Who's more desirable for residencies, a US citizen IMG or a DO?

[ThreadMaker]

That's right I went there. I know that US seniors are generally preferred but what about US Imgs vs DO seniors? Who's more preferable?

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[Winged Scapula]

That's right I went there. I know that US seniors are generally preferred but what about US Imgs vs DO seniors? Who's more preferable?

IMHO, in almost all cases, DO would be preferred.

 

[gutonc]

IMHO, in almost all cases, DO would be preferred.

And just to be clear...that's a USIMG making that statement.

 

[Buzz Me]

That's right I went there. I know that US seniors are generally preferred but what about US Imgs vs DO seniors? Who's more preferable?

Why are you asking this? You've already talked about the fact that you're an IMG in a tough bind with a questionable academic record - as seen in this thread - and you can't change that fact. US DOs will have advantages over you, all else being equal. Nothing you can do about that.

All you can do is study hard and rock Step 1. I would advise not posting so many new threads here and just buckle down and study. It behooves you NOT to do poorly on that test.

 

[Ronin786]

I agree with WS that in most cases its going to be the DO student. The majority of USIMGs are folks in carib schools that went there because they couldn't get into a US med school. DO students have more of a standing, their schools have more of a reputation and they have their own residencies where not so competitive students might go after.

I think the exception might be like Gutonc mentioned in another thread, dual-citizen IMGs that went to study abroad. But even those are probably a step below DOs.

And just to be clear, this is comparing DOs and USIMGs with similar step scores and resumes.

 

[rokshana]

and this USIMG has seen different...it depends on the specialty...surgery is probably more DO skewed ...IM varies...there are programs that prefer DOs, some prefer USIMGs and still others prefer foreign IMGs....but ALL prefer applicants that dont have any red flags...fail a class, fail a step, have poor grade (or even fail) a clerkship and those will weigh heavily against you, regardless of DO or IMG status.

 

[johhnybgood]

no need to argue. obviously DO's are preferred. if there's any doubt (there shouldn't be), just take a look at the matching statistics. 75% match rate vs. 53%

 

[Winged Scapula]

and this USIMG has seen different...it depends on the specialty...surgery is probably more DO skewed ...IM varies...there are programs that prefer DOs, some prefer USIMGs and still others prefer foreign IMGs....but ALL prefer applicants that dont have any red flags...fail a class, fail a step, have poor grade (or even fail) a clerkship and those will weigh heavily against you, regardless of DO or IMG status.

The opposite is actually true.

Allopathic surgery is traditionally biased against DOs.

 

[rokshana]

The opposite is actually true.

Allopathic surgery is traditionally biased against DOs.

ok then...so who does prefer the DO? i mean i can't imagine that the uber competitive specialties really take that many DOs or IMGs so then we would be talking about Primary Care...FM and IM seem to be similar in their preferences...some like DOs, some like IMGs, some don't take either...peds...most of the peds programs i have seen seem to have an awful lot of IMGs, but I'm also in the East so the East overall may be more biased against DOs (more because there just weren't that many DO schools until recently though pennsylvania does seem to be the exception).

 

[rokshana]

no need to argue. obviously DO's are preferred. if there's any doubt (there shouldn't be), just take a look at the matching statistics. 75% match rate vs. 53%

umm, yeah...there are more FMGs in the mix than DO applicants...when you look at the raw numbers i believe the actual # of spots are about equal....there is very little obvious to it.

 

[gutonc]

ok then...so who does prefer the DO? i mean i can't imagine that the uber competitive specialties really take that many DOs or IMGs so then we would be talking about Primary Care...FM and IM seem to be similar in their preferences...some like DOs, some like IMGs, some don't take either...peds...most of the peds programs i have seen seem to have an awful lot of IMGs, but I'm also in the East so the East overall may be more biased against DOs (more because there just weren't that many DO schools until recently though pennsylvania does seem to be the exception).

My (mid-tier) IM program took plenty of DOs (2-5/y out of a class of 30-ish) but only took IMGs who were dual citizens that went to their "home" countries for med school. Over the course of the 4 or 5 years I was paying attention there was one from Japan, one from AIIMS in India, one from UC-Dublin and one from Britain (I forget which school).

 

[rokshana]

My (mid-tier) IM program took plenty of DOs (2-5/y out of a class of 30-ish) but only took IMGs who were dual citizens that went to their "home" countries for med school. Over the course of the 4 or 5 years I was paying attention there was one from Japan, one from AIIMS in India, one from UC-Dublin and one from Britain (I forget which school).

and again, i don't discount that...i have never said IM programs prefer IMGs over DOs...i have said there are some programs that prefer DOs (as evidently your mid tier IM program did)...but it doesn't make it any less true that there are programs that are out there that prefer IMGs over DOs (btw, my program was pretty evenly split...1/3 AMGs. 1/3 DOs, and 1/3 IMGs...so there are programs out there that look at everyone as well).

 

[Doctor Bob]

Aren't there a hundred other threads that all ask this same question? This seems like a yearly question...

Did the search function break?

 

[ams81]

programs prefer DOs over USIMG, especially FP programs.

Let me also tell you programs prefer Non US citizen IMGs over USIMG (vice versa for FP programs)

You can go on and on about the language and cultural differences. But lets face it, they way PDs see it is a like this; your a US citizen, you grew up here and went to school here, so why did you go abroad??? And yes some will have a legitamate reason, and some will out right say I messed up in college, I got a masters, I did research and I didnt get in, but i was so passionate that I decided to go abroad, well kudos to them, they usually do well anways. I am not discounting USIMG by any means, Many are brilliant and competitive. On the other hand the Non US citizen IMG, they happen to be the best of the best to get into thier well established Medical Schools, and the belief is the best of them will come here.

The cultural differences and language is very subjective, many assimilate quite well. And you cant really question thier knowledge, some are walking Harrisons, that can put any AMG to shame...yes they need some time to adjust to the US system, and yes they will run into a visa issue..but now they are offering J1 visa which pretty much means the hospital doesnt have pay or process it, the candidate does all the leg work.

With that said above...IMHO.. USIMGs, 90% of them match into FP (and they really care about language and culture cuz they are all about continuity), 9% get into IM cuz they did really well on thier Boards, and 1% will get some other nice specialty because they either had a hook up, or were extremely brilliant, and spent some time doing research and what not.

So your best bet my friend, instead of asking all these questions...is to clamp down, study hard, rock your boards, demonstrate your dedication and passion by doing some research, and you will be just fine. I know an IMG that got Optho at a very competitve place because of years of research in that department, I know another that got Ortho, because of a few years of research. Programs only know you as a number and what ECFMG has to say about you, your not easily verifiable like an AMG. But doing some hard work and effort, where reputable people and institutions get to know you and can vouch for you, then you can beat all the odds.. Its a matter of how dedicated you are.

Best of luck

 

[rokshana]

With that said above...IMHO.. USIMGs, 90% of them match into FP (and they really care about language and culture cuz they are all about continuity), 9% get into IM cuz they did really well on thier Boards, and 1% will get some other nice specialty because they either had a hook up, or were extremely brilliant, and spent some time doing research and what not.

do you have a source for those numbers? (your butt does not count....)

 

[gasthrowaway]

The opposite is actually true.

Allopathic surgery is traditionally biased against DOs.

ok then...so who does prefer the DO? i mean i can't imagine that the uber competitive specialties really take that many DOs or IMGs so then we would be talking about Primary Care...FM and IM seem to be similar in their preferences...some like DOs, some like IMGs, some don't take either...peds...most of the peds programs i have seen seem to have an awful lot of IMGs, but I'm also in the East so the East overall may be more biased against DOs (more because there just weren't that many DO schools until recently though pennsylvania does seem to be the exception).

Think mid-competitiveness specialties, we're talking about EM, gas, IM, Rads (lately), stuff like that.

But WS is correct, gen surgery seems to be the only mid-competitiveness specialty that is still a little biased against DOs.

 

[Dejavu]

Don't we also have to say that it depends where an IMG went to med school.

Every Irish and English resident I ever met (and that is quite a number) could smoke most American med students. Especially with a stethescope. German as well.

My only point is that IMG is a term with a wide variety of backgrounds.

I would go to an Irish/English IMG anytime for my care.

 

[thedeepend]

I would actually disagree. I might be biased, because I am a US IMG, but there are a lot of programs that do not want DO's and only MD's (even if they are foreign) in their programs. I think really competitive programs will not take either.

 

[laricb]

IMHO, in almost all cases, DO would be preferred.

Not in NY

 

[Winged Scapula]

Not in NY

Good Lord.

When I say, in *almost* all cases, that does allow for some exclusions. The OP was asking for a generalization, not all the exceptions to the rule.

Yes, there are a lot of FMGs in NY. There are places where an FMG would be preferred over a DO. There are also programs where a DO would be preferred over an FMG. I've already mentioned that there are programs and specialties which have a bias against DOs. I've personally had patients choose me over one of my partners, despite the fact that I trained outside the US, simply because my partner is a DO. My partner even admits that there is a bias and goes to great lengths to hide where she went to medical school for fear of losing patients because of her degree. But patients aren't PDs and residency faculty.

But let me ask you: if a friend were to ask, "should I go to a DO school or abroad?" what would you suggest? Chances are that they will be favored for residency as a DO in *almost* all cases. Exceptions are exceptions.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I would actually disagree. I might be biased, because I am a US IMG, but there are a lot of programs that do not want DO's and only MD's (even if they are foreign) in their programs. I think really competitive programs will not take either.

You might very well be biased especially given the fact that you have stated earlier that you intentionally chose a Caribbean medical school over a DO program, therefore highlighting your own biases.

I'm glad its worked in your favor.👍

 

[KGflyboy]

The data shows that DOs match at a significantly higher rate than IMGS with and without US citizenship. 93.7% of US MD seniors matched, 75.4% of DOs matched, 53.1% of US IMGs matched, and 47.6% of non US citizen IMGs matched in 2013.

Anyone stating otherwise is probably referring to personal observations or conclusions, which are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[laricb]

Good Lord.

When I say, in *almost* all cases, that does allow for some exclusions. The OP was asking for a generalization, not all the exceptions to the rule.

Yes, there are a lot of FMGs in NY. There are places where an FMG would be preferred over a DO. There are also programs where a DO would be preferred over an FMG. I've already mentioned that there are programs and specialties which have a bias against DOs. I've personally had patients choose me over one of my partners, despite the fact that I trained outside the US, simply because my partner is a DO. My partner even admits that there is a bias and goes to great lengths to hide where she went to medical school for fear of losing patients because of her degree. But patients aren't PDs and residency faculty.

But let me ask you: if a friend were to ask, "should I go to a DO school or abroad?" what would you suggest? Chances are that they will be favored for residency as a DO in *almost* all cases. Exceptions are exceptions.

I live in NYC, so I can only state what I here. Many doctors I talk to tell me to stay clear of a DO school if I want to practice in NY, because of the stigma that no one knows what a DO medical degree is. I would still tell you to choose the DO option if you are going to practice outside this state.

 

[gutonc]

I live in NYC, so I can only state what I here. Many doctors I talk to tell me to stay clear of a DO school if I want to practice in NY, because of the stigma that no one knows what a DO medical degree is.

So you're basically saying that, because 6% of the US population (the percent that lives in NY State) doesn't know what a DO is (in and of itself a ridiculous proposition, but let's run with it), going offshore is a better plan?

I have no dog in this fight but will say that, as an AMG from NYC, I rotated with as many DO students (and residents and attendings) as I did IMGs. I think you're exhibiting a bit of sample bias in this case.

 

[laricb]

So you're basically saying that, because 6% of the US population (the percent that lives in NY State) doesn't know what a DO is (in and of itself a ridiculous proposition, but let's run with it), going offshore is a better plan?

I have no dog in this fight but will say that, as an AMG from NYC, I rotated with as many DO students (and residents and attendings) as I did IMGs. I think you're exhibiting a bit of sample bias in this case.

Just take a poll ask 10 people outside your hospital world what a DO is and I bet you all 10 have no idea. You sound a little bias yourself

 

[rokshana]

Just take a poll ask 10 people outside your hospital world what a DO is and I bet you all 10 have no idea. You sound a little bias yourself

but poll 10 PD or Chairs of programs if THEY know what a DO is and i bet all 10 (even those in NY) will know what they are...

my point in answering WS was that different IMGs have different experiences and I had issue with saying most as opposed to many (maybe semantics, but IMHO there is a difference), but DO is just as viable option as going off shore depending on the time (those would were deciding 10-15 years ago, DO was different in # of schools and acceptability) specialty, and yes, geographical location...but make no mistake there is a reason there are are US seniors and independent applicants and that DOs are in the latter category and not the former...and there are more similarities between IMGs and DOs than there are with AMGs and DOs...both are an option for those that could not get into an allopathic medicine program in the US (yes, i know there are those that truly believe in the osteopathic philosophy, but if they believe that much, they no doubt go into DO residencies).

ten years ago, i chose off shore over DO...I spoke with friends that were AMGs, DOs and family that were FMGs...neither had an overwhelming advantage, but at the time I was interested in a specialty that fellowship (at that time) took no DO applicants, so that small reason made my decision...would my decision be the same now , i don't know (but then again, with the increases in the US med student numbers, I would have gotten off the wait list and wouldn't have had to worry about it! 🙂 )

 

[JGimpel]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=565169

 

[Silent Cool]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=565169

LOL.

But in all seriousness, to anyone reading this thread planning on med school: Do all you can to be an AMG MD.

 

[anthroguy]

DOs match significantly better in the allo match than imgs. They also have their own match! This is an easy decision. I graduated from umdnj which had a masters program attached to it for med school hopefuls. Ross, Sgu, auc is where those unable to get into umdnj som went. The debt levels of Caribbean students surpass those of all American grads and they are in the most precarious position match wise. Things might have been different ten years ago but the answer today is clear.

 

[KGflyboy]

DOs match significantly better in the allo match than imgs. They also have their own match! This is an easy decision. I graduated from umdnj which had a masters program attached to it for med school hopefuls. Ross, Sgu, auc is where those unable to get into umdnj som went. The debt levels of Caribbean students surpass those of all American grads and they are in the most precarious position match wise. Things might have been different ten years ago but the answer today is clear.

I agree. I'm not sure why there is much of a debate about this. Everyone has different priorities, so what is best for one person might not be best for another. However, there is no comparison to match success of IMGs to DOs. DOs have a much higher match rate in the MD residencies. When you factor in DO residencies, the differences in degrees and match rates is even more apparent. 22% of DOs withdrew from the MD match because they were obligated to when they matched in the DO match first. The 75% match rate of DOs in MD residencies doesn't account for that. Of the DOs that stayed in the match until the end, the number is much higher than 75%. The IMGS rates are still around 50%. They are even lower for non US IMGs.

The important thing to remember when comparing match successes of Caribbean and DO schools is the following fact. Including the MD and DO residencies, the match rate for DOs is in the high 90s. The US IMG match rate is barely half that.

 

[laricb]

I agree. I'm not sure why there is much of a debate about this. Everyone has different priorities, so what is best for one person might not be best for another. However, there is no comparison to match success of IMGs to DOs. DOs have a much higher match rate in the MD residencies. When you factor in DO residencies, the differences in degrees and match rates is even more apparent. 22% of DOs withdrew from the MD match because they were obligated to when they matched in the DO match first. The 75% match rate of DOs in MD residencies doesn't account for that. Of the DOs that stayed in the match until the end, the number is much higher than 75%. The IMGS rates are still around 50%. They are even lower for non US IMGs.

The important thing to remember when comparing match successes of Caribbean and DO schools is the following fact. Including the MD and DO residencies, the match rate for DOs is in the high 90s. The US IMG match rate is barely half that.

Yes but if you take just SGU and Ross match rates they are close to 80%. Which is higher then the DO rate.

 

[gutonc]

Yes but if you take just SGU and Ross match rates they are close to 80%. Which is higher then the DO rate.

Well if you take just the PCOM, KCOM and CCOM rates and add them to the AOA match....

See where I'm going with this ?

 

[WonderBoy]

Yes but if you take just SGU and Ross match rates they are close to 80%. Which is higher then the DO rate.

80%? Where did you get that number from?

How about all the people that didn't make it let alone to clinicals but thru the first semester?

Btw NY has a big DO population due to NYCOM graduating 250+ students every year and now Touro has been pumping out 120+ for past 3 years. So the NE is a friendly place for DOs.

Also TouroCom we had 100% match rate, everyone from class of 2013 is in residency at this moment.

For those deciding between SGU/Ross and DO school, I would urge you to be careful in your decision. SGU's tuition is alone around 210k! There is a lot of misinformation out there, research for yourself. After 4yrs and 200k+ loans you want to have a job. People will still match out of SGU/Ross in years to come but for the average student it will get harder with extra DO and MD schools open up.

Just my two cents, good luck.

 

[neusu]

I'd argue the skew is as follows US citizen IMG (e.g. Caribbean) > DO > Non-US IMG (Chinese/Indian/Pakistani, etc). My reasoning is thus. Certainly, the numbers skew against US IMGs, however many of these schools are diploma mills and their board scores are not good. Likewise, they have trouble arranging clinical rotations and are not well prepared for them prior to arrival. For the US IMG with a good board score and well clinically planned, an MD > DO, regardless of the origin.

 

[Winged Scapula]

80%? Where did you get that number from?

How about all the people that didn't make it let alone to clinicals but thru the first semester?

The attrition rate is quite high at many of these schools, certainly higher than at any of the osteopathic programs.

NY has a big DO population due to NYCOM graduating 250+ students every year and now Touro has been pumping out 120+ for past 3 years. So the NE is a friendly place for DOs.

Exactly. The comment above about no one in New York having ever heard of a osteopath stymies me. Unless these people have been living under a rock there's not only Touro but a school in New Jersey, two in Pennsylvania, and another one someplace else in New England. There are plenty of osteopathic physicians working in the Northeast United States.

 

[laricb]

The attrition rate is quite high at many of these schools, certainly higher than at any of the osteopathic programs.



Exactly. The comment above about no one in New York having ever heard of a osteopath stymies me. Unless these people have been living under a rock there's not only Touro but a school in New Jersey, two in Pennsylvania, and another one someplace else in New England. There are plenty of osteopathic physicians working in the Northeast United States.

First the bloomberg news just wrote an entire article and stated Ross and SGU are placing students in residency at a 75 to 80% clip, Also I am stating the DO facts that I hear from medical doctors in the field who practice privately and in Hospitals..When I was choosing between SGU and a DO school I couldn't find 1 DO doctor to shadow with.

 

[Winged Scapula]

First the bloomberg news just wrote an entire article and stated Ross and SGU are placing students in residency at a 75 to 80% clip,

The article states a match rate for 75-80% of students who make it to apply to the match. NOT 75-80% of students who start medical school. The attrition rate at all schools outside of the US is much higher than at US medical schools. That's an important factor to look at. 80% of students matching means nothing if less than 98% of students don't go into the match.

Also I am stating the DO facts that I hear from medical doctors in the field who practice privately and in Hospitals..When I was choosing between SGU and a DO school I couldn't find 1 DO doctor to shadow with.

I understand and respect your experience but I would venture that I and gutonc, 2 attendings with experience at living and working in NE, might have had more experience in working with DOs than you have had. Consider yourself lucky because frankly, any MD who has "never heard of" a DO is clearly outdated and uninformed. Its not like osteopathic medicine is a new fangled thing (and this is coming from a non-DO).

Here's a list of NYC osteopaths (not that Yelp is a reliable resource for physicians - maybe it is - I have to run and didn't have much time).

 

[laricb]

The article states a match rate for 75-80% of students who make it to apply to the match. NOT 75-80% of students who start medical school. The attrition rate at all schools outside of the US is much higher than at US medical schools. That's an important factor to look at. 80% of students matching means nothing if less than 98% of students don't go into the match.



I understand and respect your experience but I would venture that I and gutonc, 2 attendings with experience at living and working in NE, might have had more experience in working with DOs than you have had. Consider yourself lucky because frankly, any MD who has "never heard of" a DO is clearly outdated and uninformed. Its not like osteopathic medicine is a new fangled thing (and this is coming from a non-DO).

Here's a list of NYC osteopaths (not that Yelp is a reliable resource for physicians - maybe it is - I have to run and didn't have much time).

I can only speak about SGU. The attrition rates are high because students choose to take a chance at medical school even though they aren't qualified, but most of this happens in the first semester, you can't blame the school for giving these students an opportunity. I have a friend in my class who received a 34 on his MCAT and still was denied entrance into US Medical schools. It is getting nearly impossible even with the numbers to get into a US School. He didn't want the DO route so he accepted SGU.

 

[Ronin786]

I think another thing that's going unmentioned here is the type of specialties offshore students are matching into. For the most part, a normal USIMG isn't going to be matching into something like ophtho, neurosurgery or urology. Yet I'd say the match numbers for DOs in those specialties aren't as impossible as those of USIMGs. And match rates for gas, EM and radiology are also higher.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I can only speak about SGU. The attrition rates are high because students choose to take a chance at medical school even though they aren't qualified, but most of this happens in the first semester, you can't blame the school for giving these students an opportunity. I have a friend in my class who received a 34 on his MCAT and still was denied entrance into US Medical schools. It is getting nearly impossible even with the numbers to get into a US School. He didn't want the DO route so he accepted SGU.

Dumb decision. Concerned about the bias against DOs when you're decreasing your chances of getting the specialty that you may want in the location that you want is dumb.

I think another thing that's going unmentioned here is the type of specialties offshore students are matching into. For the most part, a normal USIMG isn't going to be matching into something like ophtho, neurosurgery or urology. Yet I'd say the match numbers for DOs in those specialties aren't as impossible as those of USIMGs. And match rates for gas, EM and radiology are also higher.

This. DOs don't match in high numbers into neurosurg or urology, but due to the AOA match, it is higher numbers than what USIMGs match into those same fields.

To the OP - I would imagine that a DO and USIMG with identical stats applying to an ACGME residency would lead to the DO getting the spot over someone from the Carribean MOST of the time. On top of that, DOs have the AOA match with a bunch of reserved spots.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I can only speak about SGU. The attrition rates are high because students choose to take a chance at medical school even though they aren't qualified, but most of this happens in the first semester, you can't blame the school for giving these students an opportunity. I have a friend in my class who received a 34 on his MCAT and still was denied entrance into US Medical schools. It is getting nearly impossible even with the numbers to get into a US School. He didn't want the DO route so he accepted SGU.

I am well aware of everything you've posted above and in no way do I. "blame" schools for giving qualified students a second chance. You're preaching to the choir here.

I was responding to your claim of a superior match rate published by SGU/Ross with the well recognized fact that those numbers (as well as their Step 1 pass rate) are not as high as they seem.

 

[KGflyboy]

First the bloomberg news just wrote an entire article and stated Ross and SGU are placing students in residency at a 75 to 80% clip, Also I am stating the DO facts that I hear from medical doctors in the field who practice privately and in Hospitals..When I was choosing between SGU and a DO school I couldn't find 1 DO doctor to shadow with.

75-80% is still REALLY low. 1/4th of the students don't match by your own admission. That is WAY lower than DO match rates, so it still reaffirms that DOs are much more likely to get a residency.

 

[laricb]

75-80% is still REALLY low. 1/4th of the students don't match by your own admission. That is WAY lower than DO match rates, so it still reaffirms that DOs are much more likely to get a residency.

How do you figure. Last yr DO's matched at a 75% clip.

 

[KGflyboy]

How do you figure. Last yr DO's matched at a 75% clip.

That's not really the whole picture. That's their match rate in 1 of 2 match processes. Nearly every single DO matched when both are factored in.

As I already pointed out, a DO who matches in an AOA residency withdraws from the MD match, thus distorting the percentage. Of the DOs that stuck in til the end, the number is much higher. The 75% number does not represent what you are trying to say it represents.

Again... The total match rate for DOs is in the upper 90s. What Caribbean school can say that?

 

[rokshana]

The article states a match rate for 75-80% of students who make it to apply to the match. NOT 75-80% of students who start medical school. The attrition rate at all schools outside of the US is much higher than at US medical schools. That's an important factor to look at. 80% of students matching means nothing if less than 98% of students don't go into the match.



I understand and respect your experience but I would venture that I and gutonc, 2 attendings with experience at living and working in NE, might have had more experience in working with DOs than you have had. Consider yourself lucky because frankly, any MD who has "never heard of" a DO is clearly outdated and uninformed. Its not like osteopathic medicine is a new fangled thing (and this is coming from a non-DO).

Here's a list of NYC osteopaths (not that Yelp is a reliable resource for physicians - maybe it is - I have to run and didn't have much time).

making the statement that 98% of students don't go into the match is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think?

and i believe he was responding to someone who questioned the 75-80% match rate that was stated earlier for students at sgu, ross, and auc...it should be a given that there will be people who go offshore who don't make it through...after all many (if not most, there is always that subset of people that if they lived in a state not cali, NY, texas, or NJ would most likely gotten into a state school in a less competitive state) do not have the perfect stats to get into a US MD school (and the stats to get into a DO school is a less than that of getting into a US MD) and so some will succeed given the second chance, but some either just don't change their habits or just are not able to do med school, no matter how much they desire to become a doctor...

 

[Winged Scapula]

making the statement that 98% of students don't go into the match is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think?

Yes, it wound be IF that's what I said.

Approximately 96-97% of US first year medical students complete medical school, for an attrition rate of 3-4%. Of those who reach 4th year, approximately 98% participate in a residency match. I never said that 98% of students "don't go" into the match, nor did I imply it. Please re-read the post.

My comment was that 80% of students matching is a meaningless statistic without knowing how many of the students who started medical school actually finished and how many participated in the match.

...and i believe he was responding to someone who questioned the 75-80% match rate that was stated earlier for students at sgu, ross, and auc...it should be a given that there will be people who go offshore who don't make it through...

Well, yes it should be a given but the person to whom I was responding DIDN'T GET THAT. He was quoting (and kept quoting) an 80% match rate as if it meant that 80% of medical students at SGU and Ross finish medical school and successfully match.

 

[pattr]

Well, yes it should be a given but the person to whom I was responding DIDN'T GET THAT. He was quoting (and kept quoting) an 80% match rate as if it meant that 80% of medical students at SGU and Ross finish medical school and successfully match.

You're not alone... this has [post=13943325]happened before[/post].

 

[ams81]

do you have a source for those numbers? (your butt does not count....)

like i said IMHO....its an observation

 

[dragonfly99]

another attending (though young)...
My take is also that right now it is likely better for the average student to go to a DO school than to any Caribbean med school. Of course, each person has to do what is right for him/her. Certainly one sees students from SGU and a few of the other Caribbean schools matching, etc. But their tuition is very high, and for Ross in particular I've seen and heard quite a few complaints in recent years from their students. For one thing, I am not sure they get good support in setting up clinical rotations and going through the whole match process, and that is not good.

Also, as mentioned above by other people posting, quite a few people fail out of these schools. It is true that a lot of these were probably academically marginal, but I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking THEY will never be the academically marginal one. Just because you made a 3.5, or even a 3.8, in undergrad, or got a 30 or 40 on the MCAT, does not mean that you will never struggle with a class or clinical rotation in med school (take it from one who knows). Hopefully most of you won't struggle to the point of failing a class or rotation. However, if you do and you are at a US DO or MD school, for the most part they will do a lot to try to get you through (some schools more than others). That is for various reasons, probably some that I know and some that I don't. I think the better Caribbean schools (probably SGU, hopefully) would try also to help the student succeed, but the cost of going to those schools is usually > any US school. The "cheap" Caribbean schools I don't think are any good, so beware of those.

I had a very good 4th year med student work with me 2-3 years ago on a clinical rotation, but I never heard if the guy matched anywhere or not. Meanwhile there are DO's scattered all around the university medical center where I work (some residents, and now some younger attendings). I think if you are a premed and you talk to some private practice docs that are 65 years old you may get the idea that the DO degree in general is still looked down upon, but that isn't uniformly true any more. And I don't think it is looked down on any more than a foreign MD degree. There are a few patients who may not know what a DO is, which might be a minor annoyance, but most patients are pretty clueless about what is on your nametag and don't understand our whole schooling process very well and just want us to make them better.

I think everyone has to make a decision for himself/herself, and there could be particular people for whom a foreign MD school might be a better choice than a DO school. It might depend on the DO school(s) versus the foreign school. For example, I know that some NYC people used to go to Israel for med school, and if having family ties, etc. there, and wanting to do a residency in NYC, perhaps they would be looked upon the same (or more favorably) than someone from a random DO school in the Midwest. I know that residency program directors and faculty all have biases or preferences, based on trainees and fellow docs they have known. They maybe more familiar with certain schools (MD or DO), particularly ones in their geographic region, and they "know", or at least can estimate, what a particular set of grades from a certain med school means.

I do think the DO's having their own match is a big factor in the "safety" of going to those schools versus a foreign MD school. However, for the person who said his friend got 34 on MCAT and couldn't get into a US school, that person, if he does OK in med school and has good USMLE scores, isn't likely to get no spot in the US match. The problem could be being forced or shunting into a specialty one does not want...I do think it more likely if one is a foreign trained MD. I have run into DO neurosurgeons, lately, so they are not all in primary care now. It's going to be damn hard to get a neurosurgery spot coming from Ross or SGU...

People should also consider the cost of attending different med schools...you will care if you have 160k debt versus 300k. Unfortunately most med schools seem to be ridiculously expensive now...I thought my 32k tuition was ridiculous at the time I paid it, but now I guess it is 45k/year?

 

[deleted898021]

Hahahahaha I bet no one in their sane mind any longer believes that an MD from a piss poor Caribbean third world country is(or ever was) better than a DO. With the merger and the massive expansion(25% of all current medical students are becoming DO’s) going to the carribean is going to put you in a massive pile of excrement! Can’t believe there are people who don’t do thier basic homework and think that a foreign MD is better than a DO just because of the degree hahah, your gonna be in a world of hurt. Also to anyone arguing that there are “programs” that take imgs over DO’s doesn’t realize that those are the img sweatshops that no American MD or DO would ever want to train in, in reality a mid tier program in any specialty will always prefer a DO over an IMG.. also there were more DO’s who entered surgery this year then did both img’s And fmg’s combined despite there being far more Img’s and fmg’s in match, ohh and that not even counting those DO’s who matched in the 2019 AOA match, it’s not even close boys