- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 182
- Reaction score
- 1
As far as I know, Case Western seems to emphasize PBL. I was wondering if PBL is common amongst the curriculums of medical schools? If not, which schools seem to emphasize this style of learning?
Which schools' curriculums are PBL based?
- Thread starter ohmedschool
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 2,750
- Reaction score
- 12
I hope you're asking this question so as to avoid those schools...
PBL: 😴 (if there was a "wasting my time" emoticon, it would be applicable here)
Obligatory edit: Those are all great schools, and if you go to one of them I'm sure you'd get a great education. But PBL is one of those things that pre-meds think they'll LOVE...then they get to be med students and hate it. Trust me.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 182
- Reaction score
- 1
I've heard that people either really hate it or love it. I take it you don't particular fancy PBL...what are your reasons? And I'm guessing they don't have it at Duke? (I recognize you from the Duke secondary thread). Personally, I think that PBL will probably do a good job hammering the knowledge into a person's head, but what troubles me is that a person would have to come up with what's relevant to know in the first place.
Is PBL more effective than traditional, integrated curriculum? I tried looking for studies but didn't find anything recent.
Thanks guys
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2006
- Messages
- 1,810
- Reaction score
- 3
Effective? I don't know. I think it's an issue of style, not effectiveness.
At UCSD we have mostly traditional lecture with some PBL components. I think it's a good balance because, while the interaction in PBL helps solidify learning, it's very inefficient/slow and requires a lot of outside preparation.
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 2,750
- Reaction score
- 12
So PBL sounds great in theory. You work in groups with your classmates and study everything about a case...what a fun and cool way to learn! The problem comes when you realize these inefficient sessions are 2-3 hours long when you could learn the same information in 30 minutes on your own.
Premeds cannot understand the time constraints on medical students. Even if you were always a class goer in undergrad, there is >75% you will realize you are far more effective by skipping class and just studying on your own (I say 75% because that's the percentage of students that stop going to class). The ability to stream lectures or just stay at home to study is HUGE in terms of your productivity. Not only that, but because you're more productive and efficient you'll have more free time, which is obviously important.
So in sum:
1. PBL is inefficient because you and your classmates don't know anything! (or you're required to research stuff on your own coming in, making the session kind of pointless)
2. They are MANDATORY
3. You'd learn the same information in 1/4 of the time on your own
And Duke doesn't have PBL per se but does have some small group sessions during the pharmacology block second semester. It's like pseudo-PBL. Trust me on this, guys...poll all the medical students on SDN and 90% of them will agree with me.
Premeds cannot understand the time constraints on medical students. Even if you were always a class goer in undergrad, there is >75% you will realize you are far more effective by skipping class and just studying on your own (I say 75% because that's the percentage of students that stop going to class). The ability to stream lectures or just stay at home to study is HUGE in terms of your productivity. Not only that, but because you're more productive and efficient you'll have more free time, which is obviously important.
So in sum:
1. PBL is inefficient because you and your classmates don't know anything! (or you're required to research stuff on your own coming in, making the session kind of pointless)
2. They are MANDATORY
3. You'd learn the same information in 1/4 of the time on your own
And Duke doesn't have PBL per se but does have some small group sessions during the pharmacology block second semester. It's like pseudo-PBL. Trust me on this, guys...poll all the medical students on SDN and 90% of them will agree with me.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2006
- Messages
- 1,810
- Reaction score
- 3
👍 I want to wholeheartedly agree with this.
Again, the discussion is helpful (especially if you have a good facilitator who will guide you to the right conclusions)... but the inefficiency is a huge factor.
I am having a great time in med school and I feel very happy and balanced because I'm able to manage my schedule in the way that's best for me. Few mandatory sessions = yay!
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 1
I think University of Missouri is PBL based, in fact they may have been one of the first schools to start it.
At KU we have PBL sessions maybe twice per module (modules are either 4 or 8 weeks long), which is perfect for me. I agree with everything else that has been said, PBL is ok in small doses, and sometimes it is a nice supplement to foundations developed in lecture. But overall I WOULD NOT want to go to a school where PBL is the core of their curriculum, it's just not my style of learning. Just as other's have said, you are either going to love it or hate it.
At KU we have PBL sessions maybe twice per module (modules are either 4 or 8 weeks long), which is perfect for me. I agree with everything else that has been said, PBL is ok in small doses, and sometimes it is a nice supplement to foundations developed in lecture. But overall I WOULD NOT want to go to a school where PBL is the core of their curriculum, it's just not my style of learning. Just as other's have said, you are either going to love it or hate it.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2006
- Messages
- 1,810
- Reaction score
- 3
Yes, Stanford is considered a PBL school. So is UCSF.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2006
- Messages
- 4,106
- Reaction score
- 850
It's just another way learning, and definitely not a one-size-fits-all solution. If you are interested then I would suggest you do a lot of reading about it before you decide.
That said, we're strictly PBL here and it's a LOT of work.
I think a lot of people get frustrated because the whole point of PBL is not to learn during the 2 hour sessions, but to identify what you don't know and then ON YOUR OWN (or your study group) go read and learn the material. The point of the session is not to teach you stuff.
I get a little frustrated when people say things like it's a "waste a time" or "you don't learn anything in small group"..... yea, that's kind of missing the point. I'm in class ONLY 2 hours a day (PBL here is only 3x a week) and the rest of the time is mine to read and learn, so I don't really see where time is wasted. I guess if you're in a lecture based program and just skip all the lectures you'd have a lot of time....then what's the point of the lectures if you don't go?
It's not that one way is better than the other, it's just another way to cover and present the material. An advantage for me is that I've pretty much read most all of my textbooks and am very familiar with where to find something in them. And, again at least for me, I think it'll ease the transition to rotations a little due to the sort case based approach and just being comfortable on where to find a given piece of information.
If you like to read a lot, work independently, can interact in small groups, and don't mind jumping into a ton of material with possibly little guidance then it may work for you.
Here's the process in a nutshell --> In small group you start a case and as you go along you focus on the basic sciences behind whatever tests or clinical presentation is given to you while listing basic science topics that you need to learn in order to understand whatever is in front of you. Now you go home and study whatever ya'll chose to read. Next time you meet up you may spend a few minutes tying up some loose ends from last time you met and maybe clarifying something you read, but the main focus is now on moving forward in the case so that you can identify more topics that you need to know in order to understand wherever you're now at in the case....rinse, lather repeat.
That said, we're strictly PBL here and it's a LOT of work.
I think a lot of people get frustrated because the whole point of PBL is not to learn during the 2 hour sessions, but to identify what you don't know and then ON YOUR OWN (or your study group) go read and learn the material. The point of the session is not to teach you stuff.
I get a little frustrated when people say things like it's a "waste a time" or "you don't learn anything in small group"..... yea, that's kind of missing the point. I'm in class ONLY 2 hours a day (PBL here is only 3x a week) and the rest of the time is mine to read and learn, so I don't really see where time is wasted. I guess if you're in a lecture based program and just skip all the lectures you'd have a lot of time....then what's the point of the lectures if you don't go?
It's not that one way is better than the other, it's just another way to cover and present the material. An advantage for me is that I've pretty much read most all of my textbooks and am very familiar with where to find something in them. And, again at least for me, I think it'll ease the transition to rotations a little due to the sort case based approach and just being comfortable on where to find a given piece of information.
If you like to read a lot, work independently, can interact in small groups, and don't mind jumping into a ton of material with possibly little guidance then it may work for you.
Here's the process in a nutshell --> In small group you start a case and as you go along you focus on the basic sciences behind whatever tests or clinical presentation is given to you while listing basic science topics that you need to learn in order to understand whatever is in front of you. Now you go home and study whatever ya'll chose to read. Next time you meet up you may spend a few minutes tying up some loose ends from last time you met and maybe clarifying something you read, but the main focus is now on moving forward in the case so that you can identify more topics that you need to know in order to understand wherever you're now at in the case....rinse, lather repeat.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2006
- Messages
- 1,810
- Reaction score
- 3
I don't think small group is useless or a waste of time. I think they're inefficient, though.
Some people really like the lectures. Some people like to not go and have lots of free time. I think it's about flexibility.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
- Messages
- 12
- Reaction score
- 0
I think the most famous PBL school is Harvard. They talked about it a lot in the New Pathway interviews. Actually, flexibility is not the biggest advantage since each seminar requires the attendance of every single student every time. It's pretty hard to ask for an absence. The only difference is some people learn better when they get to talk and discuss things with their fellow classmates and for those people, PBL is like heaven. (or something on that level 😛)
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2009
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 0
Southern Illinois University is entirely PBL. Actually, they were the first to develop the PBL curriculum.
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2008
- Messages
- 3,773
- Reaction score
- 3,749
Ehhh... I think an overall purpose of PBL is being overlooked here. Very rarely in a working environment are you working ALONE, often to solve a problem it takes a team effort - that's (at least one) purpose of PBL. Don't forget that medical school is a professional school, and there is more to the story than just learning random pathways and pharmacology.
Some people are more social than others, and some actualy 🙂eek🙂 enjoy going to class, and seeing their friends (who cares about efficiency, you're PAYING to go to school so you might as well go to class!). What would you do with your spare time alone back at your apartment, other than be a hermit?
Anyway, it seems to me that PBL is a decent team-building exercise and almost forces people (not already accustomed to it) to work together. This is an extremely important skill used later down the road in the workplace. PBL probably isn't for everyone, but most people I know look back to their experience very positively for what it taught them on a subliminal level. Hope this helps!
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2007
- Messages
- 77
- Reaction score
- 0
It actually originated at McMaster University in Canada in the late 1960s. Since then their curriculum has remained nearly entirely PBL and many other schools have begun to implement it.
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 914
- Reaction score
- 3
Northwestern prides itself on being PBL focused as well.
I understand that PBL works for some and doesn't work for others; it depends on what kind of learner you are. However, I think that the general SDN trend of medical students saying PBL is crap and to avoid it at all costs is pretty extreme. I've visited several schools that are "PBL-based" and asked how the students felt about it. I was pleasantly surprised that most strongly supported it. Nobody said it was easy though.
I understand that PBL works for some and doesn't work for others; it depends on what kind of learner you are. However, I think that the general SDN trend of medical students saying PBL is crap and to avoid it at all costs is pretty extreme. I've visited several schools that are "PBL-based" and asked how the students felt about it. I was pleasantly surprised that most strongly supported it. Nobody said it was easy though.
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 2,750
- Reaction score
- 12
No, it doesn't. I said in my original post that almost every premed thinks PBL is the greatest thing since internet porn, so unless you've gone through it and love it you really are just speculating (and truly, no offense intended...I was in your shoes long ago). I'll make my refuting points bulleted so I don't have to write complete sentences.
1. To your point about some people being social: I'm a very social, extraverted individual. But if you're being social during class, you're not getting much out of it. Besides, increased productivity will matter a lot more than you think, especially when you say things like "who cares about efficiency?" You'll learn soon enough. You're paying for medical school not to go to class but to learn and study how you see fit for yourself. And for many, this is done at home.
2. Hermitness- if you have more free time due to staying at home and studying yourself, why do you think you'd spend that time alone? You could hang out with friends in an actual social setting (i.e. not class). Takes me back to point #1.
3. Team building- you will get plenty of this throughout your medical school education. There will be blocks where you have to work in teams (e.g. anatomy), and during your rotations you'll always have times where you work with partners or in small groups. And at my school (and I'm guessing it's not at all unique), we've had several interdisciplinary conference-type things where we work alongside not only each other, but also nursing students, PA students, etc. So the team building isn't restricted to PBL.
Well, so much for incomplete sentences. Look, I'm not telling you what you will like...I'm telling you what the majority of medical students who get a little bit of both will tell you. In fact, there was a thread in Allo a while back about this very topic. And again, the vast majority slammed PBL (mainly because it's mandatory and inefficient). Just remember that as premeds a lot of us looked positively upon PBL, so your arguments don't surprise me in the least.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,506
- Reaction score
- 7
I was under the impression that both were basically predicated on PBL, but in all actuality they are not. Both UCSF and Stanford incorporate aspects of PBL into their curriculum (as do most schools) but it does not take up the majority of the curricular presentation (like it does at Cornell). At least that's the impression I got from when I visited
most schools have some form of CBL or PBL:
e.g's
Iowa, Rochester, UCLA (hehehehe although th UCSD students were bashing UCLA b/c apparently the students are really stressed out all the time at UCLA), Pitt, Wake, Miami, Emory, etc...
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 914
- Reaction score
- 3
Here's an honest, not rhetorical question to the med students on this thread who are criticizing PBL:
If PBL is bad, why does it seem that many schools with big reputations to uphold are moving towards a PBL-based curriculum? If it doesn't help its students to learn better than a traditional lecture-based curriculum and if the students openly do not enjoy it, why is it still around? Seems like more work on their end (i.e. coming up with cases, paying faculty to moderate PBL sessions) than a traditional lecture-based curriculum.
I'm very curious as I've interviewed at and may be considering several PBL-heavy schools.
If PBL is bad, why does it seem that many schools with big reputations to uphold are moving towards a PBL-based curriculum? If it doesn't help its students to learn better than a traditional lecture-based curriculum and if the students openly do not enjoy it, why is it still around? Seems like more work on their end (i.e. coming up with cases, paying faculty to moderate PBL sessions) than a traditional lecture-based curriculum.
I'm very curious as I've interviewed at and may be considering several PBL-heavy schools.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
- Messages
- 3,452
- Reaction score
- 3,393
Once you're knee deep in the muck that is 2nd year, you start to realize why PBL is not 'all that and a bag of chips'. Step I, as you may know, is really important and for most of us, the best way to study for it is learning facts, working on qbank, reading FA, etc. PBL, as much as I think it's a great way to train to be a better doctor, is not a good way, imo, to learn the material to do as well on Step I.
In fact, in regards to step I, not only do many find PBL a waste of time, but even normal, didactic lectures a waste of time, as many students can work more effeciently on their own. Let's face it, pretty much all of us in medical school are pretty damn smart and can teach things to ourselves as long as we have a good source. Medical school is tough, but it's not like we're solving differential equations or working on molecular modeling.
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 2,750
- Reaction score
- 12
That's a great question. I just want to make it clear that I don't consider PBL "useless" from a learning point of view, just inefficient and a nuisance to students. I think AdmiralChz made a good point with respect to how PBL is a "team-building exercise", and I think this is why admins like it (but again, as students you'll get that learning elsewhere). Students who don't like PBL dislike it because it's a) mandatory, and b) inefficient. Very few admins are going to eliminate PBL because their students don't like that they have to show up.
Although my school doesn't have much in the way of PBL, we had several mandatory sessions during the 2nd semester of my first year. It sucked but it wasn't totally "useless"...a lot like PBL in that sense. I think my time would have been better spent elsewhere during a lot of those sessions, however.
If a school has only a couple PBL sessions per week, that's not so bad. But I would bet that predominantly PBL schools are likely more work than ones with lecture-based curriculums.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2006
- Messages
- 807
- Reaction score
- 1
You can look up school curricula here:
http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm
http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm
- Joined
- May 27, 2008
- Messages
- 3,280
- Reaction score
- 82
I'm totally, 100% guessing here, but I have a couple of ideas.
1) PBL is trendy. If you're a school that wants to look like you're keeping up with the times, wouldn't you adopt the "newest pedagogical methods"? I'm guessing that med school curricular trends are exactly that; trends. When someone adopts a new method that sounds just fine, and people are attracted to it, why wouldn't everyone else adopt it as well? This bring me to:
2) Premeds like PBL, as we can see. I mean, hell, I did this too. I'd go to interviews and ask students: "How much time do you spend in lecture?". And of course I'd be attracted to the schools that had a couple of hours of lecture a day max, and then maybe a PBL session, and that's it. The fact is, a lot of premeds don't consider the fact that while lecture is skippable, PBL is not. Also, to think that "we learn better through PBL" is sort of silly, since I'm guessing none of us have ever had PBL before. But hey, it sounds good. Less lecture time, more chatting about cool cases? Why, it's just like House! Anyways, if you're a school that wants to attract the top students, who tend to be the most self-motivated and disciplined students, you're smart to say "we won't force you to sit through hours and hours of lecture, but here's this cool new curriculum, where you only have to show up a couple of times a week and discuss cases like an adult instead of being spoon-fed information".
Which brings me to...
3) It doesn't really matter. There's a reason why the vast majority of heavily-PBL schools are the super-top-ranked ones: because no matter how you teach those students, they're going to do great. I mean, we're all striving to get the MD, no one's going to throw in the towel just cause the curriculum is stupid. We'd all shrug our shoulders and get to work, study on our own and eventually do just fine. Of course, this just makes people think PBL is what's making Cornell and Northwestern students get top residencies- but somehow I doubt that. People who get 4.0's and 38's before arriving to med school are probably quite bright and self-motivated and will do well no matter what. Would they have done better/learned more easily had there been a lecture-heavy curriculum which they could have attended or not? No way to know. However, since they do fine, schools have no reason to have to overhaul their trendy PBL curriculum and lose a few starry-eyed premeds in the process.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2006
- Messages
- 1,810
- Reaction score
- 3
LET, love your post - totally agree with you.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2009
- Messages
- 115
- Reaction score
- 0
This is a very informative thread. I didn't even know what PBL was about 2 weeks ago, but now I do.
Thanks MrBurns10 for all your honest input. Duke sounds awesome. I won't be applying until 2011, but I'd go to Duke in a heart beat if given the chance.
Thanks copingmethods for the link, very helpful.
PBL sounds like a big headache. Of course that's a first impression, and I'll explore it more, but first impressions are important indeed.
Thanks MrBurns10 for all your honest input. Duke sounds awesome. I won't be applying until 2011, but I'd go to Duke in a heart beat if given the chance.
Thanks copingmethods for the link, very helpful.
PBL sounds like a big headache. Of course that's a first impression, and I'll explore it more, but first impressions are important indeed.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
- Messages
- 1,727
- Reaction score
- 24
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2004
- Messages
- 20,793
- Reaction score
- 111
My personal thought on PBL:
If the curriculum is heavilly PBL based (50%+, supplemented by labs, etc.) then you're probably doing enough of it for it to be worth your time. Schools with heavy PBL curricula produce students that do just fine.
If it's just an add on, (an hour or two/week in addition to your lecture based curriculum) it's probably not going to be that helpful. While it might help show you how to apply the material you're studying, and get you thinking in a clinical mindset, there are some more efficient ways to do this and it just winds up being a time-thief.
IMO, PBL is best used as an "all-or-none" tool.
If the curriculum is heavilly PBL based (50%+, supplemented by labs, etc.) then you're probably doing enough of it for it to be worth your time. Schools with heavy PBL curricula produce students that do just fine.
If it's just an add on, (an hour or two/week in addition to your lecture based curriculum) it's probably not going to be that helpful. While it might help show you how to apply the material you're studying, and get you thinking in a clinical mindset, there are some more efficient ways to do this and it just winds up being a time-thief.
IMO, PBL is best used as an "all-or-none" tool.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
- Messages
- 1,727
- Reaction score
- 24
I think I've seen you make this exact point before and it makes perfect sense.
Can I ask a question and expose my ignorance? In the context we are discussing in this thread, what is the difference between CBL and PBL? Are they the same? If CBL is a type of PBL, are there any schools that use primarily (or even almost exclusively) CBL?
Also... Are there any schools that use individual PBL/CBL? One of the downsides of group PBL in my mind has always been that you are reliant on the other members of a group, a real x factor that you can't control... But if it were individual PBL/CBL, then it would seem much more attractive to me.
Can I ask a question and expose my ignorance? In the context we are discussing in this thread, what is the difference between CBL and PBL? Are they the same? If CBL is a type of PBL, are there any schools that use primarily (or even almost exclusively) CBL?
Also... Are there any schools that use individual PBL/CBL? One of the downsides of group PBL in my mind has always been that you are reliant on the other members of a group, a real x factor that you can't control... But if it were individual PBL/CBL, then it would seem much more attractive to me.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 2,365
- Reaction score
- 165
Only New Pathway is PBL though. HST is not.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 2,365
- Reaction score
- 165
Honestly though, only the students who have only good things to say come out to those student/applicant mixers. I would bet those who hated PBL at a PBL school would either not bring it up to applicants or stay away from the applicants.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 2,365
- Reaction score
- 165
One school (forget which) that said they did not have PBL but did have case-based learning said the latter was more directed, so it was less students fumbling around trying to figure out what was important and more someone gently nudging them in the right direction. I found the explanation somewht vague myself. I wish I could remember which school this was.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
- Messages
- 1,727
- Reaction score
- 24
Thanks scarleezie. Dude... To be honest, I feel like a case-based system (if I understand "case-based" correct) would be awesome, if individuals were held responsible for every aspect of their own case... and then presented them to a small group... but definitely not working WITH a small group on shared cases. That would just be weak.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 2,365
- Reaction score
- 165
I still think the "case" is shared. The case is also longitudinal in that it lasts at least a couple of sessions, maybe several weeks. Also, people in the PBL system definitely have responsibilities, one of my student hosts had been assigned to draw out a piece of anatomy for her PBL case. But yes, I have sat in on a PBL session, and it's very easy for a couple students to kind of take over the session while everyone else watches and for the group to pursue a dead end. The facilitator knows the right direction though and I imagine he'd intercede if the group was totally off track.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
- Messages
- 1,754
- Reaction score
- 17
All PBL curriculums are not the same. You guys realize that 80% of the 125 U.S. Medical Schools have some form of PBL in their curriculum. Chances are you'll have to do some form of case-based/problem-based learning at the medical school you attend.
Only about 25 have what is considered a true PBL curriculum.
PBL means very different things at different schools. So research the school and understand what they mean when they say PBL, because the letters themselves tell you almost nothing about the curriculum other than cases are integrated into your learning in some manner.
Only about 25 have what is considered a true PBL curriculum.
PBL means very different things at different schools. So research the school and understand what they mean when they say PBL, because the letters themselves tell you almost nothing about the curriculum other than cases are integrated into your learning in some manner.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
- Messages
- 1,727
- Reaction score
- 24
Darn. Too bad.
It'd be awesome if:
a) the cases weren't shared at all, but were unique for each student
b) the cases were simulated so they could be greatly accelerated (1/day or maybe 2/week)
c) the cases forces students to use the systems (as opposed to disciplines) based approach... meaning they would deal with the anatomic, physiologic, social and lab studies, etc...
It'd be awesome if:
a) the cases weren't shared at all, but were unique for each student
b) the cases were simulated so they could be greatly accelerated (1/day or maybe 2/week)
c) the cases forces students to use the systems (as opposed to disciplines) based approach... meaning they would deal with the anatomic, physiologic, social and lab studies, etc...
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
- Messages
- 1,727
- Reaction score
- 24
Haha. I just happened to be sitting with my boss just now and asked him if he could explain the difference between PBL and CBL. He replied "I wrote a paper about it about a year ago." I'm attaching it. Haha. How wierd.
EDIT: nevermind! do not read this paper. i just finished reading it and it's the most bias, agenda-driven paper i've ever read! i just chewed out my boss. can't believe he'd write something like this.
EDIT: nevermind! do not read this paper. i just finished reading it and it's the most bias, agenda-driven paper i've ever read! i just chewed out my boss. can't believe he'd write something like this.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2006
- Messages
- 200
- Reaction score
- 0
Can you link us to the allo thread?
PBL is pretty low on the list of my considerations for medical school, but id like to be prepared for it if and when it comes next year. It seems like, at least within this thread, that opponents to PBL who are currently medical students come from schools that do not have a PBL based curriculum or put less emphasis on PBL (thus diminishing its effectiveness). I'd be interested in hearing opinions from students at places that have a lot of PBL and see what they think of it. This is also the general trend I found among the people I know (not interview day students) who are currently in medical school, those who do not have it were absolutely certain that it was a useless waste of time, and those in the thick of it can see no other way to learn medicine. If you're a med student who could voice an opinion, can you also identify how much of your curriculum is PBL, so we have some idea of your basis for judgment.
for me, anything that is mandatory just rubs me the wrong way.
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2007
- Messages
- 456
- Reaction score
- 13
Haha. That's pretty fortunate. Thanks for the read!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 2,750
- Reaction score
- 12
I apologize, I was totally wrong about it being in allo. I think this is the thread I was referring to (I mistakenly said "poll').
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=582847&highlight=curriculum
There are several med students and a resident or two that weigh in. In fact, if you search for "PBL" or "curriculum" there are several threads where med students give their opinions. I think it'd be interesting if you or someone else started a poll, though.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2006
- Messages
- 4,106
- Reaction score
- 850
Currently finishing up 2nd year of an ALL PBL curriculum (with exception for OMM, Clinical Exam/skills courses, and a few other small courses that only last a couple weeks like Jurisprudence, public health, behavior science, etc...)
I agree with someone above who said that PBL should basically be an all or nothing deal. I have a fairly long post above about the pbl "process" so go read that, but basically very little learning occurs in the actual sessions, it's not made for that. The sessions and cases are the framework from which you develop a list of topics you need to study.
People seem to either enjoy it (well, as much as you can "enjoy" med school) or hate it. If you hate it you'll be absolutely miserable and may not do well, so our school focuses on finding those who they think will do well in the curriculum, so a lot of emphasis is placed on making sure applicants know what it is.
All I know is there's no way I could sit in hours of lectures each day. Yea the sessions are mandatory....but it's 2 freaking hours 3x a week, not really a big deal. If I was in a traditional curriculum and just skipped lectures I might as well have gone to an independent study school.
And I enjoy that fact that I am coming up with what I should study, that I'm working my way through an issue and figuring it out for myself. Everyone learns a little differently, but I just have no desire to study if I'm just handed a syllabus and a bunch of powerpoints and lecture notes to read and study. So for me having the framework of the cases and coming up with what we need to cover ourselves really helps keep me a little more motivated than I otherwise would be. Again, everyone is different and someone else may absolutely hate that sort of process and really would like a syllabus and to know ahead of time what's going to be covered, if that's you then don't go PBL, simple.
Do you like reading the actual textbooks? We have to rely on our texts as that's where our testing issues comes from. So by the end of year 2 we've pretty much read our books from cover to cover once or twice. There is a lot of redundancy as the cases are setup so that most of the basic science concepts tend to be covered two times. It's a lot of reading. But for me that's good.
I am not good at memorizing and can't just study from powerpoints and a high yield list of facts. I need to read my way through a pathway or the pathyphys of a disease so I can really understand it. And the schedule is setup to allow the time for that.
The curriculum here seems to be working well. For the past 2 years we've either been 1st or 2nd in the country (among DO schools) for avg COMLEX scores and pass rates.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2006
- Messages
- 4,106
- Reaction score
- 850
Can't find a simple list of schools w/ PBL, so not sure if this is what you're looking for.... but on this link you can select a school and looks like it shows aspects of its curriculum.
http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/innovations.cfm
http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/innovations.cfm
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2011
- Messages
- 47
- Reaction score
- 3
I'd just like to bump this to ask if there is a list of schools that have heavy PBL curriculums. I'm guessing a list already exists on SDN, I just didn't find it. If not, would people mind listing some schools that have significant (>50%) PBL curriculums? I'm beginning to look at curriculums to help sharpen my list of schools that I plan to apply to next year.
Sorry if any of that didn't make sense; I'm tired as hell.
Thanks.
Sorry if any of that didn't make sense; I'm tired as hell.
Thanks.
Similar threads
