Who else despises the system?

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And this is why we see so many med students from poor backgrounds?

It's not even the ability to hire a tutor; it's having the environment and privilege to be able to devote yourself to learning and not having to worry whether you will have food on the table tonight.
There have been studies showing that for those individuals with IQ scores at the tail-ends of the bell curve (extremely high or extremely low), environmental variables have little effect on outcomes in life. For the rest of us environment does play a role, to greater and lesser extents.

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Inserting my opinion even though no one asked for it! Define mediocre. Depending on the institution, I don't think straight-A's require a superior intellect, just a satisfactory one. I would say ditto for barely MD-acceptable MCAT scores (~28.)
Some peoples strengths simply don't lie in academics, and I think he was referring to these individuals who are intelligent in other areas
 
And this is why we see so many med students from poor backgrounds?

It's not even the ability to hire a tutor; it's having the environment and privilege to be able to devote yourself to learning and not having to worry whether you will have food on the table tonight.
This is the reciprocal of my argument, which I do not hold true. I agree lack of money can prevent reaching college at all. I do not agree that extra money can make someone brilliant and hardworking - so I do not believe the process can be bought.
 
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Some peoples strengths simply don't lie in academics, and I think he was referring to these individuals who are intelligent in other areas
Intelligence is multi-demensional, sure. But if they are lacking in intellectual-ability in the academic arena, then the effect is the same as for the all-around dull.
 
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Inserting my opinion even though no one asked for it! Define mediocre. Depending on the institution, I don't think straight-A's require a superior intellect, just a satisfactory one. I would say ditto for barely MD-acceptable MCAT scores (~28.)
Keep in mind the population - people who made it into university and survived all the prereqs with strong enough grades to want to sit for the MCAT. Even being median in that crowd is quite a feat, and not something money can guarantee to someone 50th percentile in the general population.
 
Intelligence is multi-demensional, sure. But if they are lacking in intellectual-ability in the academic arena, then the effect is the same as for the all-around dull.
That defies the very definition of multi dimensional intelligence
 
That defies the very definition of multi dimensional intelligence
How? I know some amazing artists who dropped out of college.
 
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Keep in mind the population - people who made it into university and survived all the prereqs with strong enough grades to want to sit for the MCAT. Even being median in that crowd is quite a feat, and not something money can guarantee to someone 50th percentile in the general population.
I understand. But I don't think the intellect of the average applicant is high enough to neutralize environmental factors (something like 135+.)
 
A few points I would like to make. First of all, you seem to have some level of disdain not only for the money itself, but for the difficulty of getting in and work ethic required, not to mention the difficulty of the job, med school, and the work ethic required just on a day to day basis once in med school. If medicine was so easy, doctors would not be making 150k-500k/year. Secondly, yes it costs a lot of money, more then most other professional doctorate schools, but MD is a unique professional doctorate in that it is one of the only profession doctorates that allows you to do actual research with it, and the research will be looked at well, though many MDs who do research are also PhDs. That is besides the point. The system works in the long run obviously since the US produces the most medical research/capita, the best medical graduates both post grad and post residency, and we also tend to have the best doctors in the world, however the healthcare system does not allow the best doctors to be accessible to everyone since insurance companie essentially dictate whether you to a crappy doc or a good doc. I do see your point, but nothing will change until the student debt bubble bursts. Private funding is what keeps places running. Whether people like it or not, the bubble bursting is not a good answer, it could have very harmful effects, like universites going bankrupt, hospital flailing since universities are associated with them and essentially are their "boss"
 
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I understand. But I don't think the intellect of the average applicant is high enough to neutralize environmental factors (something like 135+.)
Right, I guess I still haven't been clear. People have a limit, and how far towards that limit they get to develop towards is heavily dependent on environment. For middle class and above people develop very near their limits. I believe extreme poverty among other things (like substance abuse) can very much hold people back from developing fully. I do not believe wealth can allow anyone to overcome having a very average limit however. If someone who lived a decent middle class life was a B student and got a 20 on the MCAT, I don't think having them instead grow up in the upper class would produce a strong candidate.

So if someone says the process can be bought I disagree. Some money may very well be necessary for a lot of people. For nobody is a pile of cash going to be sufficient.
 
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Temporary ban for raindrop. Wonder what she said.
Wonder why it wasn't permanent.
raindropx said:
No. Your job as a physician is to help patients. They pay a large sum of money so you can help them. They shouldn't have to give a **** if they are violating your beliefs because your job is to serve them and get compensated in return. And if you cannot serve them, then refer them to someone who can. It is absolutely NOT okay to force your opinions on patients, but yes it is okay the other way around, regardless of how unfair it sounds. If you choose a medical career, commit to serving patients, not yourself.
 
Right, I guess I still haven't been clear.
No, you're being clear. Where we differ, I think, is that I would say performance is not equally flexible in all intellectual classes. I probably should clarify that yes, everyone has a limit. What will differ by intellectual class is both the height of this limit and it's distance from one's default intellect.
People have a limit, and how far towards that limit they get to develop towards is heavily dependent on environment.
I don't have data for this first point, but I have seen the "average" college student (at my school anyway) swing from a 3.0-3.5 or so. Their performance is going to rely fairly heavily on a mix of time management, study methods, effort, and of course intellect. For the super-genius kids (of which I've only met a couple), they can sleep in class, put in minimal effort, etc., and still pull a 100% out of their ass. Now, you could argue that they would perform better if they put in more effort, but they are already at the ceiling, so the outcome is the same; visa-versa for dumb-dumbs. The more extreme one's intellect is, the more it is going to drown out other factors.
For middle class and above people develop very near their limits.
What makes you say this? While there is certainly a correlation between performance in high school and performance in college, it is not 1:1. Again, I knew plenty of kids that, with little-to-no effort, were in the top 5% of their respective high schools, yet merely average (B-) in college. Once they started seeing tutors, developed better time management skills and so on, they were able to rise to the top 1/4 of the class. Obviously one's access to these resources is going to vary based on $$$ available.
I believe extreme poverty among other things (like substance abuse) can very much hold people back from developing fully.
I agree.
I do not believe wealth can allow anyone to overcome having a very average limit however.
Well if we are talking about a 100 IQ matriculating into HMS (barring veterans and the like,) then I would say that's probably true. The gap is simply too wide.
If someone who lived a decent middle class life was a B student and got a 20 on the MCAT, I don't think having them instead grow up in the upper class would produce a strong candidate.
I agree. Again, this would be a rather extreme case. The gulf is too wide.
So if someone says the process can be bought I disagree. Some money may very well be necessary for a lot of people. For nobody is a pile of cash going to be sufficient.
We are essentially saying the same thing, I think.
 
For the third one down: When I say developing/reaching limit I mean things like malnutrition, lack of interaction/stimulation when very young, late and little exposure to language development or symbol manipulation and so on, not so much things like time management skills in highschool and college. I think I was referring to development in terms of attaining your best possible ability to think, and you going a step further to also include ability to apply that brainpower.

I think we're on the same page overall !
 
Damnit. Foiled by Efle's sarcasm again.
 
So much emphasis placed on one test score by often pompus individuals that score in the mid to high 30's like it some pretentious MENSA card to prove one's intellect. I'm not necessarily grouping you as one of these individuals but I must say there are numerous factors that one needs to take into account before definitively correlating it with overall intelligence and success as a physician.

Having undergone successful surgery by a physician with a "barely acceptable MCAT score" among other reasons I am not a big believer in the MCAT. A 28 MCAT, years ago could conceivably get you into an IVY league school. A 28 today could conceivably get you into an IVY league school, particularly if one is the right designation. I personally received letters from schools congratulating me on my "great" 28 MCAT score encouraging me to apply, one of them was a top 3 school, but they merely made a mistake in their system believing that I was URM.

Do I have superior intellect? Relative to the rest of American population perhaps considering how dumb our country has become. But I by no means consider myself to be a genuis and if accepted to medical school I am sure most if not all of my peers will be of equal or greater intelligence.

Don't take my rant personally I get what you were saying, but this whole application process is starting to rub me the wrong way. My point is try not to place such an emphasis on one exam, especially an overall score where 33% of it is weighted by a subjective verbal reasoning score. Yes, I do believe that section is subjective and is perhaps why I did so poorly.
"Barely acceptable" is merely me describing how scores are viewed by AdCom's not making a personal judgement. Individuals who score >24 tend to do just fine on the USMLE.

I do have a higher MCAT score but I also have a lower GPA, so I'm in no position to be judging anyone. I believe I said in my post that I don't think I have a superior intellect.
 
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33% of it is weighted by a subjective verbal reasoning score. Yes, I do believe that section is subjective and is perhaps why I did so poorly.
If Verbal is subjective, how is it possible that some people consistently score top percent / 13-15 across ten+ practice exams while being able to explain their choice of answer for each question? It's not a section of subjectivity and luck, it just requires a different kind of reasoning than the sciences, and seems random/subjective to those that lack this type of thinking
 
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I don't hate the system so much as have concern re: disconnect between medical education complex and what the payers will expect of the products of the system. I feel for young people being charged lots of $$$$ for the training; at the same time as medical schools connive to jack up tuition, there are suits in board rooms (many without the intellectual chops to be MDs themselves) discussing: how little can we compensate our docs? How can we further commodify them and their services? How can we replace them with compliant, non-MD healthcare providers?
 
If Verbal is subjective, how is it possible that some people consistently score top percent / 13-15 across ten+ practice exams while being able to explain their choice of answer for each question? It's not a section of subjectivity and luck, it just requires a different kind of reasoning than the sciences, and seems random/subjective to those that lack this type of thinking

Perhaps he meant that VR is unrelated to any actual skill/knowledge/real application.

(Because subjectivity has no relation to fidelity, anyway.)
 
Perhaps he meant that VR is unrelated to any actual skill/knowledge/real application.

(Because subjectivity has no relation to fidelity, anyway.)
But verbal reasoning is a skill, just like mathematical reasoning is.

None of it is really directly applicable anyways! They just want to test your thinking
 
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But verbal reasoning is a skill, just like mathematical reasoning is.

None of it is really directly applicable anyways! They just want to test your thinking

VR does test some manner of cognitive processes, but certainly not "verbal reasoning".

That section is a complete mess. It's backwards when it comes to (literary) analysis. If you tried to apply any of its techniques in academia -or any other context really- disaster would ensue.

I think we should be striving for more than just testing "anything".
 
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I should clarify. Severe lack of money can certainly hold someone back when growing up. Excessive money cannot boost an average mind into top 1/5th of the MCAT distribution however, or instill a good work ethic. And it is very possible for bright kids with little money to get cheap/free college, and through loans and fee waivers afford to apply - though again I recognize many people are denied even getting to the college app stage by the conditions they're born into.

Many of these advantages do make a big difference by making smaller differences early in life, though. It's hard to quantify this (since the concepts and mechanisms governing intelligence is by no means nailed down by science right now), but I do think that if you're given more, and better quality, academic experiences earlier in life, your mental capabilities can be somewhat enhanced.

They've gotten better with the process of getting low SES people into medicine, though. With scholarships, FAP etc. it has become much more accessible. I think acknowledging it has gone a long way in helping people design it for better accessibility.
 
Many of these advantages do make a big difference by making smaller differences early in life, though. It's hard to quantify this (since the concepts and mechanisms governing intelligence is by no means nailed down by science right now), but I do think that if you're given more, and better quality, academic experiences earlier in life, your mental capabilities can be somewhat enhanced.

They've gotten better with the process of getting low SES people into medicine, though. With scholarships, FAP etc. it has become much more accessible. I think acknowledging it has gone a long way in helping people design it for better accessibility.
Connections of well off parents would help more I think than the extra money itself
 
I don't hate the system so much as have concern re: disconnect between medical education complex and what the payers will expect of the products of the system. I feel for young people being charged lots of $$$$ for the training; at the same time as medical schools connive to jack up tuition, there are suits in board rooms (many without the intellectual chops to be MDs themselves) discussing: how little can we compensate our docs? How can we further commodify them and their services? How can we replace them with compliant, non-MD healthcare providers?

I mean those are consideration-worthy points.

Just like our burgeoning US debt, which has been beyond obscene for quite some time, so too with higher education. At some point, the levee will break.
 
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