D
deleted1095841
Title says it all. In which specialties would an away rotation be recommended? In which would it be required?
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2017
- Messages
- 3,788
- Reaction score
- 6,031
- EM to get your Standardized Letter of Evaluations (SLoE) from at least 2 programs. If you have a home program, then you need at least one away.
- All competitive specialties (Ortho, N Surg, Plastics, Derm, etc...) to maximize your chances of matching. Do as many as you can!
- All competitive specialties (Ortho, N Surg, Plastics, Derm, etc...) to maximize your chances of matching. Do as many as you can!
D
deleted1095841
Thanks! What about IM, Neuro, Radiology, and Ophtho?
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2017
- Messages
- 3,788
- Reaction score
- 6,031
IM and Neuro are not competitive so not needed. Unless you are targeting a specific program or one of the top 20-30.
Ophtho definitely, it's super competitive
Radiology maybe, it's borderline competitive as well, but not like Ophtho, Ortho, Derm, etc...
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2010
- Messages
- 3,295
- Reaction score
- 10,721
Would add ent to the list. Seems like most people do at least one these days. I didn’t do one, but in retrospect wish I had just so I’d have had more perspective when evaluating programs. I’d probably have still ended up where I did, but felt more confident in that choice early on.
Would also add pretty much anyone without a home department in their chosen field, just for specialty specific letters.
Would also add pretty much anyone without a home department in their chosen field, just for specialty specific letters.
Radiology definitely doesn’t, if only because there’s not much to do on a radiology rotation to impress. IR is an exception.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2022
- Messages
- 134
- Reaction score
- 139
rads is +/-
I wouldn't discourage someone from doing an away at a place they really really want. Lots of people who did aways this cycle matched at their institution. Just try to be normal.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2018
- Messages
- 1,228
- Reaction score
- 1,765
I have never heard of doing an away for anesthesia.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2012
- Messages
- 1,833
- Reaction score
- 3,534
Apparently becoming more common based on reddit. Have heard tons of people say they were "strongly recommended" to do one. But at my institution, almost no one does them.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2014
- Messages
- 1,079
- Reaction score
- 1,791
I think if you don't have a home program its worth it.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2018
- Messages
- 1,228
- Reaction score
- 1,765
Thats crazy. I mean I know it is becoming more competitive but I don't think its near audition competitive quite yet.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2022
- Messages
- 136
- Reaction score
- 254
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,630
- Reaction score
- 76,642
Aways in psych are a good help or a nail in your coffin, depending. I feel like a good portion of people match where they do aways in the field compared with others, which makes sense given the very personality-driven nature of psych
Maybe things have changed since I went through the Match five years ago. At least back then, the consensus was that you might do an away if you want to for your own purposes (to experience a program you were considering ranking highly, etc.), but that it was completely unnecessary for the purposes of matching well. I don’t think anyone I knew did an away in psych and doing one was not really a thing.
Also, as an aside, the following might just be a “me thing” but I think it is a “psych thing.” I find it strangely kind of difficult for a student on psych to impress and/or stand out. There aren’t really any procedures in psych and most of the psychotherapy happens in outpatient visits. Nobody is going to let a med student attempt psychotherapy on their patients during outpatient visits they are billing for (based on time). You might be able to show an impressive level of knowledge about DSM criteria or something, but ironically the DSM is also something that seems to get deemphasized the further you go in practice (i.e. everyone gets taught that you need 5 criteria for MDD, but no good psychiatrist I know is going to avoid diagnosing obvious depression and starting an antidepressant because they have 4 criteria). Dosages can be looked up. I guess I might be impressed if a med student could recite all of the REMS criteria or something, but even then. Most of the actual proficiency in psychiatry is in the realm of nuanced diagnostics that no medical student is going to know. Obviously it’s not impossible to be a truly impressive med student but I think that it is, oddly, particularly difficult in psychiatry because of the lack of “demonstrables” for med students.
On the flip side, I think you’re definitely right that it’s very easy to demonstrate that you are a terrible med student and/or a terrible fit for psychiatry. There are a few ways I’ve primarily seen this occur. One is where the med student has either an explicit or implicit disdain for the methods of psychiatry and doesn’t seem to think that experienced psychiatrists have anything of value to offer. If the med student won’t listen to the attending or resident’s teaching about assessment and treatment or change their practice accordingly in the same way they would if they were being taught auscultation by a cardiology fellow, that’s a big problem. The other thing that can happen is that the med student simply has terrible bedside manner and patient rapport-building skills. If the med student is hostile or contemptuous towards patients, even subtly, that’s always very bad. Both of these types of students often seem to have no idea that this is how they’re coming across, too, so it’s not inconceivable that someone might even get to the point of doing an away and still look like a tool.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,630
- Reaction score
- 76,642
Psych has gotten considerably more competitive over the past few years. Of the programs I'm really close with about half of the classes from the past 4 years are comprised of people that did aways. To stand out the big thing is just personality and how well people think you fit within the program. Knowledge can be taught, but personalities... They are a challenge to address if they conflict with the general vibe of a program. Poor interpersonal skills with patients and superficial disinterest are other potential app killers, and are surprisingly common in the "psych as a lifestyle specialty" types that have no real love for the field itself.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2016
- Messages
- 1,275
- Reaction score
- 2,100
Some good points in here.
Having just gone through the psych match and matching at one of two places where I did an away (worth noting that the away I ranked higher didn't match me), I think a lot of the current landscape of aways in psychiatry is demonstrating a lot of what you mention personality-wise, and also sincere interest in the program, being a team player, and work ethic. You can't demonstrate those well on an app and with the massive increase in apps sent in recent cycles, it helps to separate those interested in the program who are grossly competent versus those simply applying to match somewhere.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2017
- Messages
- 899
- Reaction score
- 1,723
This is so true. The absolute worst resident to deal with isn't the one who's incompetent (because that can be fixed), it's the one who is arrogant, overly-confident, and bristles at anyone (including attendings and patients) who doesn't show them deference, let alone disagrees with them. These kind of people can hide it during interviews, but it always comes out during aways.
Another aspect of aways is assessing work ethic and inpatient competency. If you're late, slack off, or need to be constantly prodded to do things on your away, there are places that'll turn you down regardless of how smart or thoughtful you are.
All of the highly competitive fields for sure ( Neurosurgery, integrated plastics, ENT, ortho, etc.). I think on the remaining ones that are not super competitive, a lot of it depends on a few variables, such as what school you are coming from, is there a home program, type of scores you have, LOR, etc. If you present a strong app from a top school for example, and don't want to go into academics, do you need to do an away at a psych program, maybe, maybe not.
Students at lower tiered school that present a top application for competitive specialities should absolutely do away rotations at the programs they want to match to...it presents an opportunity for an applicant to shine. Of course, It could also spell disaster if you fail to impress.
Some programs are notorious for not even considering those that have not rotated and are not home applicants.
So, I think aways are something that every applicant should consider and all options should be on the table that put them in the best position to match.
Students at lower tiered school that present a top application for competitive specialities should absolutely do away rotations at the programs they want to match to...it presents an opportunity for an applicant to shine. Of course, It could also spell disaster if you fail to impress.
Some programs are notorious for not even considering those that have not rotated and are not home applicants.
So, I think aways are something that every applicant should consider and all options should be on the table that put them in the best position to match.
