Which Top 20 schools are pass/fail?

[mariambaby3]

Which of the USNWR Top 20 Research category schools grade their students on an exclusively pass/fail system with no internal rankings during the pre-clinical years?

Does this make it harder for residency program directors to distinguish between good and bad students from those schools?

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[BrCo]

Schools don't care about preclinical grades. It's all about Step 1 and clerkship grades. In fact, I'm pretty sure Yale doesn't even grade you in clerkships. Cornell and Harvard also true P/F. That's all I got.

Which of the USNWR Top 20 Research category schools grade their students on an exclusively pass/fail system with no internal rankings during the pre-clinical years?

Does this make it harder for residency program directors to distinguish between good and bad students from those schools?

 

[road2md]

Add UCSF to the list.

Does not make it harder. More top 20 schools are moving toward straight P/F system. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4083104/

 

[mehc012]

Add UCSF to the list.

Does not make it harder. More top 20 schools are moving toward straight P/F system. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4083104/

I know, makes me sad...I would definitely choose a graded program over P/F, all other things being equal. I know myself too well to presume that I would get as much out of a program with more wiggle room. Fortunately, given my gpa, I have no call to be concerned about the systems in place at top 20 institutions

 

[JPA178]

Hopkins is straight P/F.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I know, makes me sad...I would definitely choose a graded program over P/F, all other things being equal. I know myself too well to presume that I would get as much out of a program with more wiggle room. Fortunately, given my gpa, I have no call to be concerned about the systems in place at top 20 institutions

I beg to differ
Although, I'll have to wait until next year for you to prove me right

 

[Scribblers]

Pass/fail grading for preclinical years is more the rule rather than the exception for this caliber of school. The only schools that still do grading off the top of my head are WashU, Penn (after the first few blocks), and maybe 1-2 others. I'm not really up to speed on which pass/fail schools still do some form of ranking, but I'd guess it's probably not that many.

 

[DermViser]

Which of the USNWR Top 20 Research category schools grade their students on an exclusively pass/fail system with no internal rankings during the pre-clinical years?

Does this make it harder for residency program directors to distinguish between good and bad students from those schools?

http://anastomosed.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/preclinical-passfail/

 

[DermViser]

Hopkins is straight P/F.

With no internal rankings?

 

[CrimsonKing]

UMich is true P/F w/o internal ranking for the first two years.

AOA and ranking are purely based on clinical grades.

 

[JPA178]

With no internal rankings?

As far as I know, yes, they don't do internal rankings. The school does have a reputation for being very hierarchical, but they are getting much more progressive in terms of education. The vast majority of attendings I've met have been extremely nice, approachable, and down-to-earth - contrary to what you might sometimes hear.

 

[DermViser]

As far as I know, yes, they don't do internal rankings. The school does have a reputation for being very hierarchical, but they are getting much more progressive in terms of education. The vast majority of attendings I've met have been extremely nice, approachable, and down-to-earth - contrary to what you might sometimes hear.

I've heard quite a bit of attendings at Hopkins are old school. I knew Hopkins was P/F in the first 2 years but didn't know if they did internal rankings. I don't know how collegial and collaborative the student body actually is.

 

[DermViser]

UMich is true P/F w/o internal ranking for the first two years.

AOA and ranking are purely based on clinical grades.

1. Harvard University - NO: http://hms.harvard.edu/departments/...tion-and-policies/203-grading-and-examination
2. Stanford University - YES: http://med.stanford.edu/md/curriculum/assessment-grading.html
3. Johns Hopkins University - NO: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pass-fail-schools.926253/#post-12700616
4. University of California—San Francisco - YES: http://meded.ucsf.edu/ume/essential-core-assessment-and-grading-policy
5. University of Pennsylvania (Perelman) - NO: http://www.med.upenn.edu/admiss/curriculum2.html
6. Washington University in St. Louis - NO: http://bulletinoftheschoolofmedicine.wustl.edu/policies/mdprogram/Pages/GradingSystem.aspx
7. Yale University - YES: http://medicine.yale.edu/education/admissions/education/yalesystem.aspx
8. Columbia University - YES: http://ps.columbia.edu/ps/education/academic-progress-promotion
9. Duke University - : http://www.dukedavisoncouncil.org/?page_id=1363
10. University of Washington - YES: http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/documents/md-program/Student-Handbook.pdf
11. University of Chicago (Pritzker) -YES: https://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/faq.shtml
12. University of California—Los Angeles (Geffen) - YES: http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/offices/sao/clinical/GradingStudentEvaluations.cfm, http://alphaomegaalpha.org/ucla_chapter_info.html
13. University of Michigan—Ann Arbor - YES: http://www.med.umich.edu/lrc/medcurriculum/curriculum/grading.html
14. University of California—San Diego - YES: http://senate.ucsd.edu/manual/Regulations/SDRegulation503.pdf
15. Cornell University (Weill) - YES: http://weill.cornell.edu/education/curriculum/first/hum_str_stu.html
16. Vanderbilt University - YES: https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/student-affairs/grading-policy
17. University of Pittsburgh - NO: http://www.omed.pitt.edu/curriculum/ms-1.php, http://www.omed.pitt.edu/curriculum/ms-2.php
18. Northwestern University (Feinberg) - NO: http://www.feinberg.northwestern.ed...ormation/awards-honors/alpha-omega-alpha.html
19. Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai - YES: http://icahn.mssm.edu/static_files/MSSM/Files/Education/Student Resources/Student Handbooks/Student Handbooks 2013/Grading System.pdf
20. New York University - NO: http://school.med.nyu.edu/studentsf...ducation/curriculum/curriculum-stages/stage-1; http://webdoc.nyumc.org/school2/files/school2/Alpha_Omega_Alpha_Medical_Honor_Society.pdf

 

[DermViser]

Yes as in P/F with no internal ranking? Because if so at least one of those is incorrect...and if I'm remembering the MSPE's I've read the past couple of years correctly, more like 1/3 are incorrect

Yes - P/F with no internal ranking. Which ones are incorrect? UCLA has "Letters with Distinction" but they don't mean jack squat in the first 2 years.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Yes - P/F with no internal ranking. Which ones are incorrect? UCLA has "Letters with Distinction" but they don't mean jack squat in the first 2 years.

The one I went to is incorrect

 

[DermViser]

The one I went to is incorrect

Yes, I think I know which one.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Yes, I think I know which one.

Well that's just creepy

 

[DermViser]

Well that's just creepy

LOL. Not from your posts, but in digging a little deeper about the school (see above, work in progress)

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

LOL. Not from your posts, but in digging a little deeper about the school (see above, work in progress)

If it's the one you changed from when I quoted you to your edits, then my anonymity is preserved...

 

[DermViser]

If it's the one you changed from when I quoted you to your edits, then my anonymity is preserved...

Not that one. I stand by my new answers.

 

[hoihaie]

UCSD is true P/F with no internal rankings

 

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Maybe a little off topic, but it seems like switching to true P/F will limit opportunities for students in lower ranked schools. It more or less eliminates the possibility of a student from a top school not getting a top residency. So everyone at top schools would be assumed average for that school +/- their Step 1 and LORs (and more prestigious LORs from better schools). Now even those students who did just well enough to pass are looking better than students from other schools with higher performance. It's the medical school equivalent of limited class mobility . That's a little extreme to say of course, but it puts a lot of pressure on medical school admissions. Since residency is such a big deal, the less they discriminate based on ability in med school, the more your actions from the ages 18-22 decide your career opportunities. I don't know if I like the sound of that.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Not that one. I stand by my new answers.

Still wrong!

 

[DermViser]

Maybe a little off topic, but it seems like switching to true P/F will limit opportunities for students in lower ranked schools. It more or less eliminates the possibility of a student from a top school not getting a top residency. So everyone at top schools would be assumed average for that school +/- their Step 1 and LORs (and more prestigious LORs from better schools). Now even those students who did just well enough to pass are looking better than students from other schools with higher performance. It's the medical school equivalent of limited class mobility . That's a little extreme to say of course, but it puts a lot of pressure on medical school admissions. Since residency is such a big deal, the less they discriminate based on ability in med school, the more your actions from the ages 18-22 decide your career opportunities. I don't know if I like the sound of that.

You're obviously new here. Welcome to SDN! It won't limit opportunities bc MS-3 is still graded in several intervals to separate students usually H/HP/P/F or some variation of that. All 4 years are not Pass/Fail.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Maybe a little off topic, but it seems like switching to true P/F will limit opportunities for students in lower ranked schools. It more or less eliminates the possibility of a student from a top school not getting a top residency. So everyone at top schools would be assumed average for that school +/- their Step 1 and LORs (and more prestigious LORs from better schools). Now even those students who did just well enough to pass are looking better than students from other schools with higher performance. It's the medical school equivalent of limited class mobility . That's a little extreme to say of course, but it puts a lot of pressure on medical school admissions. Since residency is such a big deal, the less they discriminate based on ability in med school, the more your actions from the ages 18-22 decide your career opportunities. I don't know if I like the sound of that.

As Dermviser mentioned, very very few schools are true P/F for all four years, but rather only for the pre-clinical years.

From experience though, for the schools that are true P/F for all four years, it actually caused their application to be scrutinized to a greater degree, since it is much harder to differentiate them without having clinical performance clearly assessed. The subjective comments on their evaluations and LORs end up getting scrutinized more closely - trying to in essence read the tea leaves.

 

[DermViser]

Yes as in P/F with no internal ranking? Because if so at least one of those is incorrect...and if I'm remembering the MSPE's I've read the past couple of years correctly, more like 1/3 are incorrect

This is P/F in the first 2 years only, with no internal ranking, during those years only: so called "true" P/F.

 

[breakintheroof]

Thanks for this, DermViser. Very helpful and I hope it'll be its own post once complete.

Edit: Removed outdated information about the University of Washington.

 

[DermViser]

Still wrong!

Aarghh!!! So annoying esp. since I posted links as evidence! Oh well. I know Cornell's change was just this year I believe to "true" P/F as was was Vanderbilt's.

 

[DermViser]

Thanks for this, DermViser. Very helpful and I hope it'll be its own post once complete.

The University of Washington is H/P/F in the second year:

http://www.washington.edu/students/gencat/academic/school_medicine.html
"Grades awarded in each course in the MD curriculum are Pass or Fail in the first-year basic science curriculum; Honors, Pass, or Fail in the applied-science curriculum; and Honors, High Pass, Pass, or Fail in the clinical curriculum."

Oh, ok. Thanks for the find. Updated!

 

[ridethecliche]

I know, makes me sad...I would definitely choose a graded program over P/F, all other things being equal. I know myself too well to presume that I would get as much out of a program with more wiggle room. Fortunately, given my gpa, I have no call to be concerned about the systems in place at top 20 institutions

Just because things are pass/fail doesn't mean you don't get your scores on tests etc.

 

[DermViser]

From experience though, for the schools that are true P/F for all four years, it actually caused their application to be scrutinized to a greater degree, since it is much harder to differentiate them without having clinical performance clearly assessed. The subjective comments on their evaluations and LORs end up getting scrutinized more closely - trying to in essence read the tea leaves.

Yes, that's why even Stanford is no longer a "true" P/F system all 4 years like it used to be.

 

[Endure]

Vanderbilt is now P/F during years 1 and 2 (i.e., during pre-clinical and clinical years). This was revealed within the last two weeks. I suspect this has a lot to do with the immersion blocks during 3rd and 4th year, but I'm still a little unsure why they eliminated Honors from clerkships.

 

[DermViser]

Vanderbilt is now P/F during years 1 and 2 (i.e., during pre-clinical and clinical years). This was revealed within the last two weeks. I suspect this has a lot to do with the immersion blocks during 3rd and 4th year, but I'm still a little unsure why they eliminated Honors from clerkships.

So then what are you ranked on? Step 1 score?

 

[mehc012]

Just because things are pass/fail doesn't mean you don't get your scores on tests etc.

I know that...and I know myself. Giving me a P/F course is handing me just enough rope to hang myself. I would do it, and I would pass, but I would not learn as much, score as well, and I would be more stressed than otherwise.

 

[Narmerguy]

I know that...and I know myself. Giving me a P/F course is handing me just enough rope to hang myself. I would do it, and I would pass, but I would not learn as much, score as well, and I would be more stressed than otherwise.

Presumably the school sets the bar sufficiently high that a pass actually takes work and would make you appropriately prepared for your clinical training.

 

[mehc012]

Presumably the school sets the bar sufficiently high that a pass actually takes work and would make you appropriately prepared for your clinical training.

Oh sure...as I said, I'd be fine. But I would learn more and try harder if I had a more specific target to aim high for. Doing the bare minimum for an A and falling short leaves you with a 'B'. Doing the bare minimum to pass and falling short leaves you with a fail. Giving myself wiggle room like that increases the odds of procrastination by 85 bajillion percent, which means I will be doing more, poorer quality, last minute work. It is more stressful and less productive. I cram more (I am very good at cramming) and retain less, making Step studying likely to be worse as well.

This is just for me, conclusions drawn from my experiences with taking P/F courses, taking regular courses aiming for B or higher, and taking courses aiming for As. It also parallels my experience that I perform better, with better time management, higher grades, and better long term retention, in harder classes where there is more pressure.

Could I pump myself up and substitute for the motivation the grades provide? Yeah. But if I can pick a graded school, I will, because for me personally I would be happier, less stressed, and learn more.

 

[DermViser]

Oh sure...as I said, I'd be fine. But I would learn more and try harder if I had a more specific target to aim high for. Doing the bare minimum for an A and falling short leaves you with a 'B'. Doing the bare minimum to pass and falling short leaves you with a fail. Giving myself wiggle room like that increases the odds of procrastination by 85 bajillion percent, which means I will be doing more, poorer quality, last minute work. It is more stressful and less productive. I cram more (I am very good at cramming) and retain less, making Step studying likely to be worse as well.

This is just for me, conclusions drawn from my experiences with taking P/F courses, taking regular courses aiming for B or higher, and taking courses aiming for As. It also parallels my experience that I perform better, with better time management, higher grades, and better long term retention, in harder classes where there is more pressure.

Could I pump myself up and substitute for the motivation the grades provide? Yeah. But if I can pick a graded school, I will, because for me personally I would be happier, less stressed, and learn more.

P/F courses in undergrad are not similar to P/F courses in medical school.

Grades bring in the wrong incentives - studying to the professor made test and his/her emphasis, rather than studying to learn overall concepts. Step 1 questions are quite different than professor made questions.

 

[ridethecliche]

I know that...and I know myself. Giving me a P/F course is handing me just enough rope to hang myself. I would do it, and I would pass, but I would not learn as much, score as well, and I would be more stressed than otherwise.

Oh sure...as I said, I'd be fine. But I would learn more and try harder if I had a more specific target to aim high for. Doing the bare minimum for an A and falling short leaves you with a 'B'. Doing the bare minimum to pass and falling short leaves you with a fail. Giving myself wiggle room like that increases the odds of procrastination by 85 bajillion percent, which means I will be doing more, poorer quality, last minute work. It is more stressful and less productive. I cram more (I am very good at cramming) and retain less, making Step studying likely to be worse as well.

This is just for me, conclusions drawn from my experiences with taking P/F courses, taking regular courses aiming for B or higher, and taking courses aiming for As. It also parallels my experience that I perform better, with better time management, higher grades, and better long term retention, in harder classes where there is more pressure.

Could I pump myself up and substitute for the motivation the grades provide? Yeah. But if I can pick a graded school, I will, because for me personally I would be happier, less stressed, and learn more.

If going to schools that foster more of a 'gunner' mentality appeals to you, then sure, go for it.

Also, if you're interested in medical school and want to learn just enough to get by in your classes, then your mentality is totally wrong. This isn't going to be like undergrad. You should probably stop thinking anything similar applies.

 

[mehc012]

If going to schools that foster more of a 'gunner' mentality appeals to you, then sure, go for it.

Also, if you're interested in medical school and want to learn just enough to get by in your classes, then your mentality is totally wrong. This isn't going to be like undergrad. You should probably stop thinking anything similar applies.

Actually, I do not want to learn just enough to get by. That's why I would prefer a graded system; more motivation to keep pushing for more. I also happen to know that I am happier when under more pressure. The more free time I have, the less I actually get done. I am more likely to go above and beyond and do extra work when the baseline is high.
This is also largely inspired by browsing the Allo forums...the number of times 'P=MD' is thrown around, the number of times people advocate doing what is needed to get by and then not worrying about coursework...THAT is what made me first start thinking about this. The minimum effort bit was planted there.

If other people want to be gunners, that's their problem. I am not and never have been - heck, I uploaded my entire MCAT Anki deck on here for anyone to use (though I still question the utility of using someone else's questions rather than making your own). What appeals to me about doing well is not actually the grades themselves, but what I learn and the confidence that comes with knowing things really, really well. I am not concerned about being able to do so through my own efforts - no need to trash others on the way.

 

[DermViser]

Actually, I do not want to learn just enough to get by. That's why I would prefer a graded system; more motivation to keep pushing for more. I also happen to know that I am happier when under more pressure. The more free time I have, the less I actually get done. I am more likely to go above and beyond and do extra work when the baseline is high.
This is also largely inspired by browsing the Allo forums...the number of times 'P=MD' is thrown around, the number of times people advocate doing what is needed to get by and then not worrying about coursework...THAT is what made me first start thinking about this. The minimum effort bit was planted there.

If other people want to be gunners, that's their problem. I am not and never have been - heck, I uploaded my entire MCAT Anki deck on here for anyone to use (though I still question the utility of using someone else's questions rather than making your own). What appeals to me about doing well is not actually the grades themselves, but what I learn and the confidence that comes with knowing things really, really well. I am not concerned about being able to do so through my own efforts - no need to trash others on the way.

No one has advocated P=MD in Allo. Esp. not in this match environment.

 

[mehc012]

No one has advocated P=MD in Allo. Esp. not in this match environment.

Bull. I'd never so much as heard that phrase before I came here. Granted, I haven't spent much time on there in the past year (most of my digging was at the beginning when I was trying to decide whether to take the plunge), so maybe it has suddenly, miraculously changed.

As to your laughing at the bolded, I don't know what to tell you. Those things are just true. There's not even anything to argue there, because you really don't have any perspective on my enjoyment/motivation under differing circumstances. Feel free to mock me and imply that I am hopelessly deluded all you want; doesn't change anything. Though it does serve as a reminder of why I put you on my 'Ignore' list in the first place (damn mobile platform keeps inflicting your posts upon me anyway).

 

[DermViser]

Bull. I'd never so much as heard that phrase before I came here. Granted, I haven't spent much time on there in the past year (most of my digging was at the beginning when I was trying to decide whether to take the plunge), so maybe it has suddenly, miraculously changed.

As to your laughing at the bolded, I don't know what to tell you. Those things are just true. There's not even anything to argue there, because you really don't have any perspective on my enjoyment/motivation under differing circumstances. Feel free to mock me and imply that I am hopelessly deluded all you want; doesn't change anything. Though it does serve as a reminder of why I put you on my 'Ignore' list in the first place (damn mobile platform keeps inflicting your posts upon me anyway).

Feel free to put me on Ignore again. Like you said, you haven't spent much time on their in the past year. I have yet to see someone say to aim for a P. Yes P = MD but P does not = Residency.

I'm laughing bc medical school is different from undergrad in terms of volume, depth, etc. You're on a straight train to neuroticismville if you believe that you need a grade to motivate you, esp. when your class is full of people who want that same grade. It'll esp. be bad in MS-3 when your learning switches to independent learning and there isn't a grade on the horizon or a certain number of points to get.

 

[NickNaylor]

Bull. I'd never so much as heard that phrase before I came here. Granted, I haven't spent much time on there in the past year (most of my digging was at the beginning when I was trying to decide whether to take the plunge), so maybe it has suddenly, miraculously changed.

As to your laughing at the bolded, I don't know what to tell you. Those things are just true. There's not even anything to argue there, because you really don't have any perspective on my enjoyment/motivation under differing circumstances. Feel free to mock me and imply that I am hopelessly deluded all you want; doesn't change anything. Though it does serve as a reminder of why I put you on my 'Ignore' list in the first place (damn mobile platform keeps inflicting your posts upon me anyway).

This is pre-allo, not allo. In allo, the argument is that while grades do not in and of themselves matter, they are markers of academic success generally, which is important. Thus, it is more likely that you weill do well on step 1 and the wards if you do well in pre-clinicals, irrespective of whether or not the grades themselves are actually important. I would argue that this isn't a strict rule, but it's certainly a trend.

P=MD is advocated usually by pre-meds and often by med students, but it's not for everyone and is certainy nnot a piece of advice that everyone should follow. If you have any interest in something competitive or want to be at the top of your class, following the P=MD philosophy is obviously not a good move.

 

[DermViser]

This is pre-allo, not allo. In allo, the argument is that while grades do not in and of themselves matter, they are markers of academic success generally, which is important. Thus, it is more likely that you weill do well on step 1 and the wards if you do well in pre-clinicals, irrespective of whether or not the grades themselves are actually important. I would argue that this isn't a strict rule, but it's certainly a trend.

P=MD is advocated usually by pre-meds and often by med students, but it's not for everyone and is certainy nnot a piece of advice that everyone should follow. If you have any interest in something competitive or want to be at the top of your class, following the P=MD philosophy is obviously not a good move.

Correct following the P=MD mantra in terms of how much one should study is completely foolhardy. I know of no one (definitely not on SDN) who has advocated that just aiming for a P is fine. My point was that if getting a "grade" is your primary motivation, med school will eat you alive esp. in certain evaluative assessments in which the grade is not clear. It breeds neuroticism with no real benefit in terms of qualities PDs are looking for in residents. All over multiple choice questions.

For example, getting Honors in a clerkship is not a list which you check off certain things on a rubric and get your H. Interns/residents catch onto the above attitude quite quickly. It's so obvious when someone is trying hard for a grade vs. someone who is trying hard to make things flow better. Doing things without secondary reward is a skill to learn bc once you're an intern/resident, you'll be doing A LOT of things, where the grade isn't your prize.

 

[mehc012]

Feel free to put me on Ignore again. Like you said, you haven't spent much time on their in the past year. I have yet to see someone say to aim for a P. Yes P = MD but P does not = Residency.

I'm laughing bc medical school is different from undergrad in terms of volume, depth, etc. You're on a straight train to neuroticismville if you believe that you need a grade to motivate you, esp. when your class is full of people who want that same grade. It'll esp. be bad in MS-3 when your learning switches to independent learning and there isn't a grade on the horizon or a certain number of points to get.

Ugh. I am not explaining myself well. I can see what you're laughing at, and I get it, I really do. That's not the whole story, though, by any stretch.

It's more that while I am super interested in learning (always have been), and often go above and beyond on that front, I prefer a kick in the pants on the way out the door.
And hey, perhaps I am ascribing too much to grades...in the past 2yrs I have completely overhauled my time management (as in, having any at all), study skills (as in, studying at all) and yes, grades. Much of that motivation was my realization that I wanted better long-term retention and less cramming (partly after reading Allo and noticing a lot of 'binge purge' going on, esp with regards to Step 1). Much of it was becoming determined that my schedule would be 'I can get this done no matter what' rather than 'I can get this done if nothing major crops up in my life between now and finals'. And yes, some of that motivation was 'holy crap, I actually need the grades now'. So perhaps you're right, and I'm putting too much weight on that aspect of it - there have been a lot of changes in the past 2yrs, and while the grades were the most tangible bit, they were hardly the biggest ones.

So I see your point - grades should not be the main motivator. I don't think they really are, for me (I spent 8yrs convinced they were meaningless, so it's not hard to jump back to that), and I think I misrepresented myself there.
But part of me feels that, if I keep this up and do as well as I can, I want the credit for it. I want the grade. If I earn a C, I earn a C, and I pass, but if I earn an A, I damn well want to see it and have it count for something. And regardless of the grade aspect, I DO perform far, far better under pressure.

 

[mehc012]

This is pre-allo, not allo. In allo, the argument is that while grades do not in and of themselves matter, they are markers of academic success generally, which is important. Thus, it is more likely that you weill do well on step 1 and the wards if you do well in pre-clinicals, irrespective of whether or not the grades themselves are actually important. I would argue that this isn't a strict rule, but it's certainly a trend.

P=MD is advocated usually by pre-meds and often by med students, but it's not for everyone and is certainy nnot a piece of advice that everyone should follow. If you have any interest in something competitive or want to be at the top of your class, following the P=MD philosophy is obviously not a good move.

I know we're in pre-allo now. I would not post in Allo, but I do read it, and that's where I've seen the most P=MD. It's also where I saw a lot of posts about learning everything for courses, forgetting it, learning for the next exam, forgetting it, OMG learn everything over for Step 1, OK, relax, it's over now forget most of it again.

I understand that neither of these mentalities is necessarily mainstream...but they are not entirely minor, either, and both made quite the impression on me at the time.
I could easily have seen myself falling into the binge-purge cycle with academics, because it is what I did in undergrad when I "cared only about learning, not grades". I've taken steps to change my approach and minimize the chances of falling back into that pattern. Reading through Allo is what made me decide to master Anki. I have spent the past 2yrs figuring out how best to use Anki for classes and for exams, because reading Allo made me decide that I did not want to be the one posting either of those ideas when I finally joined that forum. I am a better student now, and am better prepared for what lies ahead, because I browse Allo now and then.
I could also see myself falling into P=MD if it were an option. I'm not proud of it, but sometimes I struggle to bust myself out of procrastination, and it helps to have an external motivator (fwiw, I worry less about clinical years because there are other, non-grade motivators present).
Do I have the whole picture? Nope. Won't have that until I'm living it. But I use what I've got access to now, to help me make decisions and maximize my chances in the future. That's all I can do.

 

[mcloaf]

I know we're in pre-allo now. I would not post in Allo, but I do read it, and that's where I've seen the most P=MD.

As an aside, far more people (especially on the internet) espouse the idea of P=MD than actually adhere to it when it's actually game time.

 

[DermViser]

As an aside, far more people (especially on the internet) espouse the idea of P=MD than actually adhere to it when it's actually game time.

It's bc you have freaks who spazz over getting an HP instead of an H in Histology and lose all perspective.

 

[Ismet]

As an aside, far more people (especially on the internet) espouse the idea of P=MD than actually adhere to it when it's actually game time.

Agreed. P=MD is more of a joke than an actual goal. It was tossed around a ton in pre-clinical when we were facing a difficult exam, but you can sure bet that people were studying their butts off for it.

It's nice that there's no severe consequences for barely passing a couple exams, though. Of course if you go through all of pre-clinical like that, you're going to have major problems come boards time and clinical years. But if you have to deal with an emergency or you're having a lot of trouble with a subject or something, I think that's where the P=MD mentality is nice to fall back on and be less stressed. In MS1, I broke my leg a few days before an exam that was worth >50% of the block grade (aka if you fail that exam you fail the block and have to remediate) and at that point I was extremely thankful just to pass. Also nice for people with kids, family emergencies, etc. But not a mentality to follow consistently throughout.

 

[ridethecliche]

Ugh. I am not explaining myself well. I can see what you're laughing at, and I get it, I really do. That's not the whole story, though, by any stretch.

I think you need to relax and reach out to friends or people here to see how stuff actually works.

At Hopkins, for instance, stuff might be pass fail but you get numbers and know exactly where you stand in the class rankings. It's an attempt at the best of both worlds mentality : competition against self and hopefully friendly competition with others while still collaborating.