Which would you do In State DO or Out Of State MD?

[Instatewaiter]

Everyone says "being a DO can be limiting." Okay, maybe you might have a hard time snagging a dermatology residency at Hopkins, but the truth is the odds of getting one of those residencies are INCREDIBLY slim no matter where you come from.

Well then look at IM residencies then. It will give you a good idea in a non-competitive specialty.

.

Just another thing to consider, the DO match is BEFORE the MD match, so if you are competitive in the DO match, you will probably match into a competitive field before you go through the MD match. Only the people who do not match into a DO residency (or those who don't want a DO residency) will go into the MD match. So, chances are, if you didn't match into a competitive DO program, you won't match into an MD program, and you probably weren't a competitive candidate to begin with.

I guess what I'm saying is, there are some fields you will just not match into regardless if you went to an MD or DO school. If you are not competitive in either school, your decisions on a specialty will be limited.

To clarify, you don't have to do the DO match and most DO students who are shooting for allo spots, forgo the DO match so they can match in the allo match.

If you submit a DO match list, you are probably going to match DO, so those who want to do an ACGME program, usually forgo the DO match.

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[MedMan25]

it could be said that bc DO residencies spots don't exist for the uber competitive specialities in some states that they are forced to go outside of the DO match. Therfore their match statistics would be lower overall because the large majority of DOs are attempting to match to more competitive specialties. I wonder if there is data on this??

The majority of DO students apply to primary care residency programs. The reason you have so many DO students applying to allopathic programs is because the AOA only offers 2,435 residency spots for their 3,724 graduates (that's 35% fewer positions offered than graduating seniors). There are 21,982 allopathic residency positions offered to 16,468 graduating seniors from MD programs (that's 25% MORE positions offered than graduating seniors). If you look at the percentages of osteopathic graduates that end up matching into osteopathic programs, the numbers are relatively few with most schools <50% of their students matching into AOA programs. This publication shows the breakdown by school:
http://blogs.do-online.org/media/2/20090210-DR_2-10-09_CollegeSummary.pdf

 

[MedMan25]

I don't believe this includes the osteopathic match, correct? Please don't publish this without explaining. It's very misleading. In case you don't understand, DOs have their own residency programs that don't get matched through the allopathic matching process. There is a separate match.

I am aware of the fact that DO programs have their own match. Most DO graduates don't apply for osteopathic residencies. If they did, there would be quite a few DO graduates without residency spots. See my previous post.

 

[MedMan25]

I guess what I'm saying is, there are some fields you will just not match into regardless if you went to an MD or DO school. If you are not competitive in either school, your decisions on a specialty will be limited.

Yes, but if you are applying for a competitive specialty, all else being equal, you have a better chance of matching coming from an MD program than a DO program. That's why I made the suggestion that the OP take an MD acceptance if given one unless the OP is sure that he/she has no interest in a competitive residency (which is a difficult thing to judge when you haven't even begun medical school in my opinion).

 

[GMed]

Yes, but if you are applying for a competitive specialty, all else being equal, you have a better chance of matching coming from an MD program than a DO program. That's why I made the suggestion that the OP take an MD acceptance if given one unless the OP is sure that he/she has no interest in a competitive residency (which is a difficult thing to judge when you haven't even begun medical school in my opinion).

I agree.

From my personal experiences, the only DO's that I saw on my interview trail at the top university programs I was applying to (in IM) were top of their class with board scores 230+, so these DO's are not just those that could not get into the osteopathic match. I actually had a conversation with a few of them and those I met understood the difficulties of getting an interview even though many had same or better scores as MD applicants.

The only large academic place that had any DO's, which I interviewed at (~30) for IM, was Cleveland Clinic and Umass. Even at the Clinic, the DO's were only ~ 25% of the whole class.

 

[christina30]

I agree.

From my personal experiences, the only DO's that I saw on my interview trail at the top university programs I was applying to (in IM) were top of their class with board scores 230+, so these DO's are not just those that could not get into the osteopathic match. I actually had a conversation with a few of them and those I met understood the difficulties of getting an interview even though many had same or better scores as MD applicants.

The only large academic place that had any DO's, which I interviewed at (~30) for IM, was Cleveland Clinic and Umass. Even at the Clinic, the DO's were only ~ 25% of the whole class.

There are also far less DO grads than MD grads per year - you're not taking that into account.

 

[link2swim06]

in 2009, there 16,468 MD grads to 3,364 DO grads for a total of 19,832

83% MD, 17% DO, or almost 5 to 1 ratio

btw, there are two sources of data to compare residency match in allopathic programs by both DO and MD

there is brief data here

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/erasmdphd/start.htm

there is complete data here (2010 isn't out yet)

http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html

I also just did some very quick numbers of comparing the number of grads from a school type (DO or MD) applying for residency type over the total number of grads from that type for a few competitive match types. This may (repeat may) show us something of how competitive grads think that there school type is when applying for a match (ie fewer grads will apply if they think they are less competitive). This is such a rough cut and does not take into account so many other factors it may now show anything but what the heck...we're among supportive, nurturing friends!



Dermatology: 4.1% MD, 2.2% DO

Anesthesiology: 10.6% MD, 10.4% DO

Radiology: 9.1% MD, 6.3% DO

Orthopedic Surgery: 4.1% MD, 2.2% DO

But what are the accepted match placements (I am assuming this is only applicants).

 

[XxNemesis29xX]

Well, check and see if the out of state MD school will offer in-state tuition after 12 months of residency, if THAT's the case, pick the MD school since it'll only cost you more the 1st year. That's what I'm doing with my school!

 

[GoLytely]

Having elected a black man into the highest office of the land(president of the United State) and seeing what it has done regarding prejudice against colored people...Maybe we need a surgeon general with a D.O. to finally end this prejudice of D.O. vs M.D.

Surely you're being sarcastic, since Obama has, if anything, exacerbated prejudice.

 

[GMed]

There are also far less DO grads than MD grads per year - you're not taking that into account.

Taking into account your reasoning and based on the following statistics stated:

83% MD, 17% DO, or almost 5 to 1 ratio

Theoretically at MGH, Hopkins, Brigham, UCSF, UCLA, Washington University, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Columbia, Michigan University there should be at least 17% DO in internal medicine then.

There are currently 0 DO at these places I remember seeing from their resident sheets, and if I may have missed 1 or 2 I apologize.

At all of the places I interviewed (30 programs) the only DO applicants I really saw were at Umass and Cleveland Clinic (~10% of those interviewed). Based on your logic, 17% of the students interviewing should have been DO, and yet at the 28 other programs I went to, there were none out of 500 or so other applicants (Interview groups on any one day were anywhere from 15-40/ most of the programs provide the schools and names of applicants that interview thats how I know).

 

[Cleavername]

But what are the accepted match placements (I am assuming this is only applicants).

it is applicants. there is prob a reason why matriculants stats aret released.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I agree.

From my personal experiences, the only DO's that I saw on my interview trail at the top university programs I was applying to (in IM) were top of their class with board scores 230+, so these DO's are not just those that could not get into the osteopathic match. I actually had a conversation with a few of them and those I met understood the difficulties of getting an interview even though many had same or better scores as MD applicants.

The only large academic place that had any DO's, which I interviewed at (~30) for IM, was Cleveland Clinic and Umass. Even at the Clinic, the DO's were only ~ 25% of the whole class.

I had the same experience while I interviewed for residency (also in IM)

There was 1 program that I interviewed at that had any DO applicants there (VCU had 2) and 1 program at a 2nd look that had a single DO (Hopkins Bayview). I interviewed at 11 places (and 2nd look at 2 places) most of which had 20-40 applicants at a time.

So that is 3 DOs total out of around 200-300 applicants.

It leads me to believe that it is harder to match at a solid IM program as a DO and harder to get interviews.

 

[J1515]

The only large academic place that had any DO's, which I interviewed at (~30) for IM, was Cleveland Clinic and Umass. Even at the Clinic, the DO's were only ~ 25% of the whole class.

You don't know how many DOs applied to either of those places. If a total of 15 applied and all 15 matched at CC and Umass, that's a 100% match rate. If 1000 applied and only 15 matched, that's a completely different story.

Taking into account your reasoning and based on the following statistics stated:

83% MD, 17% DO, or almost 5 to 1 ratio

Theoretically at MGH, Hopkins, Brigham, UCSF, UCLA, Washington University, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Columbia, Michigan University there should be at least 17% DO in internal medicine then.

That's assuming that your 17% applied to these places and had comparable academic qualifications to their MD counterparts. With the exception of Hopkins, I don't know anyone in my graduating class who applied to any of those places. Large amts of NIH grants != great residency program in everyone's eyes. People tend to want to go to places where they had good experiences.

Speaking with a few 4th years at my DO alma mater recently and they spoke unofficially (matchlist hasn't come out yet) of 2 matches at Hopkins this year and 2 at Yale so far that they knew of. Again, I don't know how many applied to either, but they obviously take qualified applicants.

 

[hussamdein]

You're a bit late ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_R._Blanck

There's a huge difference betweeen surgeon general of the army and surgeon general of the United States. For the former (i.e. the one you gave a link to), it's worth noting that nonphysicians can hold that post. I'm pretty sure a nurse is holding it right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale_Pollock

 

[hussamdein]

Yes, but if you are applying for a competitive specialty, all else being equal, you have a better chance of matching coming from an MD program than a DO program. That's why I made the suggestion that the OP take an MD acceptance if given one unless the OP is sure that he/she has no interest in a competitive residency (which is a difficult thing to judge when you haven't even begun medical school in my opinion).

Agreed.

Premeds love playing with numbers and talking about "theoretically this and theoretically that". Yes, it's theoretically possible to match into neurosurgery coming from the carribean, but would I bet on it? No. Same with DO. If I want to specialize and/or subspecialize, can a DO do it? Most definitely. And there are LOTS of them that do. Are the chances of doing that equal to the chances of an MD doing that? Heck no.

Whatever tuition money that's saved for going to the DO school right now is a fraction of the money that's made as a future physician practicing the specialty you want. Even if the MD increases your chances of matching into your dream program by just 5%.

However, if a person is 100% set on primary care from the start, that's a different issue. I've very rarely seen anyone who ends up doing what they want as a premed though, so I'd still be going MD. I have many many many OMS-4 friends that would tell you the same thing after this year's s.hitty match. It doesn't help that it's going to get much worse.

 

[JoshUNCW]

Surely you're being sarcastic, since Obama has, if anything, exacerbated prejudice.

Racist people are just bitter "their country is being taken over." That's not Obama's fault.

 

[MedMan25]

I have many many many OMS-4 friends that would tell you the same thing after this year's s.hitty match. It doesn't help that it's going to get much worse.

It is going to get worse. Allopathic schools are increasing their enrollment each year while residency positions remain fixed. This is going to result in an increased level of competitiveness for residency spots generally but the burden of competition is going to be disproportionately shared by DO and IMGs.

Bottom line is, unless you have some philosophical reason to attend a DO program (which very few DO students do as evidenced by the scant percentage of DOs that end up practicing OMM) or you are 100% set on primary care, don't pass up an MD acceptance.

Just a little disclaimer here, I have no problem with DOs. I applied to and was accepted to a DO school and I would have been happy to attend if I hadn't been accepted to an MD program. I think DOs are equivalent in talent and ability to their MD counterparts. I'm simply trying to offer a word of advice to someone trying to decide whether to take a DO over MD acceptance.

 

[GMed]

You don't know how many DOs applied to either of those places. If a total of 15 applied and all 15 matched at CC and Umass, that's a 100% match rate. If 1000 applied and only 15 matched, that's a completely different story.



That's assuming that your 17% applied to these places and had comparable academic qualifications to their MD counterparts. With the exception of Hopkins, I don't know anyone in my graduating class who applied to any of those places. Large amts of NIH grants != great residency program in everyone's eyes. People tend to want to go to places where they had good experiences.

Speaking with a few 4th years at my DO alma mater recently and they spoke unofficially (matchlist hasn't come out yet) of 2 matches at Hopkins this year and 2 at Yale so far that they knew of. Again, I don't know how many applied to either, but they obviously take qualified applicants.

I think one of the bigger questions you should ask those people who did not apply to the top places whether they would go there if they could. If someone had the chance to go to Harvard Medical School over a DO school, I guarantee you that most people would pick Harvard. There might be a person here or there that would go for the DO school due to family reasons/financial reasons/philosophical reasons, but I'm confident that is in the minority. Does graduating from Harvard make you a better doctor than a DO, probably not. What it will offer you is WAAAAY MORE OPPORTUNITIES.

The same goes for everything that I just said about residency as well, probably even more so. If you ask the graduating seniors at your alma mater if they would rather go to Hopkins over a community program, my guess is if they got over the stereotype that Hopkins is a big scary place (which is not true IMO), most would opt for Hopkins. (I said most, I'm sure a few would not, cause I can imagine you using some fringe example).

You also have to understand that I never said DO's can't get into a Hopkins or MGH. I said they have a much tougher time than an MD candidate. I have seen the match lists for the COM's as I have for the MD's. There are always a few here and there from the DOs who are exceptional and get amazing places, but the majority do not. If you compare match lists between DOs and MDs, there is a significant difference btw the "prestigious programs according to SDN forum" that DOs get and MDs get. If you want to compare the best DO school with HMS graduates. There is no comparison. HMS list for internal med (9-MGH 6-BWH 6-UCSF, etc..). Does going to these places automatically make you a better doctor? No it does not. It depends on the individual BUT they will open 100 more doors for you in terms of fellowship/research/academics/JOB opportunities than going to a lesser internal medicine program.

Also in terms of job prospects. If you are hiring for a position with 2 candidates applying for an internal medicine job, assuming you get along with both, would you take the guy from Hopkins or the guy from community program, also assuming you don't know them personally. With all things being equal I guarantee you 9/10 they will take the guy from Hopkins. Yes there will be that 1/10, but again do you really want to take that chance?

 

[J1515]

I think one of the bigger questions you should ask those people who did not apply to the top places whether they would go there if they could. If someone had the chance to go to Harvard Medical School over a DO school, I guarantee you that most people would pick Harvard. There might be a person here or there that would go for the DO school due to family reasons/financial reasons/philosophical reasons, but I'm confident that is in the minority. Does graduating from Harvard make you a better doctor than a DO, probably not. What it will offer you is WAAAAY MORE OPPORTUNITIES.

I cannot relate in this sense as I chose a DO school over MD schools (and I would again in a heartbeat) and ranked what many would call a "middle tier" residency over a few well known top 15 programs where yes, I did get interviews. There are many who use DO as a backup and would rather go to the MD school that is the most well known regardless of curriculum, clinical affiliations, etc... People have different priorities. I'm a firm believer that your knowledge and attitude will take you where you want to go and hence names mean nothing to me. I had no desire to train at JHU or Yale. I'm exactly where I want to be. Opportunities are what you make of them.

The same goes for everything that I just said about residency as well, probably even more so. If you ask the graduating seniors at your alma mater if they would rather go to Hopkins over a community program, my guess is if they got over the stereotype that Hopkins is a big scary place (which is not true IMO), most would opt for Hopkins. (I said most, I'm sure a few would not, cause I can imagine you using some fringe example).

You're making an incorrect assumption. I suppose you had to be in our shoes to understand, or maybe it's just that DOs don't have as much of a gunnerish attitude where they would kill to be associated with the big names (complete generalization I know). I've rotated at some of the big name hospitals. Some were good and some were bad. Once you got over the awe of "Wow I'm at Hopkins/Columbia/Duke" you realize it's just another hospital treating sick patients. Some attendings were excellent teachers, some weren't. Some lectures were great, other's you just went for the free food. Everyone has different motivations for choosing their life's path. Ultimately your main goal is to be happy. If your idea (not you personally) of happiness is to be able to train at any residency ranked in the top 10, then it will be difficult for you to understand the thought process of someone who rotated at a community hospital or non top 10 and fell in love there.

You also have to understand that I never said DO's can't get into a Hopkins or MGH. I said they have a much tougher time than an MD candidate. I have seen the match lists for the COM's as I have for the MD's. There are always a few here and there from the DOs who are exceptional and get amazing places, but the majority do not. If you compare match lists between DOs and MDs, there is a significant difference btw the "prestigious programs according to SDN forum" that DOs get and MDs get. If you want to compare the best DO school with HMS graduates. There is no comparison. HMS list for internal med (9-MGH 6-BWH 6-UCSF, etc..). Does going to these places automatically make you a better doctor? No it does not. It depends on the individual BUT they will open 100 more doors for you in terms of fellowship/research/academics/JOB opportunities than going to a lesser internal medicine program.

You are falling into the pre-med mentality of looking at matchlists. You are also wayyyy overestimating how difficult it is to get fellowships and jobs. You will do just fine coming from a middle tier program, especially a program that takes fellows from their own residency. With that said, a matchlist does not tell you USMLE scores, clinical grades, research, or where the student applied. DOs as a whole do worse on the USMLE. Therefore I'd expect them to not match as well at very competitive places. The ones who do well on the USMLE get the competitive interviews. It's not the letters that are causing the problem (as much as DO students love to place the blame on everyone but themselves), it's the individual. Do not break out the "all other things being equal" argument, because that doesn't fly in the real world. All other things are never equal. A PD never looks at two identical applicants, with identical opinions on their personality and attitude, and uses the letters after their names to decide. It just doesn't happen that way. Law2doc (a resident) made a pretty nice post about all this a few months ago.

Also in terms of job prospects. If you are hiring for a position with 2 candidates applying for an internal medicine job, assuming you get along with both, would you take the guy from Hopkins or the guy from community program, also assuming you don't know them personally. With all things being equal I guarantee you 9/10 they will take the guy from Hopkins. Yes there will be that 1/10, but again do you really want to take that chance?

Your assumptions are wrong. You are thinking about it from a gunner applicant standpoint. Once again you are looking at the "all other things being equal" scenario. That's not how it works in the real world. They will take the guy who had someone make a call for him, had the right LORs, knew someone who put in a word for him, had an impressive CV, conducted research on the topic you are currently researching, hit it off better with on the interview. You want someone to work for you who will get along well with everyone and work hard. This is what PDs think when selecting applicants.

 

[zetabetazeta]

hey, you stole my line

Noo! You taught/told me that and I was just answering it for YOU.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

in for the sig.

 

[MedMan25]

Once again you are looking at the "all other things being equal" scenario. That's not how it works in the real world. They will take the guy who had someone make a call for him, had the right LORs, knew someone who put in a word for him, had an impressive CV, conducted research on the topic you are currently researching, hit it off better with on the interview. You want someone to work for you who will get along well with everyone and work hard. This is what PDs think when selecting applicants.

For the most part I agree with you. If you work hard, there is no reason you can't land a derm residency at the most prestigious program in the country coming from a DO school, Ross, or anywhere else. However, when applying for a competitive residency you are usually competing against a whole bunch of applicants who had great LORs, knew the right people, had awesome grades/step 1 scores, got along with their attendings, did the right research, and have impressive interviewing skills.

When a program director has to decide how to rank 15-20 people who all seemed like great applicants, don't you think there is a bias that might be going on inside the mind of a PD who came from an MD program who is trying to decide between an MD and a DO? And since most program directors at allopathic residency programs are MDs, don't you think there might be a little bit of an advantage given to those who also graduated from MD programs?

 

[GMed]

I cannot relate in this sense as I chose a DO school over MD schools (and I would again in a heartbeat) and ranked what many would call a "middle tier" residency over a few well known top 15 programs where yes, I did get interviews. There are many who use DO as a backup and would rather go to the MD school that is the most well known regardless of curriculum, clinical affiliations, etc... People have different priorities. I'm a firm believer that your knowledge and attitude will take you where you want to go and hence names mean nothing to me. I had no desire to train at JHU or Yale. I'm exactly where I want to be. Opportunities are what you make of them.





You're making an incorrect assumption. I suppose you had to be in our shoes to understand, or maybe it's just that DOs don't have as much of a gunnerish attitude where they would kill to be associated with the big names (complete generalization I know). I've rotated at some of the big name hospitals. Some were good and some were bad. Once you got over the awe of "Wow I'm at Hopkins/Columbia/Duke" you realize it's just another hospital treating sick patients. Some attendings were excellent teachers, some weren't. Some lectures were great, other's you just went for the free food. Everyone has different motivations for choosing their life's path. Ultimately your main goal is to be happy. If your idea (not you personally) of happiness is to be able to train at any residency ranked in the top 10, then it will be difficult for you to understand the thought process of someone who rotated at a community hospital or non top 10 and fell in love there.





You are falling into the pre-med mentality of looking at matchlists. You are also wayyyy overestimating how difficult it is to get fellowships and jobs. You will do just fine coming from a middle tier program, especially a program that takes fellows from their own residency. With that said, a matchlist does not tell you USMLE scores, clinical grades, research, or where the student applied. DOs as a whole do worse on the USMLE. Therefore I'd expect them to not match as well at very competitive places. The ones who do well on the USMLE get the competitive interviews. It's not the letters that are causing the problem (as much as DO students love to place the blame on everyone but themselves), it's the individual. Do not break out the "all other things being equal" argument, because that doesn't fly in the real world. All other things are never equal. A PD never looks at two identical applicants, with identical opinions on their personality and attitude, and uses the letters after their names to decide. It just doesn't happen that way. Law2doc (a resident) made a pretty nice post about all this a few months ago.





Your assumptions are wrong. You are thinking about it from a gunner applicant standpoint. Once again you are looking at the "all other things being equal" scenario. That's not how it works in the real world. They will take the guy who had someone make a call for him, had the right LORs, knew someone who put in a word for him, had an impressive CV, conducted research on the topic you are currently researching, hit it off better with on the interview. You want someone to work for you who will get along well with everyone and work hard. This is what PDs think when selecting applicants.

I think you need to stop and read what I wrote before you start posting.

I understand your post and I agree with many of the things you say. Especially the part really where your success depends on the individual (this is exactly what I said).

You are assuming that I said you cannot be successful as a DO and this is completely missing my point.

Everything you said about what what a PD looks for in a resident is true. I 100% agree with you, but like you said this is the real world and in the real world the name of the medical school you went to and the degree you have has a large effect on the process. Stop pretending like it doesn't. I've met plenty of caribbean MD, international MDs and DO students who had stellar scores and ranks, stellar research, great personalities who did not get anywhere near the interviews that people with lower scores from "prestigious" MD schools got.

I also am not WAAAAAY OVERESTIMATING how hard it is to get a fellowship. You do realize in house fellowships for cards at big programs are at most ~6-9 spots. Usually 2-3 of these are reserved for in house. With cardiology being such a popular subspecialty, at most academic centers, out of a class of 30, there is usually about 6 at least wanting to do cards. While it might be easier to get those 2-3 in house, this is not a guarantee that you are going to get Cards at all. At many of the places I interviewed, aside from Hopkins, MGH, Brigham, and 8 others who basically had a 100% match rate for cards. The other 20 programs constituted "upper tier" internal medicine programs had ~75-80% match rate for cards. So this isn't just a walk in the park like you suggest. Even at these high powered institutions, there are many residents who are not getting cards.

To the OP I leave this one point and I'm done with this thread:

Top ranked > 15% of class with an MD will have a BETTER CHANCE at getting the program he or she wants whatever it may be compared to someone who is top ranked > 15% from a DO school. (Not saying he or she will 100% get it, but he or she will have a BETTER CHANCE whether its some community program in the boondocks or a name university program in whatever specialty)

Done

 

[J1515]

When a program director has to decide how to rank 15-20 people who all seemed like great applicants, don't you think there is a bias that might be going on inside the mind of a PD who came from an MD program who is trying to decide between an MD and a DO? And since most program directors at allopathic residency programs are MDs, don't you think there might be a little bit of an advantage given to those who also graduated from MD programs?

I don't think a lot of DOs make it to that 15-20 rank list position and I explain why below. In response to specifically the derm residency you mentioned, as far as an advantage is concerned, anybody who says one way or another is really just guessing for three reasons:

1) I'd be willing to bet every dollar I have in my pocket right now that in general, fewer DO students desire neurosurgery, dermatology, rad onc, ophtho, etc.

2) The minority of DO students who do want ultracompetitive fields have osteopathic residencies to choose from.

3) Much more important than the letters is if the PD has experience with students from your school or more importantly with you. PDs don't want a guy from a top10 school or a lower tier school for that matter who has all of Harrison's memorized but goes home early, takes sick days, and won't cover another resident's service when asked. They are looking for someone who wants to learn, works well with others, and will be sufficiently independent throughout the 3-7 years. The fewer headaches the better. That's dependant on the individual, and independent of where you went to school.

when applying for a competitive residency you are usually competing against a whole bunch of applicants who had great LORs, knew the right people, had awesome grades/step 1 scores, got along with their attendings, did the right research, and have impressive interviewing skills.

Absolutely. And this is where DO applicants overestimate their own competitiveness. They think just because they score a 230 on step 1 that interviews should be rolling in for derm and ophtho, and that's not how it works. Chances are you wouldn't be getting too many derm or ophtho interviews coming from an allopathic school and a 230 with nothing else. I've heard more than a few average DO students (and I mean average) complain that they weren't getting invites to allopathic ENT. The problem is you have above average applicants applying to these places as you alluded to.

I think the DO profession as a whole is hurting themselves in several ways. They admit applicants with lower GPAs and MCATs (average) and then wonder why the average DO student scores lower on the USMLE than an MD student? They also want to be considered equal with allopathic applicants when it comes time for residency applications, but don't allow allopathic applicants to apply for osteopathic spots. They also continue to teach some parts of a curriculum that are not evidence based - see craniosacral therapy. If there is a bias in some peoples' eyes, that's the source. I've personally never seen this bias though outside of SDN.

 

[DrLuv]

.

 

[J1515]

You are assuming that I said you cannot be successful as a DO and this is completely missing my point.

No, I'm not assuming that.

Everything you said about what what a PD looks for in a resident is true. I 100% agree with you, but like you said this is the real world and in the real world the name of the medical school you went to and the degree you have has a large effect on the process. Stop pretending like it doesn't.

I'm not pretending. It doesn't have a large effect. I'm sorry you can't come to terms with that. There was a survey done a while back where PDs ranked in order of importance what they looked for in an application. Your medical school's name didn't even make the top 5.

I've met plenty of caribbean MD, international MDs and DO students who had stellar scores and ranks, stellar research, great personalities

No you haven't.

I also am not WAAAAAY OVERESTIMATING how hard it is to get a fellowship. You do realize in house fellowships for cards at big programs are at most ~6-9 spots. Usually 2-3 of these are reserved for in house. With cardiology being such a popular subspecialty, at most academic centers, out of a class of 30, there is usually about 6 at least wanting to do cards. While it might be easier to get those 2-3 in house, this is not a guarantee that you are going to get Cards at all. At many of the places I interviewed, aside from Hopkins, MGH, Brigham, and 8 others who basically had a 100% match rate for cards. The other 20 programs constituted "upper tier" internal medicine programs had ~75-80% match rate for cards. So this isn't just a walk in the park like you suggest. Even at these high powered institutions, there are many residents who are not getting cards.

I never said it's a walk in the park. Being a DO or coming from a middle tier residency will not hold you back from getting a cardiology fellowship. It's the individual. It would be nice if the name of a school or residency really did all the work for you as you claim it does, but that's not the real world.

Top ranked > 15% of class with an MD will have a BETTER CHANCE at getting the program he or she wants whatever it may be compared to someone who is top ranked > 15% from a DO school. (Not saying he or she will 100% get it, but he or she will have a BETTER CHANCE whether its some community program in the boondocks or a name university program in whatever specialty)

Once again you are running away with the "all other things being equal" argument. Not buying it. You are living in a theoretical world and not reality.

 

[J1515]

I know that many medical schools promote primary care, but I imagine it's emphasized more at DO schools,..I wouldn't want to feel forced into it, or that if I did change my mind and choose to specialize, it would suddenly become a huge upward battle.

Common misconception by pre-meds. More than 60% of last years class at NYCOM went into specialties. As a former DO student, I was never forced or guided into primary care and I was allowed to do electives all throughout 4th year in any specialty I wanted.

 

[GMed]

No, I'm not assuming that.



I'm not pretending. It doesn't have a large effect. I'm sorry you can't come to terms with that. There was a survey done a while back where PDs ranked in order of importance what they looked for in an application. Your medical school's name didn't even make the top 5.



No you haven't.




I never said it's a walk in the park. Being a DO or coming from a middle tier residency will not hold you back from getting a cardiology fellowship. It's the individual. It would be nice if the name of a school or residency really did all the work for you as you claim it does, but that's not the real world.



Once again you are running away with the "all other things being equal" argument. Not buying it. You are living in a theoretical world and not reality.

LOL OK

It sounds nice to live in your world. Send me a postcard.

 

[J1515]

LOL OK

It sounds nice to live in your world. Send me a postcard.

You mean the world of a DO who has actually experienced first hand all the stuff you claim to know about? Yah...

 

[MedMan25]

3) Much more important than the letters is if the PD has experience with students from your school or more importantly with you. PDs don't want a guy from a top10 school or a lower tier school for that matter who has all of Harrison's memorized but goes home early, takes sick days, and won't cover another resident's service when asked. They are looking for someone who wants to learn, works well with others, and will be sufficiently independent throughout the 3-7 years. The fewer headaches the better. That's dependant on the individual, and independent of where you went to school.

I completely agree with you. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't unrealistic for a DO applicant and an MD applicant with comparatively impressive qualifications to be competing against each other for a residency slot. In such a case, who the PD chooses to rank may very well come down to two letters. Is it fair? No, but that's life.

If there is a bias in some peoples' eyes, that's the source. I've personally never seen this bias though outside of SDN.

Well, to think that such biases only exist on online communities is a bit naive in my opinion. Up until just a few years ago, there were residency programs at the school I attend that absolutely refused to consider an IMG applicant. Didn't matter if the person scored a 300 on step 1 and had a LOR from hippocrates, if they didn't go to a US school, their application went in the trash. There are PDs out there with similar biases against DO students. I don't agree with such biases personally but regardless, they do exist. Like I said before, it's not fair, but that's how it is.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I think that depends on what you want to go into. If you just want to do internal medicine or family medicine DO is fine, any program you get into should serve you well to go into private primary care practice.

Problem is if you want to do Rads, Plastics, or Derm, or even cardio/GI in internal medicine, you are better off going to the MD, since you have a better chance of getting it than at a DO school.

The amount of more money you make in the ones I stated above if thats what you want will offset the extra debt 10+ fold.

So you say. Then you find yourself with an MD, double the debt load, and still unable to match into Rads, Plastics, or Derm. So you end up in FM, only you have twice as much debt as you would at the DO school.

 

[J1515]

I completely agree with you. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't unrealistic for a DO applicant and an MD applicant with comparatively impressive qualifications to be competing against each other for a residency slot. In such a case, who the PD chooses to rank may very well come down to two letters. Is it fair? No, but that's life.

The bolded part above is the point I'm trying to make. No two applicants are the same. It does not come down to just the initials. If a residency doesn't want to take DOs or IMGs, then they won't, period.

Well, to think that such biases only exist on online communities is a bit naive in my opinion.... There are PDs out there with similar biases against DO students. I don't agree with such biases personally but regardless, they do exist. Like I said before, it's not fair, but that's how it is.

What I said was I didn't personally experience any biases anywhere I went, from rotations or residency interviews and that's all that matters to me. I don't go by anecdotes on SDN because people here just love hearing themselves talk despite not knowing what they're saying (I'm not referring to you). If there's a PD somewhere in Wisconsin that is biased towards DOs that I don't know about so be it. I've heard rumors that a couple of NY residencies don't take DOs yet I and a few others in my class received interviews at these places. The point of me posting is that the majority of people offering advice here haven't gone through the process as a DO and most are just repeating what they've heard or think they know. If the OP wants to make an educated decision, he should talk to practicing MDs for their perspective on the allopathic school, and he should talk to practicing DOs for their perspective on this bias that pre-meds speak of. Then decide.

 

[GMed]

You mean the world of a DO who has actually experienced first hand all the stuff you claim to know about? Yah...

You mean experienced going into fellowship for cards as a DO?

OR

Do you mean experienced as you are an administrator/PD in terms of criteria of admission for residency?

OR

Do you mean experienced in claiming to have more authority than I do because well you say so?

I'm going to go with....... the last one.... yeah.....

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I'd take the MD if its a decent school and will provide you with an equivalent education as the DO school.

As counter-intuitive as that sounds, I have my reasons. I have nothing against DO programs. I'm in Texas and we have one of the best DO programs in the nation (UNTHSC). DO's are equally as competent as MD's and make equally good doctors. However, the difference between people on SDN giving you advice and the general public (including your superiors and peers in the future) is that people here are informed about DO programs, whereas the general public may not be. There is still a slight negative stigma associated with being a DO vs an MD, and that may effect your career. For me, the MD would be a much safer route. People on here have said that the opportunities to DO's are almost identical to those of MD's, and while that may be true...the difference of two letters may close some doors for you.

Essentially...if you know exactly what your career goals are you are certain that being a DO will not hinder those goals in any way, pick the cheaper school. However, if there is any uncertainty, take the safer, MD route.

Just my opinion....

That has to be the dumbest thing I've read on SDN in a while. Do you really believe a bunch of pre-meds have any idea what they're talking about? SDN pre-meds are notorious for being a bunch of uninformed, arrogant, condescending, know-it-alls who come across extremely naive and ignorant to residents and attending physicians. I can't believe you'd laud them over "your superiors," who one would assume are actual physicians working in the field.

 

[J1515]

You mean experienced going into fellowship for cards as a DO?

OR

Do you mean experienced as you are an administrator/PD in terms of criteria of admission for residency?

OR

Do you mean experienced in claiming to have more authority than I do because well you say so?

I'm going to go with....... the last one.... yeah.....

I mean being a DO resident and knowing what I did to get where I am right now and calling consults from DO fellows everyday. Check out the survey going around about 4 or 5 months ago for PDs. If I can find it I'll post it for you. I think you'll be embarassed when you see how much PDs said they care about med school name.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

You're a bit late ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_R._Blanck

He was Surgeon General of the Army.

 

[MedMan25]

The bolded part above is the point I'm trying to make. No two applicants are the same. It does not come down to just the initials. If a residency doesn't want to take DOs or IMGs, then they won't, period.

I guess that's where we disagree. I believe it's possible for a PD to have to judge between two or even several well-qualified applicants who all have good LORs, board scores, interviewing skills, etc. The more competitive the residency, the more likely you are to be grouped with people who are all similarly qualified. It's in such a situation that even the minor details (like where you went to school) can make a difference. That's not just medicine, that's life in general IMO.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Things to take into account:
1) What you want to do- MD will open more doors because DOs often are stigmatized. Look at the places various schools match their students for IM. Big difference between the 2 groups. This matters for fellowships.

And yet, there are quite a few DOs matching Mayo, Johns Hopkins, Harvard, and other top tier residency programs.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

You are basically just repeating what I just said. I said if you were doing IM as a general practitioner, then it does not matter, because any community program will suffice.

IM in and of itself is not very hard to get, if you want to get into IM. The biggest problem with IM is if you want to go to Cards or GI. The best bet is to get into a top IM program ~ JHH, MGH, Brigham, etc... in order to that. At the major top academic programs, I have not seen really any DOs at all in their residency programs. There are only a handful that did that I remember when I was interviewing that included cleveland clinic and a few others.

Then you haven't been looking. Several DOs have matched Hopkins and Brigham in the past few years. A DO just matched into derm at Mayo, so I'm not sure anything you're saying is true.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Seriously? You can tell cardio's competitiveness is going down because of the decrease in Echo reimbursement? I'm going to leave that one alone.

Here's a nice thread about DO in derm http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=30865

LOL you had to go back to 2002? Newsflash -- eight years have passed since then. The people you're talking to now were in junior high when that person was trying to match derm. Things change.

 

[jboz]

Then you haven't been looking. Several DOs have matched Hopkins and Brigham in the past few years. A DO just matched into derm at Mayo, so I'm not sure anything you're saying is true.

Out of how many?...C'mon broski, we know you're going DO, but there's no need to defend yourself/choice against every post that says something not of your liking. Try to sum it all up in one post with the mulit-quote function

 

[Rzarecta]

I mean being a DO resident and knowing what I did to get where I am right now and calling consults from DO fellows everyday. Check out the survey going around about 4 or 5 months ago for PDs. If I can find it I'll post it for you. I think you'll be embarassed when you see how much PDs said they care about med school name.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Looking at the data from the 2008 nrmp program director survey it shows that 64% of PDs thought that coming from an allopathic school was an important factor in giving interviews. Furthermore in terms of ranking applicants coming from an allopathic school was regarded as important as step 1, grades in clinical clerkships, MSPE, etc. (page 3 and 5 respectively).

 

[GMed]

I mean being a DO resident and knowing what I did to get where I am right now and calling consults from DO fellows everyday. Check out the survey going around about 4 or 5 months ago for PDs. If I can find it I'll post it for you. I think you'll be embarassed when you see how much PDs said they care about med school name.

Well DO resident perhaps this is the survey you are talking about:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf
Pg. 54 is what I am referencing.

I am so embarassed by how right you are.
I'm sorry here is the data for internal medicine:

Rank of importance from 1 - 5

Graduate of US ALLOPATHIC medical school - 3.8
Graduate of highly regarded medical school - 3.4

Gee these numbers are kinda low. Lets take a look at some other ones
Grades in required clerkships - 3.8 GASP! Same as grad of US allopathic??
Class ranking/quartile - 3.8 GASP!
Consistency of grades - 3.4
LOR of clerkship director in specialty - 3.9
USMLE STEP 1 score - 3.6??? NO WAY LOWER THAN graduate of US allopathic???
USMLE STEP 2 score - 3.7
Research - 2.6
Personal Statement - 2.9
AOA status - 3.2

Gee you sure showed me whats important to program directors Mr. DO resident guy.

 

[GMed]

Then you haven't been looking. Several DOs have matched Hopkins and Brigham in the past few years. A DO just matched into derm at Mayo, so I'm not sure anything you're saying is true.

Sigh..... can you please read what I wrote.

I specifically said for INTERNAL MEDICINE. No comprende?

There are NONE for internal medicine at the places I listed. Feel free to check and get back to me.

 

[J1515]

Well DO resident perhaps this is the survey you are talking about:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf
Pg. 54 is what I am referencing.

I am so embarassed by how right you are.
I'm sorry here is the data for internal medicine:

Rank of importance from 1 - 5

Graduate of US ALLOPATHIC medical school - 3.8
Graduate of highly regarded medical school - 3.4

Gee these numbers are kinda low. Lets take a look at some other ones
Grades in required clerkships - 3.8 GASP! Same as grad of US allopathic??
Class ranking/quartile - 3.8 GASP!
Consistency of grades - 3.4
LOR of clerkship director in specialty - 3.9
USMLE STEP 1 score - 3.6??? NO WAY LOWER THAN graduate of US allopathic???
USMLE STEP 2 score - 3.7
Research - 2.6
Personal Statement - 2.9
AOA status - 3.2

Gee you sure showed me whats important to program directors Mr. DO resident guy.

Here's a quick abstract I found on EM residencies:

Selection Criteria for Emergency Medicine Residency Applicants
Joseph T. Crane MD 1 , ***Carl M. Ferraro MD 1
1 Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Illinois at Chicago, Chicago, IL


Abstract: Objectives: To determine the criteria used by emergency medicine (EM) residency selection committees to select their residents, to determine whether there is a consensus among residency programs, to inform programs of areas of possible inconsistency, and to better educate applicants pursuing careers in EM. Methods: A questionnaire consisting of 20 items based on the current Electronic Residency Application Service (ERAS) guidelines was mailed to the program directors of all 118 EM residencies in existence in February 1998. The program directors were instructed to rank each item on a five-point scale (5 = most important, 1 = least important) as to its importance in the selection of residents. Followup was done in the form of e-mail and facsimile. Results: The overall response rate was 79.7%, with 94 of 118 programs responding. Items ranking as most important (4.0-5.0) in the selection process included: EM rotation grade (mean ± SD = 4.79 ± 0.50), interview (4.62 ± 0.63), clinical grades (4.36 ± 0.70), and recommendations (4.11 ± 0.85). Moderate emphasis (3.0-4.0) was placed on: elective done at program director's institution (3.75 ± 1.25), U.S. Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) step II (3.34 ± 0.93), interest expressed in program director's institution (3.30 ± 1.19), USMLE step I (3.28 ± 0.86), and awards/achievements (3.16 ± 0.88). Less emphasis (<3.0) was placed on Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Society (AOA) status (3.01 ± 1.09), medical school attended (3.00 ± 0.85), extracurricular activities (2.99 ± 0.87), basic science grades (2.88 ± 0.93), publications (2.87 ± 0.99), and personal statement (2.75 ± 0.96). Items most agreed upon by respondents (lowest standard deviation, SD) included EM rotation grade (SD 0.50), interview (SD 0.63), and clinical grades (SD 0.70). Of the 94 respondents, 37 (39.4%) replied they had minimum requirements for USMLE step I (195.11 ± 13.10), while 30 (31.9%) replied they had minimum requirements for USMLE step II (194.27 ± 14.96). Open-ended responses to "other" were related to personal characteristics, career/goals, and medical school performance. Conclusions: The selection criteria with the highest mean values as reported by the program directors were EM rotation grade, interview, clinical grades, and recommendations. Criteria showing the most consistency (lowest SD) included EM rotation grade, interview, and clinical grades. Results are compared with those from previous multispecialty studies.
---------------------------
As for overall residencies, in a survey by the NRMP, program directors were asked what factors were important in selecting applicants for their residency program. Those surveyed indicated the following criteria (from the most PDs mentioning it to the least): (http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf)

1)MSPE(76%)
2)USMLE step 1
3)Personal statement
4)LOR - dept chair
5)LOR - colleague
6)LOR - clerkship director
7)3rd year grades
8)USMLE step 2
9)Grades in desired clerkship of desired specialty
10)Gaps in education
11)Personal prior knowledge of applicant
12)Perceived committment to specialty
13)Class ranking
14) Audition rotation in your dept and Graduated from US allopathic school (64%)
15)........

Seems to me you don't know quite as much as you think you do. You conveniently left out of your post that PDs ranked 18 (yes, eighteen) different criteria as either being 3.8 or above. If you want to prove your point you're going to have to be a little more specific my 4th year friend. I also counted 9 (yes, nine) things that PDs said were more important than graduating from a US allopathic medical school. What you did is called selective posting. Didn't work.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Theoretically at MGH, Hopkins, Brigham, UCSF, UCLA, Washington University, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Columbia, Michigan University there should be at least 17% DO in internal medicine then.

There are currently 0 DO at these places I remember seeing from their resident sheets, and if I may have missed 1 or 2 I apologize.

There are currently three DOs doing IM residency at Hopkins:

http://www.hopkinsbayview.org/medicine/residency/currentresidents.html

I'm not going to bother researching the others, but suffice it to say, you obviously weren't looking close enough if three in one program escaped you.

 

[GMed]

Here's a quick abstract I found on EM residencies:

Selection Criteria for Emergency Medicine Residency Applicants
Joseph T. Crane MD 1 , ***Carl M. Ferraro MD 1
1 Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Illinois at Chicago, Chicago, IL


Abstract: Objectives: To determine the criteria used by emergency medicine (EM) residency selection committees to select their residents, to determine whether there is a consensus among residency programs, to inform programs of areas of possible inconsistency, and to better educate applicants pursuing careers in EM. Methods: A questionnaire consisting of 20 items based on the current Electronic Residency Application Service (ERAS) guidelines was mailed to the program directors of all 118 EM residencies in existence in February 1998. The program directors were instructed to rank each item on a five-point scale (5 = most important, 1 = least important) as to its importance in the selection of residents. Followup was done in the form of e-mail and facsimile. Results: The overall response rate was 79.7%, with 94 of 118 programs responding. Items ranking as most important (4.0-5.0) in the selection process included: EM rotation grade (mean ± SD = 4.79 ± 0.50), interview (4.62 ± 0.63), clinical grades (4.36 ± 0.70), and recommendations (4.11 ± 0.85). Moderate emphasis (3.0-4.0) was placed on: elective done at program director's institution (3.75 ± 1.25), U.S. Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) step II (3.34 ± 0.93), interest expressed in program director's institution (3.30 ± 1.19), USMLE step I (3.28 ± 0.86), and awards/achievements (3.16 ± 0.88). Less emphasis (<3.0) was placed on Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Society (AOA) status (3.01 ± 1.09), medical school attended (3.00 ± 0.85), extracurricular activities (2.99 ± 0.87), basic science grades (2.88 ± 0.93), publications (2.87 ± 0.99), and personal statement (2.75 ± 0.96). Items most agreed upon by respondents (lowest standard deviation, SD) included EM rotation grade (SD 0.50), interview (SD 0.63), and clinical grades (SD 0.70). Of the 94 respondents, 37 (39.4%) replied they had minimum requirements for USMLE step I (195.11 ± 13.10), while 30 (31.9%) replied they had minimum requirements for USMLE step II (194.27 ± 14.96). Open-ended responses to "other" were related to personal characteristics, career/goals, and medical school performance. Conclusions: The selection criteria with the highest mean values as reported by the program directors were EM rotation grade, interview, clinical grades, and recommendations. Criteria showing the most consistency (lowest SD) included EM rotation grade, interview, and clinical grades. Results are compared with those from previous multispecialty studies.
---------------------------
As for overall residencies, in a survey by the NRMP, program directors were asked what factors were important in selecting applicants for their residency program. Those surveyed indicated the following criteria (from the most PDs mentioning it to the least): (http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf)

1)MSPE(76%)
2)USMLE step 1
3)Personal statement
4)LOR - dept chair
5)LOR - colleague
6)LOR - clerkship director
7)3rd year grades
8)USMLE step 2
9)Grades in desired clerkship of desired specialty
10)Gaps in education
11)Personal prior knowledge of applicant
12)Perceived committment to specialty
13)Class ranking
14) Audition rotation in your dept and Graduated from US allopathic school (64%)
15)........

Seems to me you don't know quite as much as you think you do. You conveniently left out of your post that PDs ranked 18 (yes, eighteen) different criteria as either being 3.8 or above. If you want to prove your point your going to have to be a little more specific my 4th year friend.

LOL you do realize that your argument is really a moot point. Your entire conversation was based on the fact that being a US allopathic MD student is inconsequential to the selection process. The fact that coming from a prestigious medical school is inconsequential to the selection process. Yet you yourself just posted data that suggested it was important. In fact as I stated above its more important than step 1 scores in Internal Medicine.

I also liked how you chose EM because it had the lowest score in terms of NAME BRAND medical school, but you failed to mention that US ALLOPATHIC GRAD was still 3.7. Let me throw some more at you:

Radiology:
US ALLOPATHIC GRAD - 3.9
NAME BRAND MEDICAL School - 3.5

FM
US ALLOPATHIC GRAD - 3.8
NAME BRAND MEDICAL School - 3.1

General Surgery
US ALLOPATHIC GRAD - 4.0
NAME BRAND MEDICAL School - 3.4

Also don't you know you shouldn't ever come to conclusions by reading someone's abstract. Always look at the data yourself. Silly resident.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I think one of the bigger questions you should ask those people who did not apply to the top places whether they would go there if they could. If someone had the chance to go to Harvard Medical School over a DO school, I guarantee you that most people would pick Harvard. There might be a person here or there that would go for the DO school due to family reasons/financial reasons/philosophical reasons, but I'm confident that is in the minority. Does graduating from Harvard make you a better doctor than a DO, probably not. What it will offer you is WAAAAY MORE OPPORTUNITIES.

I'm not sure why all your arguments are this plain, but I'm certain that if you asked anyone if they'd rather go to HMS versus State U. Med, they'd pick Harvard. No one is saying turn down Harvard for a DO school.

The same goes for everything that I just said about residency as well, probably even more so. If you ask the graduating seniors at your alma mater if they would rather go to Hopkins over a community program, my guess is if they got over the stereotype that Hopkins is a big scary place (which is not true IMO), most would opt for Hopkins.

Which is great since Hopkins is DO friendly.

 

[GMed]

There are currently three DOs doing IM residency at Hopkins:

http://www.hopkinsbayview.org/medicine/residency/currentresidents.html

I'm not going to bother researching the others, but suffice it to say, you obviously weren't looking close enough if three in one program escaped you.

LOLOLOL
Seriously.
You must be a premed or just starting DO school.

BIg difference between John Hopkins Bayview (community program) and Johns Hopkins Hospital (osler service --> University program)

Nice try though
Do some more research

 

[jboz]