Which specialty allows you to have a more balanced life?

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PL198 said:
getting a masters in engineering or business and making money while also having free time? are you that short sighted where you truly think you either a) piss away your 20s partying b) work super duper hard in a medical program

the false dichotomies are insane
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Most of those engineers probably had less free time than premeds in college, and a MBA usually comes with work experience i.e. being the low man on the totem poll for several years first.

fancymylotus said:
In fact, my jerk ex was done at 24, graduated before NY passed its residency law, and has been working ever since.
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The point I was trying to make was that very rarely do people just go straight from undergrad into the workforce. Your ex started early but he still had 4 years of school post bac.
 
famoussquamous said:
Most of those engineers probably had less free time than premeds in college, and a MBA usually comes with work experience i.e. being the low man on the totem poll for several years first.



The point I was trying to make was that very rarely do people just go straight from undergrad into the workforce. Your ex started early but he still had 4 years of school post bac.
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Yeah. He had a late birthday and did a seven yr program.

Though I was done at 25 and working at 26...I wasted all my good years in school. Sniffle ;(
 
careers other than MD that come to mind with good pay

DDS/DMD
accounting (after a 4-5 year slaving, move to private and make good money)
engineering (petroleum is probably taking a hit with all the oil prices and influx of grads moving in)
actuary (exams are incredibly tough)

*two things: some of these careers require you to be in a pricey city which might irritate some and reduce the amount of savings one would like to have, plus good pay is subjective considering some posters had mommy and daddy do all the ass-wiping for them.
 
jeffk805dent said:
careers other than MD that come to mind with good pay

DDS/DMD
accounting (after a 4-5 year slaving, move to private and make good money)
engineering (petroleum is probably taking a hit with all the oil prices and influx of grads moving in)
actuary (exams are incredibly tough)

*two things: some of these careers require you to be in a pricey city which might irritate some and reduce the amount of savings one would like to have, plus good pay is subjective considering some posters had mommy and daddy do all the ass-wiping for them.
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HAY. I made it all on my own!
 
Totally joking. Plus if I was my own boss I wouldn't work Saturdays therefore limiting my alcohol intake on Friday to a sucky two glasses of rose. f my l
 
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jeffk805dent said:
careers other than MD that come to mind with good pay

DDS/DMD
accounting (after a 4-5 year slaving, move to private and make good money)
engineering (petroleum is probably taking a hit with all the oil prices and influx of grads moving in)
actuary (exams are incredibly tough)

*two things: some of these careers require you to be in a pricey city which might irritate some and reduce the amount of savings one would like to have, plus good pay is subjective considering some posters had mommy and daddy do all the ass-wiping for them.
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Contrast that with medicine which you are free to live pretty much wherever (and the "cheapest" places pay more money). Plus you need extra schooling usually for the accounting, DDS/DMD, and actuary.
 
famoussquamous said:
Contrast that with medicine which you are free to live pretty much wherever (and the "cheapest" places pay more money). Plus you need extra schooling usually for the accounting, DDS/DMD, and actuary.
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DMD/DDS is 4 years (or 3 if you're at UOP), no residency for general dentists and some special cases can be done with sufficient CE credits instead of residency or a certificate program

most markets do indeed ask for a Masters in Accounting (most can be done in 1 year, 1.5 if you're a slacker)

Actuary, to my knowledge requires no degree but rather incredibly sharp mathematical skills that few can muster

Cheapest places offer the most money but do you really think most young people really want to live out in the boonies after slaving hard work at medical school and residency. Some might, but others are blind if they think they can adjust from a major city life to a rural city life just with the snap of a finger
 
PL198 said:
not to mention your definition of fun is drinking/doing drugs, backpacking across europe and going " yolo style"

god forbid just watching a movie with friends, going out to dinner, cooking a nice meal or anything like that
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If you can't do these things in med school, you're doing it wrong.
 
PL198 said:
not to mention your definition of fun is drinking/doing drugs, backpacking across europe and going " yolo style"

god forbid just watching a movie with friends, going out to dinner, cooking a nice meal or anything like that
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The reason why the backpacking stuff was brought up was because you stated that you were sacrificing your 20's you can do that stuff now and why does this activity make your 20's so special? You make alright money in residency 50k and a decent six figure salary as an attending. If it is not another professional school I would have a hard time finding a 50k job out of college and i could expect to work 50+ hours a week with no advancement in sight.

At engineering. Engineering is difficult just because you did well in calc 2 doesn't mean that you'll exceed in engineering.A good engineering school is very, very difficult and time intensive.Not all engineering fields have the same employability.Also due to the skewed gender ration women may have a harder time in the workplace.

Here is what a grad from who recently gets his BS in engineering.

Florida cross-references employer payroll data (required by law) with the SSNs of recent graduates from the public state university system and then produces this report. These are "normal" schools in a medium-sized market with a roughly average cost of living. Here's what we see for people who graduated with a BS in CS in 2011-2012 (for all schools combined):

  • Average salary is $52-53k
  • A very substantial majority remain close to home, so to speak: 65% are employed locally (within the state) and 18% pursue additional schooling locally: 83% remain in Florida and are accounted for one way or another. 17% leave the state or are unemployed.
  • There's very little variation in salary between schools: disregarding the two outliers, there's just $3200/year between the highest and the lowest.
  • The numbers don't change much if you add Computer Engineering graduates (it looks like UF passes most of theirs students through an engineering curriculum; I'm not familiar with the programs so I don't actually know) to the mix.

Here's the methodology: http://www.fldoe.org/fetpip/method.asp

Masters in business? You need to go to a good school and work your but off to make good connections you will be working pretty hard even to make 60k,
 
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Slack3r said:
If you can't do these things in med school, you're doing it wrong.
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True, you can do those stuff, but ideally weekly or daily would be sweet. I hate being one of those people that works and just comes home to watch netflix, that is such a waste of life, I try to use my free time to stay away from home as much as possible...
 
KnuxNole said:
True, you can do those stuff, but ideally weekly or daily would be sweet. I hate being one of those people that works and just comes home to watch netflix, that is such a waste of life, I try to use my free time to stay away from home as much as possible...
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exactly.. not sure why this concept is hard to get. it's like people deluding themselves into thinking their choice was absolutely the best one far and away, by even refusing to acknowledge alternatives.
 
Brigade4Radiant said:
The reason why the backpacking stuff was brought up was because you stated that you were sacrificing your 20's you can do that stuff now and why does this activity make your 20's so special? You make alright money in residency 50k and a decent six figure salary as an attending. If it is not another professional school I would have a hard time finding a 50k job out of college and i could expect to work 50+ hours a week with no advancement in sight.

At engineering. Engineering is difficult just because you did well in calc 2 doesn't mean that you'll exceed in engineering.A good engineering school is very, very difficult and time intensive.Not all engineering fields have the same employability.Also due to the skewed gender ration women may have a harder time in the workplace.

Here is what a grad from who recently gets his BS in engineering.

Florida cross-references employer payroll data (required by law) with the SSNs of recent graduates from the public state university system and then produces this report. These are "normal" schools in a medium-sized market with a roughly average cost of living. Here's what we see for people who graduated with a BS in CS in 2011-2012 (for all schools combined):

  • Average salary is $52-53k
  • A very substantial majority remain close to home, so to speak: 65% are employed locally (within the state) and 18% pursue additional schooling locally: 83% remain in Florida and are accounted for one way or another. 17% leave the state or are unemployed.
  • There's very little variation in salary between schools: disregarding the two outliers, there's just $3200/year between the highest and the lowest.
  • The numbers don't change much if you add Computer Engineering graduates (it looks like UF passes most of theirs students through an engineering curriculum; I'm not familiar with the programs so I don't actually know) to the mix.

Here's the methodology: http://www.fldoe.org/fetpip/method.asp

Masters in business? You need to go to a good school and work your but off to make good connections you will be working pretty hard even to make 60k,
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except if you're dedicated enough to get into med school, your undergrad is probably going to free and any grad program you do in engineering will literally pay you. not to mention, any loans they have, wouldn't have 7 % interest and wouldn't have the interest capitalizing immediately. there's about 100 more factors that favor the engineer in this scenario. compound interest is powerful.
 
And there are a LOT of people who enter the workforce after undergrad...not everyone goes to grad or professional school...and those people aren't scraping by with a min. wage job or having no life, they are LIVING. IT. UP.
 
KnuxNole said:
And there are a LOT of people who enter the workforce after undergrad...not everyone goes to grad or professional school...and those people aren't scraping by with a min. wage job or having no life, they are LIVING. IT. UP.
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Ok, your admittedly wealthy friends aside, most people in their 20s are not "living it up" anymore than anyone in med school.

All my non-med friends are working jobs they kinda hate making like $50k. Sure, they go to the bar on Thursday, but then again, so did me and all my med school friends during the preclinical years. We've been on trips, gone out, generally "lived it up" while still being in med school.

Stop acting like medical school is some all-consuming, soul-crushing endeavor. It's not, and suggesting otherwise makes you look like a whiny, out-of-touch child.
 
Slack3r said:
Ok, your admittedly wealthy friends aside, most people in their 20s are not "living it up" anymore than anyone in med school.

All my non-med friends are working jobs they kinda hate making like $50k. Sure, they go to the bar on Thursday, but then again, so did me and all my med school friends during the preclinical years. We've been on trips, gone out, generally "lived it up" while still being in med school.

Stop acting like medical school is some all-consuming, soul-crushing endeavor. It's not, and suggesting otherwise makes you look like a whiny, out-of-touch child.
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no it's so easy, we should be super duper thankful we're in this position. you sound like one of those people that is a resident and says step 1 was easy
 
PL198 said:
no it's so easy, we should be super duper thankful we're in this position. you sound like one of those people that is a resident and says step 1 was easy
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I'm not saying you have to wake up every morning and praise the lord that you were given the privilege to attend medical school. You're allowed to complain, and yes, certain parts of medical school can be tiring and difficult. I understand that, and I've probably done my fair share of bitching too.

But to climb up on your high horse and act like you're some martyr because you "sacrificed your 20s" to learn a skill that will eventually pay you 3-4x/year what your college-educated friends make is downright ridiculous. Medical students (or doctors in general) do not have a monopoly on hard work or long hours.

Oh, and step 1 WAS easy.
 
Slack3r said:
I'm not saying you have to wake up every morning and praise the lord that you were given the privilege to attend medical school. You're allowed to complain, and yes, certain parts of medical school can be tiring and difficult. I understand that, and I've probably done my fair share of bitching too.

But to climb up on your high horse and act like you're some martyr because you "sacrificed your 20s" to learn a skill that will eventually pay you 3-4x/year what your college-educated friends make is downright ridiculous. Medical students (or doctors in general) do not have a monopoly on hard work or long hours.

Oh, and step 1 WAS easy.
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I know right? I studied for like five seconds and got a 260.
 
Slack3r said:
I'm not saying you have to wake up every morning and praise the lord that you were given the privilege to attend medical school. You're allowed to complain, and yes, certain parts of medical school can be tiring and difficult. I understand that, and I've probably done my fair share of bitching too.

But to climb up on your high horse and act like you're some martyr because you "sacrificed your 20s" to learn a skill that will eventually pay you 3-4x/year what your college-educated friends make is downright ridiculous. Medical students (or doctors in general) do not have a monopoly on hard work or long hours.

Oh, and step 1 WAS easy.
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Not being a martyr at all. Has absolutely nothing to do with some superiority(I'm literally the last one to play that card, I think it's a service, just like getting your oil changed), just think there are other professions that have work/play advantages compared to medicine while maintaining a good/better ROI. You make it sound like the best anyone can do with a bachelors or masters is 50-100k a year. Which isn't true, but again, compound interest is very powerful.
 
Slack3r said:
I'm not saying you have to wake up every morning and praise the lord that you were given the privilege to attend medical school. You're allowed to complain, and yes, certain parts of medical school can be tiring and difficult. I understand that, and I've probably done my fair share of bitching too.

But to climb up on your high horse and act like you're some martyr because you "sacrificed your 20s" to learn a skill that will eventually pay you 3-4x/year what your college-educated friends make is downright ridiculous. Medical students (or doctors in general) do not have a monopoly on hard work or long hours.

Oh, and step 1 WAS easy.
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i get what you're saying and i agree to an extent but step 1 was not easy. it sucked hardcore
i'm already looking at the first years and wondering why they're struggling with anatomy and then i think back to when I was doing it and I remember how bad it was. made me nearly quit
 
fancymylotus said:
It is so not easy. 93 gas? Foods? Gym memberships? Pilates lessons? Maybe a pair of shooz or two? I cant even.
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Don't have a car that requires premium gas. Don't shop at Whole Foods. Run outside or go to a cheap gym like Planet Fitness. Watch free pilates videos on youtube. And with all that money you saved, you can buy yourself some shooz.

You make do with what you have.
 
KnuxNole said:
True, you can do those stuff, but ideally weekly or daily would be sweet. I hate being one of those people that works and just comes home to watch netflix, that is such a waste of life, I try to use my free time to stay away from home as much as possible...
Click to expand...

You don't feel like you can watch a move with friends, cook a nice meal, or go out to dinner at least on a weekly basis? I mean I'm only an M1, but I feel like I get to do stuff like this multiple times a week. Not to mention being able to go out with friends to grab some beers on a weekend pretty much every week.

Not trying to insinuate you're doing it wrong, I'm just genuinely curious as to how many people feel like they can't do stuff like this on a regular basis.... I don't know how I'd get through school otherwise.
 
rodmichael82 said:
I have no idea why people think EM is a good lifestyle. While I understand EM docs work "40 hours". The shift work especially at a busy hospital man those 40 hours are pretty brutal. The next day "off" turns out to be a recovery day.
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Not true. Some shifts are soul sucking, but many are not bad.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Also:
-Live close to the hospital. My car is a 2008 and I still have less than 35K miles on it. Makes gas go a long way...I only have to fill up on average about once a month. Also helps with your car insurance plan.
-Subsidized food budget. About 2/3 of my meals (breakfast and lunch 6 days/wk) and all of my coffee/snacks get covered by our food/call stipend. Makes it easy to buy whatever I want for the other 1/3 of my meals
-School/hospital gym, or I can get a hospital discount at the local gym. Lots of options for cheap fitness. You don't have to pay $30 per class for pure barre or barry's bootcamp or some fad like that.

Bottom line - I had no issues living on my intern salary, and actually put away a good chunk of it into savings. I bought the clothes I wanted, bought the foods and booze I wanted, went out to dinner where I felt like, and had money for a nice vacation. I wasn't driving a mercedes and buying ferragamos (male equivalent of jimmy choos), but I was meeting all my needs as a single person on a pretty nice standard of living.
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to pile on:
-shop at Ross
-cut down on the nightclubs and if you must go out for social venues, go to a bar
-if you must buy a luxury car, buy a used luxury car that has been driven under 20k miles
-dont buy expensive art, which is mostly likely to be unknown to most people
-eat at Chipotle, not Cheesecake Factory
 
pd1112 said:
I've never understood the "I could never wake up that early" argument or similar. You do it because you have to and within a month or less, you're wired that way. It's no longer a burden and you eventually don't even need an alarm.



Lol'd in bed and woke up significant other. Just wanted to say props.
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I had to be up for work at 5 for over 6 years and I never adjusted. Some people's internal clocks aren't as flexible as others.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Ew no.



I eat at chipotle from time to time, but I'm unclear why the Cheesecake Factory is the alternative. I'd have to be paid to eat there.

When I go out to eat I go somewhere nice. Not like French Laundry nice, but actual good local food, not chain restaurant grossness.
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what happened? someone defecate on your favorite dress/pants you wanted to buy there. LOL. Its not like Factory 2-U where all the clothes are on the ground.


That would be cool if Cheesecake Factory paid people to eat. Might be a bigger disaster than when Red Lobster offered all you can eat lobster in 2003.

You would be surprised that some people think going to Cheesecake Factory is the only restaurant to eat (and also for status purposes).

So what's a quality restaurant in your opinion. Mine's definitely not Taco Bell.
 
fancymylotus said:
Backpacking across Europe?! That does not sound fun.
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It's actually ridiculously fun, but only if you're okay with not staying in luxury hotels. You meet awesome people, do awesome things, and generally get to haphazardly wander wherever you want. You can see pretty much ever country and so much history in two months and party harder than the law allows in America. I wouldn't recommend it for people that enjoy having set schedules during their vacation, nor for those who view a vacation as a time to just lay around and be lazy in the sun- it's an adventure, not a vacation.
 
Mad Jack said:
It's actually ridiculously fun, but only if you're okay with not staying in luxury hotels. You meet awesome people, do awesome things, and generally get to haphazardly wander wherever you want. You can see pretty much ever country and so much history in two months and party harder than the law allows in America. I wouldn't recommend it for people that enjoy having set schedules during their vacation, nor for those who view a vacation as a time to just lay around and be lazy in the sun- it's an adventure, not a vacation.
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so its nothing like the movie Eurotrip?
 
KinasePro said:
One month of actual experience as an M4 is plenty for me to make a judgement on the field's lifestyle. I wasn't in some sleepy small town ER, it was a major urban level 1. Still not seeing why everyone is so soggy about the lifestyle. 35-40 hours a week in discrete shifts is pretty sweet for any job in medicine, regardless of the shift timing.
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Most people think about it in the short term. They aren't looking at how they'll feel about it when they're 45 with a couple of kids, still working the night shift and holidays. Or when they're 55, still working the night shift and holidays, flipping from days to nights with only one day in between, despite their body's fading ability to adjust to alternating sleep patterns. Rotating shift work will literally kill you. It sucks the life out of you. Throw high liability, high physiological and psychological stress, and the management bull**** and surveys that ED physicians have to deal with, and it's no wonder that 60% of emergency physicians suffer from moderate to high levels of burnout and one in four completely leaves the field within 10 years.
 
Slack3r said:
Ok, your admittedly wealthy friends aside, most people in their 20s are not "living it up" anymore than anyone in med school.

All my non-med friends are working jobs they kinda hate making like $50k. Sure, they go to the bar on Thursday, but then again, so did me and all my med school friends during the preclinical years. We've been on trips, gone out, generally "lived it up" while still being in med school.

Stop acting like medical school is some all-consuming, soul-crushing endeavor. It's not, and suggesting otherwise makes you look like a whiny, out-of-touch child.
Click to expand...

Right, I guess I was envious for wanting to go out 6-7 days. Oh well, lol

For residency, I'm trying to push for going out 5 to 6 times a week, and vacations every chance, ideally I'd like several month long vacations....
 
Slack3r said:
Ok, your admittedly wealthy friends aside, most people in their 20s are not "living it up" anymore than anyone in med school.

All my non-med friends are working jobs they kinda hate making like $50k. Sure, they go to the bar on Thursday, but then again, so did me and all my med school friends during the preclinical years. We've been on trips, gone out, generally "lived it up" while still being in med school.

Stop acting like medical school is some all-consuming, soul-crushing endeavor. It's not, and suggesting otherwise makes you look like a whiny, out-of-touch child.
Click to expand...
My life as a medical student is substantially more stressful and difficult than the time I spent just working. A lot of the people I know are in healthcare (nurses, RTs, PTs), working 3 12s a week and pulling in 70k/year with four days off per week. The PAs and NPs make even more to start for the same schedule. And don't even get me started on the CRNAs that start at $75/hr, get shift differentials and OT, and have a base schedule of 3 12s.With 4 days off per week (I actually had 5 days off per week, since I just worked a 12 and a 16) and 4 weeks of paid vacation a year, life is awesome. And that's neglecting the fact that when you're off, you're off, while in medical school, there's always a test coming up, always something to worry about when you're home. Even my non-HC friends all have jobs that let them actually relax when they get home, and enjoy time with their families and hobbies, rather than studying or worrying about this or that upcoming test, or having to fit in ECs like research and volunteering and the like in their off time.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Also:
-Live close to the hospital. My car is a 2008 and I still have less than 35K miles on it. Makes gas go a long way...I only have to fill up on average about once a month. Also helps with your car insurance plan.
-Subsidized food budget. About 2/3 of my meals (breakfast and lunch 6 days/wk) and all of my coffee/snacks get covered by our food/call stipend. Makes it easy to buy whatever I want for the other 1/3 of my meals
-School/hospital gym, or I can get a hospital discount at the local gym. Lots of options for cheap fitness. You don't have to pay $30 per class for pure barre or barry's bootcamp or some fad like that.

Bottom line - I had no issues living on my intern salary, and actually put away a good chunk of it into savings. I bought the clothes I wanted, bought the foods and booze I wanted, went out to dinner where I felt like, and had money for a nice vacation. I wasn't driving a mercedes and buying ferragamos (male equivalent of jimmy choos), but I was meeting all my needs as a single person on a pretty nice standard of living.
Click to expand...

I guess I should have prefaced my previous statements with a disclaimer of sorts but I figured most people on here had already realized that my "standard of living" involves me being in lala land most of the time. Thankfully my salary can support that, I guess.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Ew no.



I eat at chipotle from time to time, but I'm unclear why the Cheesecake Factory is the alternative. I'd have to be paid to eat there.

When I go out to eat I go somewhere nice. Not like French Laundry nice, but actual good local food, not chain restaurant grossness.
Click to expand...


The French laundry is one of the few things I like about CA. Hrmph.

Cheesecake Factory is overrated

Chipotle dumps cilantro on everything so I refuse to eat there


Then again, my mother does have this nasty habit of figuring out what office I'm working at and "dropping by" with chai and lunch most days...aggravating
 
Mad Jack said:
Most people think about it in the short term. They aren't looking at how they'll feel about it when they're 45 with a couple of kids, still working the night shift and holidays. Or when they're 55, still working the night shift and holidays, flipping from days to nights with only one day in between, despite their body's fading ability to adjust to alternating sleep patterns. Rotating shift work will literally kill you. It sucks the life out of you. Throw high liability, high physiological and psychological stress, and the management bull**** and surveys that ED physicians have to deal with, and it's no wonder that 60% of emergency physicians suffer from moderate to high levels of burnout and one in four completely leaves the field within 10 years.
Click to expand...

The bold is the problem, not that 1 month is not enough time to figure it out like others are suggesting. You have plenty of time to reflect on this and speak with EM docs in their 40's and 50's while you rotate. And after all the whining and tears shed for working that night shift on christmas eve, you're still working far fewer hours than most fields in medicine.

The ED docs at one of our hospitals work 3 12 hr shifts per week. There are things to whine about in EM, but lifestyle isn't one of them.
 
fancymylotus said:
The French laundry is one of the few things I like about CA. Hrmph.

Cheesecake Factory is overrated

Chipotle dumps cilantro on everything so I refuse to eat there


Then again, my mother does have this nasty habit of figuring out what office I'm working at and "dropping by" with chai and lunch most days...aggravating
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As a brown guy there is nothing better than having chai in the morning, goes well with a crepe.

I think you can ask chipotle to have cilantro-free rice if I'm not mistaken.
 
KinasePro said:
The bold is the problem, not that 1 month is not enough time to figure it out like others are suggesting. You have plenty of time to reflect on this and speak with EM docs in their 40's and 50's while you rotate. And after all the whining and tears shed for working that night shift on christmas eve, you're still working far fewer hours than most fields in medicine.

The ED docs at one of our hospitals work 3 12 hr shifts per week. There are things to whine about in EM, but lifestyle isn't one of them.
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what about pay and job market? (or does that fall under lifestyle)
 
jeffk805dent said:
has it ever occurred to you that not all brown people are Hindu/Muslim have the name Raj or Neel and can be Christian and have names like Jeff. lol

it should mind brown, not mind blown
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Shots fired
 
Most people think about it in the short term. They aren't looking at how they'll feel about it when they're 45 with a couple of kids, still working the night shift and holidays. Or when they're 55, still working the night shift and holidays, flipping from days to nights with only one day in between, despite their body's fading ability to adjust to alternating sleep patterns. Rotating shift work will literally kill you. It sucks the life out of you. Throw high liability, high physiological and psychological stress, and the management bull**** and surveys that ED physicians have to deal with, and it's no wonder that 60% of emergency physicians suffer from moderate to high levels of burnout and one in four completely leaves the field within 10 years.
Click to expand...

You think you can predict how America is going to be 20 years from now? When you are 45 or 55 you can get your night shifts stacked take a week off and do the rest of your shifts or work 6 shifts a month and make the same amount as a pediatrician. You deal with this stuff all the time and its not like regular doctors get a sound sleep. Even pediatricians get woken up at odd hours of the night and they have to work the next day. The staffing at night means that you can work from hospital to hospital. Only a day off between your night and day shifts? Where are you working? Keep in mind doctors in other fields sometimes have to stay very late and get back in the morning early. OBGYN, Cards, CC, Neonatology, Surgery, Ortho, Peds, IM, Anes, True primary care and Rads work nights and call. It is all relative.

Or you can do urgent care and not deal with the stresses of primary care.
 
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