Who's Mad ?

[bob1234]

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Education curing drug abuse? I just came across this article and had a good laugh

"Cleverest women are the heaviest drinkers"


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/w...leverest-women-are-the-heaviest-drinkers.html

Don't forget alcohol is a drug, although socially acceptable. I know you mean that eduction will HELP decrease obesity trends etc etc, but it won't eliminate anything. Unhealthy MD's and PhD's still exist and they have years and years of education.

 

[Glitterbox]

Actually there is a lot of data to show strong correlates between education level and risk for certain diseases, even after controlling for confounders like race and SES, including things like birth weight and overall life expectancy.

It's pretty much accepted that poor education is related to poor health outcomes.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Freakonomics shows good support of these correlations.

 

[docB]

The whole constitution is moot. It's 2013. Pre-schoolers have iphones. I don't think the wooden-teeth crew saw that one coming.

Raise taxes even more on luxury items. Big time. Put it all towards EDUCATION. The public, by in large, is dumb. Dumb. The disparity in states with weak public education is even more laughable. How can we expect meaningful and positive change with millions of brainwashed (edit: Billions of brainwashed) idiots steering us? We need to rebuild from the ground up. Who the hell cares if it costs us a bit more. Drug abuse would drop. Diabetes would die. Obesity would die. Every frequent flyer who frequents your ER time after time would be no more (well, not really but you get my point). Crime would be reduced ten-fold (maybe?). You get my point.

America was built so that everyone can be a "HAVE." We are now a nation of very few "HAVE'S" and billions of "HAVE NOTS."

/rant.

I disagree. When Clinton raised taxes on "luxury items" all the blue coller union guys who built yachts lost their jobs. Like most things in this battle definitions are everything. Who's "rich" vs. "middle class?" What is one's "fair share?"

Education does not appear to benefit from having more money thrown at it despite what the teacher's unions say. Many of the areas with the highest per capita education spending are the worst performers. Success in education seems more to do with the socioeconomic status of the household than how much the teacher is paid.

I am pretty confident there are not billions of have nots in our nation.

 

[DreamingTheLive]

I disagree. When Clinton raised taxes on "luxury items" all the blue coller union guys who built yachts lost their jobs. Like most things in this battle definitions are everything. Who's "rich" vs. "middle class?" What is one's "fair share?"

Education does not appear to benefit from having more money thrown at it despite what the teacher's unions say. Many of the areas with the highest per capita education spending are the worst performers. Success in education seems more to do with the socioeconomic status of the household than how much the teacher is paid.

I am pretty confident there are not billions of have nots in our nation.

I wholeheartedly agree. EVERYTHING comes down to socioeconomic status. I assume you're referencing the WSJ article. But, the only way to REALLY change socioeconomic status is through education. I'm not just talking about some bullsh*t pay increase for teachers. Please. I'm talking intensive and extremely in-depth approach at recognizing young individuals who need help and REALLY giving it to them. I'm talking a complete overhaul to the way public schools operate. Have you ever seen some of the incredibly intensive behavioral therapy used with Autism. I have first hand. F*cking incredible. A miracle. We need to do THAT with our social programs and education. Not just a sh*tty raise of 3 grand for a bunch of mediocre social studies teachers.

We pour BILLIONS into breast cancer funding. NFL players, NBA players, every celebrity under the sun can't wait to "wear pink" and support breast cancer. It's sexy. It's the "in" thing to do. Pouring money into building our social support system and educational system (social > education)??? Hah, you couldn't find a division 4 woman's shot-putter or a D- porno "stand in" to get behind that. Hence, the gap widens.

 

[Druggernaut]

The whole constitution is moot. It's 2013. Pre-schoolers have iphones. I don't think the wooden-teeth crew saw that one coming.

[...]

America was built so that everyone can be a "HAVE." We are now a nation of very few "HAVE'S" and billions of "HAVE NOTS."

/rant.

If pre-schoolers have iPhones now, I'd say we have an awful lot of "Haves." I have a college degree and am on almost a guaranteed path to being a physician in a few years, and I don't even have an iPhone. I can't justify the expense. If they can, their parents are obviously doing pretty well for themselves.

Education does not appear to benefit from having more money thrown at it despite what the teacher's unions say. Many of the areas with the highest per capita education spending are the worst performers. Success in education seems more to do with the socioeconomic status of the household than how much the teacher is paid.

I am pretty confident there are not billions of have nots in our nation.

I agree. Look at your medicaid patients and see that they're not devoid of luxury items (expensive shoes, iPhones, and so on). There's a cultural divide at play. While I could afford a pair of Jordans and an iPhone, I chose to pay down tuition, invest, and take out less in loans. It's less fun, but it puts me in a better place in the future. I chose to go to college, do well enough to make it into medical school, and now work even harder to make sure I don't limit my specialty choices. I don't want to spend more of my waking hours in a library than outside of it, but I realize it will help me attain my longterm goals.

A friend of mine was doing a student teaching experience as part of her education degree. This inner city kid got an A on his test, when his dad came to pick him up at the end of the day, the kid ran up and excitedly showed him his good grade. His dad looked at it distastefully, gave it back to him, and continued on with his phone conversation. The kid was crushed. How do you think he'll do on the next test?

We can throw as much money as we want at education, but until we move away from this immediate-gratification culture of mediocrity, it's not going to matter. America used to celebrate hard work and reward it; now you're villified for doing well. As a society, we need to get back to punishing the behavior we don't like and rewarding what we want more of. Unfortunately, I can't see politicians getting elected on such a platform anytime soon, so taxes will continue to go up and academic achievement will continue to go down.

 

[GeneralVeers]

We can throw as much money as we want at education, but until we move away from this immediate-gratification culture of mediocrity, it's not going to matter. America used to celebrate hard work and reward it; now you're villified for doing well. As a society, we need to get back to punishing the behavior we don't like and rewarding what we want more of. Unfortunately, I can't see politicians getting elected on such a platform anytime soon, so taxes will continue to go up and academic achievement will continue to go down.

People vote for the quick and easy path to instant gratification. They rather the government spend more now, give them free goodies and tax "other people" so that they can continue living as they are. Any politician like Paul Ryan who wants to have a grown-up conversation about our priorities as a society becomes vilified and is accused of being heartless.

My opinion of the American people is that it's now their own fault. They deserve what they get. Those of us who continue to ring the alarm and call for drastic changes in how we do things will have the last laugh. Eventually the debt-fueled economy will come crashing down and all of these greedy, self-absorbed takers will pay the price.

 

[8654Marine]

Instant gratification is the chant of our society.

What do we want? -----Everything!
When do we want it? ----NOW!

 

[DreamingTheLive]

In the end, we're still some really lucky SOBs. Hopefully we can help stem the smallest of tides, a micro-ripple of sorts. One patient at a time.

 

[TrumpetDoc]

I do not like what I do enough to do this for any less unfortunately.

 

[Arcan57]

Equality of opportunity is a worthwhile goal for a society. The opportunity for social mobility correlates with a number of societal measures that are desirable. The pathways that allow social mobility in the US have been narrowing substantially for those without college education (with the outsourcing of manufacturing and the collapsing of the housing industry). Obtaining a college education has gotten more expensive, and lack of other viable options is leading a substantial portion of the current generation to take on sizable student debt to finance a degree their educational background leaves them no real chance of achieving.

While money alone isn't enough to insure an educated citizenry that is prepared for the challenges of our future economy, having to cut or drastically scale back "social programs" that have been proven to be effective in improving outcomes for disadvantaged young kids is not the way to balance the budget. Summer vacation is toxic to low SES students (they learn at the same rate during the school year as higher SES peers, but lose about half a grade level over the summer), but very few schools have the budget to stay open year round. Headstart and subsidized school breakfasts and lunches have incredible bang for the buck, as other examples.

I'll agree that we need to have a national conversation regarding spending priorities, and I'd like to see everyone involved in that conversation have a grasp of the current budget allocation. If you completely eliminated welfare, it wouldn't even come close to balancing the budget. If you want to slash support for the elderly that would go a long way, but I don't see the baby-boomers suddenly deciding to stop screwing the generations that followed them.

 

[name?]

My opinion of the American people is that it's now their own fault. They deserve what they get. Those of us who continue to ring the alarm and call for drastic changes in how we do things will have the last laugh. Eventually the debt-fueled economy will come crashing down and all of these greedy, self-absorbed takers will pay the price.

The only problem with this is it's not that funny of an ending, even if you called it in advance and warned other people. You just get to sleep on a nice soft pillow of "I told you so" when it hits the fan, and then pick up the pieces with the people who helped get us into this.

Regardless, I agree we deserve what we get. Unfortunately, neither party provides adequate options to get what we need because it's too painful a discussion and our sensitive ears probably couldn't take it anyway. So, I blame us for letting the pols turn it into al system that only funds its own two party lameness and scares independents into voting for the lesser of the evils. Not cool, guys. Not cool at all.

 

[GeneralVeers]

The only problem with this is it's not that funny of an ending, even if you called it in advance and warned other people. You just get to sleep on a nice soft pillow of "I told you so" when it hits the fan, and then pick up the pieces with the people who helped get us into this.

Ironically it's the people who vote for these policies that will be harmed the most. The "47%" who depend on government have no backup plan for when government has to cut back. They will suffer as the descend into worse poverty.

Regardless, I agree we deserve what we get. Unfortunately, neither party provides adequate options to get what we need because it's too painful a discussion and our sensitive ears probably couldn't take it anyway. So, I blame us for letting the pols turn it into al system that only funds its own two party lameness and scares independents into voting for the lesser of the evils. Not cool, guys. Not cool at all.

Agreed. The only one who makes any sense is Ron Paul, and someone like him has zero chance of ever coming to power.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Equality of opportunity is a worthwhile goal for a society. The opportunity for social mobility correlates with a number of societal measures that are desirable. The pathways that allow social mobility in the US have been narrowing substantially for those without college education (with the outsourcing of manufacturing and the collapsing of the housing industry). Obtaining a college education has gotten more expensive, and lack of other viable options is leading a substantial portion of the current generation to take on sizable student debt to finance a degree their educational background leaves them no real chance of achieving.

The single biggest pathway to social mobility has and always will be capitalism. We are doing our best in our country right now to undermine entrepeneurs, investors, and inventors, the ones who are the engines of capitalism.

While money alone isn't enough to insure an educated citizenry that is prepared for the challenges of our future economy, having to cut or drastically scale back "social programs" that have been proven to be effective in improving outcomes for disadvantaged young kids is not the way to balance the budget. Summer vacation is toxic to low SES students (they learn at the same rate during the school year as higher SES peers, but lose about half a grade level over the summer), but very few schools have the budget to stay open year round. Headstart and subsidized school breakfasts and lunches have incredible bang for the buck, as other examples.

Actually Headstart has been proven to be useless. While initially the kids in the program are achieving at a higher grade level, by the end up middle school their progress is identical to poor kids who don't receive headstart. A wasted, but well-intentioned program.

I'll agree that we need to have a national conversation regarding spending priorities, and I'd like to see everyone involved in that conversation have a grasp of the current budget allocation. If you completely eliminated welfare, it wouldn't even come close to balancing the budget. If you want to slash support for the elderly that would go a long way, but I don't see the baby-boomers suddenly deciding to stop screwing the generations that followed them.

Welfare is one aspect of debt reduction, however the biggest target should be Medicare and Social Security. Both of these are arguably welfare programs as nearly every senior gets paid out vastly more than they put in. It's also the most regressive program, as it taxes the young and poor to pay out benefits to the old and rich.

Personally I would gladly pay much higher taxes IF and only IF the government was committed to balancing the budget and paying down debt. I refuse to pay higher taxes just to fund the current "easy choices" made by both the voting public and our weasel politicians.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

The single biggest pathway to social mobility has and always will be capitalism. We are doing our best in our country right now to undermine entrepeneurs, investors, and inventors, the ones who are the engines of capitalism.



Actually Headstart has been proven to be useless. While initially the kids in the program are achieving at a higher grade level, by the end up middle school their progress is identical to poor kids who don't receive headstart. A wasted, but well-intentioned program.



Welfare is one aspect of debt reduction, however the biggest target should be Medicare and Social Security. Both of these are arguably welfare programs as nearly every senior gets paid out vastly more than they put in. It's also the most regressive program, as it taxes the young and poor to pay out benefits to the old and rich.

Personally I would gladly pay much higher taxes IF and only IF the government was committed to balancing the budget and paying down debt. I refuse to pay higher taxes just to fund the current "easy choices" made by both the voting public and our weasel politicians.

I think I am starting to like you.

 

[jl lin]

jl lin,

I think you also have to factor in those traditional students who are now the same ones complaining about becoming physicians. When a person never had a job before they have a warped sense of how much they should be compensated. As was stated physicians are not going to go broke anytime soon, if ever. The issue is not on compensation which there is little say on but in how much debt we get into in pursuing the degree. I'm a nontrad about to start a DIY postbacc and can say that it's a racket. Looking at med school prices in particular those med schools which seem to cater to nontrads the tuition is ridiculous. We pay for the privilege to play. Went to an open house where the Dean said exactly that. "I know our tuition is high but as a physician you will make money so it all balances out." It was all I could do from walking out. A school that prides itself in producing the most rural FM docs and that's their attitude about $200k+ OOS tuition. So guess what, I won't apply there.

My point is pursue after what it is you want to do and do it with as little debt as you can. Live below your means and you will not have to worry. Sure things are definitely going to get worse but I don't believe they will ever get to the point where a physician will be losing their job. People complain at work all the time. The grass is always greener. Don't buy the hype. What you hear is mostly a few people ticked off at the administration, whose spouse is upset, and they're in beaucoup debt. BTW never listen to a resident about pursuing medicine...never turns out well.

From one ancient nontrad to another. 😀 There's enough FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) in the process without adding what the stock market will look like once you finish fellowship...and we haven't even gotten into med school. just sayin

LOL. . .ancient. . .well, I wouldn't say ancient.

Thanks for the reply.

I hate debt. The night before sitting at the mortgage settlement table, I was up all night. . . Apparently that's not too unusual either.

 

[Glitterbox]

The single biggest pathway to social mobility has and always will be capitalism. We are doing our best in our country right now to undermine entrepeneurs, investors, and inventors, the ones who are the engines of capitalism.



Actually Headstart has been proven to be useless. While initially the kids in the program are achieving at a higher grade level, by the end up middle school their progress is identical to poor kids who don't receive headstart. A wasted, but well-intentioned program.



Welfare is one aspect of debt reduction, however the biggest target should be Medicare and Social Security. Both of these are arguably welfare programs as nearly every senior gets paid out vastly more than they put in. It's also the most regressive program, as it taxes the young and poor to pay out benefits to the old and rich.

Personally I would gladly pay much higher taxes IF and only IF the government was committed to balancing the budget and paying down debt. I refuse to pay higher taxes just to fund the current "easy choices" made by both the voting public and our weasel politicians.

I think capitalism can lead to social mobility if everyone is coming from an equal playing field. But being that there is such variability in the quality of public education in this country, its impossible to have that.

I think that investing in education would be a great way to even up the playing field for everyone... but like others have said, education starts at home. But support from home is only part of the problem. There is just a big difference in the caliber/quality of education in inner cities/rural America vs wealthier areas... and its really chilling to think about the health outcomes that have such a huge correlation... and it sad b/c in the so-called Land of Opportunity, for many US citizens, their lives were mapped out for them as soon as they had the misfortune to be born in a certain zip code. During the Republican National Convention when Condoleeza Rice calls education and failing schools the Civil Rights struggle of our day, I think she was incredibly spot on.

As for Medicare... I totally agree with you. Its a broken system. It was started at a time when ppl's lives were much shorter, and healthcare was a lot cheaper. But as ppl live longer and technology in healthcare becomes more advanced (and expensive), you get the situation we're in. And I think most legislators actually agree as well, but ppl are afraid to touch it b/c of the incredible power that the elderly and AARP exerct on the legislative body. And I don't think its an easy choice at all... the predicament the country is in is very difficult with a lot of opposing interests.

 

[UnderwaterDoc]

I think capitalism can lead to social mobility if everyone is coming from an equal playing field. But being that there is such variability in the quality of public education in this country, its impossible to have that.

I disagree. Me and several others here are examples that you can come from nothing and still make it, equal playing field be damned.

I think Americans have no idea what crappy schools are. Where I went to middle school the "teacher" was nothing more than a teenager who had barely graduated high school and had zero knowledge of the subject at hand. For every science class there would be two others about indoctrination. Things only improved mildly in high school. We were lucky if we had books, those that did were handed down year after year until they were no more than paper rags, barely legible. You had to either ride a bike for 10 miles to even get to school or catch the bus and take 2 hours getting there.

I think that our schools are not the problem. The people are the problem, like someone above me said. People are idiots. Kids are being raised in this Twitter and Facebook age where nobody cares about reading or learning, all they care about is which celebrity is procreating and what color Justin Bieber's farts are. Off course this can all be traced back to generations of parents that fail miserably at transmitting a sense of responsibility and discipline, thus ensuring the perpetuation of idiocy. Kids are given a gazillion chances to fail tests and fail them again with no real consequences. Consequences are a thing of the past, happy la-la land for everybody,

Money won't fix that. Stricter regulations in the schools will fix that. You know why immigrants study so hard? Because where we come from if you failed you were done, bai bai, sayonara, hasta la vista. Implement a schooling system with real consequences for doing poorly and things will get better.....or every professional in the future is going to come from a foreign land.

 

[Glitterbox]

I disagree. Me and several others here are examples that you can come from nothing and still make it, equal playing field be damned.

I think Americans have no idea what crappy schools are. Where I went to middle school the "teacher" was nothing more than a teenager who had barely graduated high school and had zero knowledge of the subject at hand. For every science class there would be two others about indoctrination. Things only improved mildly in high school. We were lucky if we had books, those that did were handed down year after year until they were no more than paper rags, barely legible. You had to either ride a bike for 10 miles to even get to school or catch the bus and take 2 hours getting there.

I think that our schools are not the problem. The people are the problem, like someone above me said. People are idiots. Kids are being raised in this Twitter and Facebook age where nobody cares about reading or learning, all they care about is which celebrity is procreating and what color Justin Bieber's farts are. Off course this can all be traced back to generations of parents that fail miserably at transmitting a sense of responsibility and discipline, thus ensuring the perpetuation of idiocy. Kids are given a gazillion chances to fail tests and fail them again with no real consequences. Consequences are a thing of the past, happy la-la land for everybody,

Money won't fix that. Stricter regulations in the schools will fix that. You know why immigrants study so hard? Because where we come from if you failed you were done, bai bai, sayonara, hasta la vista. Implement a schooling system with real consequences for doing poorly and things will get better.....or every professional in the future is going to come from a foreign land.

I don't agree. LOL at you saying Americans don't know what crappy schooling is. There are definitely crappy schools in the US. For sure, I mean, I can't say anything about your middle school because I don't where it is, and I didn't go there. I just know about the students that I tutored and sorry, the state of certain school systems in this country is abysmal.

You brought up immigrants. Immigrants do well here because they are a self-selected population. The ones that make into the US tend to be exceptional in some way, otherwise they wouldn't have made it here. Sorry, I come from an immigrant background too, and I know for a fact that there are lots of dumb people where I come from. There are dumb/lazy ppl everywhere, not just the US. But dumb/lazy non-Americans don't make it to the US b/c its a competitive process. I'm sure you know. Its not easy. Generally what the US gets in terms of immigrants tend to be the best and the brightest, unless they're from a conflict region, or a very close neighboring country, like say Mexico. And before you scoff, there is data that shows this. There is data to show that immigrants from places like China, India and Nigeria tend to have higher rates of college education upon arriving to the US than even the US population as a whole.

Take a Mexican migrant worker who made it over the border and had children here, and then compare that to the kid of Indian engineer who came here on a student visa to pursue his doctorate. Whose kid do you think will do better academically? And forget about the tendency for immigrant groups to congregate in certain areas, zip codes, neighborhoods. And certain immigrant groups have just built more in terms of social capital here in the US than others have, and that adds to the success of their immigrants. It just builds on itself, and you can see the results of that in the performance levels of their kids. There's a reason why certain countries and ethnic groups are over-represented in elite colleges or fields.

 

[TrumpetDoc]

While I would agree there is a lot to be done with education.
I have to say you throw the whole nut of our dollars at it and would likely only marginally help... You can't throw money at schools and improve $&@$). Parenting.
Parental INVOLVEMENT, not meaning dedicating a lot of time and lessening ones ability to work, but being Engadget, motivating, helpful, interested , etc. that is SERIOUSLY LACKING! This is a real problem!
Does anyone really think increasing entitlements will encourage this???
Nope! But it will sure buy votes!

 

[Hypomanics]

I have been avoiding reading this thread, but I must say I am pleasantly surprised by the discourse. A+, would read again.

 

[dally1025]

why be mad? Romney's not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0q2eGAjyGg&feature=colike

 

[docB]

I had and interesting discussion with a housekeeper in the ED. A group of us were discussing our disappointment with the election. She noted that she had voted for Obama. She said that her's was a very different economic situation than ours. She noted that there have been many layoffs and that she is still afraid she will lose her job. She also said that her raise had been withheld this year. She presented all of these as reasons for her vote.

I asked her what Obama would do that would help any of these issues.

She said she didn't know but she felt like he would be better for her Romney who is for "the rich."

To me this was an example of how successful the class warfare card was played. She had no idea what he would do for her but she figured he'd stick it to other people. That was good enough.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I had and interesting discussion with a housekeeper in the ED. A group of us were discussing our disappointment with the election. She noted that she had voted for Obama. She said that her's was a very different economic situation than ours. She noted that there have been many layoffs and that she is still afraid she will lose her job. She also said that her raise had been withheld this year. She presented all of these as reasons for her vote.

I asked her what Obama would do that would help any of these issues.

She said she didn't know but she felt like he would be better for her Romney who is for "the rich."

To me this was an example of how successful the class warfare card was played. She had no idea what he would do for her but she figured he'd stick it to other people. That was good enough.

To be fair, I'm not sure what specifically Romney would've done to help her either. And I watched the debates, followed the news, and skimmed candidates platforms (on their individual websites). I think it is an example of an uneducated vote, which takes place too often, on both sides.

Btw, I know that "improving the economy" would help her, but that is a goal of both candidates and so vague that I don't consider that a specific action.

 

[dotcb]

http://samuel-warde.com/2012/11/cry-babies-and-sore-losers/

http://whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/

http://www.ericgarland.co/2012/11/0...republican-strategist-regarding-white-people/

 

[Old_Mil]

The whole constitution is moot. It's 2013. Pre-schoolers have iphones. I don't think the wooden-teeth crew saw that one coming.

iPhones? Probably not. But as one shift in any ED in the country will show you, human nature stays the same.

Raise taxes even more on luxury items. Big time. Put it all towards EDUCATION.

We already have one of the most expensive education systems in the world. It is consistently outperformed by third world teachers with chalkboards in unairconditioned grass huts. What makes you think that throwing more money at the problem will solve anything?

The public, by in large, is dumb. Dumb.

Intellect and character are two things that education is powerless to change.

Diabetes would die.

You've treated type II diabetics. Once they are diagnosed, they are bombared with endless information about their disease (no lack of education there). Yet for the vast majority, the same habits that led them to acquire type II diabetes lead them to a place in life where their A1C is under poor control and they suffer the life-shortening complications of the thing anyway. In my entire career I've met one diabetic who took his disease seriously - to the point of keeping a journal of his blood sugars and diet. He maintained excellent control of his A1C and was in great health. He was also a engineer, and a type I.

America was built so that everyone can be a "HAVE."

No, it wasn't. It was built so that we could have the *pursuit* of happiness. Freedom and big government are mortal enemies. As one expands, the other shrinks. As freedom dies so does the ability to pursue happiness.

Needless to say, I'm both surprised and annoyed by Tuesday's results.

And Veers, in saying "Eventually the debt-fueled economy will come crashing down and all of these greedy, self-absorbed takers will pay the price." you're absolutely right. Unfortunately they have a very good chance of taking us with them.

 

[Apollyon]

What makes you think that throwing more money at the problem will solve anything?

That is the American solution to ANY problem - throw money at it.

 

[valkener]

I had and interesting discussion with a housekeeper in the ED. A group of us were discussing our disappointment with the election. She noted that she had voted for Obama. She said that her's was a very different economic situation than ours. She noted that there have been many layoffs and that she is still afraid she will lose her job. She also said that her raise had been withheld this year. She presented all of these as reasons for her vote.

I asked her what Obama would do that would help any of these issues.

She said she didn't know but she felt like he would be better for her Romney who is for "the rich."

To me this was an example of how successful the class warfare card was played. She had no idea what he would do for her but she figured he'd stick it to other people. That was good enough.

If you were in her shoes, would you have voted for Romney? A tax increase for the most wealthy Americans is clearly nothing one of low socioeconomic status has a problem with.

Obama's policies have helped people of low or middle socioeconomic status in many ways (for example, young people being able to stay on their parents insurance plan). It's not just a "class warfare card."

In the end Romney bent himself in so many directions and changed positions that people (including me) didn't know who he was, what he stood for anymore. I usually vote republican but when it was time to cast my vote I had no idea what this guy stood for.

 

[Birdstrike]

.

 

[Arcan57]

And Veers, in saying "Eventually the debt-fueled economy will come crashing down and all of these greedy, self-absorbed takers will pay the price." you're absolutely right. Unfortunately they have a very good chance of taking us with them.

So where was the option were the national debt didn't increase? The only president in my life time that has decreased the national debt even for a year was Clinton. Reagan, who's viewed as a god of smaller govenrment actually had by far the largest increase in the national debt in the last 36 years (188.6%). The second highest increase in debt was W. In fact, no Democratic president since before Carter has had a higher percentage change in the national debt during their administration then ANY Republican president. It's not that we're just wasting money on "looters", it's that we're not asking enough of the wealthy (yeah, I said it). Small government /= freedom, although I understand how politically useful trying to force us to buy into the concept is to Republicans. There is a point at which productivity losses due to disincentives created by higher taxes outweigh the income created by those taxes, but to pretend that we are anywhere near that ceiling is completely disingenuous. Now there are people (and corporations) that are moving out of the US for tax reasons (and have been for years), but we're never going to be able to lower our tax rates enough to make it advantageous for them to move back to the US.

 

[diphenyl]

No, it wasn't. It was built so that we could have the *pursuit* of happiness. Freedom and big government are mortal enemies. As one expands, the other shrinks. As freedom dies so does the ability to pursue happiness.

This is one of the biggest delusions of the American Dream that the rich sells. They would like every Joe Smoe to believe that he has the opportunity to become a millionaire even though his chances, even with intelligence and good work ethic, are very very slim. If w discount the 1% whom were born into it and inherited, we would be left with probably maybe 1/3 of the total people with a net worth over $1 mil. Look further into those self made millionaires, a majority got to where they were through quite frankly dumb luck. So these people sell the average american on this dream so Joe Smoe will vote against his own economic interests. This is the key to the republican base. They vote against their own economic interests and for the interests of those funding the candidates.

The basic message they feed them is "Don't tax the wealthy by making them pay their fair share, and you too may someday be the next Bill Gates".

I don't cry at all for the current tax rate on those whom make over 250 k. The tax rate on this level of income is the lowest it's been in 30 years. Job creators? Give me a break. The richest people in America that we've been giving a tax break to for the past 12 years, aren't dumping that money back into the economy. They are saving and stashing it. Why? They do it because they are not hurting at all by this economy because they have more money then they could ever reasonably spend in their lifetime.

 

[Birdstrike]

.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I've never said that I thought Romney would reduce the debt. At the very least Romney/Ryan talked about reducing the deficit and the debt. Obama has skirted the issue altogether and talks of his "millionaire/billionaire" tax which would raise less than 7% of the money needed to pay the deficit for one year!

IMO the deficit is the greatest moral and national security issue of our time. Right now interest payments on the debt are eating up enough money that we could otherwise use to fund healthcare, or lower tax rates for all.

Birdstrike is right in that most people are too stupid/uninformed to understand the issues. It's all about "what is the government going to do for me" rather than a vote for the interest of the country at large.

As I've stated, a vote for Obama was a vote for selfishness this election. Most people who don't want their tax credits, transfer payments, welfare, disability, or foodstamps cut voted for him, and don't give a **** if it means the country ends up in ruins.

 

[deleted109597]

 

[RustedFox]

Where'd you get this ? 🙂

 

[deleted109597]

Where'd you get this ? 🙂

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/
Occasionally not safe for work.

 

[Somnus Tuto]

who's the dark-haired busty chic? she looks evil
Broadwell?

(like, broad enough for anyone to draw from...well anyone whose name ends in '-us': spartacus, barnabus...you get the idea)

 

[docB]

This is one of the biggest delusions of the American Dream that the rich sells. They would like every Joe Smoe to believe that he has the opportunity to become a millionaire even though his chances, even with intelligence and good work ethic, are very very slim. If w discount the 1% whom were born into it and inherited, we would be left with probably maybe 1/3 of the total people with a net worth over $1 mil. Look further into those self made millionaires, a majority got to where they were through quite frankly dumb luck. So these people sell the average american on this dream so Joe Smoe will vote against his own economic interests. This is the key to the republican base. They vote against their own economic interests and for the interests of those funding the candidates.

The basic message they feed them is "Don't tax the wealthy by making them pay their fair share, and you too may someday be the next Bill Gates".

I don't cry at all for the current tax rate on those whom make over 250 k. The tax rate on this level of income is the lowest it's been in 30 years. Job creators? Give me a break. The richest people in America that we've been giving a tax break to for the past 12 years, aren't dumping that money back into the economy. They are saving and stashing it. Why? They do it because they are not hurting at all by this economy because they have more money then they could ever reasonably spend in their lifetime.

I just can't disagree with this enough. The reason that "the tax rate on this level of income is the lowest it's been in 30 years" is that the economy is in the toilet. You are interchanging tax rates with taxes paid. The tax rate is set legislatively and rarely changes. The taxes paid fluctuate with income.

When you say the rich have been "saving and stashing" their money rather than "dumping that money back into the economy" I assume you think they've been burying in their yards or stuffing it in their mattresses. If they've been saving it in banks or (whoa) investing it then it has been back in the economy. Check out It's a Wonderful Life for some basic econ refresher on this.

You say the rich, defined as those making >$250K/yr, are not hurting in this economy. That's just ridiculous. I am in that group. I will pay ~%20K extra per year just with the sundown of the Bush tax cuts. That doesn't include the additional tax increases that will come with the ACA. I may lose my house. I have already fired my landscaper and my pool guy. Neither of them are rich. Ask them how much Obama has helped them since all of their clients will be letting them go.

The left always tries to convince people that the American economy is a zero sum game. They make people believe that if a rich guy ears a dollar that took it from someone else. The economy is actually a growing and contracting entity. When conditions favor growth everyone can get a dollar.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Without the "evil rich" all of the Obama voters, the housekeepers, yard workers, painters and union members would be out of work.

Unfortunately the complexities of the economy escape most voters and they just care about their "Obama money" that comes in the mail every month.

 

[diphenyl]

Is everyone so jaded they can't acknowledge any accomplishments under Obama's first term?

Here's a fairly non controversial one. He helped re work the way the federal government does student loans. He eliminated using private banks as middle men for stafford loans. Saving the government 10's of millions of dollars which will be put back into Pell grants for students from low income families.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Is everyone so jaded they can't acknowledge any accomplishments under Obama's first term?

Here's a fairly non controversial one. He helped re work the way the federal government does student loans. He eliminated using private banks as middle men for stafford loans. Saving the government 10's of millions of dollars which will be put back into Pell grants for students from low income families.

If that's the best accomplishment Obama's got, he's going to need to do some serious resume padding when he looks for another job. Tens of millions in savings isn't even close to a start on the hundreds of billions the government runs in the red. Even if it were, student loans have gotten worse under Obama's administration, just like under the last few presidents. What happened to subsidized Stafford loans for med students? When I start med school next summer I'll be accruing interest from day one, and at 6.8%, that will add up fast. I don't even have income and I've still got a credit card with a lower APR than that. I don't know if I qualify for them, but I've seen private loans that will be a better option than today's Stafford loans.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Is everyone so jaded they can't acknowledge any accomplishments under Obama's first term?

Here's a fairly non controversial one. He helped re work the way the federal government does student loans. He eliminated using private banks as middle men for stafford loans. Saving the government 10's of millions of dollars which will be put back into Pell grants for students from low income families.

That's one of the WORST things he's done. He nationalized all student loans, and basically made it so if there's a default, the taxpayers would pick up the tab. Now that Universities are guaranteed to be paid (either by the student or Uncle Sam) they are set to crank up tuition to exhorbitant levels. And Joe Taxpayer foots the bill. Worse policy ever.

 

[diphenyl]

That's one of the WORST things he's done. He nationalized all student loans, and basically made it so if there's a default, the taxpayers would pick up the tab. Now that Universities are guaranteed to be paid (either by the student or Uncle Sam) they are set to crank up tuition to exhorbitant levels. And Joe Taxpayer foots the bill. Worse policy ever.

It still comes out of the student eventually. No way to erase student loan debt except in the event of death or grave disability.

 

[diphenyl]

Other Obama accomplishments:

1. ended DADT
2. toppled Ghadafi
3. brought last troop home from iraq (an unwinnable scenario)
4. saved the auto industry (had GM gone under the recession would have been far worse with the increased level of unemployment and even less international confidence in the American brand)
5. reversed Bush era "enhanced" interigation policies
6. will not defend DOMA when it comes to the surpreme court
7. increased further fuel emmisions standards (better for the environment + all the jobs it created like green engineers)
8. increased budget to VA for disabled veteran's benefits
9. tightening sanctions on Iran (their economy is in freefall right now)

😎

 

[docB]

Other Obama accomplishments:

1. ended DADT
2. toppled Ghadafi
3. brought last troop home from iraq (an unwinnable scenario)
4. saved the auto industry (had GM gone under the recession would have been far worse with the increased level of unemployment and even less international confidence in the American brand)
5. reversed Bush era "enhanced" interigation policies
6. will not defend DOMA when it comes to the surpreme court
7. increased further fuel emmisions standards (better for the environment + all the jobs it created like green engineers)
8. increased budget to VA for disabled veteran's benefits
9. tightening sanctions on Iran (their economy is in freefall right now)

😎

Ending DADT is not really an accomplishment. Any president including Clinton who accidentally created it could have ended it as Commander in Chief. Obama was willing to do it because the military is not going to vote for him no matter what. For Obama the military is part of his 47%.

I don't think Obama toppled Ghadafi as much as he got out of the way when it happen on its own. After the debacle in Benghazi his Libya policy is clearly ill conceived. Obama's foreign policy is completely reactive. The main people that should not be worried by his random actions are the Russians now that he has more "flexibility."

GM was bailed out but none of the underlying problems that drove it under have been addressed. No company that has to provide American union compensation can compete on the global market. Once again the Obama administration has kicked that can down the road.

Obama claims to have stopped enhanced interrogation but he sure has taken a lot of victory laps for killing Bin Laden which happened because of those interrogations. He also ok'd the killing of a terrorist who was an American citizen. Now most of us on the right look at that as an instance of good leadership. But the left doesn't like to talk about it. He also has not closed Gitmo. It turned out that whole issue of what to do with the insurgents was tougher than he thought. Looks like the Bush solution was actually the best anyone could come up with.

"Will not defend DOMA when it goes to the Supreme Court" isn't an accomplishment. It's a promise. There's a big difference. And how exactly would a president "defend DOMA" while it's a Supreme Court case? Is he promising not to interfere in the actions of another branch of the government? That's the first time I've ever heard him say he would abide by the Constitution.

Creating green jobs like those at Solyndra and the other corrupt tax money pits is an accomplishment? Funding these things is similar to New Deal programs trying to use government spending and government jobs to stimulate the economy. It doesn't work. "Green jobs" is reminiscent of Orwell's discussion of digging holes and filling them back up to give people something to do.

No amount of economic sanctions can repair the damage to our Iran policy Obama has done by making clear that he will not support Israel in a pinch.

Now all of these are policy differences I would have with any leftist in the office. The still pale in comparison to the resentment I feel at his policies aimed at punishing me financially via the tax code which will not benefit anyone.

 

[bob1234]

We removed US soldiers from Iraq, but maintained troop levels with private contractors (mercenaries).

Don't forget. . .

 

[Doctorama]

Although I feel neither candidate was the best fit, I am disappointed that obamacare is moving forward.

 

[diphenyl]

"Will not defend DOMA when it goes to the Supreme Court" isn't an accomplishment. It's a promise. There's a big difference. And how exactly would a president "defend DOMA" while it's a Supreme Court case? Is he promising not to interfere in the actions of another branch of the government? That's the first time I've ever heard him say he would abide by the Constitution.

When it goes to the supreme court it will be whomever the plaintiff is vs The United States. on the dockett. The US will be defended by US federal attorneys, aka part of the executive branch. He has promised not to defend or contest it when it comes to trial.




All in all I will acknowledge that there are reasonable and economically sound people who occupy a few seats on the right side of the isle. The voices Mitt Romney represented however had the social policies of the religious right wing fanatics. Sorry can;t go backwards on the progress we've made these last 4 years. If his cohorts had their way. Same sex marriage and adoption would be outlawed. No partner benefits for same sex couples. DADT would be back in full force. Gay's would be excluded from fields like being public school teachers or government employees. Abortion and birth control would be illegal in all circumstances. 😱

 

[GeneralVeers]

All in all I will acknowledge that there are reasonable and economically sound people who occupy a few seats on the right side of the isle. The voices Mitt Romney represented however had the social policies of the religious right wing fanatics. Sorry can;t go backwards on the progress we've made these last 4 years. If his cohorts had their way. Same sex marriage and adoption would be outlawed. No partner benefits for same sex couples. DADT would be back in full force. Gay's would be excluded from fields like being public school teachers or government employees. Abortion and birth control would be illegal in all circumstances. 😱

All of those things you say "Romney wants to do" are paranoid delusions. While I'll grant you that Republicans are downright nutty on a lot of social issues, they are unlikely to signficiantly alter many things like abortion and gay rights that are settled issues.

I could just as easily say that Obama if he had his way would eliminate private property, sell the White House to the Chinese, and enact Kenyan common law. I can imagine all sorts of crazy stuff, but that doesn't mean he has any chance of passing it.

 

[WilcoWorld]

All of those things you say "Romney wants to do" are paranoid delusions. While I'll grant you that Republicans are downright nutty on a lot of social issues, they are unlikely to signficiantly alter many things like abortion and gay rights that are settled issues.

I could just as easily say that Obama if he had his way would eliminate private property, sell the White House to the Chinese, and enact Kenyan common law. I can imagine all sorts of crazy stuff, but that doesn't mean he has any chance of passing it.

The difference is that the sources of Diphenyl's fears are statements made by Romney and the GOP. The source of your fears is Donald Trump.