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ratman7

Firstly, they deem you ready for medical school and capable of becoming a doctor based on your high GPA, top level activities, and high MCAT scores. Then, they offer interviews to be even more selective to ensure that the future of medicine is qualified.

They are selecting you and putting you on the path to becoming a doctor. Out of many, many people who apply and have the desire, if you have made it this far, they believe you have what it takes.

However, your accomplishments aren't something which reward you financially. What got you to this point was the hard work you put in and you have made it through the selection process. Yet, you still have to pay an enormous amount of money in order to continue down the path.

This brings me to my point. The system is something to be frowned upon. In spite of achieving outstanding scores, and your potential to become a doctor having been recognized by the admissions, you still have to pay a sky-high fare.

If we have earned approval to enter medical school and chosen based on evaluations of whether we have what it takes to be a doctor, we are still required to fork over tons of money to continue onwards.

My claim is that if you make it through the selection process, you should not have to pay for medical school. Forget scholarships, it should be free for everyone who has earned an acceptance.
 
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Doudline

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Everyone despises the system -to varying degree- but unless you were born a dual-citizen and are willing to move abroad for medical school, you're out of luck.

Notice how just about every Occidental country has made education mostly free except for the USA. Not a pretty sight.

Just wait until the student loans bubble bursts, and maybe real change will occur.
 

Goro

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Gawd, so much entitlement, so little time.

You've outdone yourself, ratty!



Firstly, they deem you ready for medical school and capable of becoming a doctor based on your high GPA, top level activities, and high MCAT scores. Then, they offer interviews to be even more selective to ensure that the future of medicine is qualified.

They are selecting you and putting you on the path to becoming a doctor. Out of many, many people who apply and have the desire, if you have made it this far, they believe you have what it takes.

However, your accomplishments aren't something which reward you financially. What got you to this point was the hard work you put in and you have made it through the selection process. Yet, you still have to pay an enormous amount of money in order to continue down the path.

This brings me to my point. The system is something to be frowned upon. In spite of achieving outstanding scores, and your potential to become a doctor having been recognized by the admissions, you still have to pay a sky-high fare.

If we have earned approval to enter medical school and chosen based on evaluations of whether we have what it takes to be a doctor, we are still required to fork over tons of money to continue onwards.

My claim is that if you make it through the selection process, you should not have to pay for medical school. Forget scholarships, it should be free for everyone who has earned an acceptance.
 

tea guzzling traveler

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@Goro would eat @ratman7 for breakfast... (literally, at least based on Goro's avatar and ratman's name.

But OP, it does cost a lot, and that is definitely of concern to many (most of us don't like to be with debt), BUT the reimbursements are high enough to virtually guarantee a relatively comfortable style of living. Plus, many get the added benefit of actually enjoying their jobs, unlike many in jobs solely designed to get them money.
 
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pageantry

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The only reason tuition should be free is if that comes along with a fully subsidized healthcare system.
 
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Spector1

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no one likes the system, its just what we are stuck with. you know, sellers market and all
 
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If you think the system is flawed, then change it! You should open a medical school that charges no tuition...let me know when you're ready to take applications
 
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jl lin

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UM, yes. I would have loved it if someone bought me my home too. But I was taught that I'd have to work for it. My undergrad was not cheap, and it would have been nice if someone would have paid for most of that; but I received a good education there. I am happy with it. I truly earned my honors there. The key words are work and earn.

For God's sake stop whining. :) Here:

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/student-loan-forgiveness-jobs-that-pay-off-your-debt/
 
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Strudel19

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Medical education is already subsidized to some degree. Have you seen dental tuition? My buddies are paying 100K a year for dental school. I'm no expert but I think that's close to twice the price of the more expensive private medical schools. That makes 35K IS tuition seem like nothing.
 
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I agree 100%. And doctors should work for the good of the people, not for "money."

Edit: /s
 
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Doudline

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It is fair to pay for a service. Education is also an investment. I don't have any problem with the notion of paying for something of value.
That's not the issue.



Tuition prices have been hiking at 3x the rate of the consumer price index, and over twice that of the housing market at its peak during the bubble. It's going up faster than literally any service or good measurable.

Attending college is likely worth it at the moment if you head to professional school or major in a technical field like computer science or engineering. But if tuition keeps increasing at a similar rate, in a few decades no one except the wealthy will be able to afford college, because it'll be absolutely valueless. The comparative return to even a high-school degree will probably be negative.

That's the real issue here. Just look at how many colleges have closed their doors in the last few years. The bubble has already started to crack, and when it finally bursts it won't be pretty.
 
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jl lin

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That's not the issue.



Tuition prices have been hiking at 3x the rate of the consumer price index, and over twice that of the housing market at its peak during the bubble. It's going up faster than literally any service or good measurable.

Attending college is likely worth it at the moment if you head to professional school or major in a technical field like computer science or engineering. But if tuition keeps increasing at a similar rate, in a few decades no one except the wealthy will be able to afford college, because it'll be absolutely valueless. The comparative return to even a high-school degree will probably be negative.

That's the real issue here. Just look at how many colleges have closed their doors in the last few years. The bubble has already started to crack, and when it completely does it won't be pretty.
I don't disagree that tuition escalation is ridiculous. I also have problems with the jump in SL interest rates to help finance ACA. It seems completely counterproductive, especially in light of the escalating tuition.

What I also have a problem with is the idea that someone else has to carry the full load of education. It is an investment. Should there be a little bit more chill on tuition rises? Absolutely. The rate of increase does not fit a reasonable expected return, especially not in the short run. Yes, it will get to the point where there will be little to no usable value. This, however, is different from how the OP presented in the initial post.
If the OP had presented the situation as you have, the conversation would not appear to be one-side.

Most folks I know have issues with the outlandish rise in education costs. The above graph speaks for itself.

( I am saying all this as a person in favor of the classical virtues of learning or even esoteric learning. At some point, however, there has to be more than intrinsic value added.)
 
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MrLogan13

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That's not the issue.



Tuition prices have been hiking at 3x the rate of the consumer price index, and over twice that of the housing market at its peak during the bubble. It's going up faster than literally any service or good measurable.

Attending college is likely worth it at the moment if you head to professional school or major in a technical field like computer science or engineering. But if tuition keeps increasing at a similar rate, in a few decades no one except the wealthy will be able to afford college, because it'll be absolutely valueless. The comparative return to even a high-school degree will probably be negative.

That's the real issue here. Just look at how many colleges have closed their doors in the last few years. The bubble has already started to crack, and when it finally bursts it won't be pretty.
I don't disagree with you, but that's not how the OP framed the issue. OP wants something for nothing.
 
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efle

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Yup. Unless you're one of those AA applicants going into peds. Remember, the system is working exactly as intended.
Peds even in mediocre areas still make enough to cover loans in a few years
 
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efle

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I don't disagree with you, but that's not how the OP framed the issue. OP wants something for nothing.
It's done his way in a lot of Europe. Doctors don't make 200k and so to keep med admissions competitive it has to be free or nearly free. So if OP were willing to get a free medical education and a middle-class income after, I'd see no issue
 

Strudel19

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It's done his way in a lot of Europe. Doctors don't make 200k and so to keep med admissions competitive it has to be free or nearly free. So if OP were willing to get a free medical education and a middle-class income after, I'd see no issue
I would prefer this model.

I know I keep going back to dentistry, but they're often paying close to 100K a year for specialization training, too. They might make double or come close to tripling their salary, but man, a 700K education pathway looks daunting.
 
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Psai

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Not sure why so many of you are defending the outsize cost of medical education. They manage to train docs for much cheaper in other countries. Cost of education has nothing to do with future earnings. And it is getting much more expensive as the years go by when the quality is deteriorating precipitously. They teach you all this crap that you dont need to know but dont teach you how to take a history or physical properly. They throw fake patients at you with fake diseases and no acting skills when there are plenty of real patients with real diseases to learn from. They expect you to see so many patients and waste your time with useless documentation instead of giving you time to really know your patient and understand their disease and how it affects them. Then they allow other people to try to usurp our role, wearing our garb, calling themselves doctors in some sick joke that personifies our ailing health care system
 

pageantry

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Not sure why so many of you are defending the outsize cost of medical education. They manage to train docs for much cheaper in other countries. Cost of education has nothing to do with future earnings. And it is getting much more expensive as the years go by when the quality is deteriorating precipitously. They teach you all this crap that you dont need to know but dont teach you how to take a history or physical properly. They throw fake patients at you with fake diseases and no acting skills when there are plenty of real patients with real diseases to learn from. They expect you to see so many patients and waste your time with useless documentation instead of giving you time to really know your patient and understand their disease and how it affects them. Then they allow other people to try to usurp our role, wearing our garb, calling themselves doctors in some sick joke that personifies our ailing health care system
Why are they doing it that way? Let's overhaul this mutha!
 

Gandyy

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Not sure why so many of you are defending the outsize cost of medical education. They manage to train docs for much cheaper in other countries. Cost of education has nothing to do with future earnings. And it is getting much more expensive as the years go by when the quality is deteriorating precipitously. They teach you all this crap that you dont need to know but dont teach you how to take a history or physical properly. They throw fake patients at you with fake diseases and no acting skills when there are plenty of real patients with real diseases to learn from. They expect you to see so many patients and waste your time with useless documentation instead of giving you time to really know your patient and understand their disease and how it affects them. Then they allow other people to try to usurp our role, wearing our garb, calling themselves doctors in some sick joke that personifies our ailing health care system
lmao. I'm not in medical school, but I actually want to say that this is probably all true. But hold on now, when you say "allow other people to try to usurp our role, wearing our garb, calling themselves doctors in some sick joke",

are you referring to Nurse practitioners and PA's?

Edit: Also there is much truth to training doctor costs being cheaper in other countries. You can go to India, Pakistan, Australia and many other Eastern Hempisphere regions to get your full medical education in 100k US dollars or less.
 

jl lin

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Yes. Good point. Let's compare the cost of medical education/training in other nations in comparison to the US.

But remember also, it's not just medical and graduate education that is obscene. It's also undergrad at many schools in the US.

And educational books and supplies are big $$$$ sucker too. There needs to be some reasonable cap on those escalating costs as well.
 
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UNMedGa

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First thing I thought of when I saw the title.

Anyways, you raise a big issue. Many countries pay their doctors less, but give them state sponsored medical education. They pay for this by having higher taxes than we have.

People have been debating this for a while now. It depends on what you think is worth it. I'd personally be ok with the way it is currently if they would just cap student loan interest at 2%.
 
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WingedOx

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I am so glad to see that the next generation will be the one to save the world :D
I'm saving the world, but I'm making six figures doing it.
 
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WingedOx

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First thing I thought of when I saw the title.

Anyways, you raise a big issue. Many countries pay their doctors less, but give them state sponsored medical education. They pay for this by having higher taxes than we have.

People have been debating this for a while now. It depends on what you think is worth it. I'd personally be ok with the way it is currently if they would just cap student loan interest at 2%.
heh, posted this last week, but time to whip it out again...

 
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Gauss44

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(distancing post from lisa simpson so it will not appear to be her caption)

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Making medical school free will NOT help those who cannot financially afford to get accepted. System is broken, as many systems are. Almost every single factor in the selection process can be bought by hiring tutors, test prep, interview prep, paying for internships, having professionals author personal statements and secondaries, etc. To point out the obvious, just because this can and does happen, doesn't mean that all successful candidates did this. Some did; some didn't.
 
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efle

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(distancing post from lisa simpson so it will not appear to be her caption)






Making medical school free will NOT help those who cannot financially afford to get accepted. System is broken, as many systems are. Almost every single factor in the selection process can be bought by hiring tutors, test prep, interview prep, paying for internships, having professionals author personal statements and secondaries, etc. To point out the obvious, just because this can and does happen, doesn't mean that all successful candidates did this. Some did; some didn't.
Do you actually believe someone with a mediocre mind and/or poor work ethic can be tutored into straight A's and a competitive MCAT? You don't buy your way in here. Money is a convenience in the process, not some end-all be-all governing factor.
 
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Gauss44

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Do you actually believe someone with a mediocre mind and/or poor work ethic can be tutored into straight A's and a competitive MCAT? You don't buy your way in here. Money is a convenience in the process, not some end-all be-all governing factor.
My post reads, "Almost every single factor..."
 

raindropx

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Do you actually believe someone with a mediocre mind and/or poor work ethic can be tutored into straight A's and a competitive MCAT? You don't buy your way in here. Money is a convenience in the process, not some end-all be-all governing factor.
Money does offer a huge advantage in every way from early education till interview preparation. Those who come from poverty understand the benefits that wealthy/middle class get in every step of the process; I'm not just talking about medical school stuff. It starts off way back when you begin school.
 
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efle

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Money does offer a huge advantage in every way from early education till interview preparation. Those who come from poverty understand the benefits that wealthy/middle class get in every step of the process; I'm not just talking about medical school stuff. It starts off way back when you begin school.
I should clarify. Severe lack of money can certainly hold someone back when growing up. Excessive money cannot boost an average mind into top 1/5th of the MCAT distribution however, or instill a good work ethic. And it is very possible for bright kids with little money to get cheap/free college, and through loans and fee waivers afford to apply - though again I recognize many people are denied even getting to the college app stage by the conditions they're born into.
 

efle

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My post reads, "Almost every single factor..."
And by almost every factor, you mean a couple of factors (maybe some cooler ECs?), but not the factors that are by far the dominant ones
 

allantois

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And by almost every factor, you mean a couple of factors (maybe some cooler ECs?), but not the factors that are by far the dominant ones
And this is why we see so many med students from poor backgrounds?

It's not even the ability to hire a tutor; it's having the environment and privilege to be able to devote yourself to learning and not having to worry whether you will have food on the table tonight.
 

ZedsDed

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Do you actually believe someone with a mediocre mind and/or poor work ethic can be tutored into straight A's and a competitive MCAT? You don't buy your way in here. Money is a convenience in the process, not some end-all be-all governing factor.
Inserting my opinion even though no one asked for it! Define mediocre. Depending on the institution, I don't think straight-A's require a superior intellect, just a satisfactory one. I would say ditto for barely MD-acceptable MCAT scores (~28.)
 

raindropx

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I should clarify. Severe lack of money can certainly hold someone back when growing up. Excessive money cannot boost an average mind into top 1/5th of the MCAT distribution however, or instill a good work ethic. And it is very possible for bright kids with little money to get cheap/free college, and through loans and fee waivers afford to apply - though again I recognize many people are denied even getting to the college app stage by the conditions they're born into.
Yes but many are not eligible for those loans or scholarships due to being illegal immigrants or holding a specific international status.
 
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