Why are gender ratios equal at med schools when female applicants are more qualified?

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On average men do better on the mcat compared to women. It is possible that the average is shifted up due to a higher proportion of men that are outliers on the right of the distribution(larry summers got fired from harvard for saying this). Also just looking at this data it doesnt seem like women are underrepresented in any state where the average MCAT is higher then the National Matriculant median mcat skewing their average lower as you implied. https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstablea1.pdf

The fact someone got fired for saying that shows how crazy colleges have become. Rational discussion has taken a backseat to fears of triggering a group of people.

Albiet, I don't know what exactly he said but from what you stated, it seems fairly reasonable ( not saying its wrong) and worthy of discussion.

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If the goal is neonatology, how concerned should I be about this? :pacifier::pacifier1:
1) If the potential threat of a combative patient/visitor every once in a while is a hard "no" for you, consider a different career
2) There is no guarantee that you will match into the specialty you want so your eyes should be on getting in to school first before worrying about that.
3) People tend to be pretty protective of their babies. Call me crazy, but I'm thinking it has something to do with all those billions of years of evolution.
4) Is it just me or did the number of people who want to work in NICU or around neonates explode around the time the internet came around?
 
I have a hard time believing 10% of every category that gets into med school can't graduate in 4 years.

Only possible reason I can think of for this is burn out, in which case it makes sense to select for *less* extra-curricular involvement, not more. And yes, I did just reply to myself. Deal with it.
 
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Only possible reason I can think of for this is burn out, in which case it makes sense to select for *less* extra-curricular involvement, not more. And yes, I did just reply to myself. Deal with it.
People fail classes all the time, people also have personal problems, get pregnant, loose funding etc. Med school is rough, I suppose this might be the reason schools want the highest possible stats they can reasonably get to mitigate any risk of attrition. Attrition rates at med school are usually in the 1-5% range which is pretty incredible in it self.
 
If the goal is neonatology, how concerned should I be about this? :pacifier::pacifier1:

No residency is a guarantee.
Core rotations will expose you to all kinds of things.

On average men do better on the mcat compared to women. It is possible that the average is shifted up due to a higher proportion of men that are outliers on the right of the distribution(larry summers got fired from harvard for saying this). Also just looking at this data it doesnt seem like women are underrepresented in any state where the average MCAT is higher then the National Matriculant median mcat skewing their average lower as you implied. https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstablea1.pdf

I think it's been shown that men are found at higher proportion on both extremes(very high very low). This is possibly why we see a gender skew in autism -- boys outnumbering girls 4:1 in this condition. I've heard this argument in several neuroscience courses.

Don't know why this would cost Larry Summers his job--when you take it all into context it shouldn't be a controversial statement.
 
People fail classes all the time, people also have personal problems, get pregnant, loose funding etc. Med school is rough, I suppose this might be the reason schools want the highest possible stats they can reasonably get to mitigate any risk of attrition. Attrition rates at med school are usually in the 1-5% range which is pretty incredible in it self.
The chart has 15% of the 3.8+, 520+ people, primarily at top 20s, making babies????
 
The chart has 15% of the 3.8+, 520+ people, primarily at top 20s, making babies????
I am unsure, a lot of people on the higher end do take research years. Perhaps they took leave of absence for research somewhere else or to go work on somewhere else that didnt quite trigger the definition. Or those people got recruited into other fields, changed their minds about medicine etc etc. Plus think of those babies, they are probably born with a working knowledge of calculus.
 
I honestly have no idea. This thread has spiraled out of control. I guess I'm just frustrated by the apathy toward community involvement that many pre-med males at my school possess. I was trying to gauge if this trend also exists at other schools... but I didn't do it well.
It's not fair to call institutional discrimination based on your anecdotal evidence. Anyway, even if men are less inclined to display emotional apathy, it doesn't mean they won't serve their patients to the best of their abilities.
 
It's not fair to call institutional discrimination based on your anecdotal evidence. Anyway, even if men are less inclined to display emotional apathy, it doesn't mean they won't serve their patients to the best of their abilities.

For some reason I envisioned a caveman doctor saying..I fix..
 
4) Is it just me or did the number of people who want to work in NICU or around neonates explode around the time the internet came around?

I blame Addison Montgomery. Oh the surprise people most get when they realize that neonatologists are not baby surgeons.
 
The fact someone got fired for saying that shows how crazy colleges have become. Rational discussion has taken a backseat to fears of triggering a group of people.

Albiet, I don't know what exactly he said but from what you stated, it seems fairly reasonable ( not saying its wrong) and worthy of discussion.

At the risk of getting political, I'll just say, it's great that we want to make the world more fair but we're using a lot of unfair methods, including fear mongering and shaming. We need to have thicker skin and not get upset about everything in general. Ok rant over.
 
I propose the Libertyyne rule: when responding to a comment that one feels is inaccurate, wrong, or confused, one will question the CARS/MCAT skill of said user.
I mean , in my defense OP did take a bunch of anecdotes/unstructured observations/memory recalled instances and generalize to say that an entire gender is generally more qualified for medical school compared to another.And that conclusion is almost certainly proven wrong by the data published by AAMC. I dont believe for one second that sort of reasoning will place OP in the top decile of MCAT scores, regardless of what OP says their practice scores were. But, I could be proven wrong as it is just a hypothesis.
 
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On average men do better on the mcat compared to women. It is possible that the average is shifted up due to a higher proportion of men that are outliers on the right of the distribution(larry summers got fired from harvard for saying this). Also just looking at this data it doesnt seem like women are underrepresented in any state where the average MCAT is higher then the National Matriculant median mcat skewing their average lower as you implied. https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstablea1.pdf
I was familiar with fact table 1! I stared at it a while and came away thinking there was no way to glean the info I'm curious about from it, because it double counts left and right, mixes instate with out of state, and we also can't control for number of schools applied to (maybe women apply to more, giving better odds for a borderline app). For example look at New Mexico, a nice simple case with a single very accessible public school. What's the gender split for instate applicants? Is there a difference in stats for each gender among that group? A difference in how many other schools than UNM each gender applied to? Can't answer any of these as far as I know.

The only potentially informative trend noticed was that almost all of the upper crust of private schools get more male apps (USC 53, Stanford 55, Yale 55, Chicago 54, Northwestern 53, Harvard 55, Hopkins 55, Mayo 57, Wustl 56, Duke 54, etc).

Was the Summers idea the one that variance was higher for the male curve with a similar median? Makes it even more ridiculous people reacted the way they did, since this is hardly a male-favoring theory when it means far more males at the extremely low end too.
 
I was familiar with fact table 1! I stared at it a while and came away thinking there was no way to glean the info I'm curious about from it, because it double counts left and right, mixes instate with out of state, and we also can't control for number of schools applied to (maybe women apply to more, giving better odds for a borderline app). For example look at New Mexico, a nice simple case with a single very accessible public school. What's the gender split for instate applicants? Is there a difference in stats for each gender among that group? A difference in how many other schools than UNM each gender applied to? Can't answer any of these as far as I know.
Wouldnt one expect a large difference in matriculant male vs female ratio if that is true to maintain the median MCAT scores of the schools on the coasts then?

The only potentially informative trend noticed was that almost all of the upper crust of private schools get more male apps (USC 53, Stanford 55, Yale 55, Chicago 54, Northwestern 53, Harvard 55, Hopkins 55, Mayo 57, Wustl 56, Duke 54, etc).
I dont think those percentages are off by that much considering the applicant split is 48.~ to 51. Perhaps it is a selection bias due to difference in MCAT scores?
Was the Summers idea the one that variance was higher for the male curve with a similar median? Makes it even more ridiculous people reacted the way they did, since this is hardly a male-favoring theory when it means far more males at the extremely low end too.

He did, infact he said that the female median is higher, however the SD for men is much larger, thus resulting in more representation on both the extremes. I suppose he did well after being forced to resign as the president of harvard, he went on the become a managing director of a hedge fund!
 
Keep in mind this is coming from a white male who applied MD/PhD, where it is openly acknowledged that men are at a severe disadvantage.
Did you just test out one of those new Colorado strains?

Edit: Just gotta add that this doesn't add up even by your own logic.

More qualified white/asian/wealthy applicants apply than black/hispanic/poor. Logical response: The system is stacked against blacks/hispanics/poor people.
More qualified white/male applicants apply to MD PhD than minority/female. Logical response: The system is stacked against minority/female people.
 
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Women have historically had lower stats than men per AMCAS. Maybe high achieving women are more likely to do other things with their lives or whatever. But there is zero objective data to show women are more qualified, on average, than men when applying to medical school.
 

One physician I used to work with told me stories about one of his rotations back in medical school. At one point the attending was choked out with a stethoscope. As you can imagine, neither of the physicians in this short story wear stethoscopes around their necks anymore.
 
I am unsure, a lot of people on the higher end do take research years. Perhaps they took leave of absence for research somewhere else or to go work on somewhere else that didnt quite trigger the definition. Or those people got recruited into other fields, changed their minds about medicine etc etc. Plus think of those babies, they are probably born with a working knowledge of calculus.

I just submitted my paper on this theory to the prestigious journal, "The Onion"! The indisputable evidence points to transference of psyche particles from the mother through the placenta to the developing fetal brain. This process occurs after approximately 6 weeks of gestation and continues until parturition. Of course, I must give credit to Democritus, as my work is building off of his original theories. One confounding factor is if the mother has a working knowledge of multivariable calculus, in which case the baby comes out dazed and confused, none the wiser.
 
I think you might have misread my post. You seem to think I'm playing the victim here, but I'm merely explaining why it's insane that we even humored OP in this thread, and why it's okay to accept those who are less qualified. I'm literally championing diversity and justifying why women/minorities get preference, and you're pulling the white male card on me (actually illustrating the other point I made in my post).

Let's revisit what I'm getting at. More qualified white/male applicants apply to MD/PhD programs. Logical response: The system is stacked against minority/female people.

The above checks out. It doesn't change the fact that the men are more qualified (qualifications is a separate entity from opportunity). As a corollary to this, I was saying that skewed applications typically denotes inequality. That says nothing about qualifications. It changes nothing for an individual who may or may not have those advantages/disadvantages, but falls in one group or the other regardless. I'm saying we should accept women to these programs even if they aren't as qualified and even if they had just as much opportunity as an individual, because our goal is to create a diverse class. If they have experienced inequality, and that shows in the application, that should be considered as well.

Adcoms all around the country agree with this. You can be more qualified and still be less preferable for admissions, because adcoms factor in opportunity and class diversity, as they should.
Oh I catch the problem. "More qualified males apply" reads as "a greater number of qualified males apply". I think I was supposed to read it as "males apply with better qualifications" ?

I'm still a little lost though. The system can't be stacked against minority/female and also more disadvantageous to white/male. You've said A > B and B > A in one post above, > indicating disadvantage relative to.
 
The world is stacked against minorities and females in their quest to get to the point of applying for MD/PhD programs (women mostly just don't want to do it, but that could be bias seeping in from cultural views, so we count it). The admissions process is stacked against males if you ignore part A and just look at the admissions process.
Ok I'm seeing it now. Don't have a lot of time to discuss right now but I've posted before one interesting point - our attempts to help provide a boost on the way to science careers may actually be causing a lot of interested underrepped students to switch off the path. We really need to figure out how to improve early ed way before the college and grad admissions games begin.

Also a white male scumlord btw. Sorry for the crack after your OP.
 
Aside from all the logic that's been thrown out on this thread proving that OP is largely drawing from a skewed data set and generally making no real argument, I want to point out just how ridiculous it is that our reactions are so accommodating to OP's idea.

Think about what happens when we see this in any other demographic. More qualified white/asian/wealthy applicants apply than black/hispanic/poor. Logical response: The system is stacked against blacks/hispanics/poor people. Yet when OP says, more qualified women apply than men, and implies the logical response should be to let in more women, the response on here is to try to prove OP wrong about women being more qualified than men. The response should be to tell OP that if there's a difference, it represents a disadvantage, just like in cases above. It's been well-documented that women have considerable advantages in early school settings, and that they go to college at a considerably higher rate. I'm not going to get into that in detail b/c I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I bring it up to give weight to the idea that's it is possible men are at a disadvantage in higher ed.

Reverse the situation and we'd be throwing out terms like "misogynist" and "sexist". Instead we're accommodating this idea without pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and danger in this line of thinking. Seriously, how well do you think a thread would go over saying, "Men apply to top 20 schools at a greater rate than women, why are women getting an advantage?" This thread is a good example of how we've stopped actually thinking about the social justice side of medical school admissions, and started simply assigning protected status to particular groups and worrying about offending the wrong people. This thread should've ended in the first few replies by reminding OP that skewed qualifications in the admissions process are identifiers of inequality.

That being said, the only goal of any medical school should be to create a class that will

1) Allow students the ability to seamlessly integrate into the diverse working environment you'd find at any hospital

2) Teach to identify as equal peers with people from all walks of life.

That is the med school's only responsibility. It is not a meritocracy. Keep in mind this is coming from a white male who applied MD/PhD, where it is openly acknowledged that men are at a severe disadvantage. I'm a prime example of someone who was affected considerably by this, but I'll stand by it because objectively I can't deny the value of working alongside those who are different as equals.

I really don't understand how we can continually use this argument again and again to justify the advantages certain demographics get in the admissions process while totally failing to make that connection when the demographic in question is men.

Great post, but that's the kind of thing that gets you fired for saying. People in this country are so afraid of appearing racist/sexist/xenophobic that they will literally throw out logic and reason in order to do whatever they think will make them seem "progressive" or "tolerant."
 
Great post, but that's the kind of thing that gets you fired for saying. People in this country are so afraid of appearing racist/sexist/xenophobic that they will literally throw out logic and reason in order to do whatever they think will make them seem "progressive" or "tolerant."
Logic and reason find no haven in the mind of the perpetually pseudo-victimized.
 
I honestly have no idea. This thread has spiraled out of control. I guess I'm just frustrated by the apathy toward community involvement that many pre-med males at my school possess. I was trying to gauge if this trend also exists at other schools... but I didn't do it well.
At the end of the day, do you want a doctor competent enough to think critically (MCAT) and treat you correctly, or do you want someone who is a leader and likes to be involved in the community (EC)?

Most people would say BOTH, including admissions committees --they are both important, if one is stellar it doesn't absolve the other being subpar.

And as a side note, it's generally not a good idea to make assumptions that involve stereotyping entire genders. 👍

However, good luck on your real MCAT!
 
Men score a lot higher in the MCAT..... Women matriculate with a lower average MCAT actually.
 
Based on your opinion more women are qualified and should make up a higher % of matriculants, you must be 100% against affirmative action without being a hypocrite.
Racist.

What was the comment before this was edited by a mod?
 
Isn't the point of SDN to be an open forum for conversation, even if that conversation is 2 years old? If we don't want a bump, why not close the conversation? I've never understood why people are so averse to bumping old threads. Is it really that devastatingly painful that a 2yo thread gets bumped by one reply? Honestly, who is the victim here?

I'm not opposed to bumping old threads, even a decade old thread. i prefer it sometimes so we don't have a dozen tiny threads on the same topic instead of one large consolidated one.

It's just that some people bump topics that tend to devolve into dumpster fires, often knowingly.

If people can have a mature professional discussion on this, I'm happy to be proven wrong.
 
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