White coat hate

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
PostCall said:
👍 one reason ancillary staff has been able to get away with wearing the physician white coat is because of the flippant attitudes as displayed on this thread and others about white coats. they realize we don't care so they keep doing it. think of it kind of like what has happened to FM/primary care...a lot of med students/doctors don't respect it or appreciate it as much as they do other specialties, so ancillary staff think they can do it too as if they're equivalent to primary care doctors. i know people are going to say that's a stretch comparing the two but it really is the same kind of attitude that causes it. it's a respect thing. if we don't respect it and hold it as something that's "ours" then others will happily encroach on it.
Click to expand...

Agreed - especially since everyone in our country historically associated white coat with doctor. Nowadays that's changing since everyone and their mother is helping themselves to it, but if you ask someone on the street "hey which profession wears a long white coat" they'll say doctor.

So people we work with latched on to this identifiable part of our uniform that people/patients see and lend trust, respect, and credibility to (either consciously or unconsciously) and start wearing it themselves to get that themselves, all the while saying "what's the big deal? so what? you don't OWN the rights to it, butchers wear white coats and so do scientists why can't we, stop being so elitist, you think you're better than us?!" and the ultra laid back too cool for school-ites pushing for a more casual uniform code (and work ethic, like it or not) DOCTORS are saying "yeah who cares man I let all my patients call me Jeff and I'm best friends with every nurse in the hospital and the only thing patients care about is results and the kind of doctor I am and gosh I'd have a seizure if I had to wear a silly TIE every day and man those white coats are killing patients with germs and gosh I'm totally awesome everyone loves how laid back I am and man I can work as few or as many hours as I want how dare you suggest my profession is anything more than just a job you can't tell me what to do" so of course we're losing this battle.

But there are some of us who want to stand up for the integrity of our profession and yeah, stuff like this may sound like a little thing, but it happens to be the most visibly identifiable part of a doctor's uniform and it's a sign of a larger problem, as mentioned above. Do I HAVE to wear a white coat as a doctor? No, of course not. I probably wouldn't care that much if I was never allowed to for the rest of my life. But the fact that other people are just perverting it to serve their own selfish ends just for the sake of their own ego is distressing.
 
JeffLebowski said:
Agreed - especially since everyone in our country historically associated white coat with doctor. Nowadays that's changing since everyone and their mother is helping themselves to it, but if you ask someone on the street "hey which profession wears a long white coat" they'll say doctor.

So people we work with latched on to this identifiable part of our uniform that people/patients see and lend trust, respect, and credibility to (either consciously or unconsciously) and start wearing it themselves to get that themselves, all the while saying "what's the big deal? so what? you don't OWN the rights to it, butchers wear white coats and so do scientists why can't we, stop being so elitist, you think you're better than us?!" and the ultra laid back too cool for school-ites pushing for a more casual uniform code (and work ethic, like it or not) DOCTORS are saying "yeah who cares man I let all my patients call me Jeff and I'm best friends with every nurse in the hospital and the only thing patients care about is results and the kind of doctor I am and gosh I'd have a seizure if I had to wear a silly TIE every day and man those white coats are killing patients with germs and gosh I'm totally awesome everyone loves how laid back I am and man I can work as few or as many hours as I want how dare you suggest my profession is anything more than just a job you can't tell me what to do" so of course we're losing this battle.

But there are some of us who want to stand up for the integrity of our profession and yeah, stuff like this may sound like a little thing, but it happens to be the most visibly identifiable part of a doctor's uniform and it's a sign of a larger problem, as mentioned above. Do I HAVE to wear a white coat as a doctor? No, of course not. I probably wouldn't care that much if I was never allowed to for the rest of my life. But the fact that other people are just perverting it to serve their own selfish ends just for the sake of their own ego is distressing.
Click to expand...

dude, stop being an elitist. just because you got into med school when most people couldn't and then worked harder than we have ever worked during your years of med school, residency, and fellowship to acquire all that knowledge and skill doesn't make you better than anybody! so check your ego at the door because we're all a "team" here. unless something goes wrong. then it's all your fault (even if it wasn't) cuz it was your patient afterall. but as long as it's easy and smooth sailing we're still a "team", ok. we want it both ways, understand. we want to avoid all the years of education and sacrifice but still want to strut around in the long white coat like we're on the same level, and we expect to be treated as such by both you and the patients. don't you dare pull the "doctor" card or i'll write you up and play passive-aggressive games like waking you up in the middle of the night with b.s. calls to show you how petty i can be! why haven't you ever brought a box of donuts to appease us like the other residents have?
 
PostCall said:
dude, stop being an elitist. just because you got into med school when most people couldn't and then worked harder than we have ever worked during your years of med school, residency, and fellowship to acquire all that knowledge and skill doesn't make you better than anybody! so check your ego at the door because we're all a "team" here. unless something goes wrong. then it's all your fault (even if it wasn't) cuz it was your patient afterall. but as long as it's easy and smooth sailing we're still a "team", ok. we want it both ways, understand. we want to avoid all the years of education and sacrifice but still want to strut around in the long white coat like we're on the same level, and we expect to be treated as such by both you and the patients. don't you dare pull the "doctor" card or i'll write you up and play passive-aggressive games like waking you up in the middle of the night with b.s. calls to show you how petty i can be! why haven't you ever brought a box of donuts to appease us like the other residents have?
Click to expand...

That bolded phrase right there is the biggest load of BS that has entered medical practice since Homan's sign.

We are told that the issue is that all other ancillary services are important, and without them doctors cannot provide patient care effectively. While I respect that, the insidious issue of "team" medicine is that ancillary services are trying to claim more respect, pay, and responsibility than their positions allow. The first step in doing this is to knock doctors down a few pegs(since trying to rise to their level is far too difficult), and to appear equivalent to them in dress and in how they are treated by other staff members. Next thing you know, nurses will say they're doctors...oh...that's already happened.

Back in the 70s and 80s, there were doctor's lounges that only physicians could enter, because their rigorous training and important responsibility was respected. Nurses would never give doctors attitude, and if a doctor entered the room everyone would listen because the doctor was the leader of the team and the responsibility of the patients was attributed to him. Nurses wore white uniforms with the accompanying hat. The boundaries between leader and follower were respected.

Now everyone wears the white coat and nurses are trying to be doctors through legislation. We let it get too far.

Again though I respect ancillary services, they need to gain some perspective. Though they are necessary for patient care, it does not equate that they are important. Every "team" has a coach and a GM who the players answer to.
 
Last edited:
cartoondoc said:
I know. I'm really devastated that I'm not as witty as you are.

All right, enough of this. Sheesh, why are some people on SDN so bitchy? Do you think they're like this in real life or does being online just bring out the worst in people? I mean, you ask an earnest question and then out of nowhere, people (doctors! attendings!) are like, "The answer is because you suck." It's kind of disturbing.
Click to expand...

Where did anyone say that you suck?

We're not talking about your cartoons, are we? 😉
 
Whether you love it or not probably has more to do with how you looked at them entering into the field more than any research. Aside from not seeing them much growing up, I still feel uncomfortable being surrounded by a ton of people wearing them. The one major benefit to whitecoats for me is that I can't afford to get my shirts dry cleaned often and don't really have the leisurely time or will to starch and iron my shirts, so it does hide the slightly wrinkly shirt well.
 
LukeWhite said:
Even hospitals that go to the extreme in professional dress disagree:
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/3380.html

There are plenty professions in which the completeness of one's costume is directly related to one's professionalism. Clowns come to mind. Medicine shouldn't.
Click to expand...

The Mayo piece you linked to is all about professionalism and a "uniform." The wisdom of their decision to standardize on business attire rather than the traditional white coat is certainly debatable, but there's no mistaking their intent to project a professional image.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Substance said:
That phrase right there is the biggest load of BS that has entered medical practice since Homan's sign.

We are told that the issue is that all other ancillary services are important, and without them doctors cannot provide patient care effectively. While I respect that, the insidious issue of "team" medicine is that ancillary services are trying to claim more respect, pay, and responsibility than their positions allow. The first step in doing this is to knock doctors down a few pegs(since trying to rise to their level is far too difficult), and to appear equivalent to them in dress and in how they are treated by other staff members. Next thing you know, nurses will say they're doctors...oh...that's already happened.

Back in the 70s and 80s, there were doctor's lounges that only physicians could enter, because their rigorous training and important responsibility was respected. Nurses would never give doctors attitude, and if a doctor entered the room everyone would listen because the doctor was the leader of the team and the responsibility of the patients was attributed to him. Nurses wore white uniforms with the accompanying hat. The boundaries between leader and follower were respected.

Now everyone wears the white coat and nurses are trying to be doctors through legislation. We let it get too far.

Again though I respect ancillary services, they need to gain some perspective. Though they are necessary for patient care, it does not equate that they are important. Every "team" has a coach and a GM who the players answer to.
Click to expand...

i was going to give a lengthy rebuttal to your outrageous arrogance but my shift ends in a minute and my commitment to my "team" and patients ends the second my shift does.
 
LukeWhite said:
There are plenty professions in which the completeness of one's costume is directly related to one's professionalism. Clowns come to mind. Medicine shouldn't.
Click to expand...

Clowns come to your mind. Is that the only thing? Is that the first thing? The first thing that comes to my mind with "costume" is an actor. If you say "professionalism" and "costume", it's a soldier.

Do you, LukeWhite, have the guts to tell a US Marine that his costume, which makes him look professional, is, in your mind, equal to that of a clown? I would believe that, since that's the first thing you mention, that's a just statement. I don't think s/he would really split hairs, while splitting your head open.

I wear a collared shirt and white coat to work; there's no question as to what rôle I play. As all of the nurses - bar none - wear scrubs, the hospitalist without the white coat also is clear.

And the clothes-as-fomites is something on which I've exposited before. What is a fomite? It transmits disease. Just because these things (ties and white coats) can be culture positive, where is the link showing they cause disease?
 
Apollyon said:
And the clothes-as-fomites is something on which I've exposited before. What is a fomite? It transmits disease. Just because these things (ties and white coats) can be culture positive, where is the link showing they cause disease?
Click to expand...

Doesn't sound like the Mayo Clinic believes it, unless all of their docs are having their suits dry cleaned every day.

Back to the subject of physician attire, here are a few relevant articles on the subject (attached).
 

Attachments

Last edited by a moderator:
JeffLebowski said:
So people we work with latched on to this identifiable part of our uniform that people/patients see and lend trust, respect, and credibility to (either consciously or unconsciously) and start wearing it themselves to get that themselves, all the while saying "what's the big deal? so what? you don't OWN the rights to it, butchers wear white coats and so do scientists why can't we, stop being so elitist, you think you're better than us?!" and the ultra laid back too cool for school-ites pushing for a more casual uniform code (and work ethic, like it or not) DOCTORS are saying "yeah who cares man I let all my patients call me Jeff and I'm best friends with every nurse in the hospital and the only thing patients care about is results and the kind of doctor I am and gosh I'd have a seizure if I had to wear a silly TIE every day and man those white coats are killing patients with germs and gosh I'm totally awesome everyone loves how laid back I am and man I can work as few or as many hours as I want how dare you suggest my profession is anything more than just a job you can't tell me what to do" so of course we're losing this battle.
Click to expand...

BEST run-on sentence. Ev-er.
 
I like my white coat, so I wear it, for all the reasons listed above: mobile office, general barrier function, easy identification, etc. But I got to pick pretty much every element of it: fabric, style, lettering and font. And then my program bought me three of them. So I don't have much excuse not to wear it, even if wanted to be a white coat rebel.

The only time I don't wear it is in the middle of the night. The ICU gets so cold that heavy-duty fleece is the only thing that will keep me warm. And when I get called down to the ED at that time of night, even though the staff all know who I am, it can be hard to convince the patients that I'm actually the doctor, and not the nurse. Plus I can't carry as much stuff with me in my fleece.

I really think we need white coats made of fleece. That would solve the problem nicely.
 
Wow. I'm a little surprised at how a question about whether it's necessary to wear a white coat has elicited the true feelings from a lot of docs here about the ancillary staff.
 
Blue Dog said:
The Mayo piece you linked to is all about professionalism and a "uniform." The wisdom of their decision to standardize on business attire rather than the traditional white coat is certainly debatable, but there's no mistaking their intent to project a professional image.
Click to expand...

I really had no idea that this whole white coat disease spreading thing is essentially a myth.

Just a general piece of advice for those who want to reclaim the uniform - you have to respect it first. That means you should iron the damn thing, make sure the collar isn't turned up and that it doesn't have pen marks from last week on it.

The white coat has been symbolic as the doctor's uniform for ages and anyone who says otherwise is either crazy or an ancillary staff member with an identity disorder. I mean, how would they like it if I showed up to the hospital wearing scrubs with multicolored bears and kites on it?

A few gems from the Mayo article:

Mayo also understands that the way employees present themselves sends a signal to patients. Patients don't encounter doctors in casual attire or white coats. Instead, the more than 2,800 staff physicians wear business attire, unless they are in surgical scrubs, to convey professionalism and expertise. It's a dress code that some outside Mayo have called "pretentious," yet we'd argue that it's no more pretentious than, say, the dress code for airline pilots. Airline passengers don't want to see their pilot in a polo shirt, and patients feel the same way about doctors.
...
A dirty shoelace might seem pretty minor, given the important work of caring for the ill. But a shoelace is something a customer can see, whereas medical expertise and technical ability are not. It's a piece of evidence, a small but integral part of the story Mayo tells to its customers.
Click to expand...
What the hell is this? Someone explain to me why this place goes the extra mile to spreads their butt cheeks so wide for their "customers"? Are you kidding me.. their dress code is BUSINESS ATTIRE? Where's the white coat? I would think patients want/expect to see their doctors in white coats and not like they just stepped out of a cubicle in a megacorp.

I think this has more to do with pandering to their "customers" than anything else - make the sick moneybag people feel like they're doing the doctors a favor by just being there. Oh thank you sick moneybags! Is there anything else I can do for you? How about a gourmet cappuccino while I shove this catheter up your urethra?

By the way, a hospital should look like a hospital not a country club. Leave it to Mayo marginalize the profession and throw the dignity of their doctors under the bus. I think they said it best:

In effect, Mayo Clinic doctors—just like service workers in many other industries—work in a uniform; it's a visible clue that communicates respect to patients and their families.
Click to expand...
 
The great farce about Mayo being customer oriented is the significant dearth of insurance plans they take. In a city like Phoenix where we have very little choice in the matter of tertiary care university hospitals, they no longer take Medicare (system wide decision) or BC/BS, as well as a host of other insurance plans.

If they really were so customer oriented, they would actually take insurance plans that a large segment of the population was on. Its about the bottom line of course, but I wish they wouldn't pretend that they are solely focused on customer satisfaction.
 
Winged Scapula said:
The great farce about Mayo being customer oriented is the significant dearth of insurance plans they take.
Click to expand...

I dunno...it's possible to be patient-oriented and at the same time be selective about the patients you see. We all do that to some extent. True, they do it more than most of us, but if things continue to get bad in the insurance realm, who's to say we won't be doing the same thing?

The real farce is that the Mayo has been touted as the Holy Grail of integrated health systems by the Obama administration.
 
smq123 said:
Well, that's a good point, and I do try not to wear it while driving....again, since most of the people around here are such bad drivers, I spend a lot of time yelling "WTF?!?" and flipping people off. 😳 It looks a little...odd...to see a physician doing that so angrily.
Click to expand...

😆

This post made my day.
 
Why do medical schools even have a white coat ceremony anymore? Seriously, what's the point of anointing new students with something they they have to spend the rest of their careers making excuses for?

Doctors instantly get accused of being elitist or egotistical for wanting to distinguish themselves amongst other staff in the hospital. If we work in a hierarchical system where doctors bear the ultimate responsibility I think their uniform should match their level of responsibility. Yes, I'd like to have an option of wearing a "uniform" I can be proud of that clearly identifies my role in the hospital and yes, I do feel entitled to that.

It's like we're fostering new generations of "apologist doctors", always having to appease those around them so nobody gets their feelings hurt. I think the rift between doctors and nurses is due to a vicious cycle lack of respect.. you fill that rift with a healthy dose of resentment & frustration and you have a hostile working environment.

Do doctors in the military see problems like this? Ultimately, the blame should be awarded to the Suits in the boardroom who think it's okay to have a hospital staff with homogenous/non-existant uniforms. And to the medical schools, either they should stop this BS white coat ceremony or have a white coat burning ceremony at graduation so you can symbolicaly set fire to any notion of entitlement or diginty that you think you deserve for having a medical degree.
 
patients know i'm a doctor because i introduce myself as such and because of how i interact with them. i also have a nametag that says MD. it hasn't really been a problem. the white coat is a functional item where i can carry my scutlist and pocketmedicine, my cell phone and beeper, and which protects my clothes from body fluids. I'm sure other health care professionals like it for similar reasons. I do think there should be a white coat cleaning service like scrubs so everyone can have a clean one each day. It's kinda gross how long some residents go without washing theirs.
 
Blue Dog said:
I dunno...it's possible to be patient-oriented and at the same time be selective about the patients you see. We all do that to some extent. True, they do it more than most of us, but if things continue to get bad in the insurance realm, who's to say we won't be doing the same thing?
Click to expand...

Point well taken. We DO all do it.

Sour grapes for me...I just switched to BC/BS and live within a couple of miles of Mayo and now can't go there.😡

The real farce is that the Mayo has been touted as the Holy Grail of integrated health systems by the Obama administration.
Click to expand...

They were until they dumped Medicare...now Washington is suddenly quiet on how great Mayo is.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Sour grapes for me...I just switched to BC/BS and live within a couple of miles of Mayo and now can't go there.😡
Click to expand...

Count your blessings. You'd probably have contracted necrotizing fasciitis from your doctor's Armani suit jacket, anyway. 😉
 
Rabbit Hole said:
Doctors instantly get accused of being elitist or egotistical for wanting to distinguish themselves amongst other staff in the hospital. If we work in a hierarchical system where doctors bear the ultimate responsibility I think their uniform should match their level of responsibility. Yes, I'd like to have an option of wearing a "uniform" I can be proud of that clearly identifies my role in the hospital and yes, I do feel entitled to that.

It's like we're fostering new generations of "apologist doctors", always having to appease those around them so nobody gets their feelings hurt. I think the rift between doctors and nurses is due to a vicious cycle lack of respect.. you fill that rift with a healthy dose of resentment & frustration and you have a hostile working environment.
Click to expand...

even though you do bear the ultimate responsibility as you said, remember we are a team. i mean as long as things go ok we are a team, but if not then you're on your own. your team's not going to be there to back you up at the malpractice trial, just sayin'. we're more of a "fair weather" team. and yes you need to apologize. or at least feign modesty around your non-doctor teammates or we'll retaliate by making your job difficult in various way that we know how. cuz that's included in our definition of teamwork.
 
Slightly off topic, but for those of you that have to buy your own whitecoats - where do you get them? I've slowly been transitioning from the scrub top/cargo pants look to collared shirt/dress pants. I'm thinking about taking the next step, but my last white coat was a piece of crap and I'm not sure who makes quality coats.
 
Arcan57 said:
Slightly off topic, but for those of you that have to buy your own whitecoats - where do you get them?
Click to expand...

You can buy them online and have them sent your office.
 
Moonglow said:
You can buy them online and have them sent your office.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of the use of the Internet to purchase goods and services. I was looking more for recommendations on what company to go with, or if someone had a particular favorite coat.
 
Arcan57 said:
I'm aware of the use of the Internet to purchase goods and services. I was looking more for recommendations on what company to go with, or if someone had a particular favorite coat.
Click to expand...

This is the one I wear, #423 (Traditional Knot Button Cotton Lab Coat)

http://labwear.com/products.asp?CategoryID=MENS_LAB_COATS

These are pretty much the same as the ones I was given during residency. Many of those old coats are still going strong, so they're very durable.

The only downside to 100% cotton is that you pretty much have to have them professionally cleaned and pressed, because they wrinkle like crazy. It definitely breathes better than the poly blends, however.
 
Blue Dog said:
This is the one I wear, #423 (Traditional Knot Button Cotton Lab Coat)

http://labwear.com/products.asp?CategoryID=MENS_LAB_COATS

These are pretty much the same as the ones I was given during residency. Many of those old coats are still going strong, so they're very durable.

The only downside to 100% cotton is that you pretty much have to have them professionally cleaned and pressed, because they wrinkle like crazy. It definitely breathes better than the poly blends, however.
Click to expand...

Me too. I've had those for residency and fellowship and love them. a little warm in the summer but otherwise great.
 
Thanks Bluedog, especially for taking the time to throw in the link.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
White Coat Debate
Replies
1
Views
2K
BoardingDoc
BoardingDoc
Natremia
Hate peds residency
Replies
36
Views
14K
SurfingDoctor
SurfingDoctor
T
  • Locked
White House propose student loan cancellation for frontline healthcare workers during COVID
Replies
1
Views
1K
GoSpursGo
GoSpursGo
P
White Coats
2 3
Replies
102
Views
14K
Crayola227
Crayola227
IonClaws
Does anyone else hate working in the ER?
Replies
12
Views
6K
Piebaldi
P
Top Bottom