Who makes more? Endo vs. OMFS?

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Wow, this thread could possibly be the biggest waste of time. How bout we just settle this by averaging the d*ck length of all of the different specialties. Who's with me?

Please, do me a favor and use your time in a more productive way then defending your specialty's earning potential... go get laid or something.

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I can definitely tolerate the clashing egos and dick measuring if it means we get to have an interesting SDN thread about private practice.
 
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I just wanted to make a couple of remarks to several of the previous messages. First of all, I agree Endo programs are the most highly competitive of all the specialties. This is in large part to do the high levels of production these speicialty offices are capable of, and the desire to perform surgical procedures with only a couple years extra training. I am not sure of the current comparisons with Oral Surgeons, but I know it's close, and endo practices have a higher ceiling as far as what they CAN produce, depending on the market and region of the country. When implant placement becomes a more regular occurance in these practices, you will see these numbers increase even more. As far as I am concerned, an endodontist has the best diagnostic information to make the decision as to saving a tooth, or extracting it and placing an implant. They should be involved in that decision making process, and it will be ambiguous as far as I am concerned.
 
... When implant placement becomes a more regular occurance in these practices, you will see these numbers increase even more. As far as I am concerned, an endodontist has the best diagnostic information to make the decision as to saving a tooth, or extracting it and placing an implant. They should be involved in that decision making process, and it will be ambiguous as far as I am concerned.

I agree. But as an endodontist your involvement in that decision process should end with your recommendation for or against RCT. As the patients primary care dentist, I would then discuss with them their options for replacing that tooth, should it be extracted. If endodontists start placing implants, I'm sure they'll be loosing a whole lot of referrals.
 
I agree. But as an endodontist your involvement in that decision process should end with your recommendation for or against RCT. As the patients primary care dentist, I would then discuss with them their options for replacing that tooth, should it be extracted. If endodontists start placing implants, I'm sure they'll be loosing a whole lot of referrals.

I have issues with Endodontists placing implants....not that they technically can't do the procedure....but the problem arises when dealing with complications....and endodontist in not trained in handling infectious complications.....what if his/her patient develops a deep space infection? Are they gonna take that patient to the OR and perform an I&D? No...they gonna dump their mistakes on their local OMFS....and this is poor form...
 
As far as I am concerned, an endodontist has the best diagnostic information to make the decision as to saving a tooth, or extracting it and placing an implant. They should be involved in that decision making process, and it will be ambiguous as far as I am concerned.
Really? There are a few endodontists that we know who blindly perform RCT on teeth that have furcation involvement, on teeth that have severe vertical bone loss, or on teeth that have no remaining coronal structure. These cases are then referred to my wife’s perio office for crown lengthening procedure.:eek:

I agree. But as an endodontist your involvement in that decision process should end with your recommendation for or against RCT. As the patients primary care dentist, I would then discuss with them their options for replacing that tooth, should it be extracted. If endodontists start placing implants, I'm sure they'll be loosing a whole lot of referrals.
I agree. If the tooth’s prognosis is poor and it needs to be extracted, the specialist (endo or perio) should not extract it and place implant. He/she should discuss the implant treatment plan with the referring GP and refer the patient back to the GP’s office for tooth extraction.
 
You have all made very good points. I believe that the general public, being educated and proactive in their health care, are motivated to retain their natural teeth. Of course there are exceptions, case by case, and in different geographic regions, but I still believe teeth are extracted unnecessarily because of ignorance or financial gain to the practitioner who may not refer the case to an endodontist. One of my co-residents did a mass survey on this. She had four general case presentations and asked several hundred practitioners (from GPs and all specialties) what their recommended treatment would be, and you would be shocked at how many general dentists AND specialists recommended extraction! In particular, vital pulpitis cases which should be automatically recommended for RCT and full coverage.

Additionally, as far as the dentist-specialist referral relationship, I believe endodontists placing implants would have to establish a certain repor with the dentist to have clear understanding of placement of dental implants by the endodontist. That is a necessity. But as far as any complications for implant and their placement, there is no reason an endodontist could not deal with them, any less than any other specialist, considering the proper training has been accomplished. A weekend course does not get it done. But even oral surgeons and periodontists are relatively case selective. They should know when a more hospitalized setting may be necessary, if they don't have the means.
 
If I was a GP and I referred a patient to a Periodontist or Endodontist to SAVE their tooth, but instead that patient came back with an implant I'd be steamin' like a Hot Carl!!!

I thought those guys were all supposed to be saving teeth.
 
First of all, I agree Endo programs are the most highly competitive of all the specialties. This is in large part to do the high levels of production these speicialty offices are capable of, and the desire to perform surgical procedures with only a couple years extra training. I am not sure of the current comparisons with Oral Surgeons, but I know it's close, and endo practices have a higher ceiling as far as what they CAN produce, depending on the market and region of the country.


I dont agree that endo is the most competitive, nothing compares to Ortho. And I believe OMFS is probably more competitve than Endo. That being said, some of the hoops you have to jump through for endo can be tough, like post-grad GPR's, AEGD's and some mandate "X" number of years in practice. To say it is the most competitive; I believe is wrong.

Concerning a "higher ceiling", placing implants all day I would believe would have the highest ceiling. Many patients are now begining to have multiple implants placed at one visit. Aside from the fact that implants can be quite expensive (1500-2500) per implant, if you are doing multiple implants per patient, you have less turnover time and higher volume.

I dont pretend to know what all different specialists make, and people who do are usually stupid. But I do know that the periodontist I know personally who has limited his practice to implants and preprosthetic bone grafting, and is extremely busy, probably has the highest "ceiling" I have ever witnessed. He also is "I.V." sedation qualified and adds $500 onto nearly 60-70% of his patients. A phenomenol surgeon he "may" be ( I dont know ), a marketing genius he absoloutely is.
 
If I was a GP and I referred a patient to a Periodontist or Endodontist to SAVE their tooth, but instead that patient came back with an implant I'd be steamin' like a Hot Carl!!!

I thought those guys were all supposed to be saving teeth.

Sometimes, the GP makes incorrect diagnosis, he/she thinks the tooth can be saved by doing RCT, endo retreatment, crownlenthening, perio surgery…...can’t save a tooth if it has a vertical fracture, poor crown/ root ratio, or severe perio problem.

I’ve heard that the success rate for endo retreatment is not very high….. and dental implant has 90%+ success rate.
 
I just wanted to make a couple of remarks to several of the previous messages. First of all, I agree Endo programs are the most highly competitive of all the specialties. This is in large part to do the high levels of production these speicialty offices are capable of, and the desire to perform surgical procedures with only a couple years extra training. I am not sure of the current comparisons with Oral Surgeons, but I know it's close, and endo practices have a higher ceiling as far as what they CAN produce, depending on the market and region of the country. When implant placement becomes a more regular occurance in these practices, you will see these numbers increase even more. As far as I am concerned, an endodontist has the best diagnostic information to make the decision as to saving a tooth, or extracting it and placing an implant. They should be involved in that decision making process, and it will be ambiguous as far as I am concerned.

Yeah I will have to agree with Charles Tweed DDS...I've had quite a few patients referred to me from the graduate endo department at my school with recently endo treated teeth that needed to be extracted soon afterwards for either perio or restorative reasons which the endodontist didn't even consider (or if they did consider, they didn't bother saying anything about it in their tx notes, the scoundrels).
 
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I imagine the OP was asking average salary. Who knows what it is. The guys who are pulling in the most money probably don't advertise 'look at me I made 2 million in one year, move into my town and start to take away my business'. I can say that the potential is out there to do VERY well in all three specialties. The potential to not do very well is also possible.

There are so many factors to take into account that this question will never be answered correctly and to try is pointless. We all know someone who 'does 15 3rd surgeries in one day' and makes 'tons' of money. We also know the guy around the corner who sucks at everything from impressions to chairside manner.

The best conclusion is to do what you like, or what you are good at, and do it well. The dollars seem to follow. If they don't, get a business consultant and figure out why, tweak it a little and then hit it again until 10 years down the road, a little pimple faced highschooler will shadow you, assume you are the shiz cause you drive a BMW with a 'thumpin' system and come onto future SDN where we will all have 20,000 posts and ask this question again:

Who makes more money?

In which we will all reply:

"I do."
 
SDN = Blanket statements (my favorite word to use on SDN)

I imagine the OP was asking average salary. Who knows what it is. The guys who are pulling in the most money probably don't advertise 'look at me I made 2 million in one year, move into my town and start to take away my business'. I can say that the potential is out there to do VERY well in all three specialties. The potential to not do very well is also possible.

There are so many factors to take into account that this question will never be answered correctly and to try is pointless. We all know someone who 'does 15 3rd surgeries in one day' and makes 'tons' of money. We also know the guy around the corner who sucks at everything from impressions to chairside manner.

The best conclusion is to do what you like, or what you are good at, and do it well. The dollars seem to follow. If they don't, get a business consultant and figure out why, tweak it a little and then hit it again until 10 years down the road, a little pimple faced highschooler will shadow you, assume you are the shiz cause you drive a BMW with a 'thumpin' system and come onto future SDN where we will all have 20,000 posts and ask this question again:

Who makes more money?

In which we will all reply:

"I do."

Bravo. Well said.
 
They both make a lot of money. I think OMFS make more b/c it is a lot easier for OMFS to find jobs and stay busy 5-6 days a week. The daily take home incomes for OMFS and endo are similar…. approx. 3000-6000/ day. Some days with a lot of 3rd extractions, OMFS can bring home 10 grands.

And yes, pedo makes a lot too.

More pre-dental student comments here, but 3000-6000/day, assuming 5 day a week work and no call duties? That would be $720,000-$1,444,000/year. I thought they (OMFS) made at most $300,000/year. Not that I am interested in attracting medical malpractice lawyers or patients looking for dough (not to say there are not legtimate cases out there).
 
I will be entering my endo residency in 3 months. I have some perspective on the issue. They both make alot of money...much more than the average person. If you have kids to feed (Latrell Sprewell) they will not go hungry. Having said that.....I'm really sick of reading undergrad pre-dents argue about income. Dentistry will not make you rich...I promise you. Its the best profession on earth and I could never imagine myself doing anything else....but honestly...go into investment banking if you want a 2nd home and a jet. Preachy-yes. Honest-yes. The end.\

Tom Bosley
 
Dentistry will not make you rich...I promise you. Its the best profession on earth and I could never imagine myself doing anything else....but honestly...go into investment banking if you want a 2nd home and a jet.

Sorry for the new account, but what I'm about to say is not something I would like future classmates to know.

I am independently wealthy as a result of being a grandchild of a very frugal orthodontist. Dentistry certainly has the potential to make someone very wealthy; but I think that many dentists have the attitude that they work hard so they should play hard and fail to save to the extent that they should.
 
I’ve heard that the success rate for endo retreatment is not very high….. and dental implant has 90%+ success rate.

Where did you "hear" that endo success rate is low, just curious. Retreatment success rate is very high and 90+ implant success rates are in ideal situations (i.e. no bone graft, anterior mandible).
 
Jeeeez, what did they do for a whole hour? Even as a resident, I can do most sets of full bonies under 30 minutes, my staff can do it in 15-20 tops. One of my staff does 12-15 sets between 1pm and 5pm (in 4 hours) every other Friday afternoon. Six cases per day is NOTHING.....that's barely a morning.

I am the general dentist in a hospital with an oral surgery residency, and most of the residents can do 4 teeth in about 15 minutes. Now mind you they are not always full bony but those OS guys and gals are fast...no way would it take on average 1 hour per patient.
 
Please understand that dentistry is still a medical and health care-based profession, not an income gloating ego-booster. If you are waging your decision on specialty [or the overall field of dentistry] by the money you are making, rather than the satisfaction of knowing you are providing someone with better dental care, improved cosmetics, and simply allowing them ease to chew, talk, and smile--you fit more with a M.B.A. doing something else. Granted dentistry in the end, as most profession, is a business, but remember it is health care and people-based.

It is frustrating to see debates on who or what specialty makes more since every situation is relative: location, patient referrals, successful cases, patient/doctor relations and comfortability, communication, advertisement, experience, availability (office hours), and countless others.

Of course deciding on a career and focus requires examining your potential income, but debating it without considering the factors that really matters is pointless. Hope all is well...
 
You have all made very good points. I believe that the general public, being educated and proactive in their health care, are motivated to retain their natural teeth. Of course there are exceptions, case by case, and in different geographic regions, but I still believe teeth are extracted unnecessarily because of ignorance or financial gain to the practitioner who may not refer the case to an endodontist. One of my co-residents did a mass survey on this. She had four general case presentations and asked several hundred practitioners (from GPs and all specialties) what their recommended treatment would be, and you would be shocked at how many general dentists AND specialists recommended extraction! In particular, vital pulpitis cases which should be automatically recommended for RCT and full coverage.

Additionally, as far as the dentist-specialist referral relationship, I believe endodontists placing implants would have to establish a certain repor with the dentist to have clear understanding of placement of dental implants by the endodontist. That is a necessity. But as far as any complications for implant and their placement, there is no reason an endodontist could not deal with them, any less than any other specialist, considering the proper training has been accomplished. A weekend course does not get it done. But even oral surgeons and periodontists are relatively case selective. They should know when a more hospitalized setting may be necessary, if they don't have the means.

Why do you think endos want a chunk of the implant business???
 
Why do you think endos want a chunk of the implant business???

Dude, that is a simple question. Money.

A more challenging question is when you fill out your OS application in 3 years, are you going to put down this ability to dig up old dirt as a strength or weakness?
 
Dude, that is a simple question. Money.

A more challenging question is when you fill out your OS application in 3 years, are you going to put down this ability to dig up old dirt as a strength or weakness?

As a Thread Necromancer, take it or leave it.
 
A friend of mine thinks Endodontists make more than Oral Surgeons. I disagreed - it's not even close.

Just wanted to get people's opinion on this topic. :)

Per hour - probably endodontists.

According to the ADA, OMFS is the clear winner:

OMFS in 2006 income average was $393,400
Endo in 2006 income average was $346,000

While someone accurately pointed out that these income surveys are filled with bias, as people will probably not honestly report income, I think the bias is equal across both groups (i.e. I don't think oral surgeons are more likely to lie than endodontists and vice versa). Perhaps the best we can do is to say that these numbers give a relative assessment of the income of the two groups.

[Source: ADA Income from Private Practice of Dentistry, 2006]
 
Per hour - probably endodontists.
I've never met an endodontist that works more than 4 days a week. Is oral surgery the same? i don't know any out in private practice.
 
Per hour - probably endodontists.

According to the ADA, OMFS is the clear winner:

OMFS in 2006 income average was $393,400
Endo in 2006 income average was $346,000

While someone accurately pointed out that these income surveys are filled with bias, as people will probably not honestly report income, I think the bias is equal across both groups (i.e. I don't think oral surgeons are more likely to lie than endodontists and vice versa). Perhaps the best we can do is to say that these numbers give a relative assessment of the income of the two groups.

[Source: ADA Income from Private Practice of Dentistry, 2006]

Send me all the income numbers for the specialties (I think the 2007 report is out now) and I'll replace the info in the stickies that is 6 years old now.
 
Just take the NBA for example. You have shooting point guards earning $1million/year whereas power forwards earning $20million/year.

This is not to say that there aren't any guards earning $20 mil/year either. It's all relative to your skill, location, and ability to provide a service for a business.
 
$3000 to $6000 a day? I think your numbers are a tad off. At $3000 a day, that's an income of $570,000. While that's attainable for an oral surgeon, it is not the norm. As a general dentist (2nd year in private practice) I make a bit over $200k, albeit working as an associate. Let us assume that when I start my own practice and it's reached maximum capacity, I'd make a bit over $300k. Specialists average $70k to $100k more than GPs do by most estimates, including the ADAs. Moreover, your numbers just don't add up. Let us say, hypothetically, that overhead is 50% (in reality, it's more). For an OMFS to bring home $6000, he'd have to do $12000 worth of work per day. The highest-dollar per hour work oral surgeons do is wisdom teeth, as far as I know. A healthy fee for a full-bony impacted third molar is, what, $350 to $450 per tooth? At $400 per tooth times 4 teeth, that's $1600 per case. Add to that $400 for sedation, and that's $2000 revenue per case--best case scenario. The surgeon would have to average six full-bony wisdom teeth cases a day to average $6000 per day. That's very unlikely. I worked for an oral surgery practice before starting dental school where they averaged two to three cases per doctor. Chair time per case was about an hour. The rest of the work oral surgeons perform is less lucrative. And we're only talking about a fee-for-service practice here! Insurance will take a very healthy bite out of practice revenue.

You need to re-check your numbers.

You need to check your numbers. A close friend of mine made just under $1 milion last year working 4 days a week. He extracts 3rd molars in about a half an hour and has about 10 patients a day just for extractions not to mention the 2 or 3 patients he has each day for implants. get real.
 
You make a valid point about overhead. We GPs have much more of it (which is why I absolutely hate crown/bridge).

As for GPs not doing perio work, there are two simple reasons for it: 1. Dental students don't learn to perform it in dental school, and 2. the dental profession is set-up to make reason #1 a non-issue for GPs. Let's face it, most GPs only expand the scope of their practices a little from what they learn in dental school. Where perio is concerned, that's next to nothing--we learned about pathology of perio disease, SC/RP, and when to refer. When most GPs they find that they have patients who have problems they don't know how to treat, they feel that investing the time and effort to learn isn't worth it, and that it's more cost-effective for them to refer such cases out. Basically, dental schools teach GPs to be very limited in scope, and the dental profession helps them to continue to limited in scope once they get out. Only a few of us (35% as you suggested) realize the need to expand our practices. And the more I learn about perio and endo, the more clear it becomes that there is no inherent need for these specialties to exist (i.e. the way there is an inherent need for, say, cardiology, opthalmology, or pediatric endocrinology). I would imagine that once I start taking continuing-ed courses in ortho and learn to provide ortho services, I'll reach the same conclusion about ortho.

And no, I never wanted to be a periodontist. To spend three years in a residency so that I could 1. learn to perform work that any GP should be able to learn by reading books/surgery atlases and taking continuing-ed courses and 2. be rewarded with only a modest increase in income...it sounded silly to me.

The reason specialities exist is to train doctors/dentists to perform specific procedures at an extremely high level of competency which can only be attained through specialized training and repetitive exposure. The product is more predictable outcomes and fewer complications.

You my friend, thinking, you can dab in a little of this and a little of that are unaware of the standard of care specialities are held to and will realize that eventually through unhappy patients and complications. You're foolish to think that you can master procedures through books and atlases. If you were in the medical field, you probably would have already lost your license and killed some patients performing procedures without any clinical training and surely would have lost the respect of your peers. Fortunately for people out there, you are dealing with teeth and not hearts and lungs.

If your patients only knew the level of experience you have in the services you offer, you'd realize that what is important to your patient is the level of experience and expertise in the doctor performing the procedure. I imagine based on your logic for expanding your practice, you would send your daughter needing a nose job to a plastic surgeon who does tummy tucks, boobs, thighs, butts because you are impressed with his scope, instead of the cosmetic surgeon who performs nose jobs all day, everyday and had supervised training in rhinoplasty.

In fact, why don't you open an atlas and do it yourself buddy! The same level of service you offer your patients!
 
I just wanted to make a couple of remarks to several of the previous messages. First of all, I agree Endo programs are the most highly competitive of all the specialties. This is in large part to do the high levels of production these speicialty offices are capable of, and the desire to perform surgical procedures with only a couple years extra training. I am not sure of the current comparisons with Oral Surgeons, but I know it's close, and endo practices have a higher ceiling as far as what they CAN produce, depending on the market and region of the country. When implant placement becomes a more regular occurance in these practices, you will see these numbers increase even more. As far as I am concerned, an endodontist has the best diagnostic information to make the decision as to saving a tooth, or extracting it and placing an implant. They should be involved in that decision making process, and it will be ambiguous as far as I am concerned.


I don't get this.
I've long heard endo and OS people can make a ton of money by doing molars and 3rds quickly. My question is if there are enough patients to "feed" the endo and OS people so they can contiously charge those expensive, thousand dollar worth procedures. I've heard about those multi million dollar O.S. clinic's existence. Meanwhile I've also seen newly graduated O.S. men and gals getting offers around 160k. It's entirely possible there's a steep jump in salary once they pass the associate test and become a partner but how often do they reach the 500k or 1M mark?

If one can indeed bang out 500k to 1M easily as endo or OS, then why would ortho be so damn competitive to get in when you know you will prob be making in the range of 300k as a wire bender?
Is it because endo is "boring" or is it because OS is too tough on the body or too long of a residency?

Talking about salary/income is always a cliche and frowned upon on this forum, but as predent/dent, we get mislead a lot. It seems like there's always a "my cousin's a periodontist who makes a mil easily, therefore you should FOLLOW YOUR HEART and consider becoming a gum surgeon" story outta there just to lure those innocent dental students in. What's the truth?
 
Lets settle this once in for all, someone post the ADA Survey and economic research on different specialties. I think avg in 2007 was $200K for GP and $353,280 for a specialist. With OMFS ~$390K and Endo ~$340K (which may have gone down since the rotatry Endo came into play). For Pedo and Ortho and Perio I donot have the stats. If someone does post 'em so we can settle this issue.
I have a felling it goes something like this.
OMFS>Pedo> Endo=Ortho> Perio
 
Lets settle this once in for all, someone post the ADA Survey and economic research on different specialties. I think avg in 2007 was $200K for GP and $353,280 for a specialist. With OMFS ~$390K and Endo ~$340K (which may have gone down since the rotatry Endo came into play). For Pedo and Ortho and Perio I donot have the stats. If someone does post 'em so we can settle this issue.
I have a felling it goes something like this.
OMFS>Pedo> Endo=Ortho> Perio


Sounds great, but does anybody know what the post "ObamaCare" figures are going to be?
 
The reason specialities exist is to train doctors/dentists to perform specific procedures at an extremely high level of competency which can only be attained through specialized training and repetitive exposure. The product is more predictable outcomes and fewer complications.

You my friend, thinking, you can dab in a little of this and a little of that are unaware of the standard of care specialities are held to and will realize that eventually through unhappy patients and complications. You're foolish to think that you can master procedures through books and atlases. If you were in the medical field, you probably would have already lost your license and killed some patients performing procedures without any clinical training and surely would have lost the respect of your peers. Fortunately for people out there, you are dealing with teeth and not hearts and lungs.

If your patients only knew the level of experience you have in the services you offer, you'd realize that what is important to your patient is the level of experience and expertise in the doctor performing the procedure. I imagine based on your logic for expanding your practice, you would send your daughter needing a nose job to a plastic surgeon who does tummy tucks, boobs, thighs, butts because you are impressed with his scope, instead of the cosmetic surgeon who performs nose jobs all day, everyday and had supervised training in rhinoplasty.

In fact, why don't you open an atlas and do it yourself buddy! The same level of service you offer your patients!
I could not agree more, and I am a GP!!! I am disgusted when I see the aftermath of GPs doing procedures that they are not qualified to do! This unfortunately happens too often...
 
I could not agree more, and I am a GP!!! I am disgusted when I see the aftermath of GPs doing procedures that they are not qualified to do! This unfortunately happens too often...


This is true and I'm a GP. It is also true that a GP have the ability to do a procedure at a mastery/specialist level or better. But to have a GP be a master at all procedures in dentistry is a big feat and almost impossible to perform. Jack of all trades and master of none is commonplace. While a GP has a chance to practice one or a few procedures at mastery level eg endo or implant or ortho or any other, they can't master all to the highest degree (never say never but almost impossible).
 
This is true and I'm a GP. It is also true that a GP have the ability to do a procedure at a mastery/specialist level or better. But to have a GP be a master at all procedures in dentistry is a big feat and almost impossible to perform. Jack of all trades and master of none is commonplace. While a GP has a chance to practice one or a few procedures at mastery level eg endo or implant or ortho or any other, they can't master all to the highest degree (never say never but almost impossible).

"Mastery" is a tough term to be throwing around in this context. General dentists achieving mastery of posterior composites is a tough enough feat. I'm not talking doing it successfully, I'm talking about mastering the procedure (i.e., isolation/no salivary contamination, retentive cavity prep, incremental filling/curing, anatomy carving, etc). The only way to master a procedure is to do it a million times.

I will make this statement: the only way to master endo is to be doing it all day long for years and years - either as an residency-trained endodontist or as a general dentist who focuses his/her practice on endodontics.

With implants - many can drill a hole in the bone and drop in an implant, but there are only a handfuls of masters - they have names like Per-Ingvar Branemark.

Mastery? People can practice for fifty years and master nothing. Maybe "standard of care proficiency" would be more apt.

That being said, I agree with what you're saying. ;)
 
Hey Cheesetoast

I agree with your thoughts. What scares me are the Super Generalist Dentist who believe they can do everything and have a office policy of NO REFERRAL.
Half hour endo in # 2 with incompletely filled canals, surgical extractions leaving half the root and full mouth recons with an anterior open bite are acceptable to them.:wtf:
Drawing the line and knowing when to back off is a part of mastery

30 years of practice does not necessarily translate in predictable outcomes but sure gets you that Maserati :soexcited:in the garage.
 
Oh yeah, but the Maserati would be sweet! My wife interviewed with a bunch of docs for an associate position for when I start my residency. One guy was asking her about her proficiency with molar endo, surgical ext's, ortho bracket placement, etc. Of course, being a relatively new dentist, she told him she happily refers the tough stuff out. The guy's response was: "everything you refer is money walking out the door." Yikes! :eek:

I asked him how his molar endo was - he said "eh, I'm about average". Double Yikes! :eek::eek:

I think the title of this thread should be: Who Makes More Money - OMS, Endo, or Shyster GPs? :scared:
 
A couple of things:

1) 4 FBI's in 3rds cases is more the exception than the norm from what I've seen and from what I've been told by practicing OMFS. Usually see at least 1 or 2 PBI's if not ST impacted or erupted maxillary 3rds. This definitely cuts down extraction time and total surgical time for a set of thirds.

2) Any OS that averages 1 hour for 3rd molars should either go back to residency or hang it up. Some of the toughest cases may take 1+ hours, but the norm for a practicing surgeon should be in the 15-30 minute range. Most 1st year OMFS interns can take out a set of thirds in an hour or less.
 
This is a really long post. I saw guys mentioned there is no reason for perio and endo specialists to exist. How about Prosth? No one even mentioned it. Is it too bad to even talk about it ?
 
as an oral surgery resident, I have mixed feelings about posts like this. On one hand, I think it's great that there is a good representation of OMFS as a specialty, as numerous residents from different programs around the country post their opinions. However, I do get a bit worried that we may come off as being a bit too cavalier. My point being, all the talk about oral surgeons making XX million dollars per year, who can extract 4 FBI in 20 minutes....things like this can potentially rub a lot of the practicing dentists and the dental students on this forum the wrong way. Guys, we have to remember that OMFS is a referral practice. Patients don't, on avg anyway, go on the phone book, look for oral & maxillofacial surgeon listings to get their wisdom teeth out. They normally go to their family dentists and do whatever they tell them to do. If the GP wants to take 1.5 hrs, and dig into the mandible under local anesthesia to get the wizzies out, most patients will comply. If the GP wants to refer the pt out to an oral surgeon becasue he/she likes us, trusts us and looks out for the best interest of the patient, then more power to us...That's just the fact. The last thing we want our referral colleagues to think that (1) we are arrogant bastards, (2) we are getting massively rich of their referrals, and (3) that we think that we are better than them. I think we'd all be much better off if our colleagues think that, although financially comfortable, we can always afford to see more patients because we are not millionaires. We should be focusing more on how we can form a stronger alliance with our dental colleagues rather than alienating them by discussing our surgical prowess, which I assure you they are probably not that interested in.

Seriously, only those of us who are in the field know just how amazing this specialty is. No one, outside of the field, regardless of how many offices they worked or shadowed in, how many oral surgeons they've talked to etc will truly know what OMFS as a specialty is like. We shouldn't have to advertise how great OMFS is as a career. Let the ones who have the will to get thru residency find out for themselves. I think certain things should be 'trade secret' and I think income should be one of them. Besides, I'd much rather have GP's thinking that the periodontists are the ones who are getting truly rich off of their referrals, not us hard working oral surgeons. ;):D

BTW, no one should take the ADA income figure too seriously. How many guys out there do you think ACTUALLY reports how much they make? You don't think after all the tax loop holes and etc, that teh income may be a lot higher than what they report? For example, some guys who have their practice as a LLC write themselves a paycheck, and consider this as a practice expense write off....

==well said:thumbup:....
 
Is this still true? I wonder how things have changed b/t the two specialties since 10 years ago?
 
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