Why are Family Docs underpaid given that there is an acute shortage of them?

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zut212

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Today, 70% of all MDs are specialists and the remaining 30% are PCPs. However, it should be the other way around.

Given that we have an acute shortage of PCPs and Family Docs, why are their salaries significantly lower than that of specialists?
 
Today, 70% of all MDs are specialists and the remaining 30% are PCPs. However, it should be the other way around.

Given that we have an acute shortage of PCPs and Family Docs, why are their salaries significantly lower than that of specialists?

I think the better question is, why is a pre-med spamming the allopathic forums with a ton of semi-coherent political crap?
 
I think the better question is, why is a pre-med spamming the allopathic forums with a ton of semi-coherent political crap?

Please let me know where I should post these types of questions, SoreKoozer.
 
Please let me know where I should post these types of questions, SoreKoozer.
Google would be a good start. Or use the search function. Because, you know, a million threads regarding this topic have NOT been discussed before...
 
the short answer to the question is that procedures are reimbursed higher than thinking, and family practice physicians do a lot of complex thinking but not as many procedures. also, since they act as PCPs they often manage many issues and have long conversations with complex patients, and so don't see the volume of visits per day that some specialists can.
 
Today, 70% of all MDs are specialists and the remaining 30% are PCPs. However, it should be the other way around.

Given that we have an acute shortage of PCPs and Family Docs, why are their salaries significantly lower than that of specialists?

Because reimbursement for procedures/time is essentially set by medicare, meaning traditional supply/demand principles have little to no impact on reimbursement.
 
Because reimbursement for procedures/time is essentially set by medicare, meaning traditional supply/demand principles have little to no impact on reimbursement.


Very interesting. Perhaps medicare needs to change the amounts by which docs get paid.
 
Very interesting. Perhaps medicare needs to change the amounts by which docs get paid.

right now, medicare is scheduled to have a 29% decrease in reimbursement at the end of the year. of course, they'll pass something at the last minute again to put if off another 6 weeks like they always do... but that's a whole different topic 😉.
 
Very interesting. Perhaps medicare needs to change the amounts by which docs get paid.

SDN actually has a very informative article on the RUC which essentially sets how much doctors are paid. I would really recommend reading this as it's very pertinent to all future doctors. The RUC "recommends" the amount doctors should be paid by Medicare. Insurance companies take their cue from Medicare and usually just up their payments by a certain percent.

In the next 5 years, I expect that we'll see some gradual shifts in payment. The healthcare reform bill gives the HHS some freedom to explore Medicare payments. I think the CMS will slowly start to rely less on the RUC and gradually increase primary care payments.

But that's just my guess. I certainly have no telepathic link to the mind of Kathleen Sebelius.

PS: If this thread hasn't shown you already, with the large presence of the government and insurance companies, doctors' payments aren't exactly free to follow market trends. Some doctors have bypassed government and insurance all together by doing either concierge medicine or all-access healthcare.
 
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right now, medicare is scheduled to have a 29% decrease in reimbursement at the end of the year. of course, they'll pass something at the last minute again to put if off another 6 weeks like they always do... but that's a whole different topic 😉.

Word to that. I wonder who will oppose it and who will be for it. Whoever is in power will be for it and whoever is in the minority will vociferously oppose it.

With Congress split, no one will know how to posture. :laugh:
 
the short answer to the question is that procedures are reimbursed higher than thinking, and family practice physicians do a lot of complex thinking but not as many procedures. also, since they act as PCPs they often manage many issues and have long conversations with complex patients, and so don't see the volume of visits per day that some specialists can.

Oh please, PCPs do very little complex thinking. Anyone with anything remotely resembling something more serious gets sent to specialists. I will grant you that they probably talk more to their patients and you don't get reimbursed for talking unless you're a psychiatrist.
 
It's easier to prove a procedure was done and should be reimbursed than it is to prove someone had to think long and hard about a complex issue. Even tougher is explaining why it took someone so much effort to "think through" an issue than it did to perform a physical activity. I mean really, it would be tough to argue the position that "I should get more $$$" for having to take 3x as much time to "figure out what was going on." Auto mechanics don't get paid for "figuring out the issue," but rather for the labor put into fixing it, as one example.

If our society appreciated people for "thinking" rather than "doing" we would have college football coaches making $70k/year and PhDs making the 2+million.

Just sayin'
 
Because reimbursement for procedures/time is essentially set by medicare, meaning traditional supply/demand principles have little to no impact on reimbursement.

I concur.....

However, I do expect things to turn around some over the next few yrs....especially if we get socialized medicine.

But, in that aspect, I think the Republicans will win the House this yr and the White House and Senate in 2 yrs.

Then, the Obamacare bill will be overturned and then God only knows what we will have......:shrug:
 
Oh please, PCPs do very little complex thinking. Anyone with anything remotely resembling something more serious gets sent to specialists. I will grant you that they probably talk more to their patients and you don't get reimbursed for talking unless you're a psychiatrist.

If it looks like a troll, and smells like a troll...
 
If it looks like a troll, and smells like a troll...

You're a MS2, don't talk. Wait until you go on your FM rotation in third year and you'll agree. All you actually see every day for the entire month is cold/flu, allergies, HTN, DM2, vaccinations, and social issues. Anyone with more complicated problems gets stabilized if they need to be and then gets sent to the local affiliated hospital.

Sure, there are some exceptions like vasca said but that is a very tiny minority of cases you see.
 
You're a MS2, don't talk. Wait until you go on your FM rotation in third year and you'll agree. All you actually see every day for the entire month is cold/flu, allergies, HTN, DM2, vaccinations, and social issues. Anyone with more complicated problems gets stabilized if they need to be and then gets sent to the local affiliated hospital.

Sure, there are some exceptions like vasca said but that is a very tiny minority of cases you see.

You're a medical student, don't talk. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with FM, but what you're describing isn't anywhere close to my average clinic day.

My first week in clinic, I saw 10 patients. One of them had an acute psychotic episode in the middle of the MSE. One of them had a 6x8cm abscess that needed I&Ding. One of them was there for initial OB visit. The rest were the more bread and butter cases, but almost 1/3rd of my patients having interesting stuff going on isn't too bad. Most outpatient specialties are like that.

As for sending complicated problems to the hospital after getting them stabilized, what outpatient practice doesn't do things that way?
 
So what qualifies as complex thought for you?

The general surgeon who does mostly lap gbs all day?
The ER doc who orders replacement fluids and orders CBCs for a living?
The dermatologist who treats acne all day?
The anesthesiologist with a fancy machine and a crossword?

Sure, if you think of every profession by the most common, simplest cases, then yeah, you are right.

You're also an idiot.
 
You're a medical student, don't talk. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with FM, but what you're describing isn't anywhere close to my average clinic day.

My first week in clinic, I saw 10 patients. One of them had an acute psychotic episode in the middle of the MSE. One of them had a 6x8cm abscess that needed I&Ding. One of them was there for initial OB visit. The rest were the more bread and butter cases, but almost 1/3rd of my patients having interesting stuff going on isn't too bad. Most outpatient specialties are like that.

As for sending complicated problems to the hospital after getting them stabilized, what outpatient practice doesn't do things that way?

LOL at an I&D being a complex case, LOL at initial OB visit being a complex case. The acute psychotic episode may be a complex case, but let me guess...you sent him to the psych ER/hospital after you gave him some haldol. If those are your best examples then that only proves my point.
 
LOL at an I&D being a complex case, LOL at initial OB visit being a complex case. The acute psychotic episode may be a complex case, but let me guess...you sent him to the psych ER/hospital after you gave him some haldol. If those are your best examples then that only proves my point.

Sorry, I went with stuff I found interesting. For complex, How about the HIV positive lady with HTN, DM, dyslipidemia, on HAART therapy who presents with abdominal pain? And no, my first response was not "Get a CT". Maybe the hypothyroid CAD patient with tachycardia and stone cold normal EKG (yes, I can read those)? You only think its easy because you don't know any better.

So tell me, what would an outpatient internist do in a day that would be more exciting? What would an outpatient OB do that I can't/haven't? What does a general outpatient pediatrician do that I don't?

If you dislike outpatient medicine, that's fine. Its not for everyone. However, as a medical student you have neither the experience nor the true perspective to say that what we do (outpatient generally and family medicine specifically) isn't complex.
 
Because reimbursement for procedures/time is essentially set by medicare, meaning traditional supply/demand principles have little to no impact on reimbursement.

This isn't really true at all. The fact that the government is a major insurer in the country in no way throws out the rules of supply and demand economics. The reason that reimbursements for procedures and surgeries are so high isn't because someone at the White House picked some numbers out of a hat, it's because there is a cash market for health care in this country that parallels the public and private insurance markets. The reimbursement rates from those markets therefore need to (more or less) match what the cash market is willing to pay or the doctors will go to the cash market and the insurers/politicians lose cusomers/votes.

So why doesn't this apply to Family Medicine? Because at the moment the supply of Family Medicine excedes the demand. Now that might seem crazy: we are clearly a fat, hypertensive, and diabetic nation desperately in need of more primary care. However demand isn't based on what people need, it's based on what people want. If people paid for things that they needed then you could charge thousands for a swift kick in the ass. However demand is instead based on desire, which is why there are multi-billion dollar markets for everything from cigarettes to motorcycles while smoking cessation programs and motorcycle helmets need regulations and government subsidies to sell at all. Honestly the only reason that Family Medicine Doctors are still in business is Medicare. If it were left up to the free market they'd be mostly out on the street, since people aren't willing to pay much of anything to get diseases they don't really know about prevented in some way they don't understand but which involves them doing things/taking pills that immediately decreases their quality of life. Compare that to surgery for a ruptured appendix, which involves a concrete solution for real and current pain, and maybe you'll understand the difference in price points.

To me, the solution to this problem is advertising. There are markets for people who want to invest in their security and improve their quality of life. Huge markets like insurance, self help schemes, and home security sytems. Even nonsensical markets like protective amulets. All of those markets, though, initially needed to create demand through advertising. When your product doesn't do anything immediately entertaining/life affirming you need to sell your customers the idea that they have a need before you can actually sell them a product. Medicine, however, has gotten so divorced from the idea of being an actual product that we've neglected the advertising that generates the fear that sells the service. The trick to raising Family Practicioner pay is not to haggle with the government, it's to convince everyone who tunes in from Adult Swim that they're going to live a horrible fat life and then die a horrible fat death if they don't buy what we're selling. THAT'S how you invest in the future of family practice. And the amazing thing is, it will actually be true.
 
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This isn't really true at all. The fact that the government is a major insurer in the country in no way throws out the rules of supply and demand economics. The reason that reimbursements for procedures and surgeries are so high isn't because someone at the White House picked some numbers out of a hat, it's because there is a cash market for health care in this country that parallels the public and private insurance markets. The reimbursement rates from those markets therefore need to (more or less) match what the cash market is willing to pay or the doctors will go to the cash market and the insurers/politicians lose cusomers/votes.

So why doesn't this apply to Family Medicine? Because at the moment the supply of Family Medicine excedes the demand. Now that might seem crazy: we are clearly a fat, hypertensive, and diabetic nation desperately in need of more primary care. However demand isn't based on what people need, it's based on what people want. If people paid for things that they needed then you could charge thousands for a swift kick in the ass. However demand is instead based on desire, which is why there are multi-billion dollar markets for everything from cigarettes to motorcycles while smoking cessation programs and motorcycle helmets need regulations and government subsidies to sell at all. Honestly the only reason that Family Medicine Doctors are still in business is Medicare. If it were left up to the free market they'd be mostly out on the street, since people aren't willing to pay much of anything to get diseases they don't really know about prevented in some way they don't understand but which involves them doing things/taking pills that immediately decreases their quality of life. Compare that to surgery for a ruptured appendix, which involves a concrete solution for real and current pain, and maybe you'll understand the difference in price points.

To me, the solution to this problem is advertising. There are markets for people who want to invest in their security and improve their quality of life. Huge markets like insurance, self help schemes, and home security sytems. Even nonsensical markets like protective amulets. All of those markets, though, initially needed to create demand through advertising. When your product doesn't do anything immediately entertaining/life affirming you need to sell your customers the idea that they have a need before you can actually sell them a product. Medicine, however, has gotten so divorced from the idea of being an actual product that we've neglected the advertising that generates the fear that sells the service. The trick to raising Family Practicioner pay is not to haggle with the government, it's to convince everyone who tunes in from Adult Swim that they're going to live a horrible fat life and then die a horrible fat death if they don't buy what we're selling. THAT'S how you invest in the future of family practice. And the amazing thing is, it will actually be true.
Fear is the only true answer. I learned that from Stephen Colbert.
 
So tell me, what would an outpatient internist do in a day that would be more exciting? What would an outpatient OB do that I can't/haven't? What does a general outpatient pediatrician do that I don't?

If you dislike outpatient medicine, that's fine. Its not for everyone. However, as a medical student you have neither the experience nor the true perspective to say that what we do (outpatient generally and family medicine specifically) isn't complex.

There's not a whole lot of difference with outpatient general internists or pediatricians, which is why their salary is pretty similar to FM. The difference is of course they are focused on adults or children, respectively, resulting in more experience in that area.

Outpatient obgyns do a lot of procedures that FM does not do, such as in-vitro fertilization and HSGs.

As a fourth year student, I have plenty of perspective as to what happens in outpatient clinics. I don't need 3 years of residency training to get the general gist of what is seen and done in outpatient clinics.
 
alright, this conversation is starting to getting out of hand. every specialty has its merits and detriments and people find different things rewarding. even if you don't like a specialty, remember that we're all doctors and someone's gotta do it so you don't have to.
 
This isn't really true at all. The fact that the government is a major insurer in the country in no way throws out the rules of supply and demand economics. The reason that reimbursements for procedures and surgeries are so high isn't because someone at the White House picked some numbers out of a hat, it's because there is a cash market for health care in this country that parallels the public and private insurance markets. The reimbursement rates from those markets therefore need to (more or less) match what the cash market is willing to pay or the doctors will go to the cash market and the insurers/politicians lose cusomers/votes.

So why doesn't this apply to Family Medicine? Because at the moment the supply of Family Medicine excedes the demand. Now that might seem crazy: we are clearly a fat, hypertensive, and diabetic nation desperately in need of more primary care. However demand isn't based on what people need, it's based on what people want. If people paid for things that they needed then you could charge thousands for a swift kick in the ass. However demand is instead based on desire, which is why there are multi-billion dollar markets for everything from cigarettes to motorcycles while smoking cessation programs and motorcycle helmets need regulations and government subsidies to sell at all. Honestly the only reason that Family Medicine Doctors are still in business is Medicare. If it were left up to the free market they'd be mostly out on the street, since people aren't willing to pay much of anything to get diseases they don't really know about prevented in some way they don't understand but which involves them doing things/taking pills that immediately decreases their quality of life. Compare that to surgery for a ruptured appendix, which involves a concrete solution for real and current pain, and maybe you'll understand the difference in price points.

To me, the solution to this problem is advertising. There are markets for people who want to invest in their security and improve their quality of life. Huge markets like insurance, self help schemes, and home security sytems. Even nonsensical markets like protective amulets. All of those markets, though, initially needed to create demand through advertising. When your product doesn't do anything immediately entertaining/life affirming you need to sell your customers the idea that they have a need before you can actually sell them a product. Medicine, however, has gotten so divorced from the idea of being an actual product that we've neglected the advertising that generates the fear that sells the service. The trick to raising Family Practicioner pay is not to haggle with the government, it's to convince everyone who tunes in from Adult Swim that they're going to live a horrible fat life and then die a horrible fat death if they don't buy what we're selling. THAT'S how you invest in the future of family practice. And the amazing thing is, it will actually be true.

👍

As much as I hate that it has come to this, I think you are right on with this. It bothers me to call it fear, but even if we call it education, it is the fear generated from the education that will drive the demand.
 
Outpatient obgyns do a lot of procedures that FM does not do, such as in-vitro fertilization and HSGs.

Well, highly specialized outpatient OB/gyns do IVF and HSGs. I don't think I would let a general OB/gyn do my IVF, for $10,000 a round - I would go to an REI for that.

And most general OB/gyns don't do their own HSGs, either. It's not very cost-effective to spend an afternoon in the radiology suite to do that. How many HSGs does your average generalist OB/gyn order in one day? Not enough to make it financially practical for them to do their own.

As a fourth year student, I have plenty of perspective as to what happens in outpatient clinics. I don't need 3 years of residency training to get the general gist of what is seen and done in outpatient clinics.

Well, yes and no. It's one thing to observe or even "play resident" as a med student; another when your license and your patient is at stake.

As werd said, though, different things for different people. I'm sure that there is a lot of complexity in even a normal CXR that I don't appreciate because I don't read them every day. Similarly, I think there is a lot of complexity in outpatient clinic that you don't appreciate because you don't do it every day.
 
Well, highly specialized outpatient OB/gyns do IVF and HSGs. I don't think I would let a general OB/gyn do my IVF, for $10,000 a round - I would go to an REI for that.

And most general OB/gyns don't do their own HSGs, either. It's not very cost-effective to spend an afternoon in the radiology suite to do that. How many HSGs does your average generalist OB/gyn order in one day? Not enough to make it financially practical for them to do their own.
Fair enough, the clinic where I did part of my obgyn outpatient rotation was in fact a REI clinic, which is where I saw them do IVFs and HSGs.

However, by the same reasoning that you wouldn't go to a general obgyn to do IVF when you could go to a REI clinic, would most people go to a FM to get their ob care over going to a general obgyn doc if they had a choice? I would wager the answer would be no in a vast majority of cases.

As werd said, though, different things for different people. I'm sure that there is a lot of complexity in even a normal CXR that I don't appreciate because I don't read them every day. Similarly, I think there is a lot of complexity in outpatient clinic that you don't appreciate because you don't do it every day.

That's true for any part of medicine so it's really neither here nor there. The initial debate was about complex thinking vs procedures. Well, there's complex thinking during procedures too if you really want to go down that line of thinking.
 
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However, by the same reasoning that you wouldn't go to a general obgyn to do IVF when you could go to a REI clinic, would most people go to a FM to get their ob care over going to a general obgyn doc if they had a choice? I would wager the answer would be no in a vast majority of cases.

No, the situation isn't analogous at all.

General OB/gyns do not do ANY IVF when they are residents. Yes, they will rotate through REI. Yes, they will counsel patients about IVF. But are they the ones actually setting up the treatment plan? No. Are they the ones actually performing it? No, again.

FP residents DO do a lot of pap smears as residents. They also deliver babies and have to set up the treatment plan for prenatal care. In other words, they actually get formal training in how to do so. General OB/gyns get minimal formal training on how to actually do IVF.

Comparing IVF, a highly specialized technique, to delivering a baby, something that even taxi drivers manage to do, is more than a little silly. And you might wager that no one would ever choose to go to an FP for their prenatal care, but you'd lose. Some people really like and trust their FPs, and would like that same physician that they know and trust to deliver their baby. It's pretty simple.
 
FP residents DO do a lot of pap smears as residents. They also deliver babies and have to set up the treatment plan for prenatal care. In other words, they actually get formal training in how to do so. General OB/gyns get minimal formal training on how to actually do IVF.

Comparing IVF, a highly specialized technique, to delivering a baby, something that even taxi drivers manage to do, is more than a little silly. And you might wager that no one would ever choose to go to an FP for their prenatal care, but you'd lose. Some people really like and trust their FPs, and would like that same physician that they know and trust to deliver their baby. It's pretty simple.

Yes, FM docs get some training in ob care but they don't see nearly the volume that obgyn residents do. I never said that no one would choose FP over ob, I said the vast majority wouldn't. And it really has nothing to do with trust, it's about the amount of experience and exposure to a certain area of medicine. FPs have high exposure to bread and butter diseases and I trust my FP for those type of things. However, if I have an evolving mole that is starting to ulcerate, I'm not going to see my FP over a dermatologist. Sure, FPs do see skin cancers fairly often I would think and do some biopsies, but if I'm really suspicious of a mole, I'm going to a dermatologist because they've had much more experience and higher exposure in that area of medicine, and a misdiagnosis or mismanagement could have harsh consequences. Ditto for pre-natal care. Yes, I'm sure FPs handle the majority of pregnancies without any problems but if there are complications, I would imagine that the majority of women would rather be under the care of an obgyn doctor as opposed to a FP because of the potential significant consequences of mismanagement. Again, it doesn't have anything to do with trust but just the level of experience and exposure.

Anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree since we're pretty much talking in circles.
 
Sure, FPs do see skin cancers fairly often I would think and do some biopsies, but if I'm really suspicious of a mole, I'm going to a dermatologist because they've had much more experience and higher exposure in that area of medicine, and a misdiagnosis or mismanagement could have harsh consequences.

Of course YOU are, you're a medical student. But I'd think the vast majority of people go to see their doctor when they have a medical concern, rather than jumping straight to a specialist.
 
Yes, I'm sure FPs handle the majority of pregnancies without any problems but if there are complications, I would imagine that the majority of women would rather be under the care of an obgyn doctor as opposed to a FP because of the potential significant consequences of mismanagement. Again, it doesn't have anything to do with trust but just the level of experience and exposure.

Anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree since we're pretty much talking in circles.

Of course we're talking in circles. That's because you insist on putting up your hypothetical conclusions with the reality that practicing clinicians see.
 
Yes, FM docs get some training in ob care but they don't see nearly the volume that obgyn residents do. I never said that no one would choose FP over ob, I said the vast majority wouldn't. And it really has nothing to do with trust, it's about the amount of experience and exposure to a certain area of medicine. FPs have high exposure to bread and butter diseases and I trust my FP for those type of things. However, if I have an evolving mole that is starting to ulcerate, I'm not going to see my FP over a dermatologist. Sure, FPs do see skin cancers fairly often I would think and do some biopsies, but if I'm really suspicious of a mole, I'm going to a dermatologist because they've had much more experience and higher exposure in that area of medicine, and a misdiagnosis or mismanagement could have harsh consequences. Ditto for pre-natal care. Yes, I'm sure FPs handle the majority of pregnancies without any problems but if there are complications, I would imagine that the majority of women would rather be under the care of an obgyn doctor as opposed to a FP because of the potential significant consequences of mismanagement. Again, it doesn't have anything to do with trust but just the level of experience and exposure.

Anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree since we're pretty much talking in circles.

I think I can completely remove a suspicious skin lesion pretty well. Now if we're talking some weird rash that doesn't respond to the usual therapies, that's a different story.
 
Today, 70% of all MDs are specialists and the remaining 30% are PCPs. However, it should be the other way around.

Given that we have an acute shortage of PCPs and Family Docs, why are their salaries significantly lower than that of specialists?

Because many work less hours, and ALL have less training.

Plus, they actually make a good amount of money for the number of years training. A PCP can make 180 K, where as an academic surgeon who spent NINE years of training after medical school might make 240K. So, the PCP is already 1.5 million ahead. Does not sound like a bad deal to me... only if I liked that type of work :meanie:
 
Because many work less hours, and ALL have less training.

Plus, they actually make a good amount of money for the number of years training. A PCP can make 180 K, where as an academic surgeon who spent NINE years of training after medical school might make 240K. So, the PCP is already 1.5 million ahead. Does not sound like a bad deal to me... only if I liked that type of work :meanie:

Actually someone already pointed out that PCPs only work 1 hour less per week than your average surgeon but make significantly less. 9 Years? We're not talking about orthopedic spine surgery or Reconstructive plastics here. You can easily complete a gen surgery residency in 4 or so years (some places 5 years). Anesthesia is also 4 years I believe but look at the amount they make.
 
Actually someone already pointed out that PCPs only work 1 hour less per week than your average surgeon but make significantly less.

What? this post is ridiculous beyond belief. The PCP's I'm familiar with work 3.5 days per week. Some work 4 days. Most surgeons work 5-6 days, all of which are longer days. So, your hours need to be rechecked.

9 Years? We're not talking about orthopedic spine surgery or Reconstructive plastics here. You can easily complete a gen surgery residency in 4 or so years (some places 5 years). Anesthesia is also 4 years I believe but look at the amount they make.

Actually, it impossible to become a surgeon in less than 5 years. Most general surgeons at academic centers do 7 year residencies followed by 1-2 years of fellowship. So, it is 9 years. Also, ortho spine is a total of 6 years (5 year residency followed by 1 year fellowship). You're really off with all your numbers, so check your facts before making such ridiculous statements.

I wouldn't mind all doctors making more money, but you shouldn't try to take from one specialty to give to another.
 
Family medicine isn't a specialty. In fact, the big problem we have in Canada is that family medicine became one. Prior to it being pie-in-the-sky touchy-feely SOO family medicine, it was good ol regular general practice. Anyone who finished their intern year and was licensed by the LMCC could hang a shingle and open an office, do locums, work the ER in a small town...anything, really. So that's what docs did to get some experience and pay off the debt. Lots of them liked making real money and didn't go back to do that plastics residency they were thinking about. There was no shortage of PCPs

But then some idiots with napoleon complexes got together and decided that general practice doesn't get respect. It needs to be a specialty to get respect. HA! Backfired a bit, didn't it...

Anyway, point is that medical school and a rotating one year internship should be enough to train doctors to deal with the bread and butter conditions that a family doctor deals with. Otherwise, what's the point of medical school at all if it doesn't give anyone any useful experience or information, which seems to be the case.

Due to the low pay, dead end career prospects, lack of respect, lack of any type of respect in the future, and lack of any type of meaningful pay increase, medical students should avoid primary care at all costs unless they are truly in love with the work. There are so many other specialties in medicine that offer more interesting and profitable work than FP.
 
What? this post is ridiculous beyond belief. The PCP's I'm familiar with work 3.5 days per week. Some work 4 days. Most surgeons work 5-6 days, all of which are longer days. So, your hours need to be rechecked.
Ya don't think that might have something to do with it, do ya? And is that rounding hospitalized pts then working 7-5? I'm thinking maybe people work a different number of hours per day, but that's impossible.

And why are you choosing only to consider those who practice at academic medical centers? Because if you DID do 9 years of post-grad training, and went into private practice, like the majority do (by far), you can expect to make a much higher salary.

You're numbers might be right, but you're looking at a tree and missing the forest.
 
What? this post is ridiculous beyond belief. The PCP's I'm familiar with work 3.5 days per week. Some work 4 days. Most surgeons work 5-6 days, all of which are longer days. So, your hours need to be rechecked.
You do realize that anecdotes =/= data right? Also, I don't know why you're comparing academic surgeons with PCPs...you do realize you're comparing apples to oranges there right?
 
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Family medicine isn't a specialty. In fact, the big problem we have in Canada is that family medicine became one. Prior to it being pie-in-the-sky touchy-feely SOO family medicine, it was good ol regular general practice. Anyone who finished their intern year and was licensed by the LMCC could hang a shingle and open an office, do locums, work the ER in a small town...anything, really. So that's what docs did to get some experience and pay off the debt. Lots of them liked making real money and didn't go back to do that plastics residency they were thinking about. There was no shortage of PCPs

But then some idiots with napoleon complexes got together and decided that general practice doesn't get respect. It needs to be a specialty to get respect. HA! Backfired a bit, didn't it...

Anyway, point is that medical school and a rotating one year internship should be enough to train doctors to deal with the bread and butter conditions that a family doctor deals with. Otherwise, what's the point of medical school at all if it doesn't give anyone any useful experience or information, which seems to be the case.

Due to the low pay, dead end career prospects, lack of respect, lack of any type of respect in the future, and lack of any type of meaningful pay increase, medical students should avoid primary care at all costs unless they are truly in love with the work. There are so many other specialties in medicine that offer more interesting and profitable work than FP.

I don't know where to start. First, medicine is more complex than it was 30 years ago. One year of internship is no longer enough to practice general medicine anymore. This is especially true is many of your larger academic institutions (ie. where medical schools are) have started to minimize the time spent doing outpatient medicine. Its a whole different way of thinking than inpatient.

Second, the precise reason we have a FM specialty is because it takes more than one year of internship to be able to tell the actual bread and butter from the bread and butter appearing serious conditions.

Third, respect, really? If you are good at what you do, you'll earn that respect. Every city in America has specialists that the other physicians don't trust and won't send patients to. Subspecialists appreciate a good PCP. A good FM doc knows enough to only send the truly sick patients to a specialist. Do you think the endocrinologist wants all of my hypothyroid patients? Of course not, he/she wants the ones that can't be controlled on meds/need radioactive iodine therapy. Do you think the cardiologist wants every patient with HTN, hyperlipidemia, or a-fib? Of course not, they want the CAD, HF, or pace-maker needing patients. The orthopedists certainly don't want every spained ankle or tendonitis patient nor do the neurologists want every peripheral neuropathy patient. If you're a FM physician who refers appropriately but is able to manage all but the truly specialist needing conditions, your specialists will respect you.

Maybe things are different in Canada, I don't know. Down here, good family docs generally have good relationships with their specialists. Granted we do get shat upon by other specialties residents, but that tends to change once out in the real world.
 
What? this post is ridiculous beyond belief. The PCP's I'm familiar with work 3.5 days per week. Some work 4 days. Most surgeons work 5-6 days, all of which are longer days. So, your hours need to be rechecked.


Actually, it impossible to become a surgeon in less than 5 years. Most general surgeons at academic centers do 7 year residencies followed by 1-2 years of fellowship. So, it is 9 years. Also, ortho spine is a total of 6 years (5 year residency followed by 1 year fellowship). You're really off with all your numbers, so check your facts before making such ridiculous statements.

I wouldn't mind all doctors making more money, but you shouldn't try to take from one specialty to give to another.

I don't know a single FP that works less than 4.5 days a week, most work M-F 8-5:30ish. I won't argue that lots of surgeons work more, but that's why they also make more.

Technically, if you do a fellowship, you're not a general surgeon anymore. You can still do general cases, but its not the same. Trauma fellowships lead to trauma surgeons, vascular fellowships lead to vascular surgeons and so on.
 
FP docs definitely get screwed and it sucks. But let us not forget that it's not just about "doing procedures" and not getting paid for "complex thinking." FP physicians may have a lot of responsibility with management, but they don't deal with the types of stress or risk that some of the higher paying fields deal with. And no, medicating someone's diabetes does not induce the type of stress that a complicated surgical procedure does. In other words, there's a reason why someone decided at some point to reimburse procedures highly. Granted, there are exceptions...like derm, for example. Finally, both hours worked and especially the training is often significantly longer in the higher paying fields. Those years and years of resident pay add up, and it may take a decade or more after taxes to break even with the primary care people as an attending. So yeah, I'd like to see FP guys make more dough, but not at the expense of the others.
 
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FP docs definitely get screwed and it sucks. But let us not forget that it's not just about "doing procedures" and not getting paid for "complex thinking." FP physicians may have a lot of responsibility with management, but they don't deal with the types of stress or risk that some of the higher paying fields deal with. And no, medicating someone's diabetes does not induce the type of stress that a complicated surgical procedure does.

Well, a couple of questions:

- This is assuming that all specialists are doing complicated surgical procedures. But they're not - does, say, a urologist who only does a few routine TURPs a month (that he could probably do in his sleep) still deserve to get paid more than the pediatric ICU doc who takes care of dozens of (really) sick children a month? Or the rural FP who is the only health practitioner for dozens of miles?

- If it's all about risk and stress, then why does A&I get paid so well? It's one of the lowest risk fields out there. And if we titrated salaries partly based on risk and stress, OB/gyn would be raking in the dough.

So yeah, I'd like to see FP guys make more dough, but not at the expense of the others.

Everyone says that, but does that mean that they're ok with specialists making more at the expense of FP? 😕
 
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