Whos in a better position?

[armorshell]

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1) As I said in the beginning: THIS IS WHAT ONE ADCOM TOLD ME. I have a pretty close relationship with an ADCOM and this is what he told me is the case for his university. This may not be the case for every school, butit is for that particular school

1) I started to count the number of times you referred to "schools", "they", "top schools", etc... If that's not a broad generalization, I don't know what is. You also mentioned several schools by name (Harvard, Columbia, Temple). Not sure if this guy is an ADCOM at all of those schools, but you get my point.

2) I did not do any "research."

2) This is obvious

3) Good for you for getting into top schools.

3)Thanks. Note that I mentioned that only to poke a massive hole in *this* statement of yours:

To ADCOMs, GPA is much more important than DAT (in general) because a high GPA is a better indicator an indivdiual's success on exam, etc -- If you work hard in undergrand, you'll probably work harrd and have success in grad school. On the other hand, if you do poorly in undergrand adn SUDDENLY do well on your DAT's, they might see you as a slacker who only "turned it on" for the big day. they don't like that very much. They'd prefer the person who proved themselves by working hard year round.

Oh, looks at that. "To ADCOMs." But that means just the one you know right?

4) Never said this was the case for every school and for eveyr situation. There are MANY factors that play into the admissions process.

4) See 1, end of 3. You contradict yourself a few times in your posts, saying that "this isn't the case for every school", then referring to specific admissions criteria which "schools", "ADCOMs" and "they" are looking for. Maybe this isn't intentional, but it seems like it is.

5) I don't know what a "chud" is, but I'm assuming that you intended for that to be an insult -- insulting somebody from behind your keyboard is a mature way of arguing.

5)You assume wrong. I don't think it's even a real word-I heard it on The Simpsons. And I didn't even aim it at you, it was direct towards everyone else.

 

[doc3232]

They (the top schools) certainly do consider what school you go to for undergrad. They know a 3.5 at MIT is different than a 3.5 from NoName U. They know someoen who goes to a top school and succeedes there is much more likely to succeed at their school than someone who does well at a less competitive school. The top school use the DAT to "separate" those with good GPA's or they give the people with lower GPA's an opportunity to redeem themselves. For instance, if someone who has a 3.3 gets a 23 or 24 AA, that will look a lot better than someone who has a 3.6 and a 18 or 19. At the same time, the DAT can be used to make up for poor grade in certain classes. For example, if you did poorly in Calc I your freshman year, but did well on the QR section, they will know what you're capable of doing math and that you're "improved" since taking that class...at the same time, if you bobm the QR section, but did well in Calc, they will know that the low QR score was an abberation and won't count it as much.

To ADCOMs, GPA is much more important than DAT (in general) because a high GPA is a better indicator an indivdiual's success on exam, etc -- If you work hard in undergrand, you'll probably work harrd and have success in grad school. On the other hand, if you do poorly in undergrand adn SUDDENLY do well on your DAT's, they might see you as a slacker who only "turned it on" for the big day. they don't like that very much. They'd prefer the person who proved themselves by working hard year round.

I am sure everyone who scores high on the DAT didn't have any background info on any of the subjects and just "turned it on" for one day...

 

[armorshell]

Also, I sort of agree with armorshell and I sorta don't. Like was brought up in one of the following posts, the DAT is pretty basic material. Everyone's classes covered much harder material than the DAT and I feel they require a higher level of understanding and intelligence than the DAT ever could. I still think the DAT is more about your ability to "show up when the game's on the line" kind of thing than a measure of intelligence or work ethic. The DAT is obviously very important, I just disagree that a GPA doesn't reflect intelligence along with work ethic.

Obviously there's some component of intelligence and work ethic in both a GPA and a DAT score. But there's a reason why you see people with 4.0 GPAs and low DAT scores and vice versa. How many classes did you have in undergrad where extra credit was available, homework/lab reports counted for >50% of the class grade, attendance was graded, etc... In classes like these, it would be wholly possible to have a 'B' average on the midterms/final, yet still get an A in the class. If the university, major, or whatever had lots of classes like this you would see "3.0 equivalent DAT scores" coming from 4.0 students.

This type of thing is what I mean when I say work ethic, maybe "time management" or "organizational skills" would have been better words.

 

[ozzie33]

Obviously there's some component of intelligence and work ethic in both a GPA and a DAT score. But there's a reason why you see people with 4.0 GPAs and low DAT scores and vice versa. How many classes did you have in undergrad where extra credit was available, homework/lab reports counted for >50% of the class grade, attendance was graded, etc... In classes like these, it would be wholly possible to have a 'B' average on the midterms/final, yet still get an A in the class. If the university, major, or whatever had lots of classes like this you would see "3.0 equivalent DAT scores" coming from 4.0 students.

This type of thing is what I mean when I say work ethic, maybe "time management" or "organizational skills" would have been better words.

exactly, and those opportunities vary based on the professor, so you could know the material as well as another person, but maybe you got a lower or higher grade because one professor didn't offer extra credit

 

[denner]

Obviously there's some component of intelligence and work ethic in both a GPA and a DAT score. But there's a reason why you see people with 4.0 GPAs and low DAT scores and vice versa. How many classes did you have in undergrad where extra credit was available, homework/lab reports counted for >50% of the class grade, attendance was graded, etc... In classes like these, it would be wholly possible to have a 'B' average on the midterms/final, yet still get an A in the class. If the university, major, or whatever had lots of classes like this you would see "3.0 equivalent DAT scores" coming from 4.0 students.

This type of thing is what I mean when I say work ethic, maybe "time management" or "organizational skills" would have been better words.

That's a fair point, but I just think there is a much wider difference in difficulty between teachers within each school than between entire universities as a whole. I just don't see a whole lot of difference in difficulty between State U. and BFE University at the end of 4 years. Outside of going to a Wash. U or a Yale or something, I think the overall difficulty of classes tends to balance out in the end for most schools (and therefore most dental students).

And thanks for responding to my pm 😀

 

[wizardsradio]

I'm not sure if this was already mentioned since I just skimmed through this... but I was wondering if anyone has thought if the boards being changed to p/f will have any type of effect on admissions. Meaning, I think that would favor someone with the higher gpa b/c it shows they can perform at a high level over a long period of time (as I've heard dental school should be seen more as a marathon rather than a sprint). And I think someone who even scores an 18 on the DAT can pass the boards with not too much trouble.

Another point that I've thought about is that everyone says that gpa between schools is difficult to measure; however, I see it somewhat difficult to measure DAT between individuals. I understand everyone is thought to have the opportunity to study as much as they want, but sometimes personal situations can affect studying for the DAT as personal hardships can negatively affect gpa. I would be much more impressed with someone who scored a 19 on the DAT while working full time and raising kids rather than someone who scored a 22 while having no other responsibilities and locking themselves in their rooms for 3 months. (I'm not saying everyone who scores accordingly falls into these two categories...b/c i'm sure some score a 22 with only 2 weeks of studying)
I am obviously biased since I scored 18 with less than 100 hours of studying only kaplan book (My wife and I just had our second child and I chose to spend time with them rather than studying an extra month for the test).
Anyway sorry to interrupt some of these riveting back and forth arguments, but has anyone ever thought about these points before??

 

[ozzie33]

I'm not sure if this was already mentioned since I just skimmed through this... but I was wondering if anyone has thought if the boards being changed to p/f will have any type of effect on admissions. Meaning, I think that would favor someone with the higher gpa b/c it shows they can perform at a high level over a long period of time (as I've heard dental school should be seen more as a marathon rather than a sprint). And I think someone who even scores an 18 on the DAT can pass the boards with not too much trouble.

Another point that I've thought about is that everyone says that gpa between schools is difficult to measure; however, I see it somewhat difficult to measure DAT between individuals. I understand everyone is thought to have the opportunity to study as much as they want, but sometimes personal situations can affect studying for the DAT as personal hardships can negatively affect gpa. I would be much more impressed with someone who scored a 19 on the DAT while working full time and raising kids rather than someone who scored a 22 while having no other responsibilities and locking themselves in their rooms for 3 months. (I'm not saying everyone who scores accordingly falls into these two categories...b/c i'm sure some score a 22 with only 2 weeks of studying)
I am obviously biased since I scored 18 with less than 100 hours of studying only kaplan book (My wife and I just had our second child and I chose to spend time with them rather than studying an extra month for the test).
Anyway sorry to interrupt some of these riveting back and forth arguments, but has anyone ever thought about these points before??

I see what you are saying, and I have said that before, but when we were debating this, someone responded to me by saying "if you need a surgery done that is extremely risky, would you rather have a doctor who locked himself in his room for 4 years and got a 4.0, or someone who did a whole bunch of other stuff, got a 3.0, but had another job etc.."

I know it is more difficult to study with other stuff on your plate, and I'm not belittling anyones accomplishments but in the real world you can't tell your boss "I would have made more profit than branch X, but I had a lot of other stuff to do," it is all about the bottom line.

 

[CrazyTeeth]

a better question to ask is, what does the research say about one's GPA and one's DAT predicting performance in dental school. there have been many studies on this, as the data and stats that need to be run are pretty elementary, and it helps adcoms make decisions on what to look at.

there was a point in my life where I would find those studies and post them here. but that point is not now.

HERE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL THIS DEBATE:

Research Survey conducted by the ADA... "DAT validity studies are conducted annually to explore the relationships among DAT scores, undergraduate GPAs (i.e., pre-dental GPA and science GPA), and academic and technique performance in the students' first two years of dental education. The most recent study analyzed data from 56 dental schools. The data were collected on students who were in their first or second year of dental school during the 2004-2005 school year. Because of differences in curriculum, not all schools were able to provide grades in every subject area requested.
The outcomes of a series of statistical analyses show that DAT scores are significant predictors (at the 0.05 level of significance) of dental school performance. The DAT scores demonstrate significant positive relationships with first and second-year achievements in dental school for a large proportion of schools. The information gained from these annual validity studies adds another piece of information for dental school admission committees to consider as part of the admission decision."

https://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/dat_spring_09.pdf

Please check out the entire publication on the ADA.org website everyone 🙂

 

[CrazyTeeth]

Contach:

I already did the work for you! LOL 😀

 

[UCB05]

HERE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL THIS DEBATE:

Research Survey conducted by the ADA... "DAT validity studies are conducted annually to explore the relationships among DAT scores, undergraduate GPAs (i.e., pre-dental GPA and science GPA), and academic and technique performance in the students' first two years of dental education. The most recent study analyzed data from 56 dental schools. The data were collected on students who were in their first or second year of dental school during the 2004-2005 school year. Because of differences in curriculum, not all schools were able to provide grades in every subject area requested.
The outcomes of a series of statistical analyses show that DAT scores are significant predictors (at the 0.05 level of significance) of dental school performance. The DAT scores demonstrate significant positive relationships with first and second-year achievements in dental school for a large proportion of schools. The information gained from these annual validity studies adds another piece of information for dental school admission committees to consider as part of the admission decision."

https://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/dat_spring_09.pdf

Please check out the entire publication on the ADA.org website everyone 🙂

Good link, Thanks! I'm sure that GPA will have a high correlation as well and Doc will come on with that link soon enough. So both have high correlation, back to original discussion. GPA is more important if you have the same school and major because it has a longer survey period with testing also included. The real issue is different school/major which I am also aware was not the OP's original intent:

Student A (from School X) and Student B (from School Y)

Student A: So how tall are you?
Student B: Not very, I'd say I'm a little above average in my school. How about you?
Student A: I'm very tall. Tallest in my school actually!
Student B: Wow! Impressive.

Student A and B meet up at summer camp. Student A is 5'9", Student B is 6'4"....

Of course there is the occasional Yao Ming, or the occasional tall person who hurt their back and couldn't stand up straight etc....

 

[CrazyTeeth]

Good link, Thanks! I'm sure that GPA will have a high correlation as well and Doc will come on with that link soon enough. So both have high correlation, back to original discussion. GPA is more important if you have the same school and major because it has a longer survey period with testing also included. The real issue is different school/major which I am also aware was not the OP's original intent:

Student A (from School X) and Student B (from School Y)

Student A: So how tall are you?
Student B: Not very, I'd say I'm a little above average in my school. How about you?
Student A: I'm very tall. Tallest in my school actually!
Student B: Wow! Impressive.

Student A and B meet up at summer camp. Student A is 5'9", Student B is 6'4"....

Of course there is the occasional Yao Ming, or the occasional tall person who hurt their back and couldn't stand up straight etc....

I'm not sure if you're still talking about GPA vs DAT? Sounds like your talking School vs. School?? It still sounds to me like if they had a height measurement contest (DAT) then student B would be taller (higher DAT)... even though relative to students in his school, he's just a little taller than average.

Doesn't that still mean that the DAT is the equalizer?

 

[UCB05]

I'm not sure if you're still talking about GPA vs DAT? Sounds like your talking School vs. School?? It still sounds to me like if they had a height measurement contest (DAT) then student B would be taller (higher DAT)... even though relative to students in his school, he's just a little taller than average.

Doesn't that still mean that the DAT is the equalizer?

Exactly my point🙂

 

[cmills66]

Just my 2 cents:

when i was talking to my pre-health adviser (pretty good one) about DAT scores, he said that having a 24 AA over a 22 AA is not as significant as one might think. He told me that that the DAT mainly acts to validate your GPA to make sure it's not a mirage. Thats what he said, but i'm sure each school has its preferences/priorities on which they think is more important. From my experience, i think the high GPA might be more important because of the way the DAT is constructed. In my entire college career, i had 3 classes that had multiple choice based question tests, while the rest were short answer/paragraph based. I think this makes the test alot easier b/c you know the right choice is there somewhere. Also, seeing all the choices makes it easier to answer the questions because you dont have to rely on picking the information out of your head somewhere. Also the DAT is extremely general compared with any university level science class you have taken. Its late and i dont know if im making any sense, but if i were an adcom, i would take the high GPA (barring they didnt major in basket weaving) and ask why the applicant's DAT scores were so low.