide, it definately has poor name recognition in New England
5) Temple
6) Drexel

 

[nameless]

3) Tulane or Tufts - don't know enough about Tulane to decide, it definately has poor name recognition in New England

I have many family members who are phsycians and they would say Tulane has a top notch rep.

so what's the deal with Tulane then? Is an education from there (med school or residency) only appreciated in certain areas of the country? Any details on why it has poor name recognition in N.E.?

I know when I interviewed at USC and mentioned Tulane, my interviewer seemed to appreciate the value of training at Charity- so is it only deemed top notch in terms of service to indigent populations and dual degree stuff?

As for rating the schools, i wouldn't be very much help b/c i don't know anything about tufts, wake, even jeff. Interviewed at tulane and drexel...a big thing for me is working with the indigent so drexel would be way below tulane and temple.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

If you go by the last gourman rankings tulane is #16. Which I think is pretty good. I personally don't care much about research, and want to be a clinician. So I really don't care about who has more research dollars from NIH, thats why I really don't look at the US news rankings. Some people say if you do clinical rotations at like a LA county, Cook county, Charity, or even a drew, you'll see all kinds of crazy stuff, and pathologies at advanced stages. These places the patients, resident, and attendings would let a student do more. While at the nicer hospitals patients might not let a student even touch them. After having done time in the war zones/front lines, when you do your res in nice middle class hospital things should be a piece of cake. This is just my opinion, I might be just pulling these arguments out of my A$$.

 

[irlandesa]

I go to Tufts for med school and from what I gather its reputation is strongest on the East Coast and particularly in New England. I think that you would not be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you picked Tufts over any of the other schools you mentioned. There are actually a lot of clinical opportunities (Selectives and Primary Care Preceptorship), a semester-long Interviewing course, and 2 semesters of Physical Diagnosis throughout 1st and 2nd year. During 2nd year, pairs of students go to affiliated hospitals once a week. At other schools, many students don't get to work with patients other than "standardized patients." I am very happy with the education I am receiving here and love Boston; however, the cost and the cost of living here are problematic. I would definitely recommend looking into your state school and would not recommend choosing Tufts or any other expensive private school (except maybe HMS or Hopkins) over a state school, but that is just my opinion. I agree that the Tufts dorm is absolute crap, don't ever live there if you want to remain sane.. our lectures halls and curriculum were also redone this year, FYI.

I don't know much about the other schools, but have heard particularly good things about Tulane and Jefferson. If you are interested in practicing in the South, Tulane would probably give you an advantage, and if you are interested in working in Philly or the Mid-Atlantic, Jefferson might give you an edge.

 

[geromine]

I don't know much about the others, but I can tell you something about the tulane.

Look at the match list for tulane and you'll realize that they match into very good residencies across the country. Tuition is pretty steep but I think its offset a great deal by cheap housing and overall cost of living($350 a month uptown near main campus).

Neighborhood around medschool is like downtown area of any other major city. If you don't buy or sell drugs you won't have to worry about safety.

Students, teachers and the administrative staff are super enthused and friendly, unlike some of the other schools that I've had a chance to visit.

Living in major urban center means you'll get a chance to exprience real medicine and that you'll be able to actually make a contribution towards delivery of healthcare WHILE you're in med school.

I spent a few days in New Orleans before my interview and I loved it. In all likelihood I'll be heading over there next year.

 

[CatsAreKillers]

I'd love to go to school in Boston, so Tufts goes at the top. Temple is known for giving fantastic handson experience to the students. I don't know any Jefferson students who seemed really psyched about going to that school, so I put that near the bottom and Drexel doesn't have a great reputation (in addition to their financial problems..I'd put them last).

Tulane would be a blast and non-stop party being in new orleans, but I would get no studying done there!


tufts
temple
tulane
wake
jefferson
drexel

 

[DW]

This thread is amusing. So far we've referred to rankings from a guy who's dead if i'm not mistaken, heard that Temple is in South Philadelphia and MCP is still in "financial troubles" (newsflash, Drexel med was bought by for profit healthcare magnate Tenet several years ago, its in solid financial standing with brand spanking new facilities) 🙄

That said, I'll give my thoughts on the non UPENN Philly schools:

Temple: Great clinical experience supposedly from the population it serves, and thats the big draw to me. Makes a strong commitment to diversity on all levels in pickig a student body. Cant really live "close" to temple, cause its in the ghetto frankly. but the campus is very safe and accesible via public transit. My personal concern with temple is that I'm not particularly fond of its preclinical years. Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, system that basically translates into a letter grade system. Plus, as mentioned on SDN earlier, temple med is on probation for things like lack of study space, inadequate lecture halls, and high student debt, etc. These things dont make Temple a not perfectly viable medical school, and in a post by phllystyl he goes over the things the school is doing to address its probationary status.temple thread

Jefferson: The only "ranked" philly med school outside of Penn, if that means anything to you (doesnt to me really) Thankfully, Jeff moved away from being one of the last dastardly med schools to give numerical grades on transcripts to a honors (top 10 percent), pass, fail system. Best location of all philly schools. Library space better than Temple's. Has a lot of clinical affiliates in PA and NJ, not to be scoffed at. Probably not as intense a clinical curriculum as Temple, but there students do pretty well in residency placement. Lecture halls and such looked like they could use a revamping. Seems to draw a lot of its student base from post bacc programs and agreements with PA/DE, so the class makeup seemed kind of bland. As I've just learned on the first hand, their enormous alumni base has some money to toss around occasionally 😉

Drexel: Was caught in the middle of the AHERF bankruptcy back in 1998. SDN, listen....Drexel med's financial problems are a thing of the past. They've got brand new equipment, wireless internet, overall the facilities are pretty nice due to being managed by Drexel and financed by Tenet. Naturally, after the bankruptcy and threats on accreditation and such, their reputation took a hit, but its a very good school that seems to be on the rise. Several affiliates around the Delaware Valley. Located in East Falls, which is ok, and close to Manayunk, which is a cool area to live. Being able to choose between pbl and lecture based is pretty cool too.

So, my personal rankings at this time would go

1. Jeff (heavily biased by the partial tuition scholarship extended to me 🙂 )
2. Temple: $ nonwithstanding, a dead heat with Jeff
3. Drexel: withdrew, but still a very good school

I honestly dont see a ton differentiating the three schools though. all a matter of personal taste

i will refrain from speculating on school's i didnt interview at 🙂

 

[Wednesday]

Obviously you won't be able to rely on the opinions of your fellow SDNers to make this important decision for you. 😉

I love Jeff but I don't know much about the other schools.

I don't quite understand how post-baccs would make a place bland. If anything, I think Jefferson's committment to accepting a nice number of older, non-traditional students (although we're talking 10 out of 224) is a nice way to make the class a little more interesting. Perhaps I am biased.

For the record, Jefferson gives honors grades to you if you get a 90 percent or above, NOT the top 10% of the class.

It's a great place but I'm sure all of the schools on your list are great. How did YOU feel about them when you visited? That's what's really important.

Good luck.

 

[cg1]

Drexel: Was caught in the middle of the AHERF bankruptcy back in 1998. SDN, listen....Drexel med's financial problems are a thing of the past.

But they still suffer from an image problem. So when students are advising the OP about the schools, the reputation of the school is a factor. That's *one* of the reasons why Drexel is last on so many lists.

 

[DW]

I don't quite understand how post-baccs would make a place bland. If anything, I think Jefferson's committment to accepting a nice number of older, non-traditional students (although we're talking 10 out of 224) is a nice way to make the class a little more interesting. Perhaps I am biased
again, that was just my opinion, not trying to ruffle feathers. I just felt like I met a LOT of people on my interview day that were from philly area colleges and postbaccs and such, which is obviously to be expected there. My tour guide (i know, its just one person) when asked "what do you NOT like about jefferson", she immediately blurted "the student body is not diverse on any level here". Again, thats only person's opinion, and I've taken it with a grain of salt 🙂

For the record, Jefferson gives honors grades to you if you get a 90 percent or above, NOT the top 10% of the class
my apologies, i misspoke. thanks for correcting me 🙂

It's a great place but I'm sure all of the schools on your list are great. How did YOU feel about them when you visited? That's what's really important I love Jeff 😀 and the scholarship money doesnt hurt 😉

Originally posted by cg1
But they still suffer from an image problem. So when students are advising the OP about the schools, the reputation of the school is a factor. That's *one* of the reasons why Drexel is last on so many lists
I never disputed this point. I just dont want people here to think that Drexel cant provide someone a quality medical education for something that happened before some people here even started college. Once people get it through their heads that drexel is a sound medical school these days, I think their image problems will go away 🙂

 

[Wednesday]

DW,

No feathers ruffled and definitly no apologies needed. I was just trying to add my own opinions to this opinion laden thread (as it should be, that's what the OP asked for after all). It sounds like you got a dud of a tour guide (it wasn't me! I'll tell you that! 😀 ) Perhaps I'll see you next year at Jefferson!