Which specialty allows you to have a more balanced life?

[Winged Scapula]

If they're posting on Facebook, they probably aren't busy enough to have to be there before 9

True - but we're not talking about whether people are really *working* for 40 hours per week but rather how long they are expected to be at work.

My argument, and that of others, is that the "9-5" of music and film fame no longer exists and hasn't for many decades. The workweek in the US is 40 hours. That means 8 hours of work x 5 days, excluding lunches.

People who post from FB during business hours may not be busy enough, may be goofing off (which is why we blocked it from our office) or may be on break. Most of my friends who post on FB are doing so before 900 which was meant to validate my point that they are still required to be at work by 800 (or earlier) even if they can relax a bit first.

People in medicine act like we're the only ones who work long hours.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[PL198]

True - but we're not talking about whether people are really *working* for 40 hours per week but rather how long they are expected to be at work.

My argument, and that of others, is that the "9-5" of music and film fame no longer exists and hasn't for many decades. The workweek in the US is 40 hours. That means 8 hours of work x 5 days, excluding lunches.

People who post from FB during business hours may not be busy enough, may be goofing off (which is why we blocked it from our office) or may be on break. Most of my friends who post on FB are doing so before 900 which was meant to validate my point that they are still required to be at work by 800 (or earlier) even if they can relax a bit first.

People in medicine act like we're the only ones who work long hours.

there's a big difference from working long hours and " working long hours." medicine works long hours, ie there is actual work being done for 60+ hours a week. a ton of the professions where you " work long hours" you still have to be there, but you're really not doing much or expected to perform.

 

[Slack3r]

there's a big difference from working long hours and " working long hours." medicine works long hours, ie there is actual work being done for 60+ hours a week. a ton of the professions where you " work long hours" you still have to be there, but you're really not doing much or expected to perform.

Have you ever been on an inpatient medicine service?

 

[famoussquamous]

People in medicine act like we're the only ones who work long hours.

I thought it was because people in medicine in general liked complaining about how difficult their work is, not realizing that most adults would kill for a job where they worked 60 hours a week and made 150k+.

 

[username456789]

I thought it was because people in medicine in general liked complaining about how difficult their work is, not realizing that most adults would kill for a job where they worked 60 hours a week and made 150k+.

On the flip side, most would be unwilling to endure what it takes to reach that point.

 

[PL198]

I thought it was because people in medicine in general liked complaining about how difficult their work is, not realizing that most adults would kill for a job where they worked 60 hours a week and made 150k+.

I don't know about kill and that doesn't really mean anything, since the whole reason the compensation is what it is, is because of how expensive, difficult and long the training is.

 

[famoussquamous]

I don't know about kill and that doesn't really mean anything, since the whole reason the compensation is what it is, is because of how expensive, difficult and long the training is.

Right, but it pays off like no other. You sacrifice your 20s to live good in your 30s+

 

[JP2740]

Pediatric dermatoneurosurgery

 

[PL198]

Right, but it pays off like no other. You sacrifice your 20s to live good in your 30s+

not really? the ROI isn't that good. like the ROI is decent but it's not unusual. Live good in your 30s? A lot of people aren't even done with residency by their 30th birthday

 

[JP2740]

not really? the ROI isn't that good. like the ROI is decent but it's not unusual. Live good in your 30s? A lot of people aren't even done with residency by their 30th birthday

Yea even if you get to the point where you're living relatively well with a big salary it'll be towards the end of your 30s

 

[famoussquamous]

not really? the ROI isn't that good. like the ROI is decent but it's not unusual. Live good in your 30s? A lot of people aren't even done with residency by their 30th birthday

I think some MIT mathematician did some calculations a while back and concluded that even with time lost and debt that going through medical school and becoming a physician has the best ROI of any "realistic" job. I'd say that's a good ROI.

Yea even if you get to the point where you're living relatively well with a big salary it'll be towards the end of your 30s

Assuming you started med school at 24, finish residency by 31, and the amount of debt you have is essentially a year deferred salary, so i can see you doing well for yourself by your mid 30s.

 

[JP2740]

I think some MIT mathematician did some calculations a while back and concluded that even with time lost and debt that going through medical school and becoming a physician has the best ROI of any "realistic" job. I'd say that's a good ROI.



Assuming you started med school at 24, finish residency by 31, and the amount of debt you have is essentially a year deferred salary, so i can see you doing well for yourself by your mid 30s.

Yay my mid thirties. when I'm halfway dead

 

[famoussquamous]

Yay my mid thirties. when I'm halfway dead

A man is just entering his prime when he's in his 30s. The fountain of youth was supposed to make you 30 years old. You have a very pessimistic view on life, friend. I would correct that if I were you, otherwise you'll always be unhappy.

 

[KnuxNole]

LOL- but don't they still start at 800 or is the average work week only 35 hrs?

My FB friends (teachers, mechanics, doctors, marketing execs, IT etc) all seem to posting from work before 900.

You guys must have a lot of professional friends!

I know a lot of people who start at 9 and end at 5, mainly office jobs and such...

 

[PL198]

I think some MIT mathematician did some calculations a while back and concluded that even with time lost and debt that going through medical school and becoming a physician has the best ROI of any "realistic" job. I'd say that's a good ROI.



Assuming you started med school at 24, finish residency by 31, and the amount of debt you have is essentially a year deferred salary, so i can see you doing well for yourself by your mid 30s.

Who has a 3 yr residency, and then the amount of debt they have is equal to a year of deferred salary? Mid 30s is a long time, people that got a bachelors or masters have a ~10 yr jump on that person. Compound interest is a very very strong force. You can live really frugally and pay things off quickly and be living great in a pretty short amount of time, but very few physicians do that. People usually get married, have a kid, buy a house, all things which are huge costs.

 

[indynshrty]

I really enjoy being a pediatric hospitalist - when I'm on service I definitely work hard, but when I'm not on service I'm working from home doing academic work. Roughly on service about 20 weeks a year. Also, there are other sites within our group that work 12-14 shifts a month, and those are 12 hour shifts. The rest of the time...up to you.

 

[Mass Effect]

Assuming you started med school at 24, finish residency by 31, and the amount of debt you have is essentially a year deferred salary, so i can see you doing well for yourself by your mid 30s.

First of all, not many have that trajectory of finishing residency by 31. Secondly, whose debt is the same as a year deferred salary????

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

How do you sacrifice your 20's? What would you be doing otherwise? People in med school get married date and do a lot of fun stuff during 4th year and celebrate after big exams like step 1. Yes it is very hard work but if you A lot of people would jump at the chance for residency think of the chaos that premeds go through and all the FMG and IMG's who are begging for spots.

 

[PL198]

How do you sacrifice your 20's? What would you be doing otherwise? People in med school get married date and do a lot of fun stuff during 4th year and celebrate after big exams like step 1. Yes it is very hard work but if you A lot of people would jump at the chance for residency think of the chaos that premeds go through and all the FMG and IMG's who are begging for spots.

I hate this point of view. " Jump at the chance for residency"

Um no they wouldn't, or else they would have done what is necessary to get there. The whole " you're lucky to be here" crap gets so old. We earn it.

 

[KnuxNole]

How do you sacrifice your 20's? What would you be doing otherwise? People in med school get married date and do a lot of fun stuff during 4th year and celebrate after big exams like step 1. Yes it is very hard work but if you A lot of people would jump at the chance for residency think of the chaos that premeds go through and all the FMG and IMG's who are begging for spots.

People want to do fun stuff ALL the time, not just for big exams or 4th year. Compared to most people in their 20s who do fun things daily.

 

[famoussquamous]

People want to do fun stuff ALL the time, not just for big exams or 4th year. Compared to most people in their 20s who do fun things daily.

Do they really though? I feel like most people in their 20s work, watch netflix/tv, go to bars/clubs, and then on the occasional vacation/trip. I doubt that the MAJORITY of people in their 20s party 24/7.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

People want to do fun stuff ALL the time, not just for big exams or 4th year. Compared to most people in their 20s who do fun things daily.

Yeah and I want to sleep with Rihanna that doesn't mean that I can do it. People in their twenties need money to do things and have jobs that they have to do. Also most people start having kids by 26-27.

I hate this point of view. " Jump at the chance for residency"

Um no they wouldn't, or else they would have done what is necessary to get there. The whole " you're lucky to be here" crap gets so old. We earn it.

Not as much as the "I wasted my twenties"

No they work hard and would jump at the chance of residency since they send all the applications in and don't get accepted. Many qualified candidates are not accepted to med school and residency. I know a lot of people who were qualified for ortho and didn't make it. The same argument can be said about those complaining about putting your life on hold. Many people are able to date, marry, go on vacations etc. So why can't you?

 

[PL198]

Do they really though? I feel like most people in their 20s work, watch netflix/tv, go to bars/clubs, and then on the occasional vacation/trip. I doubt that the MAJORITY of people in their 20s party 24/7.

you're telling me you can't understand the difference in leisurely activities between a medical student and avg person in their 20s?

 

[PL198]

Yeah and I want to sleep with Rihanna that doesn't mean that I can do it. People in their twenties need money to do things and have jobs that they have to do. Also most people start having kids by 26-27.





Not as much as the "I wasted my twenties"

No they work hard and would jump at the chance of residency since they send all the applications in and don't get accepted. Many qualified candidates are not accepted to med school and residency. I know a lot of people who were qualified for ortho and didn't make it. The same argument can be said about those complaining about putting your life on hold. Many people are able to date, marry, go on vacations etc. So why can't you?

You're kidding yourself if you don't think you make significant sacrifice. Yes you can have some fun things but compared to avg person in their 20s its not even close.

You sound like one of those attendings who can't fathom how people don't have robbins memorized by heart. " What do you do with your time?"

My entire life isn't going to be devoted to medicine or training to be in medicine. Not gonna happen.

 

[KnuxNole]

Depends, a lot of newer 20 something's are waiting for their 30s. And people with 40 hour workweeks don't let their jobs affect them, they never bring work home, go on the internet a lot, and go out to do things every night(not just drinking). Also the weeks and weeks of big excursions.

 

[Armadillos]

Medschool itself hasnt been too terrible, the first two years you have so much freedom about how and when you study, that you don't really have to miss anything because you just study when you want. Can't get hammered every single night, but that's no huge sacrifice.
Third year sucks pretty bad in some ways, but even then you still have some awesome stuff like getting a solid 2 weeks off at Christmas and getting time off before MS4 starts.
4th year is just absurd how awesome it is its incredible.

I'm sure residency is going to be kind of miserable, but medschool itself is not bad at all. If you combine the couple terrible board prep weeks, the pre test weeks ms1-ms3 and the ms3 surgery/OB/IM months then you have about 6 to 9 months that suck out of 4 years.

 

[famoussquamous]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think you make significant sacrifice. Yes you can have some fun things but compared to avg person in their 20s its not even close.

You sound like one of those attendings who can't fathom how people don't have robbins memorized by heart. " What do you do with your time?"

My entire life isn't going to be devoted to medicine or training to be in medicine. Not gonna happen.

Dude, the average 20 year old isn't drinking/doing drugs every day, backpacking across Europe, making lots of money and "enjoying life" #YOLO style. The average person in their early 20s is either unemployed looking for a job, working a job they don't want or doing some under-funded internship. Maybe your perception is skewed since you probably know kids with trustfunds that can actually afford to "have fun" in their 20s and not worry about the future, but that's not most people in their 20s, not by a long shot.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think you make significant sacrifice. Yes you can have some fun things but compared to avg person in their 20s its not even close.

You sound like one of those attendings who can't fathom how people don't have robbins memorized by heart. " What do you do with your time?"

My entire life isn't going to be devoted to medicine or training to be in medicine. Not gonna happen.

The only job I could get with my high GPA and my micro degree was working in a lab making 10 bucks an hour if my adviser allowed me to continue on after college (not to mention they received cuts in funding). I couldn't move back with my parents and expect anything other than retail. So it would be grad school or another professional school. If I had more free time I would be watching more movies, video games and talk on the phone more. My friends don't have all the weekends off they have to work to. Yes early 20's go out a lot but mid and late twenties people are forming families and advancing their careers...or stuck in the same position.

 

[doapplicant2015]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think you make significant sacrifice. Yes you can have some fun things but compared to avg person in their 20s its not even close.

I am a mid 20's professional in a respected career and I can assure you, there is nothing to be jealous about in my day to day life

 

[famoussquamous]

I am a mid 20's professional in a respected career and I can assure you, there is nothing to be jealous about in my day to day life

Like I said, the people that he's talking about are probably rich kids that don't have to worry about their futures so they can just do nothing in their 20s and still end up doing alright. Honestly, if I wasn't in medical school or graduate school I'd probably still be looking for a job.

 

[KnuxNole]

True, most of the people I know have money, or have easy jobs that involve no weekends, no work after 5, and no outside work. It is easier, but for me, I wanted a job I liked. I like my job, but it's a lot of work, lots of outside work, and keeping up with learning/reading(something that 95% of my non-medical friends never understand/relate, since they don't need to do that in their lives).

 

[fancymylotus]

I am a mid 20's professional in a respected career and I can assure you, there is nothing to be jealous about in my day to day life

Hrm. I'm in my late 20's and I feel the same way.

 

[jeffk805dent]

wasnt sure to ask this in EM subforum but how much do EM physicians in SF and LA generally make? and do they work more hours than in rural areas.? I have a EM friend who seems to have a good gig in San Jose but he says he is underpaid given the ridiculous cost of living in the Silicon Valley.

 

[fancymylotus]

wasnt sure to ask this in EM subforum but how much do EM physicians in SF and LA generally make? and do they work more hours than in rural areas.? I have a EM friend who seems to have a good gig in San Jose but he says he is underpaid given the ridiculous cost of living in the Silicon Valley.

>< only one dentist allowed in allo!!

 

[PL198]

Dude, the average 20 year old isn't drinking/doing drugs every day, backpacking across Europe, making lots of money and "enjoying life" #YOLO style. The average person in their early 20s is either unemployed looking for a job, working a job they don't want or doing some under-funded internship. Maybe your perception is skewed since you probably know kids with trustfunds that can actually afford to "have fun" in their 20s and not worry about the future, but that's not most people in their 20s, not by a long shot.

lol trust funds? alright. I'm glad we established the only people in their 20s outside of medicine are the following
a) trust fund babies
b) unemployed
c) working a dead end job
d) working an internship


seriously you guys can't even entertain the thought that there are other careers out there besides medicine which actually have decent salaries and certainly a better work/play balance. read a-d again and tell me you expect me to take you seriously

 

[e30ftw]

SF and LA are large subareas and compensation will vary widely.

Private groups and groups like CEP can clear 400k/yr which adjusted for COL is like 250k elsewhere.

Kaiser pays ~$275k yr for ~140 hrs/mo with good benefits.

I'm sure you can find some saturated employee job for $130 / hr if you looked as well which is pretty crappy.

<--- EM resident who just got done with the job search and went to med school in California

 

[PL198]

not to mention your definition of fun is drinking/doing drugs, backpacking across europe and going " yolo style"

god forbid just watching a movie with friends, going out to dinner, cooking a nice meal or anything like that

 

[fancymylotus]

not to mention your definition of fun is drinking/doing drugs, backpacking across europe and going " yolo style"

god forbid just watching a movie with friends, going out to dinner, cooking a nice meal or anything like that

Backpacking across Europe?! That does not sound fun.

 

[jeffk805dent]

>< only one dentist allowed in allo!!

I wasnt aware the gestapo existed in SDN.

 

[fancymylotus]

I wasnt aware the gestapo existed in SDN.

I am making grouchy faces at you. . . .

 

[jeffk805dent]

Backpacking across Europe?! That does not sound fun.

ditto. but motorcycling across Europe is fun.

 

[e30ftw]

backpacking from hostel to hostel awesome when I was 18 totally unsupervised and newly introduced to trance music and bier gartens.

now I prefer roller bags and hotel rooms..

 

[jeffk805dent]

SF and LA are large subareas and compensation will vary widely.

Private groups and groups like CEP can clear 400k/yr which adjusted for COL is like 250k elsewhere.

Kaiser pays ~$275k yr for ~140 hrs/mo with good benefits.

I'm sure you can find some saturated employee job for $130 / hr if you looked as well which is pretty crappy.

<--- EM resident who just got done with the job search and went to med school in California

thank you very much for the reply.

So if I'm not mistaken EM physicians work 36-40 much like dentists. So like the issue of back pain for dentists which is part of the reason why they dont work more 40 hours, is the issue of irregular sleep schedule enough to make a EM physician say "no thanks" if offered to work more than 40 hours?

 

[e30ftw]

thank you very much for the reply.

So if I'm not mistaken EM physicians work 36-40 much like dentists. So like the issue of back pain for dentists which is part of the reason why they dont work more 40 hours, is the issue of irregular sleep schedule enough to make a EM physician say "no thanks" if offered to work more than 40 hours?

yeah circadian rhythm disruption and hectic nature of the work makes it unsustainable at regular physician hours (50+) which is fine by me.

FT at most groups/CMGs is around 120 hrs clinical.

Of course I know several attendings here who still work 50 hrs a week after 20 years in the field, which at $200/hr adds up to a large number.

They tend to have large houses and multiple children in private schools.

 

[fancymylotus]

ditto. but motorcycling across Europe is fun.

I think you meant to say fancy hotel hopping across Europe is fun

 

[jeffk805dent]

yeah circadian rhythm disruption and hectic nature of the work makes it unsustainable at regular physician hours (50+) which is fine by me.

FT at most groups/CMGs is around 120 hrs clinical.

Of course I know several attendings here who still work 50 hrs a week after 20 years in the field, which at $200/hr adds up to a large number.

They tend to have large houses and multiple children in private schools.

is it 120 hrs clinical and 20 hours of administrative work? or just 120 hrs altogether.

Regardless, EM seems like a good gig, I know its not for everyone but unless if med school students are picky seems like EM has the best of everything, could easily pay off loans with the figures you just mentioned. Dont know why its not considered a lifestyle specialty.

 

[e30ftw]

my contract is for 120 hrs minimum but will likely be around 140hrs/month which is all clinical.

Most contracts will give you a minimum number of hours so you can plan a budget, however you end up working different hours every month due to shift schedules.

I think EM is awesome and would not do anything else. There are downsides to any job but the medicine (ie, procedures, reading ekgs/radiography/ct, variety) is awesome and you don't have overhead or own anything so you just show up, work and get your paycheck.

 

[famoussquamous]

lol trust funds? alright. I'm glad we established the only people in their 20s outside of medicine are the following
a) trust fund babies
b) unemployed
c) working a dead end job
d) working an internship


seriously you guys can't even entertain the thought that there are other careers out there besides medicine which actually have decent salaries and certainly a better work/play balance. read a-d again and tell me you expect me to take you seriously

It's interesting you keep saying this yet haven't posted ONE example of what you consider "enjoying your 20s."

 

[PL198]

getting a masters in engineering or business and making money while also having free time? are you that short sighted where you truly think you either a) piss away your 20s partying b) work super duper hard in a medical program

the false dichotomies are insane

 

[fancymylotus]

I have plenty of friends that were DDS by age 24-25 and moved to a state that didn't require a residency for licensure and were making relatively good money shortly thereafter..